Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[ABYAY]

I have a Skarmory, but I rarely use it seeing as with Forretress, he can Spin and setup, although he can't phaze. It also allows me to freely keep a mixed wall position open for a non-spinner, such as Swampert or Vaporeon, both which guard Forry decently well except against MixApe (where Vappy will be nailed by Close Combat, although Vappy will come out on top.)

So are there any other big issues of pokemon going around now that should be looked at?

[Ooka]

Well, even though I love the thing, and I hate using OU, I have been seeing quite a bit of Charizards lately...

[sims796]

I have a question about the rules. Say I'm in a battle, and I currently put one of his pokes to sleep. I have no pokes to sleep at all. Now, i have a Grumpig out, & they have out Breloom. They're thinking "heh, time to put this piggy to sleep!" & uses Spore. I predict that & use Magic Coat, putting Breloom to sleep as well. Does that mean I broke Sleep Clause? No, right? I mean, they didn't have t use Spore, and I had to defend myself of it.

[_Prince_]

Originally Posted by sims796

I have a question about the rules. Say I'm in a battle, and I currently put one of his pokes to sleep. I have no pokes to sleep at all. Now, i have a Grumpig out, & they have out Breloom. They're thinking "heh, time to put this piggy to sleep!" & uses Spore. I predict that & use Magic Coat, putting Breloom to sleep as well. Does that mean I broke Sleep Clause? No, right? I mean, they didn't have t use Spore, and I had to defend myself of it.

You're not really breaking the sleep clause. You're only trying to defend yourself. Then again I'm not too sure but I'm about 90% sure that's not breaking the clause.

[Ooka]

Originally Posted by sims796

I have a question about the rules. Say I'm in a battle, and I currently put one of his pokes to sleep. I have no pokes to sleep at all. Now, i have a Grumpig out, & they have out Breloom. They're thinking "heh, time to put this piggy to sleep!" & uses Spore. I predict that & use Magic Coat, putting Breloom to sleep as well. Does that mean I broke Sleep Clause? No, right? I mean, they didn't have t use Spore, and I had to defend myself of it.

Actually, unfortunately for you, yes, it is. Because you have to think of it along the lines of, if you're Pokemon hadn't been there, they wouldn't have 2 Pokemon asleep. Now when it comes to Rest, even if the Opponent didn't have out a Pokemon, they could have 2 Pokemon asleep. in other words, it was your fault that 2 of their Pokes are asleep.

[ABYAY]

Actually, I don't think it does. This goes back to one situation. We go back to the Wobbuffet vs. Sleeper situation. Sleeper uses sleep move, but misses. Wobb Encores it. Now the sleeper can't switch out. Say Wobb stays in and gets put to sleep. Then, Wobb switches out, but you still can't choose any other move. They bring in Pory-Z, and it's put to sleep. This situation doesn't break sleep clause because it was forced upon the opponent itself. The user had no choice.

This way is almost similar. What if you're expecting a Toxic (lol)? You'll want to Magic Coat it back. Therefore, this is like saying "Hey, you did this to yourself," which in this case, it's literal. Grumpig didn't use Spore, but Breloom did.

[Ooka]

Originally Posted by ABYAY

Actually, I don't think it does. This goes back to one situation. We go back to the Wobbuffet vs. Sleeper situation. Sleeper uses sleep move, but misses. Wobb Encores it. Now the sleeper can't switch out. Say Wobb stays in and gets put to sleep. Then, Wobb switches out, but you still can't choose any other move. They bring in Pory-Z, and it's put to sleep. This situation doesn't break sleep clause because it was forced upon the opponent itself. The user had no choice.

This way is almost similar. What if you're expecting a Toxic (lol)? You'll want to Magic Coat it back. Therefore, this is like saying "Hey, you did this to yourself," which in this case, it's literal. Grumpig didn't use Spore, but Breloom did.

No, but also Grumpig wasn't trapped in and stuck on using the same move over and over again. The user had the option of 3 other moves and 5 other Pokemon, but chose to use the 1 move that would put the opponent's Pokemon to sleep.

[ABYAY]

but again, there's one thing; Other status conditions. Okay I know it's common sense to not run Toxic on a Breloom. However, these days, noob trainers might. That's one key factor. Since it reflects back any status or even Leech seed, it's unpredictable. Therefore, the "You did this to yourself" thing applies again. Also, you see that it reflects back Leech Seed, so again, another issue.

[Anti]

I have to ask a question about all of these ubers all of a sudden becoming standard pokemon...what exactly does an uber pokemon need to become standard? and vice-versa.

If people are pointing to counters and whatnot, then by that logic Rayquaza would also be OU since a lot of our steel walls beat it. I mean really, last I checked uber pokemon were pokemon with movepools and/or stats and/or typing (you get it) that made them too much of a burden to deal with in OUs. I mean, we're testing the Lati@s...I must ask what exactly the criteria is for this, because all this limbo tier madness is seriously confusing.

