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Judging religion

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It think 'criticism' is a better word to use. 'Judging' feels more about making a proclamation of truth or handing down a legal decision or something like that.

If we're looking at religion in the sense of "how does X affect Y based on Z" or in other words if we're assessing the effect religion has on one thing or another then we can certainly be critical. Critical in the sense of scrutinizing (like literary criticism), not necessarily denigrating.

So it's probably more than appropriate to ask things like "How well does religion do toward making people happy?" or something more narrow like "does church attendance lead to deeper religious understanding?" Or whatever. It's something that religious people do with their own religions, usually in the hopes of making it better or making it more appealing to people or something like that. It's just that non-religious people or people hostile to a particular religion may also do with a different aim through different kinds of questions. It's when people have preconceived ideas (and they don't show the thought process or experiences that led them to those idea) that you get into a bad kind of judging.

tl;dr judging is fine if you really want to ask questions and get answers and not just spout your own views regardless of what anyone else says
 

Sydian

fake your death.
33,379
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I don't believe religions on a whole are an issue. The interpretation of some stray sheep, however, is cause for concern. That's where my judgment comes is.
 
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There are many type of judgments that you could make; to me, some are acceptable, while others aren't. If you're judging some person depending on their reliability and skills to do certain job, then that's perfectly fine and very much understandable. If your judgement causes you (as well as others) to grow unnecessary distaste for a select group of people, though, that's not.
 

T The Manager

RealTalkRealFlow
186
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Judging a religion respectably isn't a problem for me it's when people try to shove religion down your throat forcing you to have the same beliefs as them while judging your religion I have a problem with. That's a good way to get your face smashed in, and some people just have zero respect for someone's beliefs and opinions. Believing in a "God" no matter the religion isn't a requirement it's a choice based on your faith and it irritates me when people try to force the existence of a God in a discussion.. Bible thumpers tend to this and that's why I have very little respect for bible thumbers, their nutcases imo. Not nutcases for believing in Jesus or anything but nutcases for the extremes they take religion to by bashing everything you do or are.. But what they don't realize is that judging is a sin so their disrespecting the God they worship. I find it ironically humorous at the same time.
 

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire

10000 year Emperor of Hoenn
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I don't think that you should judge a religion. A religion is a purely personal belief that is as individual as one's morals and ethics values, and while various religions are portrayed as having a certain stance on particular points - like Islam being against gender equality and Christianity being against the theory of evolution or Big Bang - this is not entirely true as every Muslim can have their own adaptation of Islam and every Christian can have their own adaptation of Christianity.

This is why I don't think that we should judge a religion as a whole. We shouldn't say: "Islam is bad" or "Christianity is holding back progress" because it is not the religion, but rather some people who practice it that are doing these actions.

I've seen and read people use the Qur'an as a basis for gender equality so I'm sad to see people think that way about Islam. I myself am a believer in Christ and believe evolution and the big bang (as theories until science says otherwise, if they ever do). As you say it's not the religion itself but the followers. Religion is unfortunately warped by it's "followers" to fit people's plans for power, wealth, or something along those lines.
 

Hitsushiro

someone
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Geology teacher? But he should be able to take geological records of fossils and radioactive decay seriously. Chemistry teacher? Probably has been exposed to biological chemistry over the years. I guess once a scientific concept gets into the way of religious creation, devout believers are tempted to disregard them. Yes, it is temptation. Ignorance is sloth of the mind, and sloth is a sin :O

I did a quick google search about passages concerning ignorance in the Bible, unfortunately, it seems that Christianity doesn't really put an emphasis on ignorance, shame really

Love the passive-aggressive post.

Just to add to the discussion on 'judgement'. Should we focus on judging the individuals' movement (e.g. Christians), or the great ideological body (e.g. the Catholic Church)? (something that has already been mentioned) I have heard a couple of arguments that the Catholic Church has a lot of power that could influence what Christians believe and therefore stimulate what atheists see as 'progress'. This could be seen with the issue of contraception and evolution for example. Do atheists believe it is the Catholic Church that is 'in the wrong' for, for example, condemning the use of contraception, or is it the Christian individuals who decide to follow such dogma?
 

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen
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Love the passive-aggressive post.

