What came first: Arceus or Mew?

No one seems to understand what ShinyUmbreon is trying to say. And you're all just picking at holes in their post because they arent perfectly constructed and fully thought through, instead of addressing the actual point.

Let me try...

In the pokemon world, people research stuff. They assume things to fill the holes. They write down facts and theories. They might be wrong about lots of things.

Just because a scientist in the pokemon world says that Arceus created the universe, doesn't mean it has to be true. Neither if some elders tell you this as a myth.
They were not there when it happened. It is impossible to know. They do not know the actual truth.


....as for dex entries, yeah, no.

@Pedro:
You forgot one completely realistic possibility. They could create another "alpha" pokemon in another region, with its own creation story, extending this topic from "Mew or Arceus" to "Mew or Arceus or X".

And thats not how theories work. If you have a theory, you need the evidence to back it up. Right now its not remotely sufficient enough for me to "believe until proven otherwise".
So its more like, "just a myth, until proven as factual history"

And the anime is not canon. Its creators are not involved with gamefreak as they design pokemon and contemplate backstories. The anime can make up any stuff they seem fit to make a plot, and they do.

XanderO said:

Gamefreak who created Pokemon said that so its a fact based on offical saying.

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Whoa, wait a sec. When?

MiTjA said:

No one seems to understand what ShinyUmbreon is trying to say. And you're all just picking at holes in their post because they arent perfectly written and fully thought through, without addressing the actual point.

Let me try...

In the pokemon world, people research stuff. They assume things to fill the holes. They write down facts and theories. They might be wrong about lots of things.

Just because a scientist in the pokemon world says that Arceus created the universe, doesn't mean it has to be true. Neither if some elders tell you this as a myth.
They were not there when it happened. It is impossible to know. They do not know the actual truth.


....as for dex entries, yeah, no.

@Pedro:
You forgot one completely realistic possibility. They could create another "alpha" pokemon in another region, with its own creation story, extending this topic from "Mew or Arceus" to "Mew or Arceus or X".

And thats not how theories work. If you have a theory, you need the evidence to back it up. Right now its not remotely sufficient enough for me to "believe until proven otherwise".
So its more like, "just a myth, until proven as factual history"

And the anime is not canon. Its creators are not involved with gamefreak as they design pokemon and contemplate backstories. The anime can make up any stuff they seem fit to make a plot, and they do.

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Thank you, finally a person to understand what I'm talking about.

I actually didn't think GameFreak was linked to the anime at all, I thought it was completely different from the game. Hmm, guess I was wrong.

But just because the storyline in the games say it's true doesn't mean its true cos the games based on scientist's discoveries. All they're myth's could be right, they all could be wrong, and some could be right and wrong. There are lots of possibilities they have and they're still trying to figure out which one fits the best from they're studies. I also noticed something that caught my eye when you said something about the elders in the game. They hear myths from the scientist in the games and tell us it's a myth. So with it being a myth that makes it impossible to know if it's true or not or prove it's a complete fact.

In game Arceus never did anything to make me believe it created the universe. When it showed it's power it didn't do anything to prove its the creator of anyting. In the anime it created the 3 delusional Pokemon but in the game it does nothing to prove me otherwise.

As for the scripts in the game; yes GameFreak made them but they're all based on scientific studies, that's how us the player gets the information. (I'm not saying that GameFreak is feeding us lies) They are doing it that way for a reason, and the reason is to make us go deep into detail with it and ask ourselves, "The elderly said this happened at this time and this place, etc" but they also state that it's all a myth tho. Meaning it could of happened or it simply didn't happen. If they didn't then what would be the point of a script? We wouldn't learn any knowledge at all and would be sitting there twiddling our thumbs waiting for something to be said or a theory to what could of happened. That's what the scientist are in the game to do, give us the information. I wouldn't say GameFreak is the scientist but I will say that they are basing the information from them.

This ties into the same thing as real life myth's in a way. God being the creator of the universe. Ok, but that's only a myth and based on belief not fact. That's what I'm trying to say.

