Project Max Revive: FF&W Revitalization Project

[JX Valentine]

Hilariously, I leave you guys for a couple of weeks, and you manage to get distracted by emblems and bold topics. Way to go.

In any case, I'll make this short and sweet. You know how we've already pointed out that there's been all kinds of fun little problems in FF&W? This is a thread dedicated to figuring out what needs to be done and who's going to do it. In other words, it's a separate thread because the FFL apparently has a case of ADD most of the time. (Seriously, guys? Emblems? You could have discussed that in less than a page, and it's probably not the most important thing on our list.)

So! Read, discuss, and add constructive notes (i.e., not just "this isn't going to work" but also suggestions on what will or what will make it work). Outsiders welcome. Off-topic notes, non-constructive posts, and getting distracted by shiny objects will get you kicked in the groin or ovaries.

The following will be changed frequently, based on feedback and the actions of the people participating:


Outstanding Issues

1. The problem of people not reading stickies. It's a problem that's plagued communities for centuries. We need stickies, but we run at a risk of no one actually touching them.
- Mizan: Suggested that infractions be given out to anyone who makes it obvious they haven't read the stickies. Problem: Isn't this a bit harsh? Not to mention it can only be justifiably applied to the rules, not the guides, and Bay pointed out that this will probably make people want to be less active.
- Bay: Suggested eye-catching title. Problem: Astinus pointed out that this happens with the rules to a hilariously frequent degree anyway, and no one reads them, either.
- Jax: Is suggesting now that we have fewer stickies and focus only stickying threads containing only the most important information that people might not already know. (Reviewing guide is included not out of egotism but instead because not many people seem to get what reviewing is.) As Breezy pointed out, the reviewing guide seems geared towards vets, and that's effectively who actually reads the stickies anyway. Forcing the vets to set an example by having stickies geared towards them (with the rules being the main/only n00b-friendly one) and applying what they've learned from those stickies in their interactions with writers should be able to encourage newbie and n00b authors to emulate them. As in, less need to enforce the stickies so long as vets know what they're talking about.


Jobs

1. Challenges
Unfortunately, there's not much we can do here until we increase review quality and frequency. While reviewing is on the rise (which I do legitimately applaud you guys for), we need to refine the reviewing process a little, as pointed out by Astinus in her latest FFL post. The better the reviewing process, the higher quality fic is around here. Higher quality of fic/higher frequency of writer-to-reviewer interaction -> more fic (because people will want to post in a community known for good writers and lots of good reviewers) -> more member interest in things like challenges and contests.

That and whatever happens is mostly up to Astinus anyway, considering she's the only staff member for the forums. Hence, it's up to her as to how involved in this kind of thing she is. While it's perfectly possible to bring back things like An Exquisite Corpse (for the third time) because that's purely just for funzies, doing something that would require emblems, stickies, and official-like threads (i.e., the prompt challenge) would probably require a mod's finesse.

2. Review-a-Review Thread
Thread Creation: Mizan (No deadline until the review guide pops up.)
Once the review guide goes up, Mizan, you're doing this. Start writing the first post.

3. Plot Bunny Thread
Contacting SPPf: bobandbill
Creating the thread: bobandbill
You've got the template, so I'd say it might take you a couple of weeks to come up with a version for PC. Go for it.

4. Revamp of the Fanfiction Lounge
Thread Creation: Obviously, Astinus (See below for details about when this should happen and how.)
Before anyone can take this, we need to answer one simple question: what goes into it? What kinds of things should happen in the lounge as opposed to the rest of the forum? What would be considered off-topic? Should the new Lounge be just for writing tips? Furthermore, how do we encourage member-to-member interaction so we don't end up just answering bold questions in one-liners and blowing off everyone else who doesn't lines in bold?

5. Resources Thread
Thread Posting/Formatting: Dagzar (No deadline until we've got enough resources to make a decent list.)
Personally, I support this idea over a guide because the guides to grammar and general fanfiction writing tended to be both incomplete and painfully outdated. Simply linking to reliable guides off-site will prevent us from succumbing to our usual bouts of ADD and wandering away from guides before they're finished. Hence, if people are also in support of this logic, start posting your favorite guides to grammar, plot development, character development, and any other writing subject you can think of.

6. Emblems
Creation: Giratina
Move off of them already. The kids who are doing them already have their instructions, and if they don't, we need a handful of concise posts that state exactly what emblems we want to have.

7. Review Announcement Thread
System Creation: Mizan
Mizan gave himself this job, but don't let me see it until the other reviewing guides are up for obvious reasons.

8. Rules Revamp
Plot/Writing/Whatever: ALL OF US.(?) And it's going to be effing sweet.
As proposed by Azurne, one way we're going to get people to read the rules thread is by turning it into the most epic story ever. Planning committee will be assembled once we get a few questions out of the way. The forum will explode with how epic it will be.

9. Fanfiction Archive per la uno... shotti?
Conversion: Astinus
Proposed by Dagzar, we could use a place to stick one-shots so they can get the attention they deserve (instead of being lost and forgotten). I support this mainly because I kinda like seeing forums we never use (read: Fanfiction Archives and/or Revision Bin) either bulldozed or turned into something we do use. They look so lonely! Also, it'd be cool to give one-shots a place to live, yes?

10. Anything else?
What have I missed?

[Dagzar]

The problem of people not reading stickies. It's a problem that's plagued communities for centuries. We need stickies, but we run at a risk of no one actually touching them.

