HM moves not counting towards move set

I have an idea and I was wondering what everyone thought about it. What if HM moves didn't count towards the 4 moves a Pokémon can learn? They could be listed separately in moves you can use outside of battle and would have no effect in battle This way your Pokémon can have all powerful moves and still get you through the game. I know HM moves aren't very popular because there's complaints that there are too many, they can't be deleted at all times, and they aren't very powerful, but I still like the idea of them. Moves that have an effect outside of battle in the Pokémon world is cool, which is why I like having HM's, BUT I wish I wasn't forced to take up one of the move slots considering they are required moves to beat the game. This might be a problem because some people like using certain HM's such as the most popular, Surf and Fly, but you'll survive. This would completely eliminate "HM Slaves" and would allow there to be a lot more HM's with no issue. What do you guys think?

As one of the members in this forum once said, one thing I'd wish for is to sub-categorize certain moves to work as HM moves. For example, a Grovile could use Leaf Blade instead of Cut to cut down trees, Psychic Pokemon using Psychic to move boulders instead of Strength, or even something like Gravity to crush boulders.

That would cause some problems, mostly for the Water types. Physical-based Water types use Waterfall and Special-based Water types use Surf. Both moves are the only useful HM moves available, and if they didn't count towards the 4 moveset limit, then those Water types will lose their only reliable moves, as other strong Water moves such as Hydro Pump and Aqua Tail have lower accuracy.

WhiteKnightL said:

As one of the members in this forum once said, one thing I'd wish for is to sub-categorize certain moves to work as HM moves. For example, a Grovile could use Leaf Blade instead of Cut to cut down trees, Psychic Pokemon using Psychic to move boulders instead of Strength, or even something like Gravity to crush boulders.

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This is the first time that I've heard this idea, and I actually like it a lot better than all other solutions I've heard. It makes sense, and allows you to use your Pokemon for more than battling. Plus they don't have to make items for everything now! Although I wonder how else they'd use surf.

I'd rather have no HM moves at all. If a Pokemon has the ability to cut down trees, then all you have to do is have it in your party, same with Surf, Waterfall, etc. That would be much more convenient. I'm not too fussed about it though.

I don't see much of a reason to change the current system. It's a lot like 4-slot syndrome or whatever it's called. You have to make the choice between certain moves or just have an HM slave tag along. I feel like all the solutions are a bit too complicated.

HM moves are gradually becoming less important, so I don't think they'd ever change the system. Plus, I worry how it would effect thing like battling, specifically, competitive battling, if Pokemon have more than four moves to attack with.

I do like the idea of Pokemon being abe to use other attacks with the same basic action, like say Cut & Leaf Blade. That would make some sense, and eliminate the need for permanent HM's. I like it.

I think some moves like Surf and Waterfall would be overpowered with this kind of mechanic. I think it's fine as is.

Strategy has always been what Pokemon games are about. And ever since the beginning, balancing your HM moves with your battle moves (albeit the occasional move that serves as both) has always been part of that strategy. I like the system as it is, and removing this particular aspect of the game would remove some of the challenge, and for me, some of the fun.

~2 cents

Instead of having additional move slots specifically for HMs, I think the best thing to do would be to make HM moves erasable. That way, we would have been able to switch our Pokémon's TMs and HMs around whenever we wanted instead of constantly going to the move deleter. That'd save us a lot of time and energy, wouldn't it? Haha.

PEDRO12 said:

Strategy has always been what Pokemon games are about. And ever since the beginning, balancing your HM moves with your battle moves (albeit the occasional move that serves as both) has always been part of that strategy. I like the system as it is, and removing this particular aspect of the game would remove some of the challenge, and for me, some of the fun.

~2 cents

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Well I made another post asking how people feel about "HM Slaves" and I'm one of the few people that does find a way to balance them out in my team, so I hear what you're saying.

If they're were to go ahead and give us free slots for HM moves on our Pokemon, they might as well go the extra step and give us key items that do the trick instead. If this had to happen though, I wouldn't be against giving each Pokemon a single slot that could be used for an HM move, but you'd still have the option to make it one of your regular 4 attacks as well (useful for moves like Waterfall and Surf that are actually good in battle).

WhiteKnightL said:

As one of the members in this forum once said, one thing I'd wish for is to sub-categorize certain moves to work as HM moves. For example, a Grovile could use Leaf Blade instead of Cut to cut down trees, Psychic Pokemon using Psychic to move boulders instead of Strength, or even something like Gravity to crush boulders.

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I think that's a neat idea in itself, and it would certainly make more sense too. There is a problem though with this and the general idea, maybe better pointed out with the following quote:

Perdition Haze said:

Instead of having additional move slots specifically for HMs, I think the best thing to do would be to make HM moves erasable. That way, we would have been able to switch our Pokémon's TMs and HMs around whenever we wanted instead of constantly going to the move deleter. That'd save us a lot of time and energy, wouldn't it? Haha.

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The problem is, well, the reason tying into why they have HM moves not be erasable in the first place without going to some guy in a town to do it for you. If you're in a cave in a section in which you have surfed, and then remove the move Surf, you'll be stuck, unable to get out until you say have your Pokemon knock themselves out and get transported to the last Pokemon centre you visited. In some obscure cases you can get yourself stranded (no Pokemon with Fly, no fishing rod/no Poke balls and the last Pokemon Centre you visited was, say, Pacifidlog Town), which is why the game prevents this (along with say releasing some Pokemon which are the only ones which know a specific HM move - give it a try!).

So the problem is - if they allow other moves to do the same job, the game would have to be able to track those too, if they don't decide for them to be similarly irremovable like HMs currently are (which'd be a probably ugly solution in itself). Not impossible, but probably a bugger to code and keep track of as it is. Sure, the chance of getting stuck in the game is a small one, but one they'd want to avoid regardless.

I think a neat way would be an option to have the Pokemon perform the HM move outside of battles, and be unable to use it in battles unless the player opts for it to replace a move. That way, the Pokemon will always know how to move that magically reappearing water or navigate three squares of water tiles or cut down that skinny tree (instead of setting fire to it, the 'logical' solution), without needing to give up a move slot. Anyone able to point out a problem with that idea, on that note? I might need to give it some more thought...

I like the sub-categorised HMs thing, that way, it'd be nice to know that Meteor Mash can still smash those rocks, and I don't have to use a HM Slave to get through to Steven.

But I don't really see any cause of trouble. If anything, this promotes battling more than experiencing a journey. You'll need to take things that you don't like, since they are necessary. This is true for a lot of real-life cases. Well, you should remember that the games also try to bring around an all-around fictitious journey. All this discussion with regard to HM Hate (I've termed it as so, XD) is possibly promoting a more battling side of gameplay. True, Pokémon battles make about 95% of the game (feel free to correct), but a touch of realism and necessary evil should be added, right? It's like saying the gym leaders should use different types because it makes them too easy to beat with a particular type/hard to beat due to absence of the particular type. It's something you'd have to cope with, nevertheless.

A Move Deleter waits in hand in every game, thus you've not breathed your last by teaching a Pokémon a HM. In competitive battling, we require no use of field moves, thus the cause of battling is saved.

I don't know about those peoples doing challenges, but I'd certainly say a sacrifice like this certainly toughens up the game, and, why not say it? Makes it more interesting.

And it is obvious why not should the HM moves be deleted. See: