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Battle Server Support

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I agree with you, Anti, but I don't think there's anything viable that can be done in regards to allowing mature content in the main lobby. This is the PC Battle Server, and while it may not be directly connected with the forum, it is still associated with PC and its staff. The battle server may have gotten away with allowing mature content in the past, but higher staff eventually found out and are now taking action. I could convince the higher staff to allow vulgar, overly sexual content (to little or no success), but nothing of much value will come out of it. I like being sexually explicit from time to time as much you guys, but I don't think it's worth going through the trouble of allowing it, especially when we have a perfectly fine channel for everyone to go crazy in. There are regulars who don't like discussing or mentioning mature content, and there are those that do. We can't please everyone.

As for the issue with using one chat for both non-battlers and battlers, perhaps we could try making a separate channel with a focus on battling and whatnot. It's essentially the same as using different servers, but we don't have go through the trouble of having to host two servers at once. While I have been more concerned with utilizing the forum instead of a server as a way for establishing an active battle community, I don't see the harm in trying out the channel. However, just like a separate server, it will require some dedication from some members to make it work. Otherwise, it would still be difficult finding a battle.
 
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Anti

return of the king
10,818
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I appreciate that you're taking my concern into account but I must object to the idea that the channel is going to solve the problem I'm pinpointing. No auto-join sucks too, though it's not a big deal.

I think that really there is importance in symbolism in a forum having its own physically separate space. We're just not the same community. Is having a separate server really too much to ask? Maybe it is for practical tech reasons--if someone could speak to that, that would be wonderful--but I feel like having a server to call our own actually matters. I just can't get past the fact that the so-called Battle Server would need a channel for the sake of...battling. Shouldn't the Battle Server be for battling? The battling community? I feel like that's just kinda weird. Not saying that the current server shouldn't exist or something but my my the Battle Server is quite the misnomer. Our gathering space is just some minor part of something else in the case of a channel. Something just feels off about that.

On a more practical note (and the one of real magnitude), the staff would still be the same in a channel. How many of the current staff members are even half as qualified to operate an actual battling server as D_A and I are? How many of them have played an actual competitive battle in the past month? (RANDBATS DOES NOT COUNT.) I also suspect that rules and especially their enforcement would be way different (read: more lax [+def, -sdef]) which is pretty awkward. And the culture of the server? I don't think I even need to say what would be different, lol.

I mean, if a channel is the best we can do, fine. I'm not going to turn down what is admittedly an improvement (as if I have the sole authority to). But I think it's a little naive to think that having a separate channel serves to differentiate the way I'm talking about. Unless there is indeed a practical barrier I see no reason not to just separate them.

...And while I haven't talked to D_A or anyone else about it, yes, I'd be willing to do the little moderation required if you wouldn't want to juggle two servers. And I realize that the battle server would run into an old S&M problem--inactivity--quite quickly, but I'm willing to build it up over time...by myself, if I have to. I die inside every time I come on the current server and seeing its role in the old S&M community's complete evisceration. I am willing to do quite a lot to reverse that. Because right now I feel like I wasted years trying to improve the battling community seeing as it does not have somewhere where it can effectively exist. On that note...

Blubberchomp said:
I have been more concerned with utilizing the forum instead of a server as a way for establishing an active battle community

Okay, but it's not 2007 anymore: the battling community needs a place for battling and communal bonding. And as much as I loved 2007, PC got infinitely better when it was supplemented by a Shoddy server. So yeah, I'm all for utilizing the forum (as you know haha), but a server still has to exist.
 

Dark Azelf

☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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Just saying i post to agree with anti. Id be willing to help out also.

Also i dislike having to go to another channel/other server.

Maybe im missing something, but why cant the pre teens, tweens etc go to another channel instead of the people who actually battle (see: myself etc) ? The main channel should be for battling and regulars (with which of whom i still havent met one person who wants this rule implemented). If you wanna do some competitive color comparing or professional whining about how oblivious to the far worse content on the internet, like anti said "which is just a few clicks away" or "at your school heard every day in the playground" and how sensitive you are then go to that channel ? Explicit chat doesnt even happen much really lol.

As for the other server, like i said, none of our regulars like the rule. I am under the impression the people who whined to h staff werent even regulars and didnt/dont even battle (please by all means if you are a reg and disagree, post, because currently there is no evidence for this). Sorry, but why should they matter on a battling server ? You already have another server where you can be PG all you like, its called IRC. Use it. I just dont see why we have to pander and cater to some randoms and people who dont battle and come on all of two times anyway, we have the server to be laid back on and that is it.

