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  #1    
Old Posted May 31st, 2009 (09:39 PM).
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I have an idea for a story, but, my backbone of it, changes some basic ideas of evolution.


As we've seen with Diamon/Pearl, the enviroment can have effects on evolution. I have a simular idea, BUT! It has to deal with hatching and evolving. I shall list an example.


We will start with pokemon #1, Bulbasaur. Pretty Basic Grass/poison starter, we all love him.

Now, the basic bulbasaur lives in forest like areas. Lots of life, food, ect.. Most forests have open pockets in them for Bulbasaurs to sit and absorb the sunlight, like they do.



But, what if the bulbasaur, venusaur was forced away from its forest home? It has its eggs out in the grass land. I would think, that this would make it loose its poison aspect, because its bulb would be absorbing sunlight almost 24/7, and with all the water it would have to drink to stay hydrated, I would think the bulb would flower earlier than normal. But what other aspects of him would change from the Bulbasaur we know and love? Well, I think that the bulb itself would change! Insted of wide leaves, it would have thin long leaves, almost grass like, with the sprouting flower atop. These kind of changes would alter what kind of attacks it would use, what tactics it would use too.

Well, what about dry arid regions? Say this egg was hatched in the Hoenn desert? The big green bulb wouldn't work! He would need to adapt his bulb into one of the few, long lasting plants IN the desert, catus! But, hes also a live animal too, he can't just walk around all day long. The desert bulbasaur would need to keep itself mostly burrowed in the sand, only allowing its plant to remain above, to keep its skin away from the harsh winds. At night, when it was cooler, the bulbasaur would continue about its life, searching for food, ect..


Well, what about a marshy like jungle? Lots of water, lots of trees, little sunlight on the jungle floor. The bulbasaurs here must ALSO adapt. I would think that this bulbasaur would be a poison/grass type, other than a grass/poison type(yes, I think there SHOULD be a difference too) also, I would beleave that the leaves on the bulb would make themselves into vines, and the flower, would be much bigger than the normal family line has. The Jungle Swampy bulbasaur would be immune to most poisons, and love the water, and I would think would use the vines it has been growing to help it move among the trees, AND through the water(when moving through rivers)



Now, using these ideas from our bulbasaur friend, you can kind of see where I'm going. This idea would change how each and every pokemon evolves, and is born.



Please, post your opinions, and any/all ideas for any/all pokemon there are. the story I had in mind that I started, was going to start in Kanto, with a training starting his journey, and then, going all around the pokemon world, and some new places, to learn about these new kinds of evolutions and breeds.
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  #2    
Old Posted May 31st, 2009 (10:14 PM).
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I think it coincides with the reason why certain pokemon are found where they are. Though if you plan on writing that there was a Bulbasaur, lets say born in the desert, aside from a valid reason you'd have to write in, It could be possible. Though you'd have to do some research, if that the bulb on its back is already genetically part of it or not.

Fakemon, and deviations in canon are not unheard of, and if they are done properly, can make for an interesting fic.

Because Bulbasaur has a symbiotic relationship with its bulb, would kind of adversities would it encounter as a result?

Also for an original trainer fic, I suggest reading the FAQ, and various guides here too, because the morning of being 10 years old, and getting your first Pokemon, has been overdone, and may make the story less interesting if included.

But yeah, in terms of realism, you'd have to look at genetics. I'd have to read up on it, but let's say both parents were Venasaurs, then I'd assume their plant symbiote genome would get passed on. Of course you could also have some kind of leap in evolution (a la x-men).

Otherwise, like I said, if it is well written, and the explantion of such, makes sense, then I could see it working.
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Old Posted May 31st, 2009 (10:25 PM).
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It's an interesting idea, but there's just a couple of problems:

1. What you're talking about is basically literal, real-world evolution. This will most likely take a ton of generations to actually get a mutation that would lead to the species taking on drastic changes in order for it to survive. For example, the difference between human beings and its last genetic ancestor didn't happen within the next generation but instead quite a few generations.

Even considering that, there's also the likelihood that taking a foreign creature out of its natural habitat and placing it in a completely different one would either kill it or cause it to proliferate so much that it overruns the ecosystem (instead of actually evolving to adapt to it). For example, if you put an orchid in a desert and never watered it (like the Bulbasaur-in-Hoenn's-desert idea), most likely, it'll die. If, however, you take kudzu and put it in the warm hills and grasslands of the southern US (the Bulbasaur-in-a-grassland idea), it won't really change. It'll just pretty much choke out every native plant there because it lacks anything to regulate its growth.

