Evolution removed from South Korean textbooks.

Evanlyn · Jun 6, 2012

You know, every single post that I have read in this thread, that were written by those of you who support evolution - they all have said something along the lines of 'Evolution is correct, we have the science and the facts' - but the thing is, nobody has given an example of even one scientific proof that they have! (so far, anyway..)

Now... I'm not saying that evolution shouldn't be taught! I mean, if the Christians want to argue agaisnt evolution, or if, somehow, they end up having to argue for evolution, they will need to know about it! So sure, go ahead. The problem I have is that it is taught as a fact. Darwin himself said that it was a theory. The problem I have is that people nowadays don't even give kids the option for Creation (around here anyway).

Ok sure, Creation takes a lot of faith to believe in.
But so does evolution! Seriously, let's start back at the beginning. The Big Bang. You honestly think that that happened 'by chance'? Everything in the whole universe was put in the exact right place. Earth is the exact right distance from the sun. By chance? Earth is on the exact right tilt. Earth has the exact right atmosphere to support Human Life.
Not to mention the life forms themselves.
Now, I don't know much about evolution (I grew up with creation. I am going to study evolution so I know more about it) So correct me if I'm wrong..
I don't know the complete beginning (if someone could tell me, I'd sure appreciate it!). But I do know that it is supposed that humans evolved from monkeys. Now, random changes in their DNA, slowly changed them until we get the modern-day human.
Ok sure, that seems like great sense! Sure, we evolved from monkeys. We even look something like monkeys. It all seems great..... but...
If we did evolve from monkeys; why are their still monkeys alive?
Oh and where's all the 'half-and-half' fossils? If all the current life-forms did evolve (or at least some of them!), people would surely have found a half-and-half fossil! A fossil halfway between one animal and another. But have they? no.
Anyway, I got a bit off topic there..

The human brain. It is about a quadrillion (just said a random number there - but it is big!) times more complex than your computer, or phone, or ipad, or whatever you're reading this post off of.
Now, if you got a piece of paper, and a pencil or pen, and if you just leave them on the table, and walk away. Will you get a book 'by chance'? No. Why? Because it needs careful planning. And for evolution, you think that everything in the universe happened by chance? I don't think so. Even for just a plant. Just a flower. It is complex. The structure, everything about it is complex. And you're telling me that this happened by chance? If it is by chance, then why doesn't something as simple as a relationship work out if we leave it 'to chance' heck, we've 'apparently' had billions of years to perfect relationships! And they're still mucking up every single day!

I'm just pointing out the logic here. It is logical, that for a group, that it will have a leader. Isn't it also logical that, for the universe, it would also have a leader? If you see an awesome painting, you will think 'what a great design, [so-and-so] was a great artist!' And yet, just by looking out of your window, you can see the most fantastic, a brilliant design, just right there. It's called real life. A painting is just a picture. Real life... it's a kazillion times more complicated. You have the physical, and the mental. And yet.. it's almost like nobody else in the world apart from me thinks 'What a great design, God was an awesome artist!'

Illuminaughty · Jun 6, 2012

Evanlyn said:
I'm just pointing out the logic here. It is logical, that for a group, that it will have a leader. Isn't it also logical that, for the universe, it would also have a leader? If you see an awesome painting, you will think 'what a great design, [so-and-so] was a great artist!' And yet, just by looking out of your window, you can see the most fantastic, a brilliant design, just right there. It's called real life. A painting is just a picture. Real life... it's a kazillion times more complicated. You have the physical, and the mental. And yet.. it's almost like nobody else in the world apart from me thinks 'What a great design, God was an awesome artist!'

Using this argument, you have established the idea of creationism/intelligent design as a philosophy. You came to a conclusion based solely on LOGIC and PHILOSOPHY. (Not science)

Therefore, it should be taught in a philosophy course.

Evolution uses facts from physics, chemistry, and biology to formulate a hypothesis. Therefore, although not proven, it should be taught alongside other science-based theories.

Evanlyn · Jun 6, 2012

Illuminaughty said:
Using this argument, you have established the idea of creationism/intelligent design as a philosophy. You came to a conclusion based solely on LOGIC and PHILOSOPHY. (Not science)

Therefore, it should be taught in a philosophy course.

Evolution uses facts from physics, chemistry, and biology to formulate a hypothesis. Therefore, although not proven, it should be taught alongside other science-based theories.

