Cartoons vs. Anime

@spino - On phone so I'll keep it short:
1) That's all well and good but you still haven't presented any piece of concrete evidence from a reliable source with regards to the average fps of cartoons vs anime. I can't take your or triforce's word for it unless you guys work in the animation industry....which I doubt. I personally never heard anything about there being more fps in western series when compared to their eastern counterparts before now, actually.

2) so you do agree that they're fundamentally similar? I never intended to have a debate on the merits/demerits of comparison between similar things so the second para is irrelevant. I merely replied because I didn't agree with the quoted statment of yours.

3) I effed up here, I admit. Thought you were talking about art style.

Cartoons often have more budget and before flash became the norm they looked fantastic. Doesn't mean much though, there is far more animation in an episode of Family Guy than there is in one of Gintama but I know which one I'm watching.

If anime studios were given Pixar budgets who knows what they could do. They might even stop with the mouth flaps.

Miss Anne Thrope said:

Certain animes have good plots, but it seems like almost every one gets lost in cheap sexual tension and girls with ridiculously large bosoms. Even (or should I say, especially) in serious action animes. Not to mention the English dubs always have terrible voice actors.

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That's quite a generalization even if there are are those that fit the bill.

Derozio said:

@spino - On phone so I'll keep it short:
1) That's all well and good but you still haven't presented any piece of concrete evidence from a reliable source with regards to the average fps of cartoons vs anime. I can't take your or triforce's word for it unless you guys work in the animation industry....which I doubt. I personally never heard anything about there being more fps in western series when compared to their eastern counterparts before now, actually.

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Like -Lapras- said, cartoons generally have more budget which is reason and should be proof why anime have less frames. Besides, maybe you're incapable of noticing it, which is common, but my eyes can distinguish the frame rate. I even made a thread about it in video games. I'm not gonna go out of my way to provide a source for this, but I actually thought this was known by most anyway. Though, I just did a quick google search out of curiosity and it says the average anime runs at 14 fps, whereas cartoons average 24 fps - 30 fps. No real source, but this is basing off the many answers I found from the search, and they're just in line with what I was expecting.

It's not a real problem anyway (to most, at least), but I find it enough to consider cartoon animation better. Everything else is subjective and personal preference, though.

Good point, lappy. A still image scene that lasts for 2 minutes of gintama is infinitely better than watching some insanely well animated cartoon with crap story. Animation does help, yeah, but it means nothing if the plot ain't good.

@spino - ah, okay then. I guess I'll google it myself. Though I can understand your point if you're one of those people that can notice framerates. You're right, I personally never had a problem because I never noticed anything of the sort. :p

Spinosaurus said:

He's not wrong. Anime has less frames in the animation and that is a big part of it. Also, I want you to name me an anime that is above 20 frames per second, because I have seen none. (Neither on TV nor online) Nothing is fluid if it's under 20fps, and that alone is reason enough to consider animations in cartoons better. Frame rate is a big deal for some. It's also a big reason why I personally prefer manga.

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Precisely. I like manga better too.

Derozio said:

1) That's all well and good but you still haven't presented any piece of concrete evidence from a reliable source with regards to the average fps of cartoons vs anime. I can't take your or triforce's word for it unless you guys work in the animation industry....which I doubt. I personally never heard anything about there being more fps in western series when compared to their eastern counterparts before now, actually.

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I do not work in the animation industry though, although that was my dream job back in high school. I've just been a life-long Disney nerd which leads to also reading about animation in general from time to time. I know some people here work in the industry though, and I'm really good irl friends with one of them so hopefully someone will chime in either way.

Anime generally does not have western budgets, unfortunately, and as a cost-saving measure the shows are made to be more efficient by drawing less. Less frames. Less fluid animation. They're not terrible, but not the best either.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LullDestruction This tends to show the differing mindsets between a lot of cartoons and Anime. Not in general though but it's worth noting, especially with dubs by 4kids.

I've enjoyed BOTH cartoons and anime in my lifetime. Classic anime like Death Note, Bleach, and Full Metal Alchemist were just as entertaining for me as classic cartoons like Samurai Jack, Symbiotic Titan, or Ben 10 Omniverse.

How about the combined awesomness of cartoons AND anime? Teen Titans and Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra were both amazing in my opinion. ^^

Short answer: I like both.

Batman TAS, Cybersix and other cartoons were actually animated in Japan. The animation for them seemed to be better in terms of fluidity compared to Anime made then. Not that no Anime ever had good animation then but there was a quite a difference to be seen.

matt0044 said:

Batman TAS, Cybersix and other cartoons were actually animated in Japan. The animation for them seemed to be better in terms of fluidity compared to Anime made then. Not that no Anime ever had good animation then but there was a quite a difference to be seen.

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That's true.

Didn't consider outsourcing. Early Simpsons did it too (but not Japan. Taiwan I think?) But wouldn't expect them to look animeish when they aren't anime

Western cartoons do have a higher frame rate than most eastern cartoons. That's not an opinion.

It's also a false statement to say that anime has objectively better animation, because animation itself defines a filmed (well, not anymore) sequence of images that creates an illusion of movement. It has nothing to do with the art direction, the drawings, the staging, the writing, or anything in post-production. All that stuff can enhance an animation, but unless the values at that point are haphazard, anything beyond literal animation itself is up to preference.

Technically, you can have a 12fps animation and it would be fine if it kept moving non stop. The human eye, however, may still pick up on some jerkiness, though. To some people, jerkiness is unacceptable. I, however, like limited animation. Or at least the stuff from like the 50's and 60's.

As an animator, or at least an old one, I don't like it when people throw around terms that they don't fully understand. :[ Not to say I have the best knowledge of things, either, I never had a chance to learn how they do things in the major studios like Disney, but with the way they've been behaving these days...

As for the topic itself, I don't really care either way, but I do skew towards high end western animation because it's always wonderful to see them animation principles in full effect. Beautiful stuff. I still give anime the edge for scenary, though, even in their made for TV stuff. I personally prefer to make my own animations with a lot of frames, though I think that's perfectionism at work (which I don't really like, TBH).

Now, if someone started a topic about puppet animation vs. frame by frame, then I'd start ranting. :P

PS: Lest we forget, anime was inspired by western animation first. Let's not forget my boy Osamu Tezuka. Further, you'd be surprised how many American (print) illustrators in the early 1900s, like 1910-30s drew things that have many of the exact same illustrative tropes as anime.

So much behind cartooning is older than you think.