[World King]

In what I think, It's because of the limited movepool or their base stat spread. For example, Deoxys-E has an outstanding speed, but in other stats, it's an average one. And Celebi, for example has an amazing 7 weaknesses, and most Biis will be baton passes, so it's pretty counterable.

[Dark Azelf]

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop

I have to ask a question about all of these ubers all of a sudden becoming standard pokemon...what exactly does an uber pokemon need to become standard? and vice-versa.

If people are pointing to counters and whatnot, then by that logic Rayquaza would also be OU since a lot of our steel walls beat it. I mean really, last I checked uber pokemon were pokemon with movepools and/or stats and/or typing (you get it) that made them too much of a burden to deal with in OUs. I mean, we're testing the Lati@s...I must ask what exactly the criteria is for this, because all this limbo tier madness is seriously confusing.

lol Rayquaza IS NOT walled by steel walls , it has Overheat /Fire Blast / Flamethrower coming from base 150 sp.att =/. Hell even EQ.


Max hp / max def skarmory takes like 47% from a DD Life Orb'd Outrage with Stealth Rock, thats a 2hko, which is really broken. Again, if a pokemon with such high def takes that much from an Outrage really that tells me something is wrong. It's standard set is DD/EQ/Overheat/Outrage, this hits every pokemon in the game for at least neutral damage, and coming off such a high attack stat at Ray Ray, really, it has no counters this side of Arceus and possibly Lugia and Groudon. Dialga can to an extent switch into outrages. " I can revenge kill it with Ice Shard" again, whilst this is viable, really that is not countering squat, Rayquaza gets Extremespeed and there is always the possibility of Yache Berry.






But this is Obi's post about how he feels its mostly determined.

Overcentralization

The argument here (most often used with regard to Kyogre and Groudon, the weather ubers) is that if we allow a Pokemon, there will be less usable Pokemon. "If you allow Kyogre, no one will use Luvdisc, Suicune, Milotic, Butterfree, Pikachu, or Geodude, and all teams will be forced to carry their own Kyogre and a Ludicolo, so there will be less usable Pokemon." This argument is entirely statistical. That means that if this is the reason for uberizing a Pokemon, we can use the Shoddy usage list to verify whether this argument holds water. This is the most objective of all the definitions of uber.

No counters

This is the main reason for the complaints behind Wobbuffet and, for different reasons, Deoxys-S. I'll start with Wobbuffet, because it's easier to discuss with regards to the "no counters" situation.

Wobbuffet's ability, Shadow Tag, means nothing can switch out of it. A counter by definition must be able to switch in. Unless the Pokemon out is holding a Shed Shell, has Baton Pass or U-turn, or has Role Play, Skill Swap, or is also Wobbuffet (or Wynaut), you cannot bring a counter in on Wobbuffet. Proponents of this argument must address the issue of Dugtrio, Trapinch, Magneton, Magnezone, and Probopass.

For other Pokemon, the "no counters" argument takes a slightly more vague reasoning. Imagine a Pokemon with 500 base Attack, Special Attack, and Speed. This Pokemon could OHKO anything it faces (and is faster than everything), so the only way to stop it would be with priority moves like Quick Attack, Extremespeed, and Sucker Punch (or an opposing version of itself that is faster). However, unless there were a similarly defensive Pokemon, you couldn't bring in any of these Pokemon to stop it, and thus you'd be forced to sacrifice something to bring in your "counter", and it would likely switch out and come in later to repeat the cycle. Here, the problem isn't that you cannot switch in at all, but that you cannot switch in safely. Obviously this is more extreme than any real example, but Pokemon like Deoxys-A and Mewtwo are similar to this scenario.

Alternately, consider the case of a Pokemon with base 500 HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Here, you can switch in safely (assuming it has low-average offenses), but once you're in, you can't do anything. A counter must be able to switch in safely and threaten the Pokemon it is said to be countering. I may be able to switch in Milotic safely on a Substitute, Calm Mind, Surf, Ice Beam Kyogre, but what am I going to do as it Calm Minds up?

Luck

One of the arguments surrounding Garchomp is that Sand Veil means that even if you have a counter for it, you may not be able to stop it thanks to Sand Veil missing. The more luck influences Pokemon, the less skill does.

Hyper-offensive Pokemon like Deoxys-A also have an element of luck. You are forced to make guesses as to what move it will use and what set it has as soon as it comes out. This decision is forced before you can possibly have enough information to stop "guessing" and begin "predicting".

This is one of the major arguments in favor of banning Double Team / Minimize and OHKOs.

This is probably the most subjective reason of all, as you have to make a judgment on how much luck is too much (or whether the increased element is even there to begin with).

