Project Max Revive: FF&W Revitalization Project

Breezy · May 4, 2010

A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

Well, er, no. A plot bunny is called a plot bunny because it gnaws at the brain (like bunnies) until you write something about it. You know, I'm sure this has happened to you when you're trying to sleep, but some awesome idea for a story pops in your head, and you have trouble sleeping because of it. That is a plot bunny.

Annoying buggers, no? =P

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotBunny

You're right in the sense that it's hard to ignore it, but it doesn't mean an idea that will lead you nowhere. You may have gotten that definition because people often use other people's plot bunnies (think of a fanfic adoption thread) because the original creator doesn't know what to do with it, or is too lazy to use the idea.

But really, it has come under general acceptance that plot bunny is referring to a plot idea anyway.

Edit here: And if we were to use your definition of plot bunny (that it's an idea that leads no where), then the thread title actually seems better suited because you have other people trying to help you figure out where you want to go with this story while hammering out the kinks.

~ ~ ~

Edit: Also, because the first post asked for an outsider opinion ... I can't really comment on the planned stickies as, well, you guys have that handled, so I'm going to address something different that concerns all the stickies. That question is: who's going to be reading these stickies if you can't get anyone new to come into them? Why is it that new members (and maybe some new members who are experienced in other forums) don't seem to be really entering these sorts of conversations?

Tl;dr summary: This is a post about your forum's vibe; it does not necessarily mean this is actually happening in the forum. A lot of people I talked to outside your community seem to be turned off by the tone that is being reflected in this forum – that is, they get a feeling that the veteran members gives off an air of them knowing everything and all disagreements are wrong. A newbie's opinion doesn't seem to hold the same weight as a veteran's, and that's not how it should work. If agreements go on for too long, the tone becomes more hostile than constructive. Basically, don't jump to assumptions, keep your tone neutral, and fully read and understand posts, even if you don't agree with them.

In short, you have to address HOW you're posting and not just what improvements need to be made because what's the point of these shiny new stickies if no one, besides you guys, posts in them? Newbies will come and help if they don't think they'll get their head bitten off from it. It is a process that requires both sides to come to some sort of middle ground. New members who are experienced with forums will have no problem coming in and butting heads because they're probably use to it by now (ahem), but as for the new, like new-to-forums, member ... well, it's damn scary.

Like your first day of high school. Relive that horror.

The spoil is just me rambling about what I said above, but with example goodness!

Spoiler:

I honestly do have to ask this, and this is strictly because I really don't know the inner detail about what's going on. You all seem aware of some sort of problem (is this just newbies not reading stickies, or something more? I'm not all that sure). But at the same time, do you think the forum requires changing – at least to this extent? Why? What benefits do you think will happen once you do make these changes? Will the community become a more open, friendlier place? Will the forum revert back to its original, glory state? And what exactly was that "state" anyway?

Essentially, I understand that the goal is to "improve the environment," but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of?

An-chan · May 4, 2010

Giratina ♀ said:
. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

I disagree with the "leading nowhere"-part. If it makes you chase it, if it's entirely unnecessary and distracting, then it's a plot bunny. I think it's almost perfectly interchangeable with "plot idea", the only difference being that a plot bunny implies a much shinier, more distracting idea. It's also catchy, and I say the thread should be named as it is.

Other than that, let's see what I have to comment about...

Well, for one thing, I dislike the idea of Official Mentors for the review-a-review thing. To me, it seems like another way to promote the vets and widen the gap between veterans and newbies. And, from what I gather, that's pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish here. To be honest, I find the whole idea of reviewing reviews a bit futile, as it is a highly personal thing what kind of reviews one wants to read or write, but on the other hand, it could turn out to be very useful, so I don't know.

And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all.

Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new.

Frankly, my friends, I think you keep drifting away from the original problem. Yes, this is a revolution, but this should be something the whole writing community does together for the whole writing community. You seem to keep drifting back to what veterans can do for veterans in this revolution. Think of the newbies! How would you feel, right now, coming to all this after just having discovered the section/fanfiction in general/the fandom/whatever? Try to focus on what's really important, and this could actually go somewhere.

