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Atheist Alliance

Gamzee

light my fire
38
Posts
12
Years
  • Seen Apr 23, 2012
I'd like to join. Pantheist, influenced by eastern religion and philosophies here.

Just to answer various questions I've seen posted throughout the thread:


- I'm completely for gay marriage and LGBT rights. This should be self explanatory. Being against these is discriminatory and wrong.
- Pro-choice. Woman's body, her choice.
- Death penalty is a no-no. No one has the right to take away another's life.
- Believe 100% in evolution
- Have never felt a religion being pressed on me in public school.
- I believe aliens might exist, though I doubt they've visited Earth.
- Family (and most friends) have no clue about my faith.
 

Phantom1

[css-div="font-size: 12px; font-variant: small-cap
1,182
Posts
12
Years
Phantom, what is Confirmation? Why is it sadder that you went through that than any of the other sacraments?


In the Catholic Church you go through seven Sacraments, there are four 'basic' ones that all Catholics need to go through and one before they die. In a Private Catholic school usually they are laid out for you when and where you receive your sacraments.

1. Baptism- Most are baptised as babies, within a few months after birth. (water marked over head, some stuff with a candle, blah blah blah)

2. Reconciliation (Confession)- In second grade we went through Reconciliation classes. Teaching us what we needed to do during Confession. Prayers, what you say to the priest etc. In fact I still the Act of Contrition... "O my God I am sorry for my sins. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good. I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do good, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Amen." I learned that when I was seven. IT'S BURNED INTO MY BRAIN.

3. Eucharist - you-car-ist- (Communion) For almost three months in second grade (along with Confession class they were taught at the same time in my school) how to receive the Eucharist. AKA Jesus in handy cracker form. Learned handy things like what to do if you drop the host, (EAT IT EAAT IT NOW!), and which hand goes over the other. (Create a cradle with your hands like you're holding baby Jesus kids! Left hand over right, and when the host is on your left hand pick it up with your right and deposit it on your tongue!)

4. Confirmation- the reason I am pissed that I went through Confirmation is because it finalized my 'commitment' to the Catholic Church. AKA the only way I can be 'removed' from it's list of worshippers is to be EXCOMMUNICATED DUNDUNDUN! Since we're Baptised as babies we go through final Confirmation when we're older, usually between 8-10th grade, through a month long class and community service and a large Mass lead by the Archbishop. We even take a Saint's name. I chose St. Elizabeth. You receive a handy oil cross on your forehead and say "Yep I believe!"

5. Marriage- obvious

6 Holy Orders- Becoming clergy, nun, priest etc.

7. Last Rites- Get blessed and freed of sin before you die.


All this stuff, implanted in my brain. Hell I went to a funeral for my great grandfather two weeks ago. And during the Mass I kept having this feeling like I should be doing something. (Leftover I assume from being a server for so long.)


In short Shining Raichu: I am pissed I went through Confirmation because I am now solidified in the Catholic Church, and can't be otherwise removed. I didn't want it, but my parent's forced me into it. Now that I'm an adult I want free, but I ask every priest if there is a way to remove me from the list of Confirmed but it's impossible without literally being Excommunicated. Which funnily is very hard to do nowadays.
 

Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font
5,176
Posts
18
Years
  • Age 27
  • Seen Feb 13, 2019
My mom wants me to do a Confirmation as well. She's not very pressuring about it, but she doesn't seem to understand that my beliefs are not a simple phase.

But besides, even if you do undergo all the rituals of the Catholic church, it doesn't really matter if you decide you are not Catholic anymore. It's just fancy superstitious rituals, and it's not hard to explain that the Catholic church is just throwing stubborn tantrums if you can't remove yourself from some list.

Well, the Catholic church's fancy mathematics was part of the reason we have Protestants: People who hated the church but still kept its superstitions.
 

Misheard Whisper

[b][color=#FF0000]I[/color] [color=#FF7F00]also[/c
3,488
Posts
15
Years
I went through Confirmation as well when I was eight years old, and it's one of the biggest regrets of my life. I stop just short of hating my church for it, because I really try not to feel that way about anyone, but it really, really pisses me off. Mostly because I was never given a choice. I was never even told that there was a choice. I took Religious Education classes for my first few years at school, and Confirmation was put up on this pedestal as something that everybody did. The teachers told us, "When you turn eight, you will be Confirmed," and that was it. It was simply taken for granted that we would do it without actually explaining why.

The sickest part of that, actually, is this: Confirmation is designed so that you can, essentially, renew your baptism. It's a little more complicated than that, but at the most basic level, you repeat the binding to the Church you received at birth, but you do it at an age where you have free will and knowledge of what is happening. This supposedly makes you a 'willing' Catholic. The terrible irony is that I didn't have free will or knowledge of what was happening. I was never told of an alternative. I didn't even know that not everybody was Confirmed. Because I was eight years old and my teachers and parents told me so, I took it for granted that it was a set event in my life.