I’m not sure if there’s anything we can really do about this. If people don’t want to read them, they won’t, and no amount of force will make them. The only thing I can think of is to link the stickies in reviews for those who need them, and also point towards the Writer’s Lounge where newbies can get acquainted with everyone else. I also like Bay’s idea to make the titles eye-catching (even if it hasn’t quite worked in the past). On a forum I go on, certain important stickies are given such random and funny titles, curiosity forces you to go check them out.

Resources Thread: Personally, I support this idea over a guide because the guides to grammar and general fanfiction writing tended to be both incomplete and painfully outdated. Simply linking to reliable guides off-site will prevent us from succumbing to our usual bouts of ADD and wandering away from guides before they're finished. Hence, if people are also in support of this logic, start posting your favorite guides to grammar, plot development, character development, and any other writing subject you can think of. I'll also need a volunteer to organize the link list into something that's easily navigable.

I’ll volunteer for this. Should we post links in this thread?

[JX Valentine]

Originally Posted by Dagzar

I’m not sure if there’s anything we can really do about this. If people don’t want to read them, they won’t, and no amount of force will make them. The only thing I can think of is to link the stickies in reviews for those who need them, and also point towards the Writer’s Lounge where newbies can get acquainted with everyone else. I also like Bay’s idea to make the titles eye-catching (even if it hasn’t quite worked in the past). On a forum I go on, certain important stickies are given such random and funny titles, curiosity forces you to go check them out.

In that case, how far should we go before we cross the line into things we shouldn't title those threads? I mean, once, Astinus titled the rules something to the extent of, "unf unf unf unf," and I'm not sure if anyone read them then, either. What're some suggestions for titles you would totally click on if you were new to a forum?

I’ll volunteer for this.

For the thread compilation, too, or just the part about posting links?

Should we post links in this thread?

Yep. Go for it. When we've got enough to start a thread, you (if that's what you're volunteering for) can assemble them into a neat post. That way, we won't clutter up the thread as soon as it's opened.

[txteclipse]

There's got to be a way to get people to read stickies. What if we make it so that people have to link back to the stickies at the beginning of the first post of their fic? Or to say "read the stickies!" at the end of their title or something?

What're some suggestions for titles you would totally click on if you were new to a forum?

There's a reason that "comedy" rarely enters my writing repertoire. I suck at it. -_-'

However, I will think about this. The only things that come to mind right now are obscure references to things people probably haven't even heard about, wretched puns, and things that are otherwise generally un-grabbing.

Also, would you like me to move the list I mocked up over to this thread?

[Dagzar]

There's a reason that "comedy" rarely enters my writing repertoire. I suck at it. '

Same here, all intentional humor of mine should be taken outside and shot, so I don’t have any suggestions.

For the thread compilation, too, or just the part about posting links?

Both. I even have a folder named ‘Resources’ in my favorites. Anyways, here are my resources:

Pokemon Related:
http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml - this is the first website I go to when needing Pokemon information since it’s quick, reliable and navigable (not including times when it’s as slow as hell).
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Main_Page - my second Pokemon resource, this site is useful when I need to know anime stuff, like what an attack looks like and things that Serebii doesn’t have, like Missingno / glitch stuff.

Character Related:
http://www.mybirthcare.com/favorites/babynames.asp - a nice site for getting names.

Plotting Related:
http://www.sfwa.org/2009/08/fantasy-worldbuilding-questions/ - awesome site of awesomeness. It’s a great help for building fantasy worlds like you wouldn’t believe.

Writing Mechanics:
http://dictionary.reference.com/ - exactly what is says (it even has a thesaurus!).

General:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page - not that reliable, I suppose, but it’s good for a quick fact.
http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/forum - you can find anything here and the forum comes with its own resources thread that includes information on medicine, police stuff, geography, history and so many other things.

What if we make it so that people have to link back to the stickies at the beginning of the first post of their fic? Or to say "read the stickies!" at the end of their title or something?

I don’t know, that seems kind of weird. To inform everyone that they even need to do this would require another sticky and everything would start going in circles. I also don’t think the title thing would work; it’d just turn newbies off both the fic and the stickies, not to mention I don’t think anyone wants their fic impacted that way (I like my title for my fic thread, so having something like ‘read the stickies!’ at the end of it would make me feel silly).

[bobandbill]

Originally Posted by JX Valentine

Outstanding Issues

1. The problem of people not reading stickies. It's a problem that's plagued communities for centuries. We need stickies, but we run at a risk of no one actually touching them.
- Mizan: Suggested that infractions be given out to anyone who makes it obvious they haven't read the stickies. Problem: Isn't this a bit harsh? Not to mention it can only be justifiably applied to the rules, not the guides, and Bay pointed out that this will probably make people want to be less active.

I'm just wondering if maybe this is the only way to make it work. =/ (Short of re-direction and/or large notices when someone tries to post a fic to read it and whatnot but that I don't see necessarily working either).
Maybe not infractions directly unless they repeat it over and over, but maybe instant thread closure if they don't, say, post something in their thread that they are meant to which is given in the rules sticky/others? But even that seems iffy to me... Note there will be always some people who don't read the stickies, but certainly it probably can be improved from what it is atm.

- Jax: Is suggesting now that we have fewer stickies and focus only stickying threads containing only the most important information that people might not already know. (Reviewing guide is included not out of egotism but instead because not many people seem to get what reviewing is.) As Breezy pointed out, the reviewing guide seems geared towards vets, and that's effectively who actually reads the stickies anyway. Forcing the vets to set an example by having stickies geared towards them (with the rules being the main/only n00b-friendly one) and applying what they've learned from those stickies in their interactions with writers should be able to encourage newbie and n00b authors to emulate them. As in, less need to enforce the stickies so long as vets know what they're talking about

.Yes for this. A revamp of the stickies sounds like a plan as well along with decreasing the number. Reviewing guide imo should be there as it's the bigger problems to deal with (and maybe even review-responses as well ).