And sorry I haven't been here before, I kinda have these pesky entrance exams to study for.

Now, you may proceed to beat me up.

Silawen · May 5, 2010

And - I just know you're all going to beat me up for this - I'm also not a very big fan of this whole reviewing emblem thing. Somehow the idea of people writing reviews to get shiny emblems bugs me a lot, especially when there will be visible stats of how each reviewer is processing. It's yet another number to compare to other similar numbers and that always causes competition - it could be playful, good-humoured competition, especially at first, but it could also change into something completely different. I also feel that the whole emblem thing will eat away the credibility of all less active/newer members: if you have a shiny emblem, your word is surely more convincing and reliable than that of someone who lacks any kinds of credentials. The way I see it, it's also just another way to flash around the fact you're a vet and experienced and have credentials. Members equipped with a special, shiny emblem will intimidate newer members, and this will not help the original problem - the gap between vets and newbies - at all.

Yes, emblems are irresistible and shiny, especially the one txt already made. It would be awesome to have an emblem on your favourite section. It would be awesome to have proof that you're active and really put your mind into reviews and so on and so forth. But, frankly, I don't think this'll help the integration problem any more. No, I fear the effect might be the opposite of that. I know I would be intimidated by that if I was new.

I have to agree. The idea of having to write a minimum amount of reviews to get a shiny badge just doesn't sit well with me, especially because it could lead to more of a veteran/newbie divide. This is something that would be much easier to achieve for veterans - who have experience here and have reviewed a lot more often - than it would be for new arrivals.

Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be.

(Asking for any amount of posts for an emblem always rubbed me the wrong way, because some people simply have more time than others and it certainly doesn't make them more capable at reviewing. I'm a teacher, I don't have a lot of outside time, but I do spend a lot of time on my reviews. Am I therefore a worse reviewer than someone who manages to write two in the same time-span? I'd like to think not. Reviewing should be about quality, not enforced quantity. I wouldn't want to feel forced to write a certain amount of reviews if I wanted an emblem.)

Those who received the emblem could then be mentioned in the sticky - or normal thread, whatever is decided on - regarding this subject, preferably with reasoning as to why their review was chosen. That way people are shown examples of what constitutes as a good review and they could be inspired to start reviewing as well. This way they won't have to first write dozens of reviews before even qualifying. It urges people to review - because they have an immediate goal to strive for - and won't create such a divide between people because the emblem was giving for a review and not the reviewer or his post count.

bobandbill · May 5, 2010

^ That. That that that. Now I have read above on this reviewer thing... yeah, the 'needs to make a minimum amount of reviews' thing and whatnot doesn't sit well with me (and I for one never care about fancy stuff like emblems anyways =P). After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.

Giratina ♀ said:
Well, first off, you'd need to do a grammar check. I saw a couple of typos in there. : P

Yeah, I'm aware of that. XD I was too tired to go through it again/not in the mindset to proofread something I just wrote bar the more obvious mistakes. Actually I might go fix that/attempt to do so soon...

Seriously though, it seems like a good summary; however, I did notice that you used the term 'plot bunny' an awful lot. A plot bunny does not equal a plot idea - a plot bunny, as I have always understood it, is a plot idea that gets you to chase it, leading nowhere. I've slapped together my viewpoints on the term.

"Plot idea" and "plot bunny" are not interchangable terms; are you treating the thread as an idea-sharing thread or an "Okay, I've got this cool idea I can't use, what do I do" thread?

...as the others said I thought that plot bunny meant plot idea... and definately is for ideas people may/intend to use for a fic they'll write rather than give away necessarily. =P

Of course as said the thread title/term used could be changed but eh.

Essentially, I understand that the goal is to "improve the environment," but what was the environment like before that it needs this much of a change? I understood that it was chatty in the FFL and it made it hard to stay on track and allow new members to jump in, but this is a lot of work. Are there other problems that I'm not aware of?