'Course, you could also have adaptation, but that's really only one possibility -- a very slow possibility.

2. It's already been countered in the anime (and implied to have been countered in the games), really. In the second season of the anime, the gang travels from the moderate climates and leafy forests of Kanto to the tropical islands of the Orange Archipelago. There, the Pokémon looked the same except for one very minor difference: certain Pokémon (like Vileplume and Butterfree) sported different patterns. That's really it. All of the other Pokémon didn't seem outwardly different. Just some had circles instead of spots.

In the games, it's been covered a bit in Arbok's 'dex entries (where it mentions that Arbok's patterns change from region to region but nothing else), and certain fans like to think of the minor gender differences brought up in Sinnoh as being a regional thing. (Although I personally think it's not.)

Moreover, it should be noted that Pokémon from one region often appear in another. Sometimes, these Pokémon exist in different environments as well. For example, Wobbuffet in Johto are found in a dark cave, whereas Wobbuffet in Hoenn live in the wooded areas of a nature preserve. Two different ecosystems with little variation between the appearance of the same Pokémon.

If anything, the only real representation of environmental differences is in Shellos and Gastrodon, and even then, there doesn't seem to be any particular reason for why they are the way they are except the possibility of drastic chemical differences in the waters themselves. (Since both seas contain pretty much the same Pokémon, it can't be fauna. It's possible that the blue/pink color comes from a variation in pH, but really, it's never fully explained.)


(As a side note before the conclusion, I'm not quite sure how a Bulbasaur's migration out of the forest would result in a loss of its Poison type. It's a defense mechanism, and there's such a thing as poisonous animals on grasslands. I've read that Australia's covered with that kind of stuff.)

Long story short, it's an interesting concept, but I'm wondering how much research you've put into it. Not trying to offend you. Just asking to nudge you into developing it a bit more.
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  #4    
Old Posted May 31st, 2009 (10:48 PM).
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Oooo actually, I just remembered about that episode (first three seasons somewhere anyway), where the group goes to some island or place, abundant in some special fruit, where it turns all the Pokemon pink. They didn't explain if this was permanent, but it could make sense if it were like our carotene (that having too much of it, makes you turn orange).
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  #5    
Old Posted May 31st, 2009 (11:37 PM).
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Oh yes, Valentine, Australia has enough poisonous beasties to kill an army, and then some. Some of the world's most deadly snakes are found there, for starters.
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Old Posted June 1st, 2009 (12:14 AM).
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And spiders, and sea beasties too, sea snakes, blue-ringed octopi, jellyfish, stone fish... Oh yeah, the topic! Neko Keeshi, as mentioned what you have in mind seems quite interesting, but differs from the more banal realities that the world is stuck with (particularly in time-frame).

In the end for creatures such as a bulbasaur to adapt to such widely varying environments would involve drastic changes that would take millennia. For example to adapt to the desert a bulbasaur would have to some how decrease in surface area to keep from overheating, it's stubby body size/shape doesn't lend well to cooling off (notice most desert animals are small and/or spindly, to do with body volume/surface area), and the bulb would have to be a non-flowering plant (kinda like you said) with few leaves.

Also to be quick about my ramblings, these changes do not move fast enough for something to adapt to a hostile/wildly differing environment. Put most plants or animals in the wrong place, they die. It would just take to long to try to pass off as adaptation, though I guess in the world of pokemon, perhaps shortcuts could be made with biology. Now that I've killed yet another thread and bored everybody to the point of stabbing their brains out with wooden cooking spoons, I'll stop. :/
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  #7    
Old Posted June 1st, 2009 (05:48 AM).
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Thank you guys very much! I'll take this into consideration.
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Old Posted June 1st, 2009 (07:25 AM).
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I like this idea. Very interesting. It does look well thought out anyway even if a bit more needs to be done.

Yes, I know it does take a considerable length of time for animals to adapt and evolve but you are forgetting that in the Pokemon in which Neko Keeshi's concept appears in evolution can occur in an instant. You seem to be forgetting that if you give your little Magikarp too many sweets it will become a gigantic dragon that is likely to eat you. So I say to this idea, why not? Go ahead.
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  #9    
Old Posted June 1st, 2009 (09:05 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burningfoot View Post
Yes, I know it does take a considerable length of time for animals to adapt and evolve but you are forgetting that in the Pokemon in which Neko Keeshi's concept appears in evolution can occur in an instant. You seem to be forgetting that if you give your little Magikarp too many sweets it will become a gigantic dragon that is likely to eat you. So I say to this idea, why not? Go ahead.
Pokémon evolution, unfortunately, is actually a misnomer. It's more akin to metamorphosis than actual Darwinesque evolution. As in, "evolution" in Pokémon -- the evolution of a Magikarp to a Gyarados, for example -- is actually the transition from a juvenile stage to an adult stage, much in the same way a caterpillar transforms into a pupa and then into an adult butterfly. (This transition is even made amusingly explicit with things like Caterpie and Wurmple.)