That sums it up pretty well i think. There are other minor things, but realistically those are the 3 main factors i believe.


With these so called "ubers" getting moved down, is the way that the above doesnt really apply to them, Deoxys Speed was automatically moved up straight into uber in advance, no test, people just saw its awesome movepool and insane speed and the fact its name is "Deoxys". In reality it has mediocre everything apart from its speed, it cant sweep for jack, infact cant do anything good apart from revenge kill. People again didnt look at Garchomp in depth, they just saw it as another 600 BS poke, which cannot be uber, they didnt look at what damage this thing can really do and the fact it has no 100% counter. Latias is under consideration atm, because it has counter and down falls and without Soul Dew, steels, pursuit, specs set is walled easily. DD set is laughed at by bronzong and Skarmory etc and with no good fire move, it walled all day long due to movest syndrome, and is an inferior mence/Nite. Calm mind set also has movest syndrome, Recover/CM/ two attacking moves DOES NOT cover everything and is impossible to not get walled. It also has common weaknesses, Ice, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, Bug, all team with have at least one move that is SE on it.

[Aquilae]

Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf

With these so called "ubers" getting moved down, is the way that the above doesnt really apply to them, Deoxys Speed was automatically moved up straight into uber in advance, no test, people just saw its awesome movepool and insane speed and the fact its name is "Deoxys". In reality it has mediocre everything apart from its speed, it can sweep for jack, infact cant do anything good apart from revenge kill.

Just to clarify, Deoxys-E is probably the best revenge killer in D/P outspeeding and threatening many pokemon, including Scarfers. Now back to the discussion at hand:

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop

I have to ask a question about all of these ubers all of a sudden becoming standard pokemon...what exactly does an uber pokemon need to become standard? and vice-versa.

If people are pointing to counters and whatnot, then by that logic Rayquaza would also be OU since a lot of our steel walls beat it. I mean really, last I checked uber pokemon were pokemon with movepools and/or stats and/or typing (you get it) that made them too much of a burden to deal with in OUs. I mean, we're testing the Lati@s...I must ask what exactly the criteria is for this, because all this limbo tier madness is seriously confusing.

Smogon is testing the Ubers for OU because they wanted to gauge whether it would have a negative impact on the metagame. Advance is Advance, D/P is D/P. The prejudices emanating from Advance contributes to the sketchy state of the tiers. UU/BL is unconfirmed and more or less based on Advance, but people are arguing about the tier placement of Pinsir among others that got a boost in D/P.

Deoxys-S posed a much greater threat in Advance due to outspeeding the whole metagame and lack of priority moves to down it with. It has taken a hit in D/P following the introduction of Choice Scarf and common sweepers who run priority moves - Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, Ice Shard.

In my opinion, the things that need to be confirmed before testing are the changes made to the pokemon in D/P. The physical/special split makes D/P a very different game than Advance, boosting Pursuit and other moves. The performance of the pokemon in a given tier also has to be considered, even though people say that the tier placement of a pokemon has no relation to its strength.
For example, Deoxys-S can't do anything in Ubers except revenge kill, and it is far overshadowed by its other form Deoxys-A. That is part of the reason why Shoddy decided to test it in the first place.
Another example is Wobbuffet, which isn't a good fit in Ubers consdering the vast number of strong sweepers that run amok in Ubers. Wobbuffet got seriously hampered by the introduction of Choice Specs and Life Orb, and is too fragile to be brought in against sweepers.
As in Obi's post, the main reason is overcentralisation around a particular threat. Groudon and Kyogre are firmly Uber due to their complete changing of the metagame introducing weather-starting moves. That way people would use more weather changers and more Swift Swimmers and pokemon that generally work well in said weather conditions, leaving certain pokemon untouched. If Rayquaza were to be introduced into the metagame, it would certainly force everyone to carry a defensive Steel-type to counter it.

[sims796]

Originally Posted by Ooka

No, but also Grumpig wasn't trapped in and stuck on using the same move over and over again. The user had the option of 3 other moves and 5 other Pokemon, but chose to use the 1 move that would put the opponent's Pokemon to sleep.

But that's where I would refer to what ABYAY said. I do have the right to defend myself, and as such, I have the right to reflect such moves. For all I know, it COULD use Toxic, it COULD use Leech Seed. Just because one of his pokes are asleep, doesn't mean he automatically gets to put one of mine to sleep, if the only way I can defend myself is with Magic Coat.

It sounds dumb, but anyone using a status move on Grumpig runs the risk of having iti bounced back to them.

[Dark Azelf]

I strongly disagree with Wobby being moved down, i didnt see it until now.