Breezy, I suppose you basically hit all of the problems on the head - all that with the vibe and the clique-y feel and so forth - and that's the main things that I don't feel were about a few years back.

Of course addressing and 'fixing' it completely is a different matter...

Miz en Scène · May 7, 2010

Eh... I'm feeling a bit stupid now for doing the rest of the thread before reading the posts here. While I agree with An-Chan on that the RpM thing might just widen the vet-noob rift, I'm going to address a related issue in response to that.

Personally, I'd stick to one emblem only. Have it be the one that someone - Astinus? - hands out to someone who's written an exceptional review. It doesn't matter who they are or how often they review, it's about the quality of one, single review. Meaning newbies as well as veterans could get them and it's not based on how active you can be.

Total agreement here, but there was a time --and it still is-- where the FF Community here at PC lacks in the reviews section. I'm sure vets and the like can knock up a spectacular review in half and hour or so for a fic and this happens at least once a day for one fic, but what about all the other twenty or so fics on the page that barely get a single review? For certain people, the temptation to do a long review is there and I'm sure that nobody has the time to do twenty-one long reviews a day. I've addressed the issue where rank emblems would be considered cheap, but I really couldn't put my finger on what was quality and what wasn't so I decided on a really lax criteria for the emblem from what Astinus said on what counted as reviews.

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that these rank emblems weren't to award people for quality reviews. They were initially devised to get people to actually do reviews and stop everyone from slacking off into oblivion. The actual reviewer's emblem, was the one to award quality reviews.

Also, a bit more on what An-Chan said about statistics, post count does the same thing actually not that I completely disagree with what you said. Also, it's actually a hidden incentive because, from a psychological perspective, there's something vaguely exciting about seeing your numbers rise. That's why penny arcade games were so popular way back when.

After all it's never easy to review and review well consistently month in month out, and good reviewing isn't even about how often you write one - it's the review itself and how it helps the author improve, etc that matters.

I couldn't agree with you more, but at the moment, on the front page, I can really only see three or four constant reviewers and only one out of those four people can be considered a quality reviewer.

Anyway, because I'd feel wasted if I didn't actually post the thread draft here for comments, here it is.

Spoiler:

Bay · May 8, 2010

Urgh, need some catching up to do. Dang school. >.>;

Hm, since no one really commented on bobandbill's plot bunny draft, I'm going to real quick. Besides the typos Giratina mentioned, everything else is looking good. However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something?

As for the reviewers emblem/minimum reviews thing, bobandbill, Silawen, and An-chan already mentioned the flaws of it, mostly on the veterans-newbie gap. So yeah, they said it much better than I could.

Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one.

There's also one thing I want to add while reading your draft:

Basically, a reviewer is one who comments on fics(Fiction/Fanfiction) and leaves a constructive comment that is aimed towards helping the writer improve upon his writing skills and a reader is one who leaves a constructive comment detailing what he liked about the fic and not necessarily stating how it could be improved upon. To recap; a reader comments(constructively) on what he liked, and a reviewer tells the writer what he likes(not essential) and helps the writer improve by picking out certain mistakes and giving comments on how they could be fixed.

Hm, maybe other people might disagree with me on this, but I feel a reviewer can also be someone that just comments what he likes and doesn't like in a constructive manner. I mean, this can let the writer know what he's doing good and what he's doing bad, so that helps him in a different way.

Miz en Scène · May 8, 2010

Bay Alexison said:
Mizan, while I agree there should be an incentive to get the people reviewing too, not really sure if this system will work. Sorry to mention this again, but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews. Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do. Third, we don't just want the new people to just review. I get that you want more reviews there and hence why you have this more lax criteria on reviews here. Eventually we want them to improve their reviewing and I'm afraid with this system they will care more about the emblems instead of trying to make their reviews better than the last one.