There was a lot of that sort of thing all through my Catholic school education, but that is of course the most egregious case. The other sacraments like Reconciliation just made me feel silly. I went in and sat next to the priest, but I had no idea what to say. I mean, of course nobody's perfect, but I was a good little kid. When he asked how I had sinned, I had no idea, so I just told him I wasn't doing the dishes at home as often as I was supposed to be. I hadn't stolen anything, I hadn't hit anybody, I hadn't cheated on my homework. That's more of a funny anecdote than a sad one, though.

Another one involves the fact that I wasn't aware of other religions. It went awfully similarly to PhantomX0990's story with the second-grader, though, so I won't go into any more detail.
 

FrostPheonix

Eternity.
449
Posts
13
Years
Kind of zoned out, so no idea what the discussion is abt... something abt confirmation being forced upon you?
Anyways, I just saw a 2012 theory (again) about some kind of solar storm foreseen by NASA scientists. Turned out to be a hoax. But, got me thinking, do you guys believe in the end of the world? If you do, when do you think it will happen, and through what means? Doesn't have to be 2012 I guess, just an end sometime in the future?
 
760
Posts
14
Years
  • Seen Dec 16, 2016
The city of Hamburg have a higher percentage of people who dion't belong to a religious group than people who are.
 

XEL

Lorem Ipsum
491
Posts
16
Years
  • Age 30
  • Seen Nov 20, 2022
Not quite an atheist since I consider myself an agnostic humanist, but sign me up! ^^
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
Of course you can join Pudz, even Christians can join if they so wish so you are more than welcome :D - and welcome to Gamzee too! I keep forgetting about this club, I'm so bad. Whenever I come to Other Clubs I always think of the LGBT Club and then forget about this D:

Confirmation sounds like a terrible idea. Like, it kind of crosses the line from identifying with a religion and choosing to be a part of one, to being inducted and sealed in.

And regarding the article, those tweets and statuses are disgusting! This one in particular I found disturbing:

Screenshot_44.png


They're just pissed off because she won and they lost. The reason it was important that the prayer be taken down was that education shouldn't be based on religion. That banner sends a dangerous message to the world, and the fact that she is persecuted for bringing about change is horrifying. And the violent messages that come from the Christians who pride themselves on love... well wow, it's amazing religion is becoming less popular with every passing day, isn't it?
 

FrostPheonix

Eternity.
449
Posts
13
Years
truth be told, I'm appalled at what those comments said... no wonder Christians get bad remarks these days :(. I'm christian myself, and sure, I think she made a bit too much of a deal about a banner, but really? Those comments just pissed me off. What in the world are they thinking? Sometimes I wish people think before they comment. And not just about how angry they are, to think some common sense. Almost all of them are just giving Christians a bad name... :*( That is, the first few comments did.
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
...aaanyway.

This is something I can't believe I never thought to mention - it has been nearly two months now and we are an atheist club that never even acknowledged it. Famous atheistic writer Christopher Hitchens, author of my favourite anti-theistic text "God Is Not Great", unfortunately passed away. He was a great man and an amazing influence on the world, and it is terrible that he couldn't live into his golden years doing what he did best.
 
3,499
Posts
17
Years
  • Seen Jul 16, 2013
SUP ATHEISTS (and non-atheists too!). Another atheist here, looking to join~

To go back on the topic on Confirmation: I was actually baptized Catholic and went through my first Communion when I was seven because I was still somewhat religious then. But in grade eight (when I was more or less agnostic), I refused to do Confirmation because I didn't want to choose Catholicism for myself. I was the only person in my class to make this decision and it made me feel special for some reason haha. My friend (who actually isn't baptized therefore she's not eligible for Confirmation) and I skipped school on the day of our class' Confirmation retreat and stayed at her place playing Kingdom Hearts like REBELS.

but tl;dr I didn't want to choose Catholicism for myself so to this day I have not been confirmed and I'm okay with that. :D
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
YAY Saryka has joined us! :D

I actually until this club had no idea that confirmation was a thing. It just seems like such a toxic concept - it's almost like a grab for control. Like, "OK, so you're Catholic, right? You're CONFIRMED. No changing your mind now, you're in!"
 

Phantom1

[css-div="font-size: 12px; font-variant: small-cap
1,182
Posts
12
Years
Yeah. Plus it takes quite some time. Classes for it here were about a month long and about four hours a night.
 