1. It has no counters and cant be countered.

2. it causes Over centralization, why should i have to use Taunt and Toxic Spikes just to kill that thing ? You do realize it can survive a Scarf Heracross's Megahorn and a Black Glasses boosted Crunch from Jolly Tyranitar right ? < Thats just how hard it is to get rid of.

3. Shoddy sucks ass, so dont even base it getting moved down on that, the only reason its still OU there is because players dont use it out of respect for other players. So usage statistics there are unreliable due to the fact that they show it not being number 1 on usage and dont make the item shed shed shell appear more, if players freely used it, the item and taunt use would go through the roof. Even most players on smogon actually are against it.

4. Why should i even bother using Swords Dance or Dragon Dance any more =/, Hell support moves in general ? if it encores one im as good as swept, its just a frikkin free switch in for Belly Zard or some other crap.


Please, some things i can understand, but Wobby is stupid and needs to be put back where it belongs, that being uber. Where other broken crap with no counters belongs.

Deoxys, cant sweep for jack so i agree with that, like ive said before and really is only a good revenge killer so is Ou, im fine with that.

Garchomp is broke, can be debatable, but yeah.

Wobby, is just broke.

[BeachBoy]

sims796, I would agree, your not breaking the sleep clause by defending yourself like that, in my opinion, becuase again, who knows what their throwing, and I disagree with the whole it's your fualt deal. As... it could be a variety of moves. I say not breaking.

Anyway, on Deoxys, D_A It can sweep, it's annoying to offensive teams. o_o" Just saying that though, anyway I'm don't know much about D-speed seeing as I tend to ignore it completely. I don't know much on it, so... yeah, I guess I'll go with what you guys think. I can't really relay my opinion on it.

And Anti, I believe all of this metagame change is because we are trying to find that "balanced" metagame we all want. And that there really is no universal line in the sand, so why not test the metagame about certian things. -shrugs-

DEBATE TIME:

Okay discussion for the three - to two - controversal pocket monsters....

I'm interested in other opinions, mine change way too easily so I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on the three changers...

Deoxys Speed.
Wobby.
Garchomp.

Opinions on each?

[Aquilae]

I'm just going to debate about Wobbuffet here.

Lets look at the reasons why Wobbuffet should be banned to Ubers:

1. It is "irritating" and supposedly "sucks the fun" out of every game its in
2. It has no counters
3. It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag, especially walls
4. It is "cheap"

Point 1:
It is irritating.

Competitive pokemon will never be about fun. Wobbuffet is there, live with it. Cresselia and Blissey are irritating, but we don't ban them, right?

Point 2:
It has no counters.

The "no counters" argument has been thrown around a lot of times, and it is worth noting that the top tier pokemon also have "no counters" at first.
Take Heracross. It is "stopped completely by Gliscor", or so they say. In reality, you could just slap an LO and HP Ice on Heracross, and Gliscor would be neutered. A more practical moveset would be this:

Heracross @ Burn Orb
Guts
Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Swords Dance
Megahorn
Close Combat
Facade

After a Swords Dance, Heracross reaches 1149 Attack, enough to do more than 85% to a standard Gliscor, standing a 2.56% chance of KOing it, with Stealth Rock down a 79.49% chance of KOing it.

The definition of a counter:

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

Variants of Gliscor without AA would not counter a Sub/SD Heracross. The set listed above shows that Gliscor would not be able to switch in against Heracross without taking significant damage or being KOed. Skarmory and Hippowdon fall to Close Combat.

Wobbuffet has no counters simply because of its ability. It should be treated as seperate from the conventional pokemon as "counters" do not apply to it.

The "no counters" does not show its strength and brokenness.

Point 3:
It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag and Encore, including walls.

A lot of people overestimate Wobbuffet's defensive capabilities as well as its ability to deal with other pokemon. Wobbuffet gains the Psychic type, a liability this generation with the introduction of Pursuit, physical Dark moves and Special Shadow Ball.
Wobbuffet has no notable resistances that could be exploited in the switchin, as most pokemon who carry Psychic or Fighting moves have something to deal with Wobbuffet.

So, Wobbuffet can't come in on sweepers. But what about walls? Wobbuffet could easily come in and let something setup right?

Not really. If Wobbuffet comes in on, say Blissey, you could select a non-damaging move and proceed to see a setup sweeper coming in. In reality however, you have to have something to deal with setup sweepers, be it revenge killing, entry hazards or effective walling.

Wobbazard got hurt by Stealth Rock. A lot.

Okay, time for the infamous and arguably the best Wobbuffet set in existence.

"TickleWobb"

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Shadow Tag
Lonely (+Atk -Def), 128 Def/128 SpD/252 Speed

Encore
Tickle
Counter
Mirror Coat

The nature is not a mistake as on the rare occassions Wobb with Tickle was handed out it had a predetermined Lonely nature.