Just saying that I'm not the only one who's finding the lack of reviews a problem by the way. Saying this just because if it seems like I'm having a personal campaign to get people to do more reviews and everyone else doesn't care about it. If memory serves, Jax mentioned the lack of review thing so yeah... Anyway, while I agree with what you're saying about quality over quantity, I feel that we really need to come up with a compromise here. On one hand, we have plenty of reviews, but most of them short and lack quality; on the other hand, we have long, quality reviews, but they're infrequent and only certain writers can get their fic reviewed. On the subject of the lax review criteria, that's there for the sole reason that anything higher than that would be way too stringent and if I were to make it vague, people might complain. For example, saying "must point out 5 things and make corrections" really would be unfair and would debilitate the flexibility in most reviews. Vague review criteria will arouse questions like, "why doesn't mine count?" and decision making which I, as an ordinary member, don't have the authority to do...

but not sure if you'll have the time to track the reviews.

It's updated monthly and reviews are posted in the thread so I know what to check. People who don't post reviews in the thread, I won't check so I'm not wasting my time. I'm basically following claim thread format so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Second, Astinus will have to give out the emblems if the people request them, which I don't think she'll have time to do.

/Agreement because time is also a restraint to me...

What does Astinus feel about this matter though?

Hm, maybe other people might disagree with me on this, but I feel a reviewer can also be someone that just comments what he likes and doesn't like in a constructive manner. I mean, this can let the writer know what he's doing good and what he's doing bad, so that helps him in a different way.

I totally get where you're coming from and I'm tempted to change it, but then we could say that every proper post in the F&W qualifies as a review because all posts are meant to be constructive anyway and everyone who comments is basically pointing out something specific (not overly specific) that he likes.

And uh, sorry if you feel like I'm antagonizing your views on the subject, but I'm not because you're the only one to comment on the draft as of yet. Thanks.

JX Valentine · May 8, 2010

Mizan de la Plume Kuro said:
On one hand, we have plenty of reviews, but most of them short and lack quality; on the other hand, we have long, quality reviews, but they're infrequent and only certain writers can get their fic reviewed. On the subject of the lax review criteria, that's there for the sole reason that anything higher than that would be way too stringent and if I were to make it vague, people might complain. For example, saying "must point out 5 things and make corrections" really would be unfair and would debilitate the flexibility in most reviews. Vague review criteria will arouse questions like, "why doesn't mine count?" and decision making which I, as an ordinary member, don't have the authority to do...

This is why I told you to wait until I'm ready to get to the reviewing guide. The reason why is because a lot of these criteria can be covered in revisions I know need to be made to Reviewing and You. It's egotistical, yes, but I've looked at my guide long enough to know exactly what's wrong with it. That and there's a lot on the subject a person probably can't cover in the first post of something that's meant to be a reviewing activity and not a reviewing, well, guide.

And even then, we've already begun to discuss (albeit on the rules thread, although there's smatterings of it on both the FFL and this one) what is and isn't a good review. A review is just something that points out something specific about the story and states what the reader thought about it honestly. It doesn't have to be pages upon pages long, but I agree that it's not really a one-liner either. It can be, at the very bare minimum, just a paragraph that states, "Oh, I really liked what you did in this chapter. These parts struck me in particular." No corrections necessary. No pages. No deconstruction of a fic. Just pure, simple honesty in a nutshell.

Of course, the new guide would also go into more detail once that bottom line is established, but.

As for the lack of reviewers, yes, I said that there was a distinct lack of them. As in, the FFL had this fun little tendency of not doing anything but sit around and go on and on about Sentrets with flamethrowers or something. However, this isn't like the people-don't-read-stickies problem where there's one pretty simple solution (when you get right down to it, at least). There's probably a completely different way of going about doing it, but we'll need to take a good look at every possible system. A few people have already said that emblems and a NaReWriMo will both have very serious problems. In that case, let's put aside those ideas for now and try to come up with a different solution.

So, let's start by approaching the problem in a different direction. Why don't you (in general) review? Is it because of a lack of time? If we establish the idea that a review only has to be a paragraph or a handful of things you can spot right off the bat, would that make you review more? If not, what would?

In other words, I'll have to thank you for your work, Mizan, but let's pull back for now and work on the foundation again before we do anything else.