Jobs

1. Challenges
Unfortunately, there's not much we can do here until we increase review quality and frequency. While reviewing is on the rise (which I do legitimately applaud you guys for), we need to refine the reviewing process a little, as pointed out by Astinus in her latest FFL post. The better the reviewing process, the higher quality fic is around here. Higher quality of fic/higher frequency of writer-to-reviewer interaction -> more fic (because people will want to post in a community known for good writers and lots of good reviewers) -> more member interest in things like challenges and contests.

Yep - improving the review quality and hence the fic quality is IMO the most important part actually - it's the biggest problem atm and would have the biggest effect if rectified as well. There is a change already, but more should be done, and hopefully refining the process so that they are better

3. Plot Bunny Thread
Volunteers, preferably those with connections to Serebii to give them the heads up that we're using them as a template or someone who's got an idea that doesn't work the same way as their thread does. I need voices out there, kids. Start talking.

Oh, this I feel I could do - I'm on sppf as a mod and talk to some fanfic mods there from time to time to boot. Doubt there would be any problems with it but shall ask away (and I guess make it once heads-up is received and responded to or wait? Up to you Astinus I suppose. =P)

5. Resources Thread
Personally, I support this idea over a guide because the guides to grammar and general fanfiction writing tended to be both incomplete and painfully outdated. Simply linking to reliable guides off-site will prevent us from succumbing to our usual bouts of ADD and wandering away from guides before they're finished. Hence, if people are also in support of this logic, start posting your favorite guides to grammar, plot development, character development, and any other writing subject you can think of. I'll also need a volunteer to organize the link list into something that's easily navigable.

Simply, yes to this.

6. Emblems
Move off of them already. The kids who are doing them already have their instructions, and if they don't, we need a handful of concise posts that state exactly what emblems we want to have.

I don't feel this warrants any further discussion for the time being, these emblems - people making them already and all are awesome for doing so but there's simply far more important things to worry about, even if they are not shiny.

Bah stupid late-night posting.

[Azurne]

1. The problem of people not reading stickies. It's a problem that's plagued communities for centuries. We need stickies, but we run at a risk of no one actually touching them.

People come to this forum because they want to read stories, right? So maybe if we spice up the stickies in 'story format', they'll actually be curious and want to click the link to read it.

It's only a suggestion, and it would be a challenge to any of the more experienced writers who would be willing to commit themselves. Personally, though, I see a lot more people clicking on a link to what they think is a story, and finding out it's a story/parody of our rules. And, if it's interesting enough, they won't hit their back button so fast.

I'm not making any sense to you now, but perhaps I can come up with an example later...

Bottom line is though, no one is going to read your stickies if they're purely a long list of 'things you should do', etc. (Or, if you have to go that route, make them as short and sweet as possible?)


Again, just a suggestion. I'm tossing out ideas since no one else seem to know what to do either.

[bobandbill]

Originally Posted by Azurne

People come to this forum because they want to read stories, right? So maybe if we spice up the stickies in 'story format', they'll actually be curious and want to click the link to read it.

It's only a suggestion, and it would be a challenge to any of the more experienced writers who would be willing to commit themselves. Personally, though, I see a lot more people clicking on a link to what they think is a story, and finding out it's a story/parody of our rules. And, if it's interesting enough, they won't hit their back button so fast.

I'm not making any sense to you now, but perhaps I can come up with an example later...

Bottom line is though, no one is going to read your stickies if they're purely a long list of 'things you should do', etc. (Or, if you have to go that route, make them as short and sweet as possible?)

Again, just a suggestion. I'm tossing out ideas since no one else seem to know what to do either.

Hmm, certainly an interesting idea at least. I can see what you mean by that - rather than a bunch of dos and don'ts in list format more an interactive or more entertaining reading of the same thing. But as said problem is how feasible this is - wouldn't be that easy to write, and I feel part of the problem would be that some people don't even look at the thread to begin with. >_< Certainly something I feel could be considered though to help garner/keep more interest for people to look/actually read the thread...

[Azurne]

Originally Posted by bobandbill

But as said problem is how feasible this is - wouldn't be that easy to write, and I feel part of the problem would be that some people don't even look at the thread to begin with. >_<

Of course it won't be easy to write, but I think it would be fun to see how far you can push the limits of your imagination. Stories are supposed to teach us morals and lessons, 'rules' or 'guidelines' in life anyway. Maybe we can see how far we can run with this?

Worse comes to worse we can just do what we've always done and slap funny titles on it and pray it's hilarious enough so people bother to click and read.

[Giratina ♀]

Azurne, how do you plan on going about doing this? Is it going to be something in the style of a bad Edutainment show (or a parody of a bad Edutainment show) where an innocent and bumbling author is put through the paces of writing a decent story? Or will it be a "teacher-student" dynamic that your fifth-grade teacher had always praised you for? Or a couple of co-writers arguing about how to handle a certain instance? Sure, it could be interesting, but it could also be anvilicious and/or boring as a result.

As for the "not reading it at all" thing... there's not much we can do about it. Sure, we can remind people to read the rules and stickies and we can have people refer to them in our reviews, but we can't plaster "READ THE GUIDES" all over our fanfics while annoying the innocent readers who don't need to take a crash course in fanfiction.