So, yes, there's a difference between that kind of evolution and the kind of evolution we're talking about -- as in, mutation and the production of a completely different species as the result of adaptation. The latter (the type of evolution we're talking about) involves a loss or diminishing of the original species due to the law of survival of the fittest. That is, the new species is equipped with the traits that enable it to better survive, so the old species dies out as a result of not being able to adapt to the environment that the new one has taken completely in stride. Evolution when applied to the physical changing between one Pokémon stage and another just involves the maturity of the Pokémon to its most powerful form, not a loss of the original species or even a need for adaptation (considering all Pokémon forms canonically have the potential to live in the same habitat -- or, at least, according to the anime and every blinking Zubat/Golbat nest in the games).

Long story short:

"Evolution" such as Magikarp -> Gyarados: actually metamorphosis.
Evolution in the sense of adaptation: what we're referring to, and yes, this would take millennia to achieve.

They're two different things that are actually named the same, but considering humans exist in the Pokémon world, we're going to have to assume that evolution in the real-world sense can also occur. (That is, unless you're a creationist.)
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  #10    
Old Posted June 2nd, 2009 (06:32 AM).
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I was thinking that the base starting pokemon would be the same; EI; a Bulbasaur hatched in this desert area, would be a normal bulbasaur, maybe alittle different colored, but a bulbasaur. When it tries to evolve, it would move into a new evolution line; IE; a different 2nd forum and another 3rd after that.
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  #11    
Old Posted June 2nd, 2009 (11:49 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neko Keeshi View Post
I was thinking that the base starting pokemon would be the same; EI; a Bulbasaur hatched in this desert area, would be a normal bulbasaur, maybe alittle different colored, but a bulbasaur. When it tries to evolve, it would move into a new evolution line; IE; a different 2nd forum and another 3rd after that.
Keep in mind that you're talking about a shift in genetics. Mutations. Those kinds of things don't happen right off the bat -- as in, plopping a fertile specimen in a different environment doesn't automatically result in its offspring being able to adapt. It can be assumed that what a Pokémon evolves into is determined by genetics as well (as implied by Eevee's 'dex entry), so most likely, the wandering Venusaur's immediate offspring will just be more regular Bulbasaur that evolve into ordinary Ivysaur and Venusaur. (Before we argue about Eevee's evolution line taking on forms that suit its environment, it's also noted that Eevee's genetic structure is highly unstable. That explanation can cover the reason why it can adapt so quickly, but the same can't be applied to other, more genetically stable Pokémon.)

Long story short, even if the Bulbasaur hatches into an ordinary (albeit slightly miscolored -- which, even then, probably won't be logical because even skin pigmentation takes time to shift and produce mutations) Bulbasaur, it probably won't evolve into anything out of the ordinary because it lacks the genetic code that would cause it to do that. It takes generations of small mutations to do, and even when mutations occur, they don't automatically produce something definitely beneficial. For example, horses evolved from three-toed animals to one-toed animals (I think to be able to walk in rougher terrain, if I recall correctly, but someone better versed in how horses evolved can correct me here.) over millions of years, and even then, the species between the ancient ancestor and the modern horse had vestigial toes.

Again, evolution in terms of Bulbasaur to Ivysaur is not the same thing as Darwinesque evolution, or the changing of traits for the sake of survival. It's metamorphosis, or a transition from a juvenile to an adult. The process isn't a means of adaptation. It's a process of maturity. Changes for the sake of adaptation wouldn't factor in here unless the Pokémon's name is Eevee.
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  #12    
Old Posted June 2nd, 2009 (12:03 PM).
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Hey, I like your idea! It sounds great, just brainstorm and stuff and you'll have a sweet story in no time!
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Old Posted June 3rd, 2009 (07:04 AM).
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I can understand the thing about maturing through "evolution" but you possibly need to consider, why does Nosepass only change in Mt Coronet? Same with Magneton. What is it that means they can only evolve there? There must be some sense of adaptation involved.

Burmy, it easily adapts to its surrounding. And then seems to think that when it evolves that its current form is best and keeps it.