Miz en Scène · May 8, 2010

JX Valentine said:
This is why I told you to wait until I'm ready to get to the reviewing guide.

I assumed you meant the actual thread, not a draft. I guess I was wrong so my apologies.

bobandbill · May 18, 2010

*bump*

Well anyone else still alive? =P Let's keep this moving, shall we?

Maybe we should focus on things one at a time... say addressing that problem about making this section friendly-looking to newbies rather than seeming elitist and whatnot (and along with that more discussion on the FFL -what WOULD it be aimed to be like? What would people want in an FFL that they would enjoy and also newcomers would feel at home in as well?) Maybe we should rebegin the ffl by first defining what is its aim/purpose and what would be allowed/encouraged within it.

And anything else to say about the beta thread posted above in a spoiler on this page no matter how insignificant? I've half a mind to post it so might as well do all of the necessary edits in one go rather than chopping and changing. Such as on Bay's mention on this:

However, the "How to come up with the Plot" and the "Plotting itself" are kinda saying the same thing. Maybe merge them together or something?

Dagzar · May 18, 2010

Maybe we should focus on things one at a time... say addressing that problem about making this section friendly-looking to newbies rather than seeming elitist and whatnot

To make this section friendly, we simply have to be friendly. We should be polite and not lash out when someone comes along with a different opinion. As long as we do that, I don't think we'll have further trouble.

(and along with that more discussion on the FFL -what WOULD it be aimed to be like? What would people want in an FFL that they would enjoy and also newcomers would feel at home in as well?) Maybe we should rebegin the ffl by first defining what is its aim/purpose and what would be allowed/encouraged within it.

I think the FFL should be designed to discuss writing and only writing. People can use the thread to ask questions, whether regular or bold. Obviously, we should close the current FFL to make way for the new one, and really, I think that specific thread is one of the reasons newbies don't post in there. It's, like, one thousand pages of discussion and anyone would be intimidated just looking at it.

About the beta thread thing, here's my thoughts on it.

The more detailed your summery of your idea, the better.

The first 'your' in that sentence seems off. It's look better if you used 'the', instead. Also, Dictionary.com assures me that it's 'summary', not 'summery'.

First thing you should probably consider is to not rush your plotting – it applies to writing, and shouldn't apply to your plotting.

I think you mean 'should'.

… Yeah, the only problems I could find were spelling mistakes that are probably already outdated. Though, I don't think 'How to come up with Plot' and 'Plotting Itself' are redundant since I see the former as an introduction, the main idea, while the latter is going over the smaller details.

An-chan · May 19, 2010

Dagzar said:
I think the FFL should be designed to discuss writing and only writing. People can use the thread to ask questions, whether regular or bold. Obviously, we should close the current FFL to make way for the new one, and really, I think that specific thread is one of the reasons newbies don't post in there. It's, like, one thousand pages of discussion and anyone would be intimidated just looking at it.

I don't think the length of the thread is the issue. I mean, back when I came here as a newbie, it wasn't that much shorter, and that holds true for many of you. Why did you originally post in it and become a part of the community? It never was entirely about writing, and it hasn't been a short thread since forever. While agree that we might want to restart the whole thread, that's not what will fix the issue of elitist FFL.

For one, I think bold topics shouldn't be allowed, at least not in the format they have been seen so far. They give way too much room for ignoring newbies, enforce concentrating on just the question and your own answer, and don't really ever bring anything new to the table. They used to work, back a long time ago, when they weren't the only means of conversation in the FFL. They were there just to make the question clearer. Lately, it's been just bold topic after bold topic after bold topic with a side dish of general randomness. For me, it never was the inside-y randomness that kept me away from the thread that was my favourite place in the internet not too long ago, it was the influx of bold topics.

That's not a discussion, guys. It doesn't create a warm atmosphere. It creates an atmosphere in which you're not required to read every post, leading to everyone reading only the posts of their pals or people they know. It creates an atmosphere in which igniting a real conversation looks troublesome and seems like it would break the normal pace. It creates an atmosphere that is just no welcoming at all. That is why I stopped posting in the thread, and I wasn't even a newbie.