[bobandbill]

Yeah, those are valid points, Giratina. And there is a good chance it would end up worse than a normal layout as well (for instance if it gets too flowery and the exact points get lost/harder to find within the sticky itself). One main aim I feel would be for it to be as easy as possible to understand and read...so it depends how you think it would be presented and all. And no matter what there will always someone who ignores rules/etc no matter what and there's little one can do about it unfortunately, speaking from experience. >_<

Also, going to add that I already contacted the thread maker of the Plot Ideas thread on sppf, as well as a fanfic mod there about it, and got both saying 'sure, go ahead' basically about using such a thread here/as a templete.

[JX Valentine]

Originally Posted by Dagzar

Both. I even have a folder named ‘Resources’ in my favorites.

Sweet. You've got the job, then. I'd say wait until you've got enough links to cover the basics here (which I expect to be defined by the rest of you) before making the thread.

In the meantime, a few links I can throw in off the top of my head:

Character Related:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue - The most comprehensive guide to Mary Sues, believe it or not. A definition of what they are in general, followed by the basic archetypes and examples.

(I'm not offering a Mary Sue Litmus Test because these tend to be controversial. I've got links, though, if people think we should throw one in.)

Writing Mechanics:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/exercises/ - A pretty thorough guide to grammar, complete with various exercises that help you develop your grammar-related skills.
http://www.grammarbook.com/english_rules.asp - Another guide that's just as thorough as the above. Includes detailed examples and more details about rules OWL's a bit fuzzy on. (This includes a list of commonly confused words, too.)
http://orangoo.com/spellcheck/ - Online spell checker.

General:
http://community.livejournal.com/little_details/ - An LJ community geared specifically towards helping writers do their research by answering their questions. It's already an impressive community filled with information (sorted by the tags) that you can't find practically anywhere else. PC writers with LJ accounts can also sign up for the community and ask away if they can't find the answer they need in the archives.
http://www.google.com - Best search engine in the world and your first stop before trying to tear your hair out over not finding things in Wikipedia first. (Optional link, though. We could easily leave it out if it's too obvious.)

I also don’t think the title thing would work; it’d just turn newbies off both the fic and the stickies, not to mention I don’t think anyone wants their fic impacted that way (I like my title for my fic thread, so having something like ‘read the stickies!’ at the end of it would make me feel silly).

Mmm. Yeah, and I'm a bit worried about making anything in a title a mandatory thing. I'm pretty sure titles around here have a fairly short character length, so adding something like "[READ THE STICKIES]" to a story title that's more than a couple of words might cause you to hit the upper character limit, and then what'll happen?

It might be plausible to have people link to the rules sticky at the beginning of their first post, but I wonder if the newbies will just start copying the line if we make it something obvious (like "I read the rules!" on every single story) or just get scared away.

Did someone in the FFL suggest merging the rules thread with a miniature fic index to force people to read the rules if they want advertising? Would this work, or would we still have problems with people not reading the first post?


On to bnb's post, I'd like to start off by saying thank you for what you said in the FFL. I'm glad someone agrees with me and Asty, though she's seriously a softie.

Originally Posted by bobandbill

I'm just wondering if maybe this is the only way to make it work. =/ (Short of re-direction and/or large notices when someone tries to post a fic to read it and whatnot but that I don't see necessarily working either).
Maybe not infractions directly unless they repeat it over and over, but maybe instant thread closure if they don't, say, post something in their thread that they are meant to which is given in the rules sticky/others? But even that seems iffy to me... Note there will be always some people who don't read the stickies, but certainly it probably can be improved from what it is atm.

Mmm, yeah, I'm a bit worried about this because I feel like it'll scare away kids doing that as well. Technically, Astinus already auto-closes threads that are severely lacking in standards (read: are chat-script fics with very little proofreading, description, or action but are abundant in eye-bleeding fonts), and I've seen those authors try to chew her out or ask for permission to post because they can't understand that the reason why they got closed in the first place was because they didn't actually meet forum standards. (I swear to God, we have them. Sort of.)

I'd say maybe we should stray away from modding that harsh. Sure, Astinus will still have to close the fics that seriously didn't even make an effort to follow forum standards, but I feel like this is what's going on anyway and that we need to think of something beyond this idea.

Ever-changing thread titles might still help, especially if Astinus doesn't make it obvious what the titles are and why they're stickied. Did anyone else notice the reviewing guide when she threw in "unf unf unf" at the end of it? (Yeah, it was the reviewing guide and not the rules. I was tired when I mentioned that, so ignore me there. XD)

.Yes for this. A revamp of the stickies sounds like a plan as well along with decreasing the number. Reviewing guide imo should be there as it's the bigger problems to deal with (and maybe even review-responses as well -_-).

Awesome to both. Are there any other stickies that we need other than the ones I've mentioned in the first post?

Yep - improving the review quality and hence the fic quality is IMO the most important part actually - it's the biggest problem atm and would have the biggest effect if rectified as well. There is a change already, but more should be done, and hopefully refining the process so that they are better

THANK YOU.

Oh, this I feel I could do - I'm on sppf as a mod and talk to some fanfic mods there from time to time to boot. Doubt there would be any problems with it but shall ask away (and I guess make it once heads-up is received and responded to or wait? Up to you Astinus I suppose. =P)

Sweet. You can also draw up the thread if you think you have time to do it. If not, I can hand it off to anyone else who volunteers (after you say whether or not you can handle it, not before -- bolded so we don't have posts saying "lol i can do it!!1" until we know whether or not you're cool with it).

So, in other words, it's really up to you. XD

I don't feel this warrants any further discussion for the time being, these emblems - people making them already and all are awesome for doing so but there's simply far more important things to worry about, even if they are not shiny.

Also a thank you to this comment. Seriously, guys, why did it take you more than a day to figure out what should be done about four 100 x 100 pictures you can probably just crop from pictures you've Googled/gotten from stock sites (like a number of the other emblems)?