Strategy is simple. Come in on a wall's non damaging move, Encore, the higher speed would lock the non-damaging move in, and start Tickling and refresh Encore whenever you want.
After getting it to -6 Def (Tickle), send in CBTyranitar and Pursuit.

This set is rare because of the complete non-existence of Tickle Wobbuffet in the WiFi metagame. As such, it is not a great threat, and discussions are now undergoing in Shoddy about whether event moves should be banned given the restricted IVs and Nature for it.

As such, only the Tickle Wobbuffet merits further discussion, but the standards don't really pose a threat.

Point 4:
It is "cheap".

I doubt it costs much. You get one for free in Lavaridge, and Lax Incense is free unless you dropped it.

"Cheap" does not have any relevance when we are talking competitively. In my opinion, it is just somebody whining because their team does not have an effective way to deal with the threat it poses.

Overcentralisation

There has been no evidence of Wobbuffet being overcentralising to the metagame, Shed Shell usages stayed the same, no pokemon were used a lot to counter Wobbuffet. If you want to prove overcentralisation, you have to have to statistics to back it up.

Why is it not used on Shoddy?

The community is biased against Wobbuffet, many players on Shoddy don't bother preparing or anticipating Wobbuffet, others who use it get flamed. There are several instances of Wobbuffet being used effectively by top-tier players, most notably Doorman's stall team. I doubt respect matters if you are playing to win.
And BTW, Sleep Clause is broken with Magic Coat as it is a status inflictor, same with Encoring a Hypnosis.

[sims796]

Originally Posted by Aquillae

I'm just going to debate about Wobbuffet here.

Lets look at the reasons why Wobbuffet should be banned to Ubers:

1. It is "irritating" and supposedly "sucks the fun" out of every game its in
2. It has no counters
3. It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag, especially walls
4. It is "cheap"

Point 1:
It is irritating.

Competitive pokemon will never be about fun. Wobbuffet is there, live with it. Cresselia and Blissey are irritating, but we don't ban them, right?
But there are effective ways to deal with them. Just the first sentence sounds a little off putting, to be honest, it's a $35 children's video game, not a sport.
Point 2:
It has no counters.

The "no counters" argument has been thrown around a lot of times, and it is worth noting that the top tier pokemon also have "no counters" at first.
Take Heracross. It is "stopped completely by Gliscor", or so they say. In reality, you could just slap an LO and HP Ice on Heracross, and Gliscor would be neutered. A more practical moveset would be this:

Heracross @ Burn Orb
Guts
Adamant, 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Swords Dance
Megahorn
Close Combat
Facade

After a Swords Dance, Heracross reaches 1149 Attack, enough to do more than 85% to a standard Gliscor, standing a 2.56% chance of KOing it, with Stealth Rock down a 79.49% chance of KOing it.

The definition of a counter:

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

Variants of Gliscor without AA would not counter a Sub/SD Heracross. The set listed above shows that Gliscor would not be able to switch in against Heracross without taking significant damage or being KOed. Skarmory and Hippowdon fall to Close Combat.

Wobbuffet has no counters simply because of its ability. It should be treated as seperate from the conventional pokemon as "counters" do not apply to it.

The "no counters" does not show its strength and brokenness.
Actually, it shows it's brokeness quite well.
Point 3:
It can take down any pokemon with Shadow Tag and Encore, including walls.

A lot of people overestimate Wobbuffet's defensive capabilities as well as its ability to deal with other pokemon. Wobbuffet gains the Psychic type, a liability this generation with the introduction of Pursuit, physical Dark moves and Special Shadow Ball.
Wobbuffet has no notable resistances that could be exploited in the switchin, as most pokemon who carry Psychic or Fighting moves have something to deal with Wobbuffet.

So, Wobbuffet can't come in on sweepers. But what about walls? Wobbuffet could easily come in and let something setup right?

Not really. If Wobbuffet comes in on, say Blissey, you could select a non-damaging move and proceed to see a setup sweeper coming in. In reality however, you have to have something to deal with setup sweepers, be it revenge killing, entry hazards or effective walling.

Wobbazard got hurt by Stealth Rock. A lot.
This is all assuming you are playing against a moron, right? Any good Wobbo user can pick who it comes out on, and what move it comes out on. It wouldn't straight come out on a poke that is using a move that can 2HKO on the spot. The inclusion of Choice items helped it out somewhat, as well as Reflect & Light Screen, to allow survivability, and the ability to switch in.
Okay, time for the infamous and arguably the best Wobbuffet set in existence.

"TickleWobb"

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Shadow Tag
Lonely (+Atk -Def), 128 Def/128 SpD/252 Speed

Encore
Tickle
Counter
Mirror Coat

The nature is not a mistake as on the rare occassions Wobb with Tickle was handed out it had a predetermined Lonely nature.