It's attitudes that need to change, not rules. I don't really like the idea of outright banning bold topics because they can be used well and be very useful, but when it comes down to it, they are a big part of why the problem was born in the first place. Thus, it's not really the rules that created the issue; it's the attitudes. Attitudes need to change. A lot of you have already mentioned that's the case, but I've yet to see anyone take any kind of action with regards to this.

We're all equal, dammit. No matter how long you've been writing or how good your grammar is, we're all equal. Someone might be a better writer than someone else, but that's not what's important. Everyone's opinions should have the same value. That just hasn't hold true here for a long time, even if it should. And that is also why I'm against emblems.

… Yeah, the only problems I could find were spelling mistakes that are probably already outdated. Though, I don't think 'How to come up with Plot' and 'Plotting Itself' are redundant since I see the former as an introduction, the main idea, while the latter is going over the smaller details.

They're also different, in my opinion: coming up with the basics of the plot is a different process than sewing the plot into something that doesn't have holes in every turn. One can happen in nanoseconds, while the other always invariably needs a lot of time to be successful. Also, I believe most people who wander into writing already have a plot of some sort thought up, but they might not have sewn all the holes out of it just yet. So, yes, I think the two should be kept separate. You could explain this issue in the thread, also, to make it clearer why there are two almost redundant-sounding sections in it.

Astinus · May 19, 2010

So what? We either outright ban bold topics, or we keep bold topics. If we ban them, then more in-depth discussions can take place that require reading of every post. If we keep them, then new members don't feel out of place or feel that there's a gap (because what if the discussion is on something that not all beginning writers know, and so not all people can join in).

One reason why I liked the bold topics is because they gave a way for people to join in. They [tried to] encompass everyone, from the experienced "veterans" to the brand-spanking-new members who don't know anyone.

It's just that bold topics were used as a way for people to sneak in with on-topic posts mixed in with silly random posts. And since there were no rules for the FFL, and since the moderator had no idea what was going on because no one believes in communication, things spiraled out of control.

Honestly, I'm all for restarting the FFL. With a new thread that has clear rules and a defined purpose, I can keep control of this. (I'm saying "I" because I'm planning on staying here as moderator until the day I die.) The current FFL started off as a place for announcements about new stories/chapters and then evolved to what we have now: a floundering mutation of nature. If it starts off clean, then it can remain clean.

We need an attitude adjustment. That I agree with. But we can't just say "Change your attitudes!" without some guidance as to how. And keeping someway for the new members to join in helps, whether that's with bold topics or something else entirely.

JX Valentine · May 21, 2010

You know, it seems to me that if we're going to argue back and forth about the very, very basics (what purpose bold topics serve, what the definition of open and friendly is, that sort of thing), maybe we're not the best people to ask. I mean, we're already biased enough as it is; vets will probably look at the system and either say it works because it always has or it doesn't because of nostalgia goggles. So, maybe it might be better to ask the kids posting in the main forum why they don't come to the FFL (other than the construction). Maybe even show them a page from a couple months ago and ask them if they would join in on something like that and why or why not.

Because, really, the entire question hinges on the opinion of those kids, not us. We could try changing to make things better, but without knowing what one half -- the half we're trying to attract in the first place -- is thinking, we'll probably argue ourselves into a circle again like we're doing right now.

So, yeah. How about some of us (and not just one person, either, 'cause we're trying to be friendly and open and all) try to drop those people a few VMs to get their opinions?

Astinus · May 21, 2010

I'll volunteer myself for that job. And do some other things that will hopefully attract those in the main forum over to these threads.

Giratina ♀ · May 23, 2010

Val brings up a good point. We can speculate all we want on what the New Kids will think of this or that, but the fact of the matter is we're all used to it by now and trying to get into the heads of the New Kids could come out with some extremely varied results. I don't know if I want to do that job myself (it seems sort of like VM/PM advertising, which is one of my pet peeves), though... sorry. XD

Astinus · May 26, 2010

I put up an announcement to try and get people to notice this thread. Even those members who post only in Poetry. But the announcement failed, so if we actually want things to happen, it's going to have to get drastic.