I know the concern is about harming activity, but this rule is actually harming it and not the oh so explicit chat (which doesnt even happen often, color whining happens more lol). Old school people wont stick around. Infact a few have openly said they will leave if "this stupid rule is gonna stay".

My last point (not naming names) but someone who naively and obnoxiously said, "Does it matter if a few oldies leave if we get double the amount of new people to replace you?". Judging the way the battling community is at the present, i believe you NEED all the help you can get from vets to actually you know, integrate new people into the battling community. Without us (it may be a little selfish and un modest of me) but it will be like the blind leading the blind because no one battles competitively as it is bar certain vets. (Random battles dont count sorry).

Just my thoughts on the matter.


EDIT: Higher staff have always known about how we are so its silly to say this. PPN, BGT, Luke etc have all been and gone on our various servers and have NEVER cared and you know have actually done something for the community battling wise.
 
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Cordelia

Banned
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Honestly, due to this new rule, I'll probably be on the server now. :) It is fun and I already played a random battle and won (surprisingly).
 

Nihilego

[color=#95b4d4]ユービーゼロイチ パラサイト[/color]
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Okay, I'm a... somewhat regular so I think I can chip in here with the points of view of both the server regulars and the higher staff in mind.

I totally get what you're unhappy about, honestly. Of course it sucks pretty big-time when you've built up a community with its own general way of doing things and culture and a load of people come in all "NO THIS IS TERRIBLE CHANGE EVERYTHING AT ONCE". I'll agree fully that it's a real slap in the face for everything you've gone by for the past however many months it may be and it's obvious to me that some toes have been stepped on here. It's a rule I almost wish wasn't in place since I like a dirty joke or whatever as much as the next person.

However, as much as you guys don't like the rule (and as much as I hate coming across as a total tight-arse and a killjoy), as the server becomes a more integral part of PC it follows that the server's rules will need to come more in line with those on PC. Higher staff have recently become more aware of the fact that the server is indeed moving into a closer relationship with PC - exemplified by things like integrated links into newer styles and forum-wide admin-set announcements regarding BC's community days. Undoubtedly, in upcoming Get-Togethers, the server is going to have its own events going on and I personally think it's awesome that the server is having this involvement with PC. For me, something that helps promote activity anywhere is no bad thing. However, with more people from around the forum and whatnot coming in, as I say, we have to be more in-line with PC rules. And that means that discussion of things which wouldn't fly on PC, doesn't fly on the server.

Now - if people are getting muted/kicked for things as simple as mentioning relationships or sex or whatever, then that's something I'm not okay with and I feel is way too tight. Like, that shouldn't be happening imo at all. If we can allow threads like this, as a recent example, on the public forums then we can allow it on the server so if someone could provide me of examples where kicks or mutes have gone on for that kind of (honestly, rather mild) thing then I can look more into that and see if it can be changed because I feel it's excessive. However, I've also seen some stuff on the server which wouldn't be okay; stuff like incest, rape, deviance, things like that. That'd not be alright on here and in my eyes it's not alright on the server.

It does sound like people may have gone a wee bit overboard with enforcing these new rules and hopefully in time that'll even out but otherwise, yeah, we need the rule if we're opening up so much to the entirety of PokéCommunity. As this place becomes more public, more members who are not part of the general server culture which has been established will be joining. And those members will see stuff like this almost certainly very differently to how you guys might be seeing it.

I guess I wanted to post all that just to say that, while I understand the frustration here, it's a rule which'll be needed as PC becomes more entwined with the server (the alternative, which I don't think would be a great idea, being that the server dissociates from PC to keep its less PC-esque atmosphere) and I feel it's something which can be worked with. But it needs fine-tuning to ensure that it isn't over-enforced.
 

Dark Azelf

☽𖤐☾𓃶𐕣
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Now - if people are getting muted/kicked for things as simple as mentioning relationships or sex or whatever, then that's something I'm not okay with and I feel is way too tight.

This is one of the biggest problems actually, thankyou for bringing it up. I got muted simply because i mentioned a sex toy in a joking matter yesterday with the reason "Sorry i have to now". :/
 

Anti

return of the king
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I'm not actually going to take issue with anything you said but rather take issue with a phenomenon you refer to in the post.

And that is basically the integration into PC. In principle, I agree that anything that increases activity is okay. But all of the people who have been brought in don't battle; they joined our community and then didn't participate in the activity that defines it. Naturally, this has diluted the server to the point that it should definitely be associated with PC but should definitely not be associated with Strategies and Movesets. I think most people just think that the PG13 rule is overbearing, but I find it troubling as a microcosm of the end of our battling community. I am absolutely appalled that my forum and community has been tossed aside as if it simply doesn't matter because, hey, it's active now so to hell with the battlers let's just chug ahead! ...Even though all that activity consists of is whining about username colors. At least for me. I know that appeals to some people but that is NOT what S&M is about. This situation is not workable for a functional battling community and something needs to be done about it.