How about just finding a Bulbasaur in the desert that has already had family living there for many generations after being moved there?
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Old Posted June 3rd, 2009 (07:24 AM). Edited June 3rd, 2009 by JX Valentine.
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Originally Posted by burningfoot View Post
I can understand the thing about maturing through "evolution" but you possibly need to consider, why does Nosepass only change in Mt Coronet? Same with Magneton. What is it that means they can only evolve there? There must be some sense of adaptation involved.
Actually, it's implied that special evolutions (such as with evolution stones) occur by radiation and instantaneous mutation -- a minor push to aid growth but not necessarily outright adaptation. It's possible that the minerals in Mt. Coronet satisfy similar requirements needed to push Nosepass and Magneton into evolution. It should be noted that the species itself isn't entirely adapting to its surroundings but is instead responding through physical change. The Nosepass and Magneton are equally fit to live in Mt. Coronet, and Probopass and Magnezone possess no actual qualities that benefit their survival except the power that comes with maturity, not adaptation. As in, they're the final, adult stages of the evolution line, so they would most likely possess more strength to both attack and defend compared to their weaker, more juvenile stages. (It should be noted that even higher strength to attack and defend isn't really a necessary adaptation. Both Magneton and Nosepass would be able to survive in the areas where lower-level Pokémon exist due to a resistance towards a number of types that exist there except the Fighting-types, which may serve as their natural predators. Never mind the fact that Mt. Coronet is not at least Magneton's native environment -- and is not Nosepass's until Platinum -- nor is nowhere near where it actually makes its home. The necessity to adapt to the environment of Mt. Coronet, then, wouldn't exist for either Pokémon because those Pokémon would be domestic and brought in by trainers anyway unless we're talking about the rare Nosepass in Platinum.)

Quote:
Burmy, it easily adapts to its surrounding.
By camouflage. Note that its forms use the word "cloak." Likewise, read its 'dex entries:

To shelter itself from cold, wintry winds, it covers itself with a cloak made of twigs and leaves.
If its cloak is broken in battle, it quickly remakes the cloak with materials nearby.


The cover of the Pokémon's body -- the twigs and leaves, et cetera -- are actually gathered by the Pokémon itself. They're not natural features of Burmy's body until after it matures, at which point, the Burmy and its own cloak are merged. However, this means that Burmy could have picked up anything to cover itself, only to have it become part of its body upon maturation. In that case, the mutation itself here isn't in response to environment (keeping in mind that Burmy's cloak was a result of a conscious effort) as it was coincidence. For example, if you have a Trash Cloak Burmy holding EXP Share meeting its growth requirements after another member of its team battles in a forest, the resulting Wormadam will be a Trash Cloak Wormadam because Burmy had no chance to respond to its environment before it integrated its own cloak into its body.

Quote:
And then seems to think that when it evolves that its current form is best and keeps it.
The evolution here, if there is any (which, judging by the word "cloak," it most likely doesn't), would take place in the Burmy stage, not the Wormadam stage. As in, by the time Burmy develops into a Wormadam, it's already adapted to its environment, meaning the process here doesn't help Burmy to further adapt.

In other words, what you're describing aren't really the kinds of mutations that we're talking about in real-life evolution. The first is merely a mutation, and the second is literal camouflage.
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  #15    
Old Posted June 3rd, 2009 (10:20 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burningfoot View Post
I can understand the thing about maturing through "evolution" but you possibly need to consider, why does Nosepass only change in Mt Coronet? Same with Magneton. What is it that means they can only evolve there? There must be some sense of adaptation involved.

Burmy, it easily adapts to its surrounding. And then seems to think that when it evolves that its current form is best and keeps it.

How about just finding a Bulbasaur in the desert that has already had family living there for many generations after being moved there?
This is almost more to what I was talking about. This place that they go do, it doesn't have to be a set place, but the region, Pokémon are given more ability to change toward the current environment they are in, when maturing. This idea is very different than the normal planned evolution(maturing) we are used to. But like in the last gen of games, the mountain for no reason helped change the way a few Pokémon were, and pushed them forward. My question is; Why couldn't the same thing be brought up, with a whole new area of play. Think of it as a real game here, Pokémon just evolve differently, and for reasons unknown, they change and thrive. The Pokémon in all these areas, and very high in numbers AND diversity. There could be 3 or 4 or maybe even MORE different types of one KIND of Pokémon that live within this region.