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

I actually didn't think GameFreak was linked to the anime at all, I thought it was completely different from the game. Hmm, guess I was wrong.

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No you were right,
Read again, they are unrelated. Anime just uses stuff the games introduce to tell stories their way.

MiTjA said:

No you were right,
Read again, they are unrelated. Anime just uses stuff the games introduce to tell stories their way.

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I didn't notice the "not" in your post then. Well then that might of just changed my mind on it creating the 3 delusional Pokemon then. If they are 2 completely different things then Arceus creating the 3 delusion Pokemon could also be a scientific myth. Do you believe this be a myth too?

MiTjA said:

And thats not how theories work. If you have a theory, you need the evidence to back it up. Right now its not remotely sufficient enough for me to "believe until proven otherwise".
So its more like, "just a myth, until proven as factual history"

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? I really really like this thread seriously, haven't had a good debate in forever :3

Aaaanyways, the truth of the matter is that everything currently in existence related to Pokemon (i.e Pokedex Entries, Scientist's beliefs, Game Freak's say-so... etc) points towards Arceus being the creator of the universe.

Now I quote what I said earlier, like three times:

Now, I understand what you're trying to say. The info in the Pokedex and such were discovered by scientists in the Pokemon world, who might have been wrong.

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But, if you're talking about evidence, the theory that ShinyUmbreon is trying to convey, has absolutely no evidence at all. It's purely speculation. If we're to look for evidence, we ain't gonna find it in a fictional world, like, anywhere. We can't find facts because they're gonna be fictional facts that were also developed by fictional characters in a fictional world. What goes on in a fictional world can not be proven by facts, only by what the developers claim is fact. Mind you, I said 'claim', leaving room for ShinyUmbreon's theory, because as I said it may be possible, but not probable.

So technically ShinyUmbreon's theory has no facts, while the theory of Arceus having created the world is now supported by everyone's say-so, in a fictional world, and by the developers.

I can understand the possibility that they might introduce a new alpha Pokemon, but I can't believe in it at all untill stated otherwise by the developers. For instance, I can understand that there is a possibility that Charizard will be given a new type in Generation 6, as a Dragon type. However, I have to believe that this won't happen because I know that Pokemon only have two types, and not three.

Same thing here. You might see this example as irrelevant, but it is relevant. In both cases we are theorizing as to what they might introduce later on, and trying to convince ourselves that this is a huge possibility.

Now know that I'm not saying that your theory is wrong or anything, but what is wrong in my eye is to try to prove it when it is only speculation as opposed to the other theory.

ShinyUmbreon189 said:

I didn't notice the "not" in your post then. Well then that might of just changed my mind on it creating the 3 delusional Pokemon then. If they are 2 completely different things then Arceus creating the 3 delusion Pokemon could also be a scientific myth. Do you believe this be a myth too?

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I assume you mean the dimension-legends?
There is an event in HGSS where Arceus creates one of them that you choose in a ritual with cutscenes and tons of Unown flying about.
So Arceus clearly is capable of creating more of them under special circumstances.

That doesn't mean any of them created anything bigger or that they rule aspects of reality though.

Its like Manaphy breeding Phiones on an epic once-in-a-lifetime scale.

PEDRO12 said:

Aaaanyways, the truth of the matter is that everything currently in existence related to Pokemon (i.e Pokedex Entries, Scientist's beliefs, Game Freak's say-so... etc) points towards Arceus being the creator of the universe.

But, if you're talking about evidence, the theory that ShinyUmbreon is trying to convey, has absolutely no evidence at all. It's purely speculation. If we're to look for evidence, we ain't gonna find it in a fictional world, like, anywhere. We can't find facts because they're gonna be fictional facts that were also developed by fictional characters in a fictional world. What goes on in a fictional world can not be proven by facts, only by what the developers claim is fact. Mind you, I said 'claim', leaving room for ShinyUmbreon's theory, because as I said it may be possible, but not probable.

So technically ShinyUmbreon's theory has no facts, while the theory of Arceus having created the world is now supported by everyone's say-so, in a fictional world, and by the developers.