Shanghai Alice

Exiled to Siberia
1,069
Posts
13
Years
I actually until this club had no idea that confirmation was a thing. It just seems like such a toxic concept - it's almost like a grab for control. Like, "OK, so you're Catholic, right? You're CONFIRMED. No changing your mind now, you're in!"
It isn't, actually, and I honestly don't know where you received that information.

Confirmation is, more or less, exactly what it says. You're confirming your belief, and vowing to defend the faith.

You can leave whenever you please, and nobody will stop you. The entire idea of the close-minded Catholic Cult Mafia Illuminati is... absurd.



To get back on to the topic at hand.

I was actually confirmed at the age of fourteen, while going through a pretty rough patch in my life. Before anyone asks, no, I didn't "Come to JAYSUS" and be blinded by the wonderful light. Quite the opposite, I pretty much... just stopped caring about a lot of things.

Being raised by lenient Catholic parents (the ones that teach their children to live an upstanding life, rather than trying to bring back the Bible-thumping Great Awakening), I was fairly comfortable with my faith, but, being fourteen, I still had several questions.

And, "surprisingly enough", I reached satisfactory answers by reason. I had a decent, competent religion teacher (something that most people seem to be deprived of, because apparently schools hire mostly strawmen nowadays...), a sub captain from WW2, who explained and argued, rather than simply saying "X is correct, all else is wrong."

When I was confirmed, I was no seminary student. I was no Biblical scholar, or walking catechism.

However, when I was confirmed, I felt strong enough in my ideals that, yes, I actually would stand up for them.

Two years later, I still believe that people should be treated with love, killing is wrong, and giving to others is good.

I do believe that there are a lot of lunatics that have distorted the message of Christianity, and I hope that they wake up and learn the truth of what they claim to teach. I acknowledge that horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of the Church, but I also note the good that is done as well.

I do not believe, nor do I demand, that a religious organization should be absolutely perfect to be correct, as I acknowledge that human weakness is part of reality.

I think that the black-and-white "Either God gives me X or He's wrong" way of thinking is patently false, and I think that the outright rejection of religion at the drop of a hat shows that the person was never truly religious, and I would appreciate it if we could cease the strawman burning.


I believe in basic goodness, in kindness and compassion. Though I know there are several people who could name Little Mrs. O'Leary down at the Church who advocates the murder of homosexuals, I could also name three of the greatest men I have ever met, who radiate such a quiet serenity about them that it's almost impossible to think that there's really nothing more to them than flesh and bone.


Of course, I can already see the inevitable accusations of brainwash and lunacy, but all I can is that I have a fairly open mind, so I ask that you all have the same. Understanding is not achieved through snipes, potshots, and anger. Understanding is achieved through civil discussion and dialog.


So, yes.

I am a Catholic, I was a Catholic, and I will be a Catholic.



EDIT: For the lulz, here's an article from Cracked that is sure to provoke... discussion.
 
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Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
I didn't receive any information lol - I was describing the vibe I got from the concept. Though "confirming your belief and vowing to defend the faith," while not being on the level of a 'Cult Mafia Illuminati', certainly goes toward my point. There might not be people beating you up if you try to leave, but it's certainly consistent with some sort of mental or emotional trap that would make it more difficult for somebody to leave if they begin to have doubts.
 

Shanghai Alice

Exiled to Siberia
1,069
Posts
13
Years
I didn't receive any information lol - I was describing the vibe I got from the concept.
That's how misunderstandings occur. If I were to simply write an unfounded opinion, I would be butchered for posting drivel.

Though "confirming your belief and vowing to defend the faith," while not being on the level of a 'Cult Mafia Illuminati', certainly goes toward my point.
It does not, actually. It's saying that, yes, the person is fully aware of what they're saying, and believe it's correct.

I don't understand why, nowadays, standing by your beliefs is considered evil and close-minded. If I am intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, I should have no problem with confirming that I believe in it.

All those who said that they were "pressured" into Confirmation never received a valid confirmation.


There might not be people beating you up if you try to leave, but it's certainly consistent with some sort of mental or emotional trap that would make it more difficult for somebody to leave if they begin to have doubts.
You mean people should be hesitant to switch their beliefs?

Well, yes, I do believe they should be. Otherwise, those beliefs weren't very well rooted, were they?



However, I understand that, in today's society, conviction is considered naive.


Personally, if you want a summary of what I consider Christianity, I would advise you to read C.S. Lewis.

Yes, even Narnia. It's not the Christians trying to shoehorn Jesus into fantasy, it's people realizing that Lewis was a Christian, and a brilliant one at that.