The rule itself is frankly of little concern to me and frankly the "mature content" usually makes the chat worse. I didn't even know that was possible but it is.

And those members will see stuff like this almost certainly very differently to how you guys might be seeing it.

This is probably indicative of the "there are two different communities and them coexisting isn't good for either of them" thing. Even though one is on the verge of collapsing, but whatever.
 

Anti

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I'd also like to point out that while people are bringing up the whole "the topic consists of people whining abut username colors", that (at least in my presence), the topic is actually not that common, at least not as often as people think it is. Does it happen to a point where it's noticeable? Perhaps. However, is it a groundbreaking situation that needs to be dealt with? Not really (at least, not in my perspective).

In my experience the topic has come up daily. I am not very active on the server either. In any event, it's not a groundbreaking situation, yes, but it definitely is a microcosm of...

And usually when it is, it's a topic that goes away fairly easily. I don't see what the problem is bringing up a separate topic to talk about. I just kind of have a problem with this implication that our community is now basically this mix of immature, whiny, color-obsessed children that de-face what S&M "used to be", etc.

...that last sentence. Except I don't have a problem with it at all--I am the person who most often brings it up with the very implication you are taking issue with. The server is a community but it's definitely not a community of S&M. The colors thing is merely a rhetorical tool to illustrate this, and I don't feel guilty at all about using it. It's ridiculous to me that so many trivial things are discussed so frequently--it's no wonder people talk about sex all the time--and there is no substantive appeal to the server whose existence derives from substance. Anyway, like I said, it's not bad itself, it's just a "hey this sort of sums up my point nicely" sort of thing (aka a microcosm of drifting away from the battling community blah blah blah).

Now, I apologize if I'm reading into things too much, or if I'm misinterpreting, but realize that our regulars go to the server for more chatting than battling.

Seeing as it's a server supposedly based in BATTLE Center (or at least the server that supposedly fills its needs) I don't think it's unreasonable at all to find this profoundly troubling. And nah your interpretation was pretty much right on.

That's not to say that they don't battle, they do, it's just significantly less often.

Which is to say "so infrequently that saying they battle is basically a farce." And again, RandBats don't count, seeing as it's nothing more than a whimsical exercise in randomness. I suspect that at this point my dismissive tone is starting to become bothersome, but I'd really just prefer if we all at least owned up to the reality instead of pretending like the battling community is ever going to recover if the server remains the way it is now. Because right now Smogon has more PC battlers than PC does. Hopefully you can at least understand the source of my extreme frustration even if you cannot entirely empathize with it.

I get that it's annoying hearing "your way of enjoying PC is wrong" because that's currently happening with the sex thing on a smaller/more trivial scale but it's not so much that your way is wrong...it's more that your way doesn't represent S&M and its manifestation (the server) should by extension probably not be where the battling community goes. In other words, it's not right/wrong, it's that the battlers' server has been semi-hijacked and now they're screwed and the organization of the forum and its relation to the server is all a big mess.

Heck, I rarely battle myself. Yes, I take responsibility in that, and that I've not really a huge battler like I used to be. I hope to someday make a team eventually, but I just haven't really got around to that yet.

I just hope you don't run off to Smogon when you realize no one is really left who you could use your team against.

Regardless, our community is what it is, and I don't see what can be done to really change that unless we get our regulars into battling again. It seems that, in every Commday that I've participated in, our regulars do seem genuinely interested in battles. What makes battles take so long isn't so much the disinterest: It's the inactivity. People aren't active, don't come on in time to complete their matches, and that creates boredom and disinterest.

We shouldn't have to have an event to make people care about battling in the competitive battling section of PC. The people you speak of are interested in battling the way I am interested in football. I watch a game or two and generally know who is good and whatnot, but I would be absolutely out of place on, say, a football discussion forum since I'm not really into it enough and lack the knowledge...and the willpower to gain it. There's a big difference. It's not that there's anything wrong with that, but again, we shouldn't be pretending that these sorts of people are going to eventually make us active...because then we're perpetuating the same lie that we have been for years.

anyway just to repeat my push: S&M has its own separate server where people can go if they actually want to battle, and if they don't they can stay with the community you speak of which is unquestionably growing and thriving. Then everyone wins.