I can understand the possibility that they might introduce a new alpha Pokemon, but I can't believe in it at all untill stated otherwise by the developers. For instance, I can understand that there is a possibility that Charizard will be given a new type in Generation 6, as a Dragon type. However, I have to believe that this won't happen because I know that Pokemon only have two types, and not three.

Same thing here. You might see this example as irrelevant, but it is relevant. In both cases we are theorizing as to what they might introduce later on, and trying to convince ourselves that this is a huge possibility.

Now know that I'm not saying that your theory is wrong or anything, but what is wrong in my eye is to try to prove it when it is only speculation as opposed to the other theory.

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I'm not sure what theory you refer to.
All I'm saying is that myths might not be factual history, but myths.

I don't approve of the Charizard example as they are completely different things. One is about core game mechanics changing after 5 generations while the other is about whether more creation myths can be added or not because of Arceus.

As far as I know, gamefreak never themselves stated anything about this topic directly. Correct me otherwise.

MiTjA said:

As far as I know, gamefreak never themselves stated anything about this topic directly. Correct me otherwise.

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No, they haven't :)
Still, though, it's heavily implied in the Pokemon world in general. Although come to think of it, they haven't mentioned it created the world in the games O,O
That's odd, lol. Idk, guess we'll have to wait and see.

Game Freak put it in the games. This is them saying it directly. They don't answer questions about the Pokemon universe.

It just doesn't really make sense to put stock in a theory that has literally no game backup over a theory that has nearly unanimous backup across canons in the Pokemon universe. You could argue that maybe Arceus will be usurped as creator of everything in the future, but that doesn't follow logically to Mew being the first Pokemon.

Toujours said:

Game Freak put it in the games. This is them saying it directly. They don't answer questions about the Pokemon universe.

It just doesn't really make sense to put stock in a theory that has literally no game backup over a theory that has nearly unanimous backup across canons in the Pokemon universe. You could argue that maybe Arceus will be usurped as creator of everything in the future, but that doesn't follow logically to Mew being the first Pokemon.

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I'm not arguing for any theory. I'm saying that the evidence for your theory is not convincing enough to take it for granted.

Of course it has nothing to do with Mew.

The question is based on the assumption that either tale is correct. They are both way too fishy.

Reminds me of how pointing out problems to evolutionists theory, makes them conclude you must be a theist.
No, Mews "ancestor" story is even less backed up than Arceus' myth. Its not just black or white.

So yes, gamefreak does not directly tell us anything. Just through the games, but in a context that makes sense within their fictional world. Meaning if an NPC outright said Arceus is god, it wouldnt simply imply that gamefreak considers that to be the true backstory. Its what they think that person would think.

MiTjA said:

I'm not arguing for any theory. I'm saying that the evidence for your theory is not convincing enough to take it for granted.

Of course it has nothing to do with Mew.

The question is based on the assumption that either tale is correct. They are both way too fishy.

Reminds me of how pointing out problems to evolutionists theory, makes them conclude you must be a theist.
No, Mews "ancestor" story is even less backed up than Arceus' myth. Its not just black or white.

So yes, gamefreak does not directly tell us anything. Just through the games, but in a context that makes sense within their fictional world. Meaning if an NPC outright said Arceus is god, it wouldnt simply imply that gamefreak considers that to be the true backstory. Its what they think that person would think.

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I don't think they're gonna get it. Especially XanderO. They think that just cos GameFreak say's it it's true, but they're completely missing the point.

Let me try this again but in a little more detailed way.

GameFreak makes scientists in the game, the scientist then come up with information that they gathered up from they're studies. Yes, GameFreak said that in game I know but they're clearly basing it off scientific myths in game. So with everything we gathered from the scientist seems to be a myth we don't know the truth otherwise until GameFreak makes a interview video explaining it. GameFreak has not made one yet so all the information about Arceus is still a myth. GameFreak created the Pokemon Arceus, created Sinnoh, created the scrip, and everything in game but everything they're saying is myth related from the scientist point of views. Once again GAMEFREAK MADE THE SCRIPT TO BE A MYTH BASED ON SCIENTISTS DISCOVERIES. Meaning what the scientist are saying in the game may not be true, cos they weren't there to witness it. It's the same thing as God creating the universe. We weren't there to witness it so we don't know if's a truth or a myth. There's no way for us to figure it out. That's the same thing with Arceus. So what I'm saying is that GameFreak is NEVER gonna give out the real truth about Arceus because scientist can't prove it. Its impossible to prove something you didn't see.