And because I got ninja'd on the way to hitting the post reply button...

Originally Posted by Azurne

People come to this forum because they want to read stories, right? So maybe if we spice up the stickies in 'story format', they'll actually be curious and want to click the link to read it.

This may just be the most epic idea I've ever read concerning stickies. It can even come with a WTF-worthy title, like "Pokémon: The Chronicles of Astinus In Rules Region" or something like that.

What do the rest of you think? Would this actually work so long as we made all of the rules clear? Hell, we could even make it a hilarious round-robin between vets (so long as we get the main point approved by Asty first).

Edit: Haha, ninja'd again. Ignore that last bit until Azurne comes back.


For anyone else who hasn't gotten a job in the first post, don't be afraid to come in anyway. We'll still need a lot of feedback on and submissions for practically everything. Some ideas (and you can certainly think of your own because I know you're all intelligent, creative people who know what's off-topic and what's not and can probably see problems we haven't yet addressed concerning what we're trying to do):

1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered?

2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be?

3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies.

4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W?

And so on and so forth. Hop to it, kids!

[Giratina ♀]

Yay! [claps]

Seriously now, we will need to keep it on track while still making it "interesting"... Perhaps there could be some nice, fiction-y explanation of the concept and then out a cute little to-the-point "lesson summary" afterward? That way we can have our cool methods of teaching, but we can also make it so that people actually understand the lessons.

Though I gotta admit, I don't think that my tangent-ridden brain is the best nominee for this. Sorry. D: However, I can spew up ideas, so whoever is tagged with that job can holler to me for it. Just saying.

[Azurne]

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀

Azurne, how do you plan on going about doing this? Is it going to be something in the style of a bad Edutainment show (or a parody of a bad Edutainment show) where an innocent and bumbling author is put through the paces of writing a decent story? Or will it be a "teacher-student" dynamic that your fifth-grade teacher had always praised you for? Or a couple of co-writers arguing about how to handle a certain instance? Sure, it could be interesting, but it could also be anvilicious and/or boring as a result.

That's not what I had in mind, actually. (I've never seen an 'Edutainment show'. >.>) It would be a real story in and of itself, with nothing painfully obvious like writers arguing amongst themselves or a boring lecture story. The most popular-written story theme around here seems to be adventure however, so that would be a theme. Fantasy as well, since this is Pokemon, after all. I also had a vague concept of a evil arch-overlord writer, something akin to Drosselmeyer from Princess Tutu, if anyone's seen that.

Since I just came up with it though I don't have a plot. I don't think it's impossible though.




---

This may just be the most epic idea I've ever read concerning stickies. It can even come with a WTF-worthy title, like "Pokémon: The Chronicles of Astinus In Rules Region" or something like that.

What do the rest of you think? Would this actually work so long as we made all of the rules clear? Hell, we could even make it a hilarious round-robin between vets (so long as we get the main point approved by Asty first).

Edit: Haha, ninja'd again. Ignore that last bit until Azurne comes back.

Pfft, I'm just suggesting ideas, a round-robin works too. These are your stickies after all.

[Giratina ♀]

BOLD TOPIC DERP

1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? I can't really help here - most of my reviews follow a really lose guideline. A. an explanation of my mood and/or first impressions of the fic before I read it, B. quoted sections for notes on single lines, C. an overview. Sadly, I can't help you here.

2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? I think if we have a sort of "playground" thread for everyone to goof off in - entirely separate from the nice, writing-oriented new FFL - then we may be able to keep the "Community" part of "PokéCommunity". Of course, if newbies start getting intimidated, we can always mow it down again. Just a note.

3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. We can't.

4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? Only that the community is just fine, but if we don't set some boundaries it won't be all that awesome for much longer.

"Pokémon: The Chronicles of Astinus In Rules Region"

THIS.

This is beautiful.

In other news, let me get this straight - are txt and I the entirety of the Emblem department, or have we picked up more people? Honestly, I think it's a one-man job, but... :/

In other other news: string cheese is officially the best food on Earth.

[Dagzar]

1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered?
We definitely need to make sure newbies know to say not only good things about a story, but bad things. “I like it! Update soon!”, is not useful other than being a very mild ego boost. Actually critiquing a story is helpful, even if it’s small things like, “Good story, but your grammar could really use some work!"

4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W?
Get a Completed Stories section. Seriously, I feel sorry for all those Oneshots that stay on the first page for a day or two and then disappear forever. We need a place to keep them all so readers don’t have to dig for hours to find a completed story. Maybe we can turn the Revision Bin into this since that section isn’t really used?

[bobandbill]

That's not what I had in mind, actually. (I've never seen an 'Edutainment show'. >.>) It would be a real story in and of itself, with nothing painfully obvious like writers arguing amongst themselves or a boring lecture story. The most popular-written story theme around here seems to be adventure however, so that would be a theme. Fantasy as well, since this is Pokemon, after all. I also had a vague concept of a evil arch-overlord writer, something akin to Drosselmeyer from Princess Tutu, if anyone's seen that.

Ok, this I like and can see as working decently IMO. =) Although maybe first we should decide what is in the sticky itself, and then the format of it in detail, probably... work at it in that matter and worry about the important content first.

And I'll reply to other stuff after sleep and some return to sanity. Also YES to completed fics section I really like that. (But guess what other forum has that? ;P)

[Giratina ♀]

Originally Posted by bobandbill

(But guess what other forum has that? ;P)

When I suggested it back in the FFL, I believe I actually compared it to the other forum that has that, sans the whole "locking" thing... but anyway, yes, I still think it is an AWESOME idea.