Yes, you can be Christian and brilliant. For further reading, see Chesterton.
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
That's how misunderstandings occur. If I were to simply write an unfounded opinion, I would be butchered for posting drivel.
I never claimed it to be anything other than what it was lol

Shanghai Alice said:
I don't understand why, nowadays, standing by your beliefs is considered evil and close-minded. If I am intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, I should have no problem with confirming that I believe in it.
That's not what I was saying at all; if it were evil or close-minded to stand by your beliefs, this club would not exist. A person of any faith can affirm and stick with their beliefs all they like; I would expect no different and I have experienced no different. The issue I take is with the formal Confirmation structure set up by the Church itself, which makes it seem like some Holy door through which one has passed and would in my opinion create a further psychological barrier against leaving the Church should a person ever feel so inclined. My issue is not so much with the fact that it would make it more difficult to leave as it is that it seems designed specifically for that purpose. You may hold your Church in high esteem and believe them to be above such intentional manipulation, but I can assure you that I do not.

Shanghai Alice said:
Yes, you can be Christian and brilliant.
I have no doubt. Brilliance is not faith-based, but rather founded on qualities external of religious belief entirely.
 

Shanghai Alice

Exiled to Siberia
1,069
Posts
13
Years
I never claimed it to be anything other than what it was lol
Actually, if you'll look back, you openly admit to simply building a strawman and posting it as fact. If you're going to speak on religion, like a true Atheist, you would, at the very least, research and understand the thing you are attempting to oppose, in order to form valid, well-constructed arguments.

I'm seeing none of that here, and I'm seeing a disturbing amount of questions that go along the lines of, "When did you realize you were better than the institution?"

I came here for intelligent discussion and rational debate about life, science, and such things. The majority of what I'm reading falls more along the lines of an average "Rebel" thread on the internet, with everyone patting themselves on the back telling themselves how cool they are.



That's not what I was saying at all; if it were evil or close-minded to stand by your beliefs, this club would not exist. A person of any faith can affirm and stick with their beliefs all they like; I would expect no different and I have experienced no different.
Looking back, the posts in this thread would argue with you. However, let's move on.

The issue I take is with the formal Confirmation structure set up by the Church itself, which makes it seem like some Holy door through which one has passed and would in my opinion create a further psychological barrier against leaving the Church should a person ever feel so inclined.
Because you've made a commitment, and a man's word isn't to be taken lightly?

Once again, you're confusing the stories of "The mean man made me say things I didn't like!" with "I received a valid Confirmation in the Holy Roman Catholic Church."

I took my Confirmation voluntarily. I as a rational, capable human being when I did so, and I did it of my own will. So many adults do so as well.

As for the children who claimed that they never wanted to do it... I'm actually on their side. I believe that schoolchildren should not have to get Confirmation, and it seems that many in the Church are shifting that way.

However, I simply ask people to remember that nobody forced them to agree to anything. "Peer pressure" is not a valid excuse, because I would expect the rational, intelligent people in here to choose their own path in life and have the cojones to stand up to things they don't believe in. The sticking point is that I believe that standing up should be done in a rational, mature way. I am seeing little of that here, and more of people sticking it to the man.

If you're going to argue Confirmation, then please do a little research. At the moment, you're denouncing something which is entirely of your own creation, something imaginary. The evil, evil occult ritual which you claim to dislike is one that is entirely of your own creation, with almost no basis in reality.

And yes, there are reasonable, thinking people that defend Confirmation. Reasonable, thinking men that see it as something besides some blood pact meant to coerce people into slavery.

My issue is not so much with the fact that it would make it more difficult to leave as it is that it seems designed specifically for that purpose.
It's designed to give people an opportunity to reaffirm their beliefs.

I'm going to ask you again, because I don't think I've gotten a straight answer from you yet.

If someone says they believe in something, and then they voluntarily confirm their beliefs, should they not be held to their word?

I'm old-fashioned. I believe that, yes, people should be held accountable for what they say and do. Not because of a higher power, but because that's what mature individuals do. If you say you do not believe, so be it. But to say that you believe, and then say something along the lines of "Neener neener, had my fingers crossed!", can hardly be called intelligent denial. If anything, it's the opposite.

You may hold your Church in high esteem and believe them to be above such intentional manipulation, but I can assure you that I do not.
My Church, as you call it, is run by humans. Humans are flawed, and beautifully so. Flawed humans cause schoolchildren to cry and weep later in their lives.

The original Sacraments established by Jesus Christ, however, are not flawed. As I said, a distorted sacrament that is done against the recipients will is an invalid sacrament. Therefore, as I said, when you argue against the coercive sacrament, you are arguing and fighting something that does not truly exist.

I have no doubt. Brilliance is not faith-based, but rather founded on qualities external of religious belief entirely.

Such as rational thought, reasoning, and mastery of logic.

May I recommend Aquinas and, once again, Lewis?
 
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