Yes I suppose I have, you're right.
The only problem would be that it may get confusing to the student if in one class he/she is told 'God made it all' and in the other he/she is told 'God didn't make it all'.
Yes, evolution should be taught as a theory. Just as I said before; it annoys me that people teach it as a fact..

droomph · Jun 6, 2012

Ha gawd I remember that song. "I don't believe in evolution, cuz' the Bible ain't tell us so. My daddy ain't a monkey, my grandpa isn't one too. I don't believe in evolution, cuz' the Bible ain't tell us so!" Gawd Idaho can be such a redneck place sometimes.

But yeah, there's evidence that minor evolution exists, while all the creationists have is "and on the seventh day yadayada".

I'm not by all means saying that creationists are bad and "hey y'all", but seriously. In a debate, no matter what an ancient book that doesn't even pertain to your religion anymore says, evidence wins.

So I still can't believe we sang that goddamn song every. Single. Sunday. I feel bad for the Asian kids in our church who had to go through that for ten more years. And now, I feel bad for them in South Korea, but we have our own stupidities, like ACTA and all that glorious stuff. Well good luck~

@Evalyn not to burst your bubble or anything but minor evolution (natural selection) has been proved somewhat. For example, the reason strains of bacteria and viruses (like tubercolosis) become resistant to medications, and why cockroaches are so damn hard to exterminate, is allllll evolution, albeit not physically and we call that "natural selection".

So yes, I'm not saying you're wrong about teaching it solely as a theory, but there is evidence of at least some kinds of evolution.

Oryx · Jun 6, 2012

Evanlyn said:
You know, every single post that I have read in this thread, that were written by those of you who support evolution - they all have said something along the lines of 'Evolution is correct, we have the science and the facts' - but the thing is, nobody has given an example of even one scientific proof that they have! (so far, anyway..)

Now... I'm not saying that evolution shouldn't be taught! I mean, if the Christians want to argue agaisnt evolution, or if, somehow, they end up having to argue for evolution, they will need to know about it! So sure, go ahead. The problem I have is that it is taught as a fact. Darwin himself said that it was a theory. The problem I have is that people nowadays don't even give kids the option for Creation (around here anyway).

Fun fact: gravity is a theory. A scientific theory is not the same as a layperson's theory. Here's a link that will get you up to date on the difference. It is taught as a scientific theory, not as a philosophical theory.

Ok sure, Creation takes a lot of faith to believe in.
But so does evolution! Seriously, let's start back at the beginning. The Big Bang. You honestly think that that happened 'by chance'? Everything in the whole universe was put in the exact right place. Earth is the exact right distance from the sun. By chance? Earth is on the exact right tilt. Earth has the exact right atmosphere to support Human Life.
Not to mention the life forms themselves.
Now, I don't know much about evolution (I grew up with creation. I am going to study evolution so I know more about it) So correct me if I'm wrong..
I don't know the complete beginning (if someone could tell me, I'd sure appreciate it!). But I do know that it is supposed that humans evolved from monkeys. Now, random changes in their DNA, slowly changed them until we get the modern-day human.
Ok sure, that seems like great sense! Sure, we evolved from monkeys. We even look something like monkeys. It all seems great..... but...
If we did evolve from monkeys; why are their still monkeys alive?
Oh and where's all the 'half-and-half' fossils? If all the current life-forms did evolve (or at least some of them!), people would surely have found a half-and-half fossil! A fossil halfway between one animal and another. But have they? no.
Anyway, I got a bit off topic there..

If you're going to talk about evolution, you should do some research on it before you start arguing for or against it. The problems you pointed out are very common arguments that have been debunked over and over and over for years and years, which is why people don't bother to debunk them for you specifically. Just like how if I was arguing Creationism I would make sure I knew as much as possible about it, please don't argue about evolution if you haven't done any relevant research at all.

The human brain. It is about a quadrillion (just said a random number there - but it is big!) times more complex than your computer, or phone, or ipad, or whatever you're reading this post off of.
Now, if you got a piece of paper, and a pencil or pen, and if you just leave them on the table, and walk away. Will you get a book 'by chance'? No. Why? Because it needs careful planning. And for evolution, you think that everything in the universe happened by chance? I don't think so. Even for just a plant. Just a flower. It is complex. The structure, everything about it is complex. And you're telling me that this happened by chance? If it is by chance, then why doesn't something as simple as a relationship work out if we leave it 'to chance' heck, we've 'apparently' had billions of years to perfect relationships! And they're still mucking up every single day!

See above. Research before you start coming up with random arguments that make no sense when you have a basic foundation on evolution. I'd just like to point this out though - if you had been taught evolution properly in school, you wouldn't seem so uneducated arguing it. You would know all these things already.