(I realize I'm attempting to hijack the PG13 discussion. But the demise of this forum's community is a maaaajor problem at this point and imo it starts with the evolution of the server soooo)
 

Fire Flyy

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i'm sorry but this whole discussion is pretty hilarious, i'm aware that pc's generally a safer place on the internet for a 11-14 y/o kid than most forums and i agree the innuendo is kind of stupid when it displaces battling entirely, but the fact that people are trying to censor that as if one of the new users [apparently a lot of them participate anyways] don't know what sex is or are getting emotionally scarred by the discussion. still it's a shame that a forum rebellion has incited from this whole incident and that people are legitimately furious like john c. calhoun circa 1849.

And usually when it is, it's a topic that goes away fairly easily. I don't see what the problem is bringing up a separate topic to talk about. I just kind of have a problem with this implication that our community is now basically this mix of immature, whiny, color-obsessed children that de-face what S&M "used to be", etc.

So yeah this basically sums up my thoughts about what's going on, it seems like there's some sort of pride in not conforming to the smogon metagames like ou and playing like pu lc triple randbats valentines style now, i mean i dont think anyone ladders at all, most battling communities developed from a community of people actually battling and actively trying to get better on the ladders, pc's is really now just a remnant of what used to be with a bunch of kids sitting on the server, i realize this is extremely pessimistic and critical but it's basically the truth. there's a point where you have to decide if youre all actually a battling community or just a glorified social irc using a pokemon sim to chat on

o well :/
 
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Jake♫

► My Happy Little Pill 
2,941
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15
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I'm pretty much ignoring the whole appropriateness discussion now because what's been said from multiple people regarding it becoming more relaxed has already been stated =P

As much as this whole situation sucks, creating another server for us that actually want to discuss battling/actually battle seems like the best solution right now. Trying to force the entire server to change/force them out because they don't want to battle isn't the smartest thing. The server itself is more active that it has ever been, so trying to force a change that the majority of people there don't want isn't going to end well. Yes, it's a shame honestly, but it's the best course of action. If we can't do it, and we're stuck just creating another lobby on the server, I'd at least support giving Anti some sort of authority on the server. If he's going to be the one facilitating this, he can't really do that well from a position of non-auth.

As far as people being concerned about it's activity, it's the same thing as when the Shoddy server got started: bringing it from the ground up. Obviously it wouldn't have PC as a platform to advertise it, but that doesn't mean we can't draw people who actually want to learn and discuss battling over to try and help them. I mean we have myself, Elf, Anti, Aero, Pokedra, Nica, and maybe a few others (didn't include you Karp because you're pretty much never on =P). That's at least a decent basis for it. Plus out of everyone we're pretty likely to be the most helpful when it comes to actually helping new members out.

Which leads me to my next point that's been brought up: the environment and attitude of what the new server would be. There's been concern over this new server becoming what S&M's environment was back in 2007/2008: a flamefest and a craphole. I'm pretty sure I can speak for everyone that would want to be involved with this would never want to let this happen. That environment doesn't foster a good community (while it may have been active then, it was extremely low quality), especially for what we're going for. None of us degrade people for trying to learn and not being the best at battling either. If anyone, if someone is actually interested and one of us is around, all we want to do is facilitate it because we want people to battle. Pretty much I see the environment of this being laid back like the late Shoddy/PO days were, not some 2007 craphole.

I guess I don't see why people are against it. The main server stays, a new one that isn't directly affiliated with PC is created for those who want to battle, which has a relaxed environment. It's pretty much a win-win for everyone, as no one is having change shoved down their throat for something that they don't have any interest it.
 

Anti

return of the king
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long post im proud of you son

I don't know if you're disagreeing with my proposal or misunderstanding it in this way: I definitely want it to be affiliated with PC. Just like the old one was. It should be linked to in the S&M main forum so that new users and randoms at least know where our battlers are, while the current server can be linked to...somewhere else. Or alternatively link to both with the current one being "PC Chatroom" or something and the new one being "PC Battle Server." We need PC so that the server can grow since yeah, I do anticipate that it would be a little bit starved for activity at first. Not something we can't handle (also my impression is that our battling regs are actually motivated unlike uhhh the last half of my here here before leaving lol) but we can't just expect people to find such a server if it were basically "underground" which is weird for me to think of.

(I also hate the idea that the battling community has become so marginal that it would resort to lack of affiliation just to have a place to gather...I mean that's kinda sad when you think about it.)

And just for clarification (since this did "come out of" the pg13 thing even if I mostly used it as a pretense to whine about the current state of the server lol) we would indeed be more laid back about all that though I do want to mirror what Wolf said on the server which was basically that Mature Room is the Immature Room. If we're going to have a server that is more substance-driven, some of the more out there stuff I would expect to be supplanted by, well, substance, as sex tends to drive down the quality of the chat. I think I'm still scarred from my last year on PO.