Just to add to the discussion on 'judgement'. Should we focus on judging the individuals' movement (e.g. Christians), or the great ideological body (e.g. the Catholic Church)? (something that has already been mentioned) I have heard a couple of arguments that the Catholic Church has a lot of power that could influence what Christians believe and therefore stimulate what atheists see as 'progress'. This could be seen with the issue of contraception and evolution for example. Do atheists believe it is the Catholic Church that is 'in the wrong' for, for example, condemning the use of contraception, or is it the Christian individuals who decide to follow such dogma?
The Catholic Church is only the leading body of Catholic Christians. Other Christians, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Protestants, etc. don't really pay much attention to them. At least that's how I understand it.
 
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I'm an atheist too, but I understand why people follow religions. It gives them hope that when they die, they get to go to a peaceful place. The problem with this is, because they're looking so forward to being in that place, they don't care about the place they're currently in.

IMHO I think religion is the biggest cause of destruction of our planet. Thousands of wars have broken out because of it that are still raging on to this day. Millions have been killed by these wars.

I'm happy to think that when I die, I'll be cremated to become a part of the earth again and support the life on the planet. I think that's a better end than going to Valhalla. It would probably get boring there anyway, with the constant feasting and battles for glory.
 

Hitsushiro

someone
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I'm an atheist too, but I understand why people follow religions. It gives them hope that when they die, they get to go to a peaceful place. The problem with this is, because they're looking so forward to being in that place, they don't care about the place they're currently in.

IMHO I think religion is the biggest cause of destruction of our planet. Thousands of wars have broken out because of it that are still raging on to this day. Millions have been killed by these wars.

I'm happy to think that when I die, I'll be cremated to become a part of the earth again and support the life on the planet. I think that's a better end than going to Valhalla. It would probably get boring there anyway, with the constant feasting and battles for glory.

I see where you are coming from, but that is a huge generalisation which is in fact not true to the majority of Christians. We live in the present just as any other religion or atheist. Furthermore, I think you're giving religion too much credit, when instead you should blame people themselves.
 

for him.

I'm trash.
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I'm an atheist leaning on agnostic. I don't really care for religion all that much. I get why people follow it though. It gives people hope in times of despair. I am completely fine with it. However, I have a problem with religion once people start a) shoving it down people's throats who don't even want it and/or b) using it as an excuse to hate someone openly.
 

PokemonLeagueChamp

Traveling Hoenn once more.
749
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Religion and spirituality are not in themselves the issue. The issue, as with most everything else that gets discussed in this subforum, is humanity and human nature. Even though the premises of most religious denominations are relatively harmless, they quickly get hijacked by those looking for power and prestige. When religion is used as a controlling influence, the tactics used are basically the same as those used by any other ideological system that is used to control people. Divide and conquer is a major part of this. Another is setting up a group of people as those who are Correct, and dismissing any dissent. This is done in religious context, but you can also see it in politics. Even the holy books of religions can be written by imperfect, fallible, power-hungry humans, and as a result religions end up being framed around humanity's concept of what it should be, and this framing can(and likely does)drown out whatever truth is buried underneath it.

People will use any means necessary to accomplish what they want to. To simply lump all religion under a banner marked "evil" is therefore unfair. People can and will corrupt whatever they touch to reach their own ends, whether it be history, politics, the planet itself, or religion. Therefore, what should be judged more than any given religion is those in charge of said religion, and humanity as a whole.
 

Alexander Nicholi

what do you know about computing?
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A whole lot of this is screaming that theism is the problem, not directly religion. Religion incorporates ideologies and philosophies into a structured system of thought, and albeit theism is often inserted to that, it's not an explicit requirement.

I follow Buddhism rather closely as a lot of the ideas and philosophies it presents sound very appealing to me, and it's normally an atheistic religion. Theism is a vector of the dismantling and corruption of any good ideas a religion ever had, since the idea of a supreme being greatly obstructs normal reasoning and in some popular religions facades as something great whereas it's less than so (need I say why). It allows for the justification in the heads of one's self and others for the epitome of human evil and at the same time allows for the less-present justification of good acts that could be done without credit to any god. A universal vector like that is demonstrably harmful to its application, don't you think?
 

Oryx

CoquettishCat
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A whole lot of this is screaming that theism is the problem, not directly religion. Religion incorporates ideologies and philosophies into a structured system of thought, and albeit theism is often inserted to that, it's not an explicit requirement.

I follow Buddhism rather closely as a lot of the ideas and philosophies it presents sound very appealing to me, and it's normally an atheistic religion. Theism is a vector of the dismantling and corruption of any good ideas a religion ever had, since the idea of a supreme being greatly obstructs normal reasoning and in some popular religions facades as something great whereas it's less than so (need I say why). It allows for the justification in the heads of one's self and others for the epitome of human evil and at the same time allows for the less-present justification of good acts that could be done without credit to any god. A universal vector like that is demonstrably harmful to its application, don't you think?