Strategy is simple. Come in on a wall's non damaging move, Encore, the higher speed would lock the non-damaging move in, and start Tickling and refresh Encore whenever you want.
After getting it to -6 Def (Tickle), send in CBTyranitar and Pursuit.

This set is rare because of the complete non-existence of Tickle Wobbuffet in the WiFi metagame. As such, it is not a great threat, and discussions are now undergoing in Shoddy about whether event moves should be banned given the restricted IVs and Nature for it.

As such, only the Tickle Wobbuffet merits further discussion, but the standards don't really pose a threat.

Point 4:
It is "cheap".

I doubt it costs much. You get one for free in Lavaridge, and Lax Incense is free unless you dropped it.
D=If this is sarcasm, it's also chessy. Otherwise, please don't twist words or meanings. I know it was sarcasm, but that is a tad low brow.
"Cheap" does not have any relevance when we are talking competitively. In my opinion, it is just somebody whining because their team does not have an effective way to deal with the threat it poses.
F.E.A.R. Rattata is also cheap, but one thing at a time. Which would be an effective way to deal with it? You can't shove Shed Shell on every poke, to say so would be unreasonable.
Overcentralisation

There has been no evidence of Wobbuffet being overcentralising to the metagame, Shed Shell usages stayed the same, no pokemon were used a lot to counter Wobbuffet. If you want to prove overcentralisation, you have to have to statistics to back it up.
At the same time, all other pokemon cannot suffice by slapping a Shed Shell on them. Nor can any pokemon be used to counter Wobby, simply because a SMART user keeps them the heck away from those who are an immediate threat to it, like Gya. There is no real way to counter it.
Why is it not used on Shoddy?
Sorry, not on shoddy, I'll leave that alone.
The community is biased against Wobbuffet, many players on Shoddy don't bother preparing or anticipating Wobbuffet, others who use it get flamed. There are several instances of Wobbuffet being used effectively by top-tier players, most notably Doorman's stall team. I doubt respect matters if you are playing to win. Hm. Taking the game way too seriously. That doesn't really prove much for or against Wobbo.
And BTW, Sleep Clause is broken with Magic Coat as it is a status inflictor, same with Encoring a Hypnosis.

As for the Sleep Clause thing, Magic Coat is not a status inflictor. I reflected Dark Azelf's Metal Sound right back at him before. Very funny, but not a status. The same way that Breloom was able to use Toxic, or Leech Seed, and I was allowed to bounce those back, it is completely reliant on what HE uses. Maybe shoddy doesn't let him sleep. I dunno. But on wifi, he's asleep. I won't fall asleep because one of his pokes are, I'm gonna try to block it. If you Encore my Hypnosis, sure, that may break Sleep Clause, because I can simply switch the effects away, and I know what I am doing. I am using a sleep inducing move. However, I am automatically supposed to have one of my members sleep, because he want's to use Spore? Using any status move on a Magic Coat user is dangerous on it's own.


Now I will agree that "it's irritating" is not a valid argument. I find Blissey annoying as well, always healing. STOP HEALING! Still, she actually has counters. Other trapping pokemon are greatly hinderd. Duggy? Lacks powa. If it comes in on my Grumpig (one of the two pokes it can beat on my team) while I am using Reflect, it's a wasted effort on Duggy's part. Magnezone? Thank God it only works on steels, who can afford to use Shed Shell. Trapinch? Well, I dunno much on that. But they all have cripplingweaknesses, most of which stems from lack of actual powa (I love that word!). Now, as for Wobbo, they have complete control as to what it switches into. Any intellegent Wobbo user knows how to avoid certain threats.

[Aquilae]

Competitive pokemon is very different from the videogame. On the Shoddy ladder, people play to win, not to have fun. The ladder is an extremely competitive environment and statistics from there can be depended on.

I was quoting Wobbazard as potentially the most dangerous combo of Wobbuffet's Encore. Common set-up sweepers like Lucario all can be stopped one way or another provided you have a counter for them.

Like I said, Wobbuffet is different from conventional pokemon in a sense that it has Shadow Tag, so counters do not apply to it. I gave an explanation on the "no counters" argument, why wouldn't people bash Burn Orb/SD Hera? Why wouldn't Heracross be banished to the Ubers tier?

Preparing for Wobbuffet does not mean that a Shed Shell should be shoved onto every pokemon. It means that you must posess a check - i.e. a pokemon that can come in after a kill and pose an immediate threat to said Wobbuffet.

"Any smart user of Wobbuffet would not match Wobbuffet up against another pokemon that it cannot handle". While this argument is plausible, I find that not creating an opportunity for Wobbuffet to switch in in the first place is a good way of trying to beat the other smart user, OR you could possess several "checks" as I mentioned earlier.

Competitive pokemon is serious business.