I don't know. I really respect what Valentine is saying, and it makes 100% sense to me, BUT! I am trying to think outside the box(but not really) and find a new way, to give our old favorites new light, and color.
Maybe a meteor fell from the sky, and had some weird micro-organism on it, and when other breeds of Pokémon come in contact with it, while maturing, it helps it advance its body to suit its current environment more? I don't know, just throwing ideas out there.
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  #16    
Old Posted June 3rd, 2009 (11:43 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neko Keeshi View Post
the mountain for no reason
Not exactly for no reason. *motions to the theory she's mentioned before in conjunction with evolution stones* Yes, it's fan speculation (although I do believe the radiation comment was made explicit somewhere in canon), but really, that's part of what makes science fiction possible -- speculation over how it happened based on logical analysis of the situation. *motions to the rest of the paragraph she's mentioned*

Quote:
My question is; Why couldn't the same thing be brought up, with a whole new area of play.
In a fan-created region, this is possible so long as it's clear the result is a fan-created Pokémon if you're attempting to go the same way as the Mt. Coronet evolutions. What I mean is that Probopass and Magnezone aren't just Nosepass and Magneton with adaptations built in. They're a completely different species -- the final/most powerful stage of a line and the actual adult form of their respective families.

Branch evolutions in this manner are possible. However, think of it like Eevee. Take Eevee to Eterna Forest, and it evolves into Leafeon. That Pokémon is not the same as the result you get if you take Eevee near Acuity Lakefront. It may simply be the same as your Bulbasaur example. Take Bulbasaur to one location, and it evolves into a Venusaur. Take it to another, and you might not get the same plant. Think of how real life plants and animals (like, for example, koalas and wombats) may share a common ancestor but aren't the same animal as a result of living in two different environments.

Changes like these tend to take hundreds of thousands of years either way, like I've (and a few other people have) said earlier. Simply hatching a Bulbasaur from jungle-raised Venusaur parents won't produce a desert-adapted Venusaur, even if the Bulbasaur's lived in the desert their whole lives. After all, breed a Bulbasaur in Hoenn and hatch it in the desert, and you'll still get that Venusaur.

However, the latest gen introduced a variety of new evolutions and evolutionary branches because the latest gen also offered new conditions for maturation. Pokémon could suddenly learn moves to unlock new modes of growth (like Tangrowth and Yanmega). New stones and items were introduced to induce evolution in new directions. Unique environment not seen outside of Sinnoh was created. (After all, try evolving a Nosepass in Mt. Moon, and it probably will laugh at you. There's something in Mt. Coronet itself that triggers this evolution. It may be the minerals available. It may be the fact that it's literally sitting underneath the stairway to Heaven. It may be something else altogether. Whatever it is, it's not a general mountain environment.)

Quote:
Pokémon just evolve differently, and for reasons unknown, they change and thrive.
Not exactly for reasons unknown. Most Pokémon evolve by level-up -- something that's calculated with experience, which in turn is calculated by the time spent battling or with a trainer. In those cases, it's a meter of physical maturity, with the stronger Pokémon being pushed towards evolution/maturation because they're being pushed beyond the limits of their juvenile forms thanks to battling. Others that evolve by happiness usually have the happiness meter calculated by time spent with the trainer (again), and Eevee's 'dex entry implies that the evolution stones work by radiation.

Quote:
There could be 3 or 4 or maybe even MORE different types of one KIND of Pokémon that live within this region.
A Rattata in Cerulean City is exactly the same as a Rattata near Celadon City.

I guess the main problem I have with what you're saying is that it just doesn't apply to most of the current regions because Pokémon are canonically shown to be exactly the same in one environment as another with the exception of Shellos and Gastrodon (and, if you really want to push it, Burmy, although Burmy only live in one kind environment naturally). Likewise, Pokémon that don't exist in certain areas just aren't suited for those environments and would probably die off if transplanted in small numbers. Hence, if you want to do a fan-created region, you're going to have to go back and really study how animal/plant migration happens, how the environment shifts/how animals respond to this, and what kinds of things lead to adaptation and evolution. Likewise, you're probably going to need natural barriers and special conditions up the wazoo to explain why this region's Pokémon behave differently -- and, as a result, are different physically as well -- compared to Pokémon in other regions. There's natural examples of evolution for the sake of adaptation out there (like, as I've said before, horses, koalas, and wombats, to name a few -- and certainly tons of plants), so you're going to have to dig back and really study how it happened.

Quote:
BUT! I am trying to think outside the box(but not really) and find a new way, to give our old favorites new light, and color.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying you need to turn back the clock and do a ton of research into Darwin and the theory of evolution itself in order to figure out how you're going to do it because this kind of thing just doesn't happen rapidly.

And, um, that Pokémon evolution in the franchise's sense =/= actual evolution.
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