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[Discussion] Thoughts on a Community Project?

Lord Varion

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It's been floating round my head for a few weeks now.
But some of the fan game here are starting to get really good, due to everyone's skills improving.

But my main thought was, what if we all attempted a community game?
What are your guys thoughts on such a thing?
Do you feel it would be good? Or something bad is bound to happen?
or, some other reason?
 

DaSpirit

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I've honestly never seen a community project finish anywhere. They always fail.

I'd be better to just start an open source project.
 

Sunfished

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It really sounds like a fun little thing we can get into. And because of the amount of people this board REALLY has and the creativity of some who never got into game developing, we can really steamroll through this kind of project!

If your planning to attempt this, I suggest you begin as soon as possible. Every time a new Pokemon game comes out, this place gets kinda deserted...

I'll support this
 

Cilerba

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It really sounds like a fun little thing we can get into. And because of the amount of people this board REALLY has and the creativity of some who never got into game developing, we can really steamroll through this kind of project!

If your planning to attempt this, I suggest you begin as soon as possible. Every time a new Pokemon game comes out, this place gets kinda deserted...

I'll support this

Quite the opposite actually. When a new game is released people usually try and update their games to the latest style as soon as possible.
 

Maruno

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I've had this thought too. It'll be very difficult to pull off, though.

If you go for the "one leader/coordinator, everyone else contributes", then it's practically no different to any other fangame being made. The "contributions" will only be vague suggestions, meaning no actual work will get done except by the leader, who will inevitably give up once they realise they're stuck doing everything by themselves. Also, the community will never agree on anything (plot/pacing/Pokémon/mapping/etc.), so no progress will be made there anyway unless someone (the leader) takes charge and defines a direction - in which case, again, it's no different to any other fangame.

----------------------------

There is an alternative, though, and it's one I've been thinking about and which may have potential. One person works on the game at a time, and possession rotates between those who volunteer in turn. There is a strict time limit of 1 week per person, during which time they're allowed to do anything they want to the game (including undoing/redoing other people's work without remorse). At the end of their week, they send a download link to the next person on the list, and post a summary of what they've done for everyone to see. If they fail to do either of these things, their efforts are ignored and the previous week's version gets passed on instead (both the revised game and the summary are required, as it's a team effort and there shouldn't be secrets or hidden information between members; otherwise their work cannot be accepted).

The advantage of this is that people can have a go at a bit of game-making for a week, and will only contribute if they're actually interested enough to volunteer (which means they will do something). The time per person (1 week) is kept relatively short to encourage actual progress, rather than letting it get bogged down with designing new-for-the-sake-of-new systems (not to mention keeping things going relatively smoothly if someone vanishes). Meanwhile, the thread for the project will have discussion about the latest week's changes, collaboration about the story and so on, and will help direct the suggested progress of the game - the current week's developer still has absolute free reign over everything, of course. In the end all the revisions and possessions and discussions should come together to form an actual game.

Obviously someone needs to start things off first, perhaps before even making a thread for this project (so there's something to start from). Or maybe you could say that the Essentials example maps are the starting point, rather than starting with a blank slate like normal, and for starters the aim is to expand/turn them into an actual game (plans can always change later). I don't know whether it's better to let everyone download every week's revision, or whether it should be passed privately between each person as their turn comes round (the project's coordinater should also keep every revision for archiving, which is their only purpose). Everyone should definitely be kept informed of all the changes made each week, though.

Could this work?
 

Lord Varion

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I've honestly never seen a community project finish anywhere. They always fail.

I'd be better to just start an open source project.

The amount of people that could work on a community project, when one person leaves, there's always bound to either be someone ready to replace them, or someone who can do the same thing already in the project.

It really sounds like a fun little thing we can get into. And because of the amount of people this board REALLY has and the creativity of some who never got into game developing, we can really steamroll through this kind of project!

If your planning to attempt this, I suggest you begin as soon as possible. Every time a new Pokemon game comes out, this place gets kinda deserted...

I'll support this

I agree, this place has alot of creativity and potential, enough to make a really good game, I'm hoping enough members want to do this! ^^'

I've had this thought too. It'll be very difficult to pull off, though.

If you go for the "one leader/coordinator, everyone else contributes", then it's practically no different to any other fangame being made. The "contributions" will only be vague suggestions, meaning no actual work will get done except by the leader, who will inevitably give up once they realise they're stuck doing everything by themselves. Also, the community will never agree on anything (plot/pacing/Pokémon/mapping/etc.), so no progress will be made there anyway unless someone (the leader) takes charge and defines a direction - in which case, again, it's no different to any other fangame.