And, as for the Magic Coat argument, you used it knowing full well what it does (reflect back status and other stuff), violating Sleep Clause. It could function as a sleep-inducing move among others.
You also have three other moves, and 5 other pokemon that you can switchin. Why choose Magic Coat?

[sims796]

Originally Posted by Aquillae

"Any smart user of Wobbuffet would not match Wobbuffet up against another pokemon that it cannot handle". While this argument is plausible, I find that not creating an opportunity for Wobbuffet to switch in in the first place is a good way of trying to beat the other smart user, OR you could possess several "checks" as I mentioned earlier.
You cannot possibly always control the situation as to not make it happen. An earlier user said something like that. Just "put up the pressure". Outmanuervering is not a reliable way of countering, as the opponent is able to do the same. I can easily be outmanuvered myself. We need a hard, set in stone weakness. Which Wobbo doesn't have.
Competitive pokemon is serious business.
Buisness my butt. It's a video game for ages 10 & up. I bought one for my little cousin. I know what you mean, about how commpettitive differs from that game, but it is hardly a real serious buisness, and those who treat it as such needs to take a game break. It's pokemon.
And, as for the Magic Coat argument, you used it knowing full well what it does (reflect back status and other stuff), violating Sleep Clause. It could function as a sleep-inducing move among others.
You also have three other moves, and 5 other pokemon that you can switchin. Why choose Magic Coat?This get's my immediate attention. Even if, am I supposed to automatically fall asleep because they have Spore & I put them to sleep? I have a right to fight back. THEY used it full knowing they can fall asleep themselves-like using Effect Spore on Breloom. Same with using Spore on Blissey with Serene Grace. By putting that to sleep, you may break sleep clause, thinking it may have Natural Cure. But since it has the option, you can't sleep it safely. Well, they used Spore full knwing what can happen. I don't want my Piggy to sleep, and I cannot afford a switch to another poke to use Aromatherapy.

First off, I'm tired, so I'll let others handle the rest of your argument.

Second, about the pokeworld as "serious", let's take it elsewhere.

Third, g'night. A new episode comes on tommora. We can finish this when others come on.

[ABYAY]

I agree with Sims here; Magic Coat is a varied status-reflecting move. Basically, this is like saying that Magic Coat is banned from being used because it can break a clause.

Again, you can't know what move they're using. They could have Spore, Leech Seed, Toxic, Stun Spore, things like that. I know most commonly it's gonna be Spore, but still...there's always the potential of something else.

[The REAL Shadow Chaos]

Originally Posted by Aquillae

Just to clarify, Deoxys-E is probably the best revenge killer in D/P outspeeding and threatening many pokemon, including Scarfers. Now back to the discussion at hand:

I think Dugtrio is a better revenge killer. He has a super ability for revenge killing. Focus Sash Trapinch can revenge kill too (He has a stronger EQ)but can only be used once and can do nothing else than revenge kill 1 Pokemon.

[Lalapizzame]

Originally Posted by The REAL Shadow Chaos

I think Dugtrio is a better revenge killer. He has a super ability for revenge killing. Focus Sash Trapinch can revenge kill too (He has a stronger EQ)but can only be used once and can do nothing else than revenge kill 1 Pokemon.

Deoxys can outspeed Choice Scarfers without a priority move and still revenge kill which Dugtrio fails to do.Trapinch is pathetic unless your trying to make people laugh or you're on PBR.It's movepool is predictable since it has few usable moves.

[Anti]

I have to say sims, a lot of people take the game more seriously than you do. Even if you think it is ridiculous, people DO take it very seriously (cough me cough).

I actually agree Wobbuffet is OU. Almost all teams carry a PHazer or a U-Turner, both of which counter Wobbuffet. You can also Shadow Sneak it with Dusknoir or Dark Pulse it with Houndoom (my point being that counter doesn't affect ghosts and mirror coat doesn't affect dark types).

Besides, Wobbuffet is quite fragile considering its role. With Spikes support, all you have to be able to do is 4HKO it to beat it. Without Spikes support, all you need is a 3HKO, which isn't all that difficult to accomplish.

Call it overcentralization, but almost every team I've played against carries something that can Roar or 3HKO Wobbuffet, or a Dark or ghost type. Come on, everybody uses Gengar these days.

Shadow Tag is an extreme pain, but so is Dugtrio's Arena Trap where getting it in on Raikou means Raikou is dead. While that is true with Wobbuffet, only on a much wider scale than Dugtrio, it falters beyond those pokemon. As Aquillae mentioned, a lot of high OUs don't have any real counters, where being outpredicted means you lose a pokemon. I just scout for Wobbuffet at the beginning of every battle and I never have problems.