Which means that we might have to lean towards the annoyance side and drag those precious new members screaming and kicking into this thread to get their opinions on things. VMs and PMs might have to be sent out.

I also think that another thing that might help is all you wonderful veterans not being around. Some of you might actually be busy, and that's fully understandable, but I'm not following the reasoning behind the fact that the FFL got many posts when things were fun, but helping out this section to not die is something people shy away from.

So, for right now, the focus is going to be getting the opinions on those new people who haven't seen this thread for whatever reason. We need to show them that their opinion matters in this, so that they will post. How do we get them to come here?

Who's with me in bothering the people? I volunteer because apparently my life is over.

bobandbill · May 26, 2010

I'm in - bothering people is fun. =P Leastways I'll bug when I have time for it.

I also propose a sig campaign of sorts - sure announcement didn't work out but if a number of us promote the heck out of this thread then hopefully at least one person will wander in here... =/ ~~Surely an old man dancing is attention grabbing for someone!~~

(Also cheers for more feedback on the thread - I'll get back to that sometime).

Kipher · May 26, 2010

Astinus said:
I put up an announcement to try and get people to notice this thread. Even those members who post only in Poetry. But the announcement failed, so if we actually want things to happen, it's going to have to get drastic.

Reading does'nt appeal to some pepole, and those who write stories enjoy what they do. Maybe they are reading the stories, but they're just to shy to admit it. And those who possibly have a enjoyable story might keep to themesleves. This is a problem in my class, the shy kid in the corner in the room that no one likes becuase of whatever has a story that would turn even my head.

I'll get a story out there, but will it be read?

Delusions of Originality · May 26, 2010

Hm, bugging the new kids. I'll just save you the trouble, shall I? :P

Anyway. I haven't been around all that long, so I don't know much about... whatever you guys seem to think is going on, much like Breezy said in an earlier post. From what I gather after reading this thread and skimming the FFL and wherever else you've been discussing this, these are the core issues you are currently trying to address, details of any shiny new revamps aside:

1. The number and quality of fanfic reviews. Many stories are not getting reviews, and those reviews that are given are generally not of a very high quality. You're looking for an incentive that will encourage more frequent reviews, and possibly a way to improve the quality and usefulness of these reviews.

2. The running of the Fanfiction Lounge. First, it is a bazillion pages long and so supposedly looks scary to us poor little newblings. Second, apparently you are all prone to going horribly off-topic, ostensibly defeating the purpose of a "Fanfiction" Lounge intended for discussing, well, fanfiction. Third, um... something about "bold topics", I think? I can make an educated guess as to what you guys mean when you say that, though I'm not entirely sure what they are or what problems you're having with them.

3. New people don't seem to read the rules/stickies, resulting in rampant mistakes. Self-explanatory.

And all of this talk about emblems, story-format rules threads and other stuff is essentially what you're tossing around as the solutions to these three basic problems. Am I right? Did I miss something?

I guess what I'm saying is that, as a new person, I'm not entirely sure what sort of input I can give without a more thorough understanding of the alleged situation; I'd just like to make it absolutely clear before I say something stupid that you guys have already thought of or whatever. I'm sure you're all tired of repeating yourselves, but... is that the gist of what's going on?

Project Max Revive: FF&W Revitalization Project

More options

Breezy

Eee.

An-chan

Whoops.

Silawen

bobandbill

one more time

Miz en Scène

Everybody's connected

Bay

Miz en Scène

Everybody's connected

JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord

Miz en Scène

Everybody's connected

bobandbill

one more time

Dagzar

The Dreamer

An-chan

Whoops.

Astinus

JX Valentine

Your aquatic overlord

Astinus

Giratina ♀

what's your sign?

Astinus

bobandbill

one more time

Kipher

The author riding the raptor.

Delusions of Originality

good night, sleep tight