I'm just pointing out the logic here. It is logical, that for a group, that it will have a leader. Isn't it also logical that, for the universe, it would also have a leader? If you see an awesome painting, you will think 'what a great design, [so-and-so] was a great artist!' And yet, just by looking out of your window, you can see the most fantastic, a brilliant design, just right there. It's called real life. A painting is just a picture. Real life... it's a kazillion times more complicated. You have the physical, and the mental. And yet.. it's almost like nobody else in the world apart from me thinks 'What a great design, God was an awesome artist!'

The reason you say "Bob was a great artist" is because you have enough proof throughout your life to be able to make a reasonable assumption based on things such as "paint on canvas is not something discovered naturally". There is no reasonable proof for God like that. In addition, not all art is recognized as art. Take the person who just stuck a toilet to a wall. If you saw that, you wouldn't think "look at that art, who's the artist" or even think there was an artist until someone told you that it's supposed to be art. That's how the social consciousness shapes you from your birth, and that's how God doesn't relate at all to your argument.

In addition: it's also obvious that you haven't taken a Philosophy course based on your last post. That's not how Philosophy is taught at all - nothing is taught as a fact. I took Philosophy of Religion a few semesters ago and was taught "God exists", "God doesn't exist", "God exists but just made the universe and disappeared", "It's physically impossible for God to exist", "God exists but isn't all-powerful or all-good", and a host of other related theories. None of them are taught as fact. They're taught as viewpoints, and you're encouraged to follow the path you find most compelling based on the other arguments.

Full disclosure though, I do think that high schools should have a World Religions class, where they're taught the foundations of the biggest religions in the world. Not just Christianity, but Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and then a few smaller ones as well. But religion should not determine what's in a science class. Ever.

Livewire · Jun 6, 2012

<Insert a photo of an Archeopteryx here>

Really the only argument you need. There's a few dozen more.

Golurks Were Meant to Fly · Jun 6, 2012

Toujours, thank you for putting what I was going to say about Evanlyn's post in a much more eloquent manner haha. :)

also, that comment about the monkeys *facepalm*

I definitely think this whole thing is a giant step backwards for South Korea...
My view on it is that evolution should be taught since of all theories it seems to be one of the most well composed and accepted and supported by facts, therefore it should be taught in schools. I don't think religion, any religion at all should influence public schools or anything related to government, especially science. Sadly, this isn't the case at all. I 'm all for philosophy/debate classes. And plus, the whole concept of "fairness" that a lot of people have posted doesn't seem very fair at all... I feel like if one is to argue that creationalism should be taught in schools then one has to include all creationalist theories.

Well, those are my two cents on the matter :/

TRIFORCE89 · Jun 6, 2012

I'm assuming the reference to "creationists" meant Christians. I'm wondering which denomination? And how large is it in South Korea?

I went to a Catholic school and was taught evolution over creationism. The Catholic Church also endorses evolution.

I just find this whole thing really surprising

Ivysaur · Jun 7, 2012

It's nice to see that the world goes backwards instead of forwards. It's really sad when a religion can choose what can be taught and what can't outside of its area of expertise (moral and mythical explanations about stuff). Let the scientists decide what to teach in science classes and I'll let the priests teach stuff in their Churches.

Evanlyn · Jun 7, 2012

Toujours - you're right. I jumped in there without really thinking. I'm going to shut up and study now ;)

droomph · Jun 7, 2012

TRIFORCE89 said:
I'm assuming the reference to "creationists" meant Christians. I'm wondering which denomination? And how large is it in South Korea?

I went to a Catholic school and was taught evolution over creationism. The Catholic Church also endorses evolution.

I just find this whole thing really surprising

In my church, some say that Koreans are more devout Christians than any other country. (I heard they have prayer rooms in airports!) So it would make sense that they think of the evolution theory like that. However, I don't think that that's right, it's just how it is.

Esper · Jun 22, 2012

It seems that there has been a lot of backlash against the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology over these changes and they're now going to have panels to oversee future changes to textbooks. [click]

But that doesn't seem to be good enough for several evolutionary scientists and paleontologists in South Korea and they've made a statement to that effect. [click]

droomph · Jun 22, 2012

Well, as they said, dumb people are gonna be dumb so it's not worth trying to change the changes.

On a separate note, what types of "biased quotes" and stuff were there, I wonder? Science doesn't seem like a place to prove things by quotes...

Evolution removed from South Korean textbooks.

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