I can find a fossil laying in the desert somewhere and all of a sudden assume it's a dinosaur; when in theory it might be something else. Its the same thing but not with fossils. They gathered up things from they're studies and gives us the best explanation they have but it still might not be true.

If someone disagrees with me I want proof that my theory is wrong cos GameFreak saying it in game isn't enough. The elders even say its a MYTH and so do the scientist and they came up with the information. Even tho GameFreak said it, plus it's just a damn game but I know what I'm talking about I know when I see person points of views. Apparently you guy's don't.

Scientists didn't come up with the info. Gamefreak planted the information there. There was no Science side. Everything is as Gamefreak says and there is tons of proof.

Please don't single any one person out either. You've harassed both me and another member when you blatantly ignore everything else said simply because you don't want to hear it not to mention you've contradicted yourself a few times, once pointed out by Toujours.

You can look at it the way you want but it still comes down to the fact that Gamefreak controls every aspect of the games. They make all the facts, so yes everything in the game is a fact presented by Gamefreak. I understand everything being said and choose not to accept some points presented because those are your opinions only and there are facts against your opinions making them false to everyone else who doesn't share in your understanding of your personal opinion.

Generation 4 installed an Origin story into the Pokemon World. This is actually the second time they installed an origin into the story of the game, though the first time was not as detailed as this one. First time an Origin was made was in Hoenn when they made Kyogre and Groudon and gave them the mythilogical ability to expand the sea and land. Kyogre is said to have created the seas and Groudon is said to have created all land masses. Neither are even native to Hoenn as it says they settled there before falling asleep.

They don't say Arceus' home is in Sinnoh, though there was a lot of stories about how he created Sinnoh, which could be part of the Regigigas myth on moving continents.

The games and Gamefreak both say Arceus came first. The Movies use these facts and work WITH Gamefreak when making the movies so even though they work differently they both say the same thing. Two different sources say the same thing.

Now I've also been the only person to repeatedly say that Mew wasn't created by Arceus. I said he came into existence much later, and there is a part of history from the main games that supports my opinion on that as well.

According to several Sinnoh myths, this region was the first of all the regions in the Pokémon world to have been created. In a void of nothingness, a single Egg came into being, which then hatched into Arceus, the first Pokémon to be in existence. Arceus created Dialga, Palkia, and possibly Giratina, and Arceus then gave Dialga and Palkia the abilities to control time and space, respectively. Giratina was banished to another dimension for its violent behavior. Then, during the very early formation of the world, Arceus created Azelf, Uxie, and Mesprit to create willpower, knowledge, and emotion respectively, things that are in all modern humans and Pokémon. They dove to the bottom of present-day Lake Valor, Lake Acuity, and Lake Verity, an act which earned them the name "the lake trio". At that point, Arceus created the Sinnoh region and Mt. Coronet divided the region into two sections. During this violent procedure, Stark Mountain was created and Heatran was formed in lava. Arceus finally created the Adamant, Lustrous and Griseous Orbs before falling into a never-ending sleep at the Hall of Origin.
Around this time, Mew was thought to have came into being by itself, containing the DNA of every Pokémon to exist and exist in the future. Human habitation of Sinnoh is estimated to have begun when Sinnoh was created, as said in myth. It is stated that Pokémon and humans led separate lives, but always helped each other. They supplied each other with goods, and supported each other. A Pokémon proposed to the others to always be ready to help humans, and that Pokémon be ready to appear before humans always. Thus, to this day, Pokémon appear to humans if they venture into tall grass.

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There was a small excerpt about Mew in the Sinnoh history given by the creators of the games. I just don't agree with you because your opinions didn't match up with other information from canon sources.