[Azurne]

When I suggested it back in the FFL, I believe I actually compared it to the other forum that has that, sans the whole "locking" thing... but anyway, yes, I still think it is an AWESOME idea.

Well you're not making it to rip them off, you're making it because it works. I also like the idea. =D

Originally Posted by bobandbill

Ok, this I like and can see as working decently IMO. =) Although maybe first we should decide what is in the sticky itself, and then the format of it in detail, probably... work at it in that matter and worry about the important content first.

Agreed. We can brainstorm after we've figured out what we want in it.


*noms on carrot*

1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? Well, I think they need to be taught that mindless fangirling is okay, provided it comes with a good few reasons why they are mindlessly fangirling. Mannerisms doesn't seems like it's a problem here, so I think maybe one line saying to be respectful should cut it. Aside from that, teaching them to properly analyze stories might be a plus.

2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be? I really can't say much here, seeing as I haven't lurked much enough to really grasp what needs to be done.

3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies. Well, I already presented my idea, but if I come up with a simpler solution I'll be sure to post.

4. What other ideas do you have to increase the quality of the community here at FF&W? Really haven't been here long enough to know, sorry. X_x

[bobandbill]

(I'm not offering a Mary Sue Litmus Test because these tend to be controversial. I've got links, though, if people think we should throw one in.)

I don't think a test should be linked to IMO, but maybe a mention of such things if need be?

http://www.google.com - Best search engine in the world and your first stop before trying to tear your hair out over not finding things in Wikipedia first. (Optional link, though. We could easily leave it out if it's too obvious.)

Google is not normally too obvious at all from my experiance. =P

Mmm, yeah, I'm a bit worried about this because I feel like it'll scare away kids doing that as well. Technically, Astinus already auto-closes threads that are severely lacking in standards (read: are chat-script fics with very little proofreading, description, or action but are abundant in eye-bleeding fonts), and I've seen those authors try to chew her out or ask for permission to post because they can't understand that the reason why they got closed in the first place was because they didn't actually meet forum standards. (I swear to God, we have them. Sort of.)

I'd say maybe we should stray away from modding that harsh. Sure, Astinus will still have to close the fics that seriously didn't even make an effort to follow forum standards, but I feel like this is what's going on anyway and that we need to think of something beyond this idea.

I'm inclined to agree... although again up to Astinus how she deals with those rule breakers. >:D

Awesome to both. Are there any other stickies that we need other than the ones I've mentioned in the first post?

Not that we need it per-say (and IMO it may only be worthwhile after some more work is done first), but seeing using sppf ideas that work here is cool maybe a reviewers thread (as in, people post profiles to be a reviewer people can ask for reviews from after they are approved, etc? Kinda like the beta thread though and tbh this would be low importance-wise). *throwing around ideas*

THANK YOU.

YOU'RE WELCOME. =p

Sweet. You can also draw up the thread if you think you have time to do it. If not, I can hand it off to anyone else who volunteers (after you say whether or not you can handle it, not before -- bolded so we don't have posts saying "lol i can do it!!1" until we know whether or not you're cool with it).

So, in other words, it's really up to you. XD

I think I'll manage, but I may throw some small ideas for people to respond to first in relation to this before I write a fancy-dancy version. Speaking of which:

• 1st post to tell people to post any ideas they may have
• Allow people to discuss ideas in any amount of detail (but the more the better)
• Maybe a short guide of things to consider with story ideas? E.g. how likely is such an idea to occur in the fic itself, how long will it be, etc? Hmm...
• No flaming, spam etc. =p

Oh hey questions.
1. What sorts of things do you want to see in the review guide? What are the basic issues that need to be covered? Good and bad ways to review + examples of that (and actually I now recall something Negrek - who I know stalks this place at times =P -came up with something like this - maybe could use a look-at again or something? My memory is a bit vague on it though). Maybe a simple guide on how to do a general review as well - say it doesn't have to be an essay but stress that one-liners are spammy and not helpful - rather say what you liked/disliked and why, maybe giving examples as well + mentions of mistakes that may have been noticed? That seems to be the basis of a general sort of review to me anyways...could be adjusted though. Also something regarding how to respond to reviews without being disrespectful, the 'if you post this here expect to get reviews, some which may be negative in nature', etc.

2. What improvements to the rules and the FFL do you think there should be?
The rules... hmm, maybe more on the 'don't spam' part and place emphasis that one-liner reviews come under that? IDK how relevant the 'don't abuse tags' rule actually has been either, actually... also pointing to important stickies some more obviously/continuation of that only with new links.
FFL - IMO may be better to keep it writing-orientated, doesn't mean discussion must be restricted to fanfiction though? (i.e. other writing things).

3. The ever-present question of how we can get people to actually read stickies.
I recall a pop-up window appears for people when they get a PM - maybe something similar for first-timers to the forum? Hard to ignore that... hmm. *shrugs*

[JX Valentine]

Sweet. Tons of activity while I'm gone.

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀

Seriously now, we will need to keep it on track while still making it "interesting"... Perhaps there could be some nice, fiction-y explanation of the concept and then out a cute little to-the-point "lesson summary" afterward? That way we can have our cool methods of teaching, but we can also make it so that people actually understand the lessons.

Yeah, I think this might be a good idea. While it'd be hilarious-awesome to do and definitely something people will actually want to read through just because it'd be so off-the-wall, we'll need to remember that the whole point of the rules thread is to drive home the rules. We could do the prose part and then, at the end, just put whatever we tried to say in spoiler tags.