It won't be a flamefest. That hasn't really been a problem in a few years now and it's time to move on. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the rougher S&M culture returning though as long as the foundation of respect is there...it was honestly more fun that way and people who can't deal with some light jabs at one another probably aren't cut out for competitive battling anyway.

...If we even get a server.

So yeah this basically sums up my thoughts about what's going on, it seems like there's some sort of pride in not conforming to the smogon metagames like ou and playing like pu lc triple randbats valentines style now, i mean i dont think anyone ladders at all, most battling communities developed from a community of people actually battling and actively trying to get better on the ladders, pc's is really now just a remnant of what used to be with a bunch of kids sitting on the server, i realize this is extremely pessimistic and critical but it's basically the truth. there's a point where you have to decide if youre all actually a battling community or just a glorified social irc using a pokemon sim to chat on

I suspect that we would play Smogon metagames on a new server since everyone likes UU and a different metagame is impractical due to a small playerbase and no laddering potential. (I know you weren't addressing what I'm speaking to but I'm just using what you said to bring that up.) Also just going to say that your last sentence is pretty much right on.

Wolf said:
Just do it. I am not stopping it.

Definitely read my bit about the affiliation above. Curious where you stand on that (in favor of/opposed/"wait and see"/other)

Also it would be magnificent if we got a stable host for the server as the current one has now...
 
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Uh, I'll just rename this server to "(pseudo-official) PC Chat v.2". But then, what's the point in keeping it if it just exists to take away activity from the PC Chat, ya?

I can ask Steve if he's interested in hosting another server.
 

Sirfetch’d

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Even if we get another server that is more for the community that would rather battle I, and I am sure the other mods feel the same way, think that our server should stay as well. Yes I know to some it seems pointless to have a separate server just for chatting, but the server has become a part of us and I know that everyone would be sad to see it go. I don't personally see the harm in letting it stay.
 

Anti

return of the king
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You do realize that in order to this to fully be successful, that the current server would have to essentially replace the IRC, something that Steve himself voiced opposition against? PC having three different chatrooms is definitely going to be quite a messy way to go about with things, just saying. And having /another/ battle server endorsed by PC? It's definitely going to be quite hectic, especially when h-staff have to deal with watching over this server, that means they're going to have another server to watch on their shoulders. I'll let them speak for themselves on that matter, but in my opinion, I don't think they'd be too comfortable with that.

With all due respect, I don't really care about the hstaff burden, especially one that is...well, entirely speculative. They can speak for themselves. Also, hstaff having "another server watch on their shoulders" would be entirely up to them--every previous iteration of the battle server was entirely ignored by hstaff...even Luke and BeachBoy were rather absent. This was a winning formula in the past and I don't see any need to change it. It's you guys who are going to have the active server with mass appeal (aka "needing" more hstaff oversight), not us. But I frankly have neither the time nor the desire to pander to PC's hstaff here. I've been witnessing the disintegration of the battling community I helped to build and maintain for half a decade and I'm going to do what I can to reverse its impending demise, and if higher staff wants to block the new server then they can go ahead and do that as I suppose they have the right to but until then I think we should be considering the best interests of the battling community (without throwing the thriving community on the current server under the bus, for sure) instead of whether hstaff may or may not be overburdened by lurking a server with six active users.
 

Anti

return of the king
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"Gee, I really wonder what's going to build a stable community..."

I noticed that every single person that has offered an argument for this server has neglected to provide an argument as to how it would not take activity from the current one. Especially Aero's post in which (no offense Aero), it was just "oh it shouldn't affect the server".

Key word being shouldn't. I remember buying lottery tickets every now and then and I keep losing money instead of winning. That kind of thing shouldn't happen, but it did. That kind of made me upset, just saying.

But that's not the point.

Because the current server is not my concern. How about you provide an argument for why it's fair to the battling community to have to go to a server where the battlers are the minority. I think that's much more compelling seeing as the purpose of the server is supposed to serve the S&M community.

Anyway, I don't think it would much. Who of the server regulars actually wants to battle the way we're speaking of? Let's see, D_A and myself, Pokedra, Jake, Aero, Nica...and that's it. I don't really identify with your community at all and I don't know if Pokedra does either, but otherwise it's not like those others are going to just disappear. You're going to lose a few people tops, and it's not like you can't just go onto both servers if you want.