I see it as Arceus First, various Legends, and then Mew.

XanderO said:

Scientists didn't come up with the info. Gamefreak planted the information there. There was no Science side. Everything is as Gamefreak says and there is tons of proof.

Please don't single any one person out either. You've harassed both me and another member when you blatantly ignore everything else said simply because you don't want to hear it not to mention you've contradicted yourself a few times, once pointed out by Toujours.

You can look at it the way you want but it still comes down to the fact that Gamefreak controls every aspect of the games. They make all the facts, so yes everything in the game is a fact presented by Gamefreak. I understand everything being said and choose not to accept some points presented because those are your opinions only and there are facts against your opinions making them false to everyone else who doesn't share in your understanding of your personal opinion.

Generation 4 installed an Origin story into the Pokemon World. This is actually the second time they installed an origin into the story of the game, though the first time was not as detailed as this one. First time an Origin was made was in Hoenn when they made Kyogre and Groudon and gave them the mythilogical ability to expand the sea and land. Kyogre is said to have created the seas and Groudon is said to have created all land masses. Neither are even native to Hoenn as it says they settled there before falling asleep.

They don't say Arceus' home is in Sinnoh, though there was a lot of stories about how he created Sinnoh, which could be part of the Regigigas myth on moving continents.

The games and Gamefreak both say Arceus came first. The Movies use these facts and work WITH Gamefreak when making the movies so even though they work differently they both say the same thing. Two different sources say the same thing.

Now I've also been the only person to repeatedly say that Mew wasn't created by Arceus. I said he came into existence much later, and there is a part of history from the main games that supports my opinion on that as well.



There was a small excerpt about Mew in the Sinnoh history given by the creators of the games. I just don't agree with you because your opinions didn't match up with other information from canon sources.

I see it as Arceus First, various Legends, and then Mew.

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You obviously still don't get it. I know GameFreak planted the stuff in the game, if they didn't then who else would? Your arguing with the complete opposite of what I'm trying to say. The scientist in the games that GameFreak put in the games are there to give us the information that GameFreak planted in the games. You see GameFreak is playing a role in this too. They are planting the scripts from the scientist points of views (once again I know GameFreak put it in there I've known this for 13 to 14 years) on they're discoveries. Let's say you work for GameFreak, you make the world of Pokemon and everything and come out with a game. You then come up with a plot for the game and the scripts to go with the plot. You come up with Pokemon that are going to be in that game and come up with Legends that are gonna be in that game. Then you put scientist in the games. So what your saying is that the scientist mean nothing in the games? Are they just there just to look like a ******? Cos that's what it seems like your saying. Are the elders all over the region ******* because they say it's a myth they got from the what you call ******** scientist that shouldn't be in the game cos they aren't GameFreak? They are GameFreak, but played in a different view. The scientist are there for nothing but to figure out the creation of Pokemon. Remember Cianwood City in Kanto? Those scientist are still trying to figure out why Kabuto, Kabutops, Omanyte, Omastar, and Aerodactyl went extinct but yet they still found a way to make them come to life again. But that is different to what I'm saying. The other scientist in the games talk myths about Arceus that GameFreak planted in the game to make it more exciting. They did it because GameFreak put scientist in there to figure out they're own facts that they got from they're discoveries. It's kind of like acting. GameFreak is acting like they don't know they're own facts by basing it off scientist studies that they gathered. That's exactly what the scientist are in the game to do. If I can't find a better way to explain it then I guess GameFreak just created Arceus for nothing and had no myths to how it could of been this or could of done that and the scientist are all wrong. Meaning Arceus just came out of nowhere and the scientist that lived before Arceus sitll lives now and seen it happen. Yeah, ok.

He hasn't called anyone in-game anything so inappropriate as you're assuming. Calm yourself. This is your warning.

The real question here is, you keep claiming that these aren't trustworthy, but scientists are the most trustworthy source you could possibly get, considering Game Freak isn't going to answer your canon questions and never have. What reason do you have to doubt them as a source, other than they contradict your own theory?