Also, we could try to cover one concept/section of the rules per installment. For example, the chapter in which Astinus rolls out of bed and skips off to get her starter could also be laced with bits about the introduction to the rules and the very basic rules everyone just needs to follow. ("You can only get this license if you've read and understood all of PC Region's rules first." "Why do I need to know the rules of a completely separate region?" "You just do. Shut up, kid.")

Though I gotta admit, I don't think that my tangent-ridden brain is the best nominee for this. Sorry. D: However, I can spew up ideas, so whoever is tagged with that job can holler to me for it. Just saying.

I was actually thinking we could use your penchant for making lulzy legendaries here. XD

Originally Posted by Azurne

I also had a vague concept of a evil arch-overlord writer, something akin to Drosselmeyer from Princess Tutu, if anyone's seen that.

...This just planted the image of Astinus cosplaying Ahiru in my head.

Which is to say, YES, WE SHOULD DO THIS.

Pfft, I'm just suggesting ideas, a round-robin works too. These are your stickies after all.

XD Oh, I'm just the person who smacks people over the head.

As for the round robin, I was thinking it'd help things out. We could plan out a basic plot that we should follow and have everyone write out bits that cover the rules we want to throw in. Then, someone assembles the stories and proofreads/edits, and it gets slapped up on the main forum as a sticky. That way, we don't overwork a single person and can get the most important part of the forums done in less than a year, with full feedback from its team of writers. Thus, it'll probably need to be in a separate thread once we get started so we can decide on what to put in, how to work out the story, and what the plot actually is.

What do you guys think?

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀

I think if we have a sort of "playground" thread for everyone to goof off in - entirely separate from the nice, writing-oriented new FFL - then we may be able to keep the "Community" part of "PokéCommunity". Of course, if newbies start getting intimidated, we can always mow it down again. Just a note.

Not to sound bitter, but would this be a good thing or a bad thing for a forum of writers? I mean, part of the reason why people were facepalming with how the FFL was going was because people kept forgetting that they were in the writing subforum and just talked about whatever they wanted (even if some of them had PC blogs, and the rest of us didn't really care about their off-topic notes). This, of course, led to the clique atmosphere because it was suddenly "OMG FAMILY" and "OMG INSIDE JOKES" and "OMG BOLD TOPIC I'M NOT GOING TO DISCUSS ANYONE ELSE'S ANSWERS UNLESS I'M ARGUING" with only the select regulars and not, "Oh hey, this is the casual, laid-back space where writers can exchange writing-related stuff 'cause this is a writing-based community and all."

That and we could easily just link to the DCC or get a usergroup going if we want an off-topic area where kids who frequent this forum can talk about absolutely anything they want (be it writing or otherwise). In fact, that's one thing I actually forgot about: the fact that it was proposed by me that we just migrate the insanity parts to a usergroup if we really wanted to keep it so that FF&W wouldn't feel like it was excluding anyone by having this massive thread full of off-topic inside jokes. Would you guys like this to happen? If so, who would like to start it up? (Keep in mind that we could always link to it somewhere, so it's not like it'll be this obscure corner of PC.)

Only that the community is just fine, but if we don't set some boundaries it won't be all that awesome for much longer.

Admittedly, yes. The community's improving now that there's more dialogue happening between writers and readers, and yeah, this is why we've got to kick ourselves into gear: to keep it at this point or, if possible, move it forward.

THIS.

This is beautiful.

*bows*

In other news, let me get this straight - are txt and I the entirety of the Emblem department, or have we picked up more people? Honestly, I think it's a one-man job, but... :/

Honestly, I got confused by that last page. As far as I could tell, this was what happened: txt volunteered to draw something for it, you volunteered to do the emblems (using his art?), Buoysel volunteered for a single emblem, and...

Screw this BS. You get all of them. Just as long as they get done. =|

(That entire period's going to be hilarious in hindsight. I can sense it.)

Originally Posted by Dagzar

We definitely need to make sure newbies know to say not only good things about a story, but bad things. “I like it! Update soon!”, is not useful other than being a very mild ego boost. Actually critiquing a story is helpful, even if it’s small things like, “Good story, but your grammar could really use some work!"

Amen to this. You can be sure it'll be added to the reviewing guide.

Get a Completed Stories section. Seriously, I feel sorry for all those Oneshots that stay on the first page for a day or two and then disappear forever. We need a place to keep them all so readers don’t have to dig for hours to find a completed story. Maybe we can turn the Revision Bin into this since that section isn’t really used?

Interesting idea, especially since Asty's been planning to do that with the Revision Bin since forever.

Asty, what'll you'll need to have happen for that Revision Bin to be converted? Alternatively, we've got the Fanfiction Archive. Would it be a good idea to get rid of the Revision Bin altogether and simply move one-shots to the Archive after a month of inactivity? (What would we do with past FFOTMs? Allow people to comment on them from then on out? Lock them and throw up an index of where people can find them so they won't be completely drowned by one-shots? Or would it be better to just convert the Revision Bin after all?)

Someone poke Asty in here.

Originally Posted by Azurne

Well, I think they need to be taught that mindless fangirling is okay, provided it comes with a good few reasons why they are mindlessly fangirling.

Also agreed here. Short, positive reviews (the kind that point out something specific about the story/what someone liked about it specifically) are definitely okay, but we definitely have to teach kids that it's not cool to just leave it at "lololo ur a good writer plz write more!!1" ...Which seems to be happening a lot lately.

Originally Posted by bobandbill

I don't think a test should be linked to IMO, but maybe a mention of such things if need be?

Sure. That works.

Also, XD to the note about Google. Also very true.