----------------------------

There is an alternative, though, and it's one I've been thinking about and which may have potential. One person works on the game at a time, and possession rotates between those who volunteer in turn. There is a strict time limit of 1 week per person, during which time they're allowed to do anything they want to the game (including undoing/redoing other people's work without remorse). At the end of their week, they send a download link to the next person on the list, and post a summary of what they've done for everyone to see. If they fail to do either of these things, their efforts are ignored and the previous week's version gets passed on instead (both the revised game and the summary are required, as it's a team effort and there shouldn't be secrets or hidden information between members; otherwise their work cannot be accepted).

The advantage of this is that people can have a go at a bit of game-making for a week, and will only contribute if they're actually interested enough to volunteer (which means they will do something). The time per person (1 week) is kept relatively short to encourage actual progress, rather than letting it get bogged down with designing new-for-the-sake-of-new systems (not to mention keeping things going relatively smoothly if someone vanishes). Meanwhile, the thread for the project will have discussion about the latest week's changes, collaboration about the story and so on, and will help direct the suggested progress of the game - the current week's developer still has absolute free reign over everything, of course. In the end all the revisions and possessions and discussions should come together to form an actual game.

Obviously someone needs to start things off first, perhaps before even making a thread for this project (so there's something to start from). Or maybe you could say that the Essentials example maps are the starting point, rather than starting with a blank slate like normal, and for starters the aim is to expand/turn them into an actual game (plans can always change later). I don't know whether it's better to let everyone download every week's revision, or whether it should be passed privately between each person as their turn comes round (the project's coordinater should also keep every revision for archiving, which is their only purpose). Everyone should definitely be kept informed of all the changes made each week, though.

Could this work?

The only problem I see with this, and a problem all together with a community project is, someone managing to sign up to this, and get to their turn, and just mess it all up.
Of course we'd have backups but it would be a real let down.

As for the passing it around, it's a well good idea, but privately would work better, but in the Project's thread the last member who worked on it, must post Screenshots of their progress and their summary sheet, and any adaptations they have made to the Design Document, including the Document itself. The private way I can see is something like Google Drive, only people you want can access the downloadables. Which means we'd all have to get Google accounts.

And yes, starting off would be a bit iffy, We'd need to make a story, and features and general plots and thing like that, that usual take a while to generate and write down.
 
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Sunfished

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Right now, I think that a leader/owner thing is the best way to go. The "pass-the-project" around thing sounds really dangerous, as the one who DID get the game can potentially waste a whole week of progress. And on top of that, I beleive that many people would want to get in to help, which only adds to a waiting list of who gets it next.

Personally, I think we should elect certain people that has access to edit the game. That way the game is controlled and noone gets overhauled with work.
 

Lord Varion

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Right now, I think that a leader/owner thing is the best way to go. The "pass-the-project" around thing sounds really dangerous, as the one who DID get the game can potentially waste a whole week of progress. And on top of that, I beleive that many people would want to get in to help, which only adds to a waiting list of who gets it next.

Personally, I think we should elect certain people that has access to edit the game. That way the game is controlled and noone gets overhauled with work.

But then, that's basically the over Game Team.
But we could have different classes like;
  • Mappers
  • Scripters
  • Spriters
  • Event Makers
  • Concept Artists
  • Story and Plotters

and have them form a group every week, So one week is based on mapping, the next is scripting.
But Concepting and Spriting can be done when required as it's not AS big of an job.
 

Sunfished

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Ok, your idea of having "leaders" sounds better. So every leader will then lead a group of that particular class, and then let everyone vote for a feature that the class leader wil present to the game developers?
 

Lord Varion

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Ok, your idea of having "leaders" sounds better. So every leader will then lead a group of that particular class, and then let everyone vote for a feature that the class leader wil present to the game developers?

We'll have the Classes I mentioned; Each Class group gets a Leader?
Either when with the greatest skill or knowledge, or one we vote for, based on first option.
The leaders will produce the Weekly report, where as the Class Members can give out small updates on what they do during the week if they wish, but still it will all be written down in a Project Weekly Summary.
 

Maruno

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There'd be a list of everyone who volunteered to take a week, including the order/dates they go in. This would be public information. If necessary, a banlist could also be made (also public information). Also, if someone decides they want to pull out of their slot, they can; the allocations will just be bumped up by a week or a replacement can be found.

When I said "privately", I meant upload your revision to Mediafire or somewhere and just PM the next person (and the archiver) the link, rather than give everyone the link.

I'm sure someone could get a bit of inspiration and start things off (before even posting it). There's not even a real need for any plot at all at the beginning (except for "8 Gyms, Elite Four, end"). An RBY plot is more than sufficient to start with.