As long as I've been involved in the battling community of PC (which is for quite a while), I've noticed a plethora of issues regarding the structure of this server. You say it'll only have "six users", which I'm not sure is a metaphor to illustrate your point or whether it's a direct contradiction to Jake's point on building an entire battle community from the ground up. Last time I checked, a community was more than just six users (at least the one you and the others are hoping for). Now let me paint why exactly why I'm not totally on board with this.

I was pointing out that we basically have to build it from the ground up since battlers' numbers have dwindled so much. ...Did you actually think my ideal community was six people? ._.

I remember voicing my opposition in the Server Staff Chat. Jake argued over and over that no one would be shoved aside, no one would be isolated, that kind of stuff. But surprise! What do I see?

"It should be linked to in the S&M main forum so that new users and randoms at least know where our battlers are, while the current server can be linked to...somewhere else."

You're essentially kicking out the current server in place of the new one. Pray tell, do you have any answers as to what's going to happen to the current server afterwards, or do you plan to stop caring about it altogether? With all due respect, I find that absolutely ludicrous. Sure, our community isn't the best community out there, our community isn't a total representation of what should be S&M, I totally get that, but where in the honest heck do you guys expect to get your users from if this server is affiliated with PC? Our server? You do realize we have to host commdays and whatnot too, and have to advertise around PC just as much as you guys do, right? That's the kind of thing that would happen if this "new server" was affiliated with PC. If you ever expect to "build" a community, whether competitive or not, you're going to have to get the word out about it, somehow, instead of just sitting there, waiting for it to happen.

The main forum exists. People who show up in Battle Center because they actually care about battling will be linked to the Battle Server. That's how people always used to find out about the server and frequent it. I don't really see the problem there. Anyway, I don't really see the need to advertise around PC much. I don't have any interest in forcing battling on people. If they want to, they can, and if they don't, they shouldn't. While I plan on building the community, the first step is having one at all and currently we do not because the institution is not in place for it to function.

Which....let me go back to the first point I was making. Why is it that I said that? Is it because our current community is unstable? No. Not really. Actually, I find this kind of ridiculous in a more amusing fashion, and I'm going to explain why right now:

I remember back about a few years back, when all of us tried to rely on Vrai to being back activity to CBC/BC/S&M. We were pretty much lost out of all options, and I remember the what, 10 or so "Get to work guys, and lets make S&M what it used to be!" threads that kept being made, all hoping for a community, all hoping for something to be made. We didn't care what kind of community it was, casual or competitive, as long as we had one and (C)BC flourished with activity.

Yeah, casual or competitive...battling. Casually playing competitive battling is a thing. That's what I did for three years. But for either casual or competitive, battling follows. Really, competitive battling (even if done casually) follows. That's what this forum is. So yeah, we didn't care, but there was sort of an expectation that people would, uh, battle. Which gets back to what Karpman said. I don't deny that y'all have a nice community but it's not an S&M community as you said yourself. If we just wanted any community we all would have run off to ROM hacking or something.

Well, you guys got what you asked for. It might not be activity on the forum, but it's activity on the server. And now that you guys aren't happy with the current community, you seek to establish another one. May I remind you how long it took to even get something remotely like this community to spring up? I'm pretty damn sure this community didn't grow overnight; some people came because of advertisements, some people came because Commday events, some people because our server had a lax environment like that.

"Activity." People chat. Usually about not a lot. Which is fine, that's a community that has found its own groove. Just don't pretend like it's activity the way we conceived it in S&M. We always used to complain about activity when we had an active chat. This is more nuanced than your descriptions suggests. So may I remind you that just because a community exists doesn't mean that it's anything like what a battling forum needs to actually engage in the activity of battling. I think I'm pretty aware of the hardship seeing as dealing with it was my job for three years. I get that you're playing up the "you got what you asked for and you're still not happy" angle but we didn't get what we asked for because the current server is NOT a battling community.

If this was a case of not affiliating it with PC, I couldn't care less about what you guys do with it, but then again, you would be in a hole as far as advertising it. Again, you'd have to get your users somehow, and if it isn't affiliated with PC, then you're quite stuck as far as where to get them from, because advertising it on other servers is pretty much out of the question, god knows how many spammers have tried to do that, already.

I'll discuss this issue later in the post.

I remember when I told Jake that I had a gut feeling something bad was going to happen. And here it is, right in front of my face. I guess I made the right decision in trusting in that gut feeling for the aforementioned reasons, and also this:

"Also, hstaff having "another server watch on their shoulders" would be entirely up to them--every previous iteration of the battle server was entirely ignored by hstaff...even Luke and BeachBoy were rather absent."