No one lived before Arceus though. The history that Gamefreak made says Arceus existed before anything else and Arceus created the regions. The quote I posted said he created Sinnoh first, so Sinnoh would be both the oldest region as well as the point of origin, which does contradict what I said before. I still don't think a large number of the Legends are from where they are currently placed.

I know creatures like the Legendary Birds are migratory and the Legendary Golems, the Regi, are in multiple locations across the world.

Gamefreak still provides in game evidence that Arceus came before Mew. I still believe Mew came into existence later than the quote too, though I don't agree with the DNA thing due to other characteristics other Pokemon can share. If it were the Primordial Pot of DNA then you could clone any Pokemon in existence. Which they never did. They ended up creating a new Pokemon.

Toujours said:

He hasn't called anyone in-game anything so inappropriate as you're assuming. Calm yourself. This is your warning.

The real question here is, you keep claiming that these aren't trustworthy, but scientists are the most trustworthy source you could possibly get, considering Game Freak isn't going to answer your canon questions and never have. What reason do you have to doubt them as a source, other than they contradict your own theory?

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I'm tired of trying to explain a blatant fact. Ok then tell me how Arceus came along then? I want an answer now. GameFreak put it in there for a reason they didn't just put him in there just because. Ok, I'll try this with your guy's mindset. Yea GameFreak put it in the game so that means its a fact. The scientist in the games and elders in the games are wrong and untrustworthy. GameFreak said Arceus came first but. Now let me stop here and finish it with my theory. GameFreak made the game I know do I need to say it again? GameFreak knows exactly how Arceus came along and how the Pokemon universe was created. But what they are saying in the game may not be right. Why? Because it's scientists myths in the game. Scientist discovered Arceus might of been born from an egg to create the universe but it's only a myth. Mew is said to be the ancestor of Pokemon but it's only a myth. Fossiled Pokemon in the game are said to be extinct when It's only a myth. GameFreak knows for a fact if Mew is ancestor, if Arceus created the universe, if fossiled Pokemon are extinct. What I'm trying to say with the scientist is that GameFreak is acting as the scientist by figuring out which theory goes with the fact. When that theory in the end doesn't work. I honestly don't know how else to explain this.

What makes your theory more accurate than the theory that pretty much the entirety of Pokemon canon supports? If, as you say, "Mew is said to be the ancestor of Pokemon but it's only a myth", then you have no reason to believe that either.

I say the creator of all Pokemon is Stunfisk.

They aren't doing anything like that. The scientists in the game are there for flavor. The Myths and scientists say the same thing Gamefreak says. Gamefreak made them say it. You refuse to see that. Everything says the same thing. Arceus came first.

The Scientists are non-existent, fictional minor characters that are there for extra flavor into the games. They existed to make a bridge between our world and the Pokemon World. The ones researching fossils has nothing to do with Arceus or Mew.

Gamefreak makes all the information and chooses media within the game to carry over the information.

You haven't been explaining any facts. You are pushing your opinions. There aren't any facts that support your theory when the games and game's creators themselves say Arceus came before Mew.

Toujours said:

What makes your theory more accurate than the theory that pretty much the entirety of Pokemon canon supports? If, as you say, "Mew is said to be the ancestor of Pokemon but it's only a myth", then you have no reason to believe that either.

I say the creator of all Pokemon is Stunfisk.

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I never said Mew "wasn't the ancestor" I said it could be a myth. The scientist in game didn't see Mew create a Pokemon so that makes it a myth. The scientist in the games didn't see Arcues create the universe so therefore it's a myth. GameFreak is NEVER gonna give out the truth to how they created the universe. It's in the least of they're interests but they want us to believe that this happened. GameFreak is like the God of Pokemon so they want us to believe this happened even tho it could be a myth. That's what I'm trying to say.

Why do we have reason to doubt it? This isn't some universe like ours where certain rules apply. It's magical and amazing and completely different and therefore we have no reason to think that Arceus isn't exactly what we've been told he is.

It is said that Arceus has created every Pokemon, I'm assuming it also created hundreds of Mews.