The extra benefit of 1-week slots is that corruption (accidental or intentional) won't have too much of an impact. It's a risk that just needs to be taken. Note that a malicious volunteer won't actually undo any progress (it'll be archived before they get their hands on it); it just means a stall of 1 week.

Deciding who can/should get the game in a particular week could be up for public debate as well, although I don't think it's really in the spirit of things. However, starting off with maybe 6 good contributions from trusted people will certainly boost interest and opinions, as well as result in a decent starting point.

Essentials is good enough to make a game without any script editing. I think this project should take that to heart and, although not expressly forbid script editing, at least suggest that mapping/eventing are the important things.

I see this project also being a chance for people to "have a go" at game-making, by diving into the middle of a project they will have read about but didn't have to spend ages designing beforehand. I think that's an attractive prospect. They'll only volunteer in the first place if they're interested in the project/game itself anyway, so it's not like they won't be able to do anything. And even if they don't want to edit the game itself, they can still play with the "big boys" and help decide on the game's direction through discussion.

Nintendork's suggestion of teams and voting and reports sounds too bureaucratic and boring to me, and too much like any other fangame group. I thought this project might be different (encourage newbies, offer experience of game-making, etc.). You know, fun.
 

Sunfished

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Ok then, this sounds like its planned out a bit and has some progress on how it should be handled.

I'll be happy to support the potential this project could have
 

Lord Varion

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I'm not 100% sure of settings on Mediafire, whether someone can just google the main words to something plus the word 'Mediafire' So: Pokemon: Pokecommunity Version Week 2 Progress Mediafire' And get the link like that, or if you can set it to private so only given links access it.

We could start with the average RBY plot, and generally add things to it yes, just we'd need to again, have a say in from anyone involved whether the last submitted idea is a good'un or not.

The only need for public debate would be the first few (6... maybe?) people to contribute, then it will be people who submit themselves to the project added to a queue. Bare in mind the queue may get long, if the project got too popular and known.

The only need for script editing would be to add feature to benefit gameplay, but that can wait a along time, till required I guess.

That suggestion would bad, most of mine would be x3 but after 2 years on a game development course, they make you try to see thing in the way a Game Dev company would, the game is passed round between groups when they would.

But, your idea seems to be a bit better, and I hope I've not thrown you off this idea :/ with my idea.
 

Sunfished

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Well, I really don't mind as how this is handled. I'm most likely just going to stay by the side lines and help the development progress forwards.

However, here was what I had in mind when you mentioned "leaders":

First off, there would be a main leader, the one who controls how the project be executed. This guy would have to keep an eye on how the project would be doing at all times. then, we have a group of people who are in charge of adding in the content, aka the programmers. The programmers should each have a particular job, mostly something they are good at, like the scripter or the one who adds in content. This small group would pass the game around among themselves, with the main leader being able to see the progress and keep them in line.

Then we have the class leaders, the ones who control a certain "class". These guys would first make some sort of post that gathered up ideas that pertained to their class, then afterwards put up a voting system that anyone can vote in. The class leader would then present what they deemed noteworthy and important from the votes to the programmers to add in.

And of course we need some sort of way to keep track of all thats been approved and in the queue of adding, which i think the leader whould be in charge of.

Doing it this way allows almost everyone to be able to participate and add in only the most popular content, without making the community feel like the project has a strict judgment on content, since its more of a popular vote thing. Doing it the pass-it-around way is far longer and many ranges of content is added, leaving the game more like a random garbled mess.
 

Lord Varion

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Well, I really don't mind as how this is handled. I'm most likely just going to stay by the side lines and help the development progress forwards.

However, here was what I had in mind when you mentioned "leaders":

First off, there would be a main leader, the one who controls how the project be executed. This guy would have to keep an eye on how the project would be doing at all times. then, we have a group of people who are in charge of adding in the content, aka the programmers. The programmers should each have a particular job, mostly something they are good at, like the scripter or the one who adds in content. This small group would pass the game around among themselves, with the main leader being able to see the progress and keep them in line.

Then we have the class leaders, the ones who control a certain "class". These guys would first make some sort of post that gathered up ideas that pertained to their class, then afterwards put up a voting system that anyone can vote in. The class leader would then present what they deemed noteworthy and important from the votes to the programmers to add in.

And of course we need some sort of way to keep track of all thats been approved and in the queue of adding, which i think the leader whould be in charge of.

Doing it this way allows almost everyone to be able to participate and add in only the most popular content, without making the community feel like the project has a strict judgment on content, since its more of a popular vote thing. Doing it the pass-it-around way is far longer and many ranges of content is added, leaving the game more like a random garbled mess.