What happened back then has very little to do with what happened now. We have a different h-staff, and they seem to care about the ongoings of the server. If they care about the ongoing of the new battle server, then so be it. If you're going to be advertising this new server, they might as well check out what it's about and watch over that too. Just my two cents and observations from what has happened so far.

You keep speaking for hstaff as if you know what they're thinking, lol. What I gather from what RazorLeaf and TB said is that they took interest because the server has become more universal and more a part of PC as a whole, something that definitely doesn't apply to competitive Pokemon. So I don't see it being a problem and I think it's silly to assume so until we actually know that.

"I've been witnessing the disintegration of the battling community I helped to build and maintain for half a decade and I'm going to do what I can to reverse its impending demise"

By causing the demise of this server? You do realize that's an incredibly counterproductive way to go about with things, right? Of course, all of this is assuming you still have plans to affiliate with PC. Since the current server is already affiliated with PC, it'll carry a very messy state of affairs that I'm sure no one would want to get involved with.

You keep saying it would cause a mess. Um, how is battlers being a minority on what is supposedly their own server (no one even acts like this is true anymore it's gotten so bad) NOT a mess? And I would personally love that messy state of affairs as I have no evidence that suggests it would be messy to begin with besides a whopping two servers instead of one...? For two different communities? Isn't that organization, not a mess? Why can't there be two servers affiliated with PC? Is there some rule against this that was written in a tomb somewhere?

And how exactly is this going to create the demise of the current server? You can't just pass that assumption off as if it's true. Look at who frequents your server and tell me who exactly is going to bolt to go play competitively, because most people (including you) seem quite content with not battling at all and us breaking off will just spare you the "lol no one battles" talk, which right now is pretty well deserved.

"I think we should be considering the best interests of the battling community (without throwing the thriving community on the current server under the bus, for sure)"

But that's pretty much...essentially what you're doing by creating a separate server affiliated with PC. Heck, you've even said this nifty paragraph yourself:

"And just for clarification (since this did "come out of" the pg13 thing even if I mostly used it as a pretense to whine about the current state of the server lol) we would indeed be more laid back about all that though I do want to mirror what Wolf said on the server which was basically that Mature Room is the Immature Room. If we're going to have a server that is more substance-driven, some of the more out there stuff I would expect to be supplanted by, well, substance, as sex tends to drive down the quality of the chat. I think I'm still scarred from my last year on PO."

Do you know what else has a mature room? Do you know what else has PG-13 rules? Oh right, the current server does. So you're essentially creating a carbon copy of the server, except you're isolating the casual battlers from the competitive ones. I don't see that as being too fair as we're supposed to be (as Jake has been saying in the chat) flexible community-wise, but each to their own, I suppose, if that's something you're really going for.

No, we're isolating the non-battlers from the battlers. Playing randbats or battling once a month isn't casual battling, it's just not battling, for all intents and purposes. So it's not really a carbon copy at all since the battling community at PC has always been culturally different than the rest of the forum and saying that it would be a copy because the current server has a mature room is laughable. The fact that there has to be a mature room at all is the kind of thing the illuminates the differences I speak of...seeing as we wouldn't have pg13 rules except disallowing things like the hentai channel which is more like rated x rules lol.

Ultimately, my opinion has come to this: If you guys decide for this server not to affiliate with PC, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, since apparently it's otherwise, it's causing a whole mess of issues that honestly shouldn't happen in the first place. You say yourself that it's not meant to throw the current server under the bus, but when you're tossing it aside just to say "well.. it can go..somewhere" it really implies otherwise.

Now, are we an excellent representation of what S&M should be? Not really, and I'll fully agree with you on that on every scale. However, we are a community, and I don't think anything should happen to at least tear that apart, which is what creating a new battle server would do.

If the server being advertised elsewhere is throwing it under the bus then I need to revise my idiomatic dictionary. Also, I'm just going to point out that this server has effectively thrown the battling community under the bus and no one has really cared. I have no intention of destroying your community in return--hypocrisy aint cool yo. But um, this server was created to cater to the battling community. So it's screwing the battling community. And your response is "but it's a community!" Yeah, but it's a community operating under a false pretense...except now it only barely pretends so we might as well just make it official, right?

Also, I'll answer to the bolding part when you explain why that's actually the case because I honestly have no idea.