This doesn't really back up your point considering Buddhists has been systematically abusing Muslims in places like Myanmar for a while now. In fact, that proves the opposite point, that it's religion in general that's the problem, not theism, since there are Buddhists that murder in the sake of their religion as well.
 

Alexander Nicholi

what do you know about computing?
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This doesn't really back up your point considering Buddhists has been systematically abusing Muslims in places like Myanmar for a while now. In fact, that proves the opposite point, that it's religion in general that's the problem, not theism, since there are Buddhists that murder in the sake of their religion as well.
It's been shown throughout history that more people have murdered in the name of a god than for any other reason. It's fallacious to pass off all religions as broken and "corruption-inducing" or whathaveyou simply because a minority of them kill… don't all groups have a few psychopaths, regardless of their purpose?


Sorry, but the "Buddhists kill, must be Buddhism right" argument doesn't work too well.
 

Oryx

CoquettishCat
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You can't dismiss religion as a problem simply because of the human condition because it's been shown throughout history that more people have murdered in the name of a god than for any other reason. It's fallacious to pass off all religions simply because a minority of them kill… don't all groups have a few psychopaths, regardless of their purpose?


Sorry, but the "Buddhists kill, must be Buddhism right" argument doesn't work too well.

I'm not sure what you're arguing against, because I didn't say any of that - all I'm saying is that linking it to theism instead of religion doesn't really fly considering your example of an atheistic religion also has issues with murdering in the name of religion. You said "theism is the problem, not directly religion," and followed it with the example of Buddhism, an atheistic religion that apparently isn't "corrupted" by the problem of theism, but it is certainly not an uncorrupted religion, therefore the problem can't just be theism. I'm not saying anything about what was shown throughout history or passing off all religions. I didn't even say religion was the problem; I said that your example argues for that point.
 

Alexander Nicholi

what do you know about computing?
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I'm not sure what you're arguing against, because I didn't say any of that - all I'm saying is that linking it to theism instead of religion doesn't really fly considering your example of an atheistic religion also has issues with murdering in the name of religion. You said "theism is the problem, not directly religion," and followed it with the example of Buddhism, an atheistic religion that apparently isn't "corrupted" by the problem of theism, but it is certainly not an uncorrupted religion, therefore the problem can't just be theism. I'm not saying anything about what was shown throughout history or passing off all religions. I didn't even say religion was the problem; I said that your example argues for that point.
To recap, theism creates an obstruction for normal human reasoning and thought - Buddhism has no such thing. It's really hard to equate a house with some personal problems to the philosophies and teachings Gautama Buddha and other buddhas had simply because they choose to say they're "with Buddhism". If you were Christian it'd be like equating any run-of-the-mill church with the looney WBC, to show you. The difference I've noticed between Buddhism and other religions is the way their scriptures were written - The Bible is an incredibly confusing piece of literature and it largely acts as justification for the reader's/follower's actions, good or bad. It's an amplifier for pushing human thought into action.

Then again, simply because you call yourself Buddhist doesn't mean you are, eh? I could say I'm Jewish but I've never been introduced at all to the religion and was not born into it, or I could say I'm Muslim and have never read the Qur'an. I just don't see how Buddhism should be to blame for the actions of extremists who clearly don't follow or execute anything the religion ever taught.
 
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I would agree if it were just a few people within a single denomination, but that's not the case here. Trinity Works is a huge evangelical organization with thousands of members. The fact that they're promising that at least 300 will attend the Twin Cities Pride to me is more than just a few people. And, in fact, is a whole lot larger than the attendance at most churches!

This is not an isolated incident. There are countless number of stories about the craziness that this one particular religion engages in. This just happens to be the most recent.
 

zakisrage

In the trunk on Highway 10
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I think that no belief system is perfect. Every belief system has a few loopholes - no exceptions (even atheism isn't perfect). That doesn't make me want to stop being a Muslim. I'm proud of being a Muslim and the bad stuff that certain Muslims have done in history doesn't change that. I don't agree with everything in the Quran. Plenty of religious people disagree with parts of their scripture - even I do. I disagree with the Quran forbidding homosexuality. There's lots of Muslim traditions that aren't in the Quran - and I'm not only referring to the negative ones. The ironic thing is, if you go to many Muslim countries, the people are less religious than the immigrants in many Western countries.

Religiosity is a spectrum - there's a lot of room between atheism and religious fundamentalism.
 
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