But with the pass-around idea, if someone sees something that looks off, they'll ask, and improve it to a better standard. I've come to realize the group idea would take a long time to organize and put into actions.

Like Maruno said this group would work better if it was simply a sign in, work for a week to try things out and go. Maybe come back if you liked it.
So, more of a taster maybe, for new Developers to try their hands at a Fan game, without the hassle of work on a story and stuff.
 

Maruno

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Doing it the pass-it-around way is far longer and many ranges of content is added, leaving the game more like a random garbled mess.
Which will take longer: organising teams of people who are skilled in the various areas (particularly scripting) and who will stick around and continue working on this project, then making many polls about various bits of content to be added, finding the most popular ones, scrutinising them and passing them on to the actual game-makers... or telling the first volunteer: "here's a copy of Essentials, RBY plot, go"?

Which lets the average person feel more like part of the project: voting in a few polls... or being able to own the game for a week and being able to freely discuss ideas in the project's thread?

It won't become garbled, because there will be guidelines developed in-thread (which can be ignored, but will probably in practice be followed). If someone adds something that doesn't fit, the next person can remove it without permission (it no longer belongs to the previous person, after all). The garble will cancel itself out in the end. Some volunteers may even volunteer solely to help tidy things up rather than add new stuff (I know I may well do this).

There are two sides to this project: editing the game, and discussing the suggested aims/plot/whatever. They can be quite separate, although the latter should incorporate whatever the former does (even if just to say "someone please remove factor X") and be quite dynamic, and the former may well depend on what the latter says (if the volunteer that week wants to stick to the suggestions, which they probably will because liking the suggestions is probably why they volunteered in the first place). It's quite an interesting dynamic. People can participate in either/both sides, whatever they want.
 

Sunfished

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But realize that this was a community project working together to make a game. unless you decided at the get-go that this should be more of a teaching thing, I only see the inevitable fate of this to be full of fighting on what to keep, lone-wolf type of programming, and just slapping things together.

My earlier post was basically a shortened down version of how real gaming industries really handle projects. And with the classes and leaders thing set up, There would be no waiting times for content to be added in, allowing for a smoother and more controlled input of features.

While it may be longer than expected, it will turn out to be better in the long run.
 

Lord Varion

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Two things I'll be curious of:

Who's the 'Leader' going to be?
Of course this will most likely come down to voting (or some other method, feel free to suggest, of course the Leader would need to be fully motivated and prepared to keep track of all this.

Speaking of fully motivated, if the 'Leader' were to bail and get 'out' of the project, we'd need a Co-Leader or Vice-Leader to fill in the gap or if the 'Leader' is absent for IRL purposes, for the week.

But realize that this was a community project working together to make a game. unless you decided at the get-go that this should be more of a teaching thing, I only see the inevitable fate of this to be full of fighting on what to keep, lone-wolf type of programming, and just slapping things together.

My earlier post was basically a shortened down version of how real gaming industries really handle projects. And with the classes and leaders thing set up, There would be no waiting times for content to be added in, allowing for a smoother and more controlled input of features.

While it may be longer than expected, it will turn out to be better in the long run.

This isn't really a 'teaching' thing. Of course members volunteering would need to be able to know the basics of RMXP. It would more or less be a Skill testing group project, making a game at the end, but possibly and hopefully learninging what makes a good game or improving along the way how to make one.
Kind of like my college group, we start with knowing a little of GML (Game maker Language) and improve our skills, while making our own game as a submitable assignment for the end of the year.

Of course it will be long, maybe longer if required, but it'll be worth it, all games take time to be made to a marketable quality standard of course this project won't be marketed, don't wanna be sue'd now, do we?
 
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Sunfished

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Ah, I just realized how different our views are on this is.(zekrom/reshiram joke set aside)

Your idea is literally the "community" creates a game, putting a whole lot of emphasis on the community as a whole being able to bend the game as they personally themselves see fit.

Mine, however, is more of an emphasis on the "create" part, allowing the community create a game together, not in a literal tense, through the best ideas that the community as a whole decided.

Well, whatever you decide is really up to you, and I agree that the community should cooperate together and make something worthwhile. Its been nice constructively arguing with you.:P
 

DaSpirit

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As for the passing it around, it's a well good idea, but privately would work better, but in the Project's thread the last member who worked on it, must post Screenshots of their progress and their summary sheet, and any adaptations they have made to the Design Document, including the Document itself. The private way I can see is something like Google Drive, only people you want can access the downloadables. Which means we'd all have to get Google accounts.
I thought you wanted this to be a community project?

And what happens when two people work on two different things at once or even the same things at once? That could cause headaches. I think the best thing would be a source repository, although I don't know whether it RPG Maker has support for something like this.
 
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