Wobbuffet users can be smart, but you can outsmart them by taking necessary precautions, none of which over centralize anything. you just need to know what pokemon are Wobbuffet bait and counter opposing strategies accordingly.

For example, in Advance Celebi was destroyed by Dugtrio, and Celebi happens to be the staple of my stall team. With that in mind, I always scout for Dugtrio either before I bring it out or the very next turn after I bring it out.

[sims796]

Originally Posted by Anti-Pop

I have to say sims, a lot of people take the game more seriously than you do. Even if you think it is ridiculous, people DO take it very seriously (cough me cough).
That isn't all too healthy. I won't continute the discussion with that in mind, in fact, I will only consider it with a grain of salt. It is a Pokemon video game, not life, and I will make my points with that in mind.
I actually agree Wobbuffet is OU. Almost all teams carry a PHazer or a U-Turner, both of which counter Wobbuffet. You can also Shadow Sneak it with Dusknoir or Dark Pulse it with Houndoom (my point being that counter doesn't affect ghosts and mirror coat doesn't affect dark types).
Why would Wobbo come out on a ghost type, anyway? Or a Dark type for that matter? Or, most importantly, a hazer? Use U-Turn, the next thing will get hit hard.
Besides, Wobbuffet is quite fragile considering its role. With Spikes support, all you have to be able to do is 4HKO it to beat it. Without Spikes support, all you need is a 3HKO, which isn't all that difficult to accomplish.
Hoping you don't get counterd in the process.
Call it overcentralization, but almost every team I've played against carries something that can Roar or 3HKO Wobbuffet, or a Dark or ghost type. Come on, everybody uses Gengar these days.
Maybe on shoddy, I'll leave that alone.
Shadow Tag is an extreme pain, but so is Dugtrio's Arena Trap where getting it in on Raikou means Raikou is dead. While that is true with Wobbuffet, only on a much wider scale than Dugtrio, it falters beyond those pokemon. As Aquillae mentioned, a lot of high OUs don't have any real counters, where being outpredicted means you lose a pokemon. I just scout for Wobbuffet at the beginning of every battle and I never have problems.
So it is really that simple? Simply saying "you can outpredict it!" isn't enough to consider it's place.
Wobbuffet users can be smart, but you can outsmart them by taking necessary precautions, none of which over centralize anything. you just need to know what pokemon are Wobbuffet bait and counter opposing strategies accordingly.
As I said, saying "outsmart them" isn't good enough.
For example, in Advance Celebi was destroyed by Dugtrio, and Celebi happens to be the staple of my stall team. With that in mind, I always scout for Dugtrio either before I bring it out or the very next turn after I bring it out.

Since I must post something here for some reason, I'll just say what I said. I won't speak as if this game is a hardcore compettitive sport, only for the "elite". I will speak & make points based on the everyday, average standard player. I won't make it like someone who has turned a child's game (which is what it is) into something "hardcore" and a "serious business". Whether or not it is used on shoddy, I don't care. Put Wobbo there if you like.

[Anti]

It's just like anything else though. We are talking about battlers who play to win. Period. If you don't take it that seriously, more power to you, but don't bring that up here since it's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, outsmarting Wobbuffet players is the best you can do. You can wave the red flag and say it's uber because of that, but outsmarting Wobbuffet is ridiculously easy. BTW, U-Turn + switch to ghost = Counter fails. and while nobody is going to switch Wobbuffet in on something like spiritomb, you can scout for Wobbuffet and have Spiritomb keep Wobbuffet away.

Also, whether you 3HKO or 4HKO Wobbuffet, you're going to get counter/mirror coated. You will most likely survive (as you aren't doing much damage with an attack that can only 3HKO or 4HKO). The strategy still works. So basically, switching in on ANY powerful sweeper is going to be trouble for Wobbuffet.

Besides, Wobbuffet probably isn't going to know if your PHazer is really a PHazer. for example, Hippowdon only sometimes carries Roar, so playing the guessing game is trouble for Wobbuffet. My Zapdos happens to have Roar, so when it comes in, it's quite easy to Roar it. Also, even though Wobbuffet can Encore you, Toxic will beat it (and Toxic is growing to be quite common). No matter how it tries, Wobbuffet is going to be worn down by Toxic fairly quickly.

You also must not forget its weakness to Pursuit.

So really, tell me what team doesn't have at least one of the following:

- A PHazer
- Something with Toxic
- A ghost
- A dark type
- Something that can 3HKO Wobbuffet (or 4HKO with Spikes support)
- U-Turner (even if it uses counter, just roost off the damage or whatever you have to do)

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see a team without at least one of those things. And even if there are some, putting in a PHazer to Roar away Wobby isn't over centralization at all. One move for one pokemon isn't over centralization, just look at Swampert in Advance. Everybody put HP Grass on about every pokemon to beat Swampert, but it wasn't uber and never will be.