In case that wasn't clear, I'll just sum it up here:

  • The new battle server is created. You and whoever else regulars that chat is going to frequent it, and I assume is going to immediately start building it from the ground up.
  • In the process of building it from the ground up, as I mentioned, you're going to have to start somewhere. This means getting the word out on PC (since the server would be supported by PC). Now, with the current server already advertising, it would make for a very confused mess because the users won't know exactly which chat to frequent.
  • This also goes upon my previous post of Steve disagreeing with allowing the current server to replace the IRC. Three chats is honestly way too much, you're going to have to get rid of one because these three chats all serve the same purpose, except two of them are for battling, and one of them is "more serious" about it. That's really all the differences that I can see.
  • With that being said, it'll just have to be decided whether to keep the current server to demolish in favor of the new one. Since all I see changing is you becoming auth and the server being more "serious" and kicking out causal batters (which I oppose), I really do not think it's worth it.
  • If you're really that determined to bring about such interest within competitive, then I just highly suggest you do it with the current server. I don't blame you if you just lost all hope or whatever, heck I don't battle myself. But I would if I had motivation, I would if there was something to make me battle again, but I also want a COMMUNITY for casual chat. I think it's going to get stale if all the topic is going to be about is "oh x pokemon is x weak" all the time. I like to mix it up between competitive talk and casual talk. Though that's just me, personally.

I really hope you'll see where I'm coming from when I bring all of these issues up. Of course, this is all assuming it'll be in direct affiliation with PC as you've stated.

@second bullet: Advertise one as a chatroom and one as a server for casual and competitive players of competitive Pokemon. Even though I don't see the point in advertising a battle server across PC when everyone knows S&M exists...people who are interested would have joined by now, don't you think? (And for all the new users that have come to the current server, it's funny how noncommittal everything is about battling...even though it's supposedly a battling server...)

@third bullet: Please stop pretending like the current server is for battling. That ship has sailed.

@fourth: Why can't they just coexist, again?

@fifth: Do we have to try the same strategy that hasn't ever worked? "I'm not motivated." Maybe that means you're just not that interested then? Like, that's fine, you don't have to like battling lol, but pretending like the demotivated will suddenly reverse themselves...yeah, I'm not really into that. Basically what Jake said earlier. At this point, it's a glorified social IRC, which again is fine, but the actual battlers shouldn't have the burden of existing within it as a freaking minority in "their own" (lol) community. The fact that no one even pretends anymore that this is an S&M community is probably a sign that the actual S&M community have its own community gathering space.


Just one last thought...

It seems like this whole mini discussion is dominated by "well what about the current server!" Okay, but what about the battlers? You know, the people this forum caters to? This arrangement really isn't doing the battling community any favors no matter how you slice it and ultimately it is the responsibility of the Battle Server to server battlers first and foremost and while I think that can happen while maintaining the current server community, my priority is the battlers who are being forgotten, who have to go to Smogon to find a match, who can't battle in their own community because it doesn't exist. That's my priority.
 
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I wasn't particularly interested in arguing about this more, but alas, here are my problems with the idea.

I don't like the idea of splitting up our small community. By making another server, one of them will eventually crumple from inactivity and general lack of usage. Here's the thing: we don't have a massive amount of regulars to keep the old server afloat, and once regulars like Elf and Aero leave for the new server, the older one will eventually die. I know this because we still have issues retaining consistent activity on the current server. We don't have this overflowing bucket full of non-battlers that will keep a second server running. We might as well promote battling to our existing community, and possibly get some more battling going on.

I think the problem stems from the fact that the battle server is getting more active. More people are coming to the server to chat, and off-topic discussion tends to come up more often (like it was in the past). With more people using the chat, it becomes more difficult to change the topic when others are already discussing something else. The natural decision is to make another channel for talk about competitive Pokemon, or make the lobby more focused around it and put off-topic chat in a different channel. However, I know that you (Anti) want to breakaway from this treacherous community that has become too "PC-like," has too many filthy casuals like Lala, yada yada yada. But guess what, when the old server eventually dies, they're going to come over to the new server. Then, you end up in the same situation we are in now. The community will have people that want stick around with their friends, that's only natural. What are you going to do when a good portion of community consists of those type of people and eventually saturates this new "battling" community with non-battlers? Hope that this focus on battling (and strict moderation to enforce that) will eventually drive them out?
 

Ho-Oh

used Sacred Fire!
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Just wanna say that I support the second server being unaffliated with PC purely because if the first one is the official chat room it makes me think of Ever Grabde City, and their official chat room only being PO. Smogon can get away with this but irc is hugely integrated and I don't think PC should base the entire foundations of an offsite chat being two battle servers. As for the second server I can easily populate it as I know smogon people who would likely use it to it's advantage without heading into that awkward zone of two official servers. Hard to explain but yeah.
 
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(Unrelated to the current topic.) Server channels with spaces in them are all broken. As a result, "Mature Room" doesn't function properly anymore. I have replaced it with "RatedArrgh" because I like the name more!
 
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