Not that we need it per-say (and IMO it may only be worthwhile after some more work is done first), but seeing using sppf ideas that work here is cool maybe a reviewers thread (as in, people post profiles to be a reviewer people can ask for reviews from after they are approved, etc? Kinda like the beta thread though and tbh this would be low importance-wise). *throwing around ideas*

This would be an interesting idea, especially since some people like to complain that no one's reviewing their work. On the other hand, would it be too much like the beta thread? I know it was brought up in the FFL before, and someone had that concern.

I think I'll manage,

Sweet. I'll clarify that on the jobs list, then.

• 1st post to tell people to post any ideas they may have
• Allow people to discuss ideas in any amount of detail (but the more the better)
• Maybe a short guide of things to consider with story ideas? E.g. how likely is such an idea to occur in the fic itself, how long will it be, etc? Hmm...
• No flaming, spam etc. =p

All of this sounds like a good idea, especially that third one. It could be included in a second post to separate the concept of the thread from what might be a longer train of thought.

What would go into that guide, though? Maybe a list and short explanations of commonly used genres? A list of suggestions for how to find inspiration and cook it into a potential plot (since that's also a popular question 'round these parts)?

Also, I read your answers to the other questions. They pretty much made sense to me, and for the reviewing guide especially, I'll add them in.

Meanwhile...

I recall a pop-up window appears for people when they get a PM - maybe something similar for first-timers to the forum? Hard to ignore that... hmm. *shrugs*

Very true. Would it be obnoxious, and do normal mods have the power to do this?

[Astinus]

Very very very short unnecessary post because I'm really kind of tired.

Asty, what'll you'll need to have happen for that Revision Bin to be converted?

Me showing actual effort.

Oh, and also what you people want done to those sections. I mean, we have the Fanfiction Archive and the Revision Bin currently. One of those is turning into the Completed Fics Archive. Discuss amongst yourselves how the section is going to work, and I can make magic happen.

I swore that there was something else I needed to talk about, but I'm just not seeing it. If there are things that you need me to discuss, seriously shoot me a VM and be all like "Hey, lazy. Get in here."

This just planted the image of Astinus cosplaying Ahiru in my head.

Which is to say, YES, WE SHOULD DO THIS.

VV
I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

OKAY I'M DONE WITH THE EMOTICONS.

[Giratina ♀]

Originally Posted by JX Valentine

I was actually thinking we could use your penchant for making lulzy legendaries here. XD

Oh yeah. You got me there.

you volunteered to do the emblems (using his art?),

I said that if txt needed assistance on the emblems I would have volunteered to help. Of course I'd be happy to do it on Team Emblem, but like I said before, it's really a one-man operation...

Screw this BS. You get all of them. Just as long as they get done. =|

Okay! =D

Maybe a list and short explanations of commonly used genres? A list of suggestions for how to find inspiration and cook it into a potential plot (since that's also a popular question 'round these parts)?

One word: canon.

I could probably handle some of that section.

I recall a pop-up window appears for people when they get a PM - maybe something similar for first-timers to the forum? Hard to ignore that... hmm. *shrugs*

Well, technically you can turn it on and off... /shot But how exactly would that help? I'm not following here.

Discuss amongst yourselves how the section is going to work, and I can make magic happen.

Here's how I see it: When a story is finished, the user contacts Asty (or whichever other person has modly powers) to request that it is moved. Everyone who doesn't request will simply have their fic drown in the new fics that appear - I'm thinking this should be pointed out in the PokéCom Region Handbook (ad lib names FTW!) after Astinus finishes the theoretical story. They will all be stickied to prevent cropping (if that even happens here...) and left open for users to leave comments on.

[Dagzar]

Very true. Would it be obnoxious, and do normal mods have the power to do this?

(Sorry, I misread your guys’ post beforehand so I’m going on the assumption that we message the newbies instead of just Astinus).

I actually think this would be an awesome idea. I mean, newbies can be pretty shy and they’d definitely listen to a personal PM. Not only does this get the stickies to the newbie’s attention, but it’d also open up a line of communication between them and a friendly veteran. I’m not sure if I imagined this or not, but I think I remember brief talks that went on in the FFL about a veteran adopting a newbie and mentoring them…? Well, that’s what the veteran could do and could guide the newbie to Writer’s Lounge, making sure they get acquainted with people. Either way, I think this would solve our stickies problem.

[JX Valentine]

Originally Posted by Giratina ♀

I said that if txt needed assistance on the emblems I would have volunteered to help. Of course I'd be happy to do it on Team Emblem, but like I said before, it's really a one-man operation...

I quite agree, especially since they're only 100 x 100. Since you seem to be popping up more often (and because I've seen your work)... yeah, I figure you'll be able to get it done.

One word: canon.

Also very true. XD

I could probably handle some of that section.

Awesome. bnb, what do you think? Since it's your thread, you'll probably have a better handle on what needs to go into the guide part of it.

But how exactly would that help? I'm not following here.

I think his logic is that if it's this big notification that's really obnoxious and on every page of the forums, people are more likely to look at it, even as they rush to get it off their screen.

Here's how I see it: When a story is finished, the user contacts Asty (or whichever other person has modly powers) to request that it is moved.

Curiosity speaking, but are we talking about every story or just one-shots? For every story, this actually seems like a good idea. For one-shots, what would keep someone from just considering it to be a finished story and posting it to the archive?

Otherwise, I like it, so I've got nothing else to add there.

Originally Posted by Dagzar

I actually think this would be an awesome idea. I mean, newbies can be pretty shy and they’d definitely listen to a personal PM.

You've got a good point. However, wasn't there an issue that was brought up (but possibly not fully discussed) when the big sib/vet-little sib/newbie system was mentioned in the FFL? (Or was it just laziness/the issue of trying to decide who would qualify as being a suitable tour guide to the newblets?)