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View Poll Results: Do you enjoy this thread?
yes i do! 9 81.82%
only meerfall's peoms 2 18.18%
only peoms made by someone else other than meerfall 0 0%
no i don't 1 9.09%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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  #26    
Old February 5th, 2011, 05:46 AM
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Meanwhile, I will give some haikus an on-the-spot try on Eevee myself...kinda. =p Random idea I had. Hopefully the late hour did not affect my syllable-counting skills. XD

Pfft amused Meerfall had a similar idea to mention its evolutions. XD But I suppose it is a very notable feature of Eevee.



Decisions

Decisions to make.
Unsure which is best for him,
My little Eevee.

Seven paths to choose.
Seven ways to make him strong,
Helpful, and useful.

Maybe this booklet,
On what type to consider,
Shall help me decide.

The way of water?
The ability to swim,
Would be rather neat.

But... we'd need a pool.
And truth be told those blue fins,
Look quite weird to me.

Electricity...
He could zap his opponents,
And dash very fast.

But... if he is hugged,
Is surprised, and shocks someone?
That would be quite lame.

Fire is good for fights!
He could also keep us warm,
During camping trips.

But... flames are not safe,
And I would hate for the tent,
Be ashes instead.

Grass is a nice type.
He would enjoy the garden,
And the forest too.

But... when winter comes,
He would find it rather dull,
And that would not do.

Speaking of winter,
That season is made for Ice,
And we'd have snow fights!

But... the downside is,
Summer would be the time he'd hate!
He would be too hot.

Psychic has its pros...
He could tell me other's thoughts
And trick people too.

But... the sad thing is,
He could read all my thoughts too.
I like privacy.

Dark is pretty cool.
He would make Hide and Seek fun,
And make nighttime safe.

But... what if he would,
Become withdrawn, reclusive?
No, I would hate that.

Too many decisions.
All have pros but also cons.
This could take a while.

Maybe I will just wait.
Let him decide when the time,
Is right for him alone.

He should know what's best.
But always to me, he is,
My little Eevee.
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  #27    
Old February 5th, 2011, 10:48 AM
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That's a clever haiku, bobandbill. Good job.

Chainsaw Meowth.........just hilarious. I don't know why, but it is. :cer_laugh:

Eevee is nice, but I believe one thing you are missing is spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Those are important elements in poetry too.

Keep it up!
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  #28    
Old February 5th, 2011, 10:52 AM
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thank you tjgamer for the compuments
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  #29    
Old February 5th, 2011, 11:06 AM
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You're welcome.
Keep practicing, learning, and improving, and you'll be a master at Pokémon poetry.

And I voted "Yes, I do" in the voting section.
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  #30    
Old February 8th, 2011, 08:08 PM
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A few days after reading about pokemon black and white I awoke with a poem in my head. This is almost a prophecy in a way. I know its bad but I wanna see what be think about it. (its probably horrid why do I even bother)

When Guardian of Black
and Guardian of White
meet each other there begins a fight
and a gray horizon is formed
An lo, the end of man is born
only one can stop this destruction
one partner with one imbued with lightning
And there man's destiny is decided
with a battle ending in a clash of lightning

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  #31    
Old February 8th, 2011, 08:43 PM
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This reminds me of good old Professor Oak. Even though his poems were.... I don't want to say crappy....
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  #32    
Old February 8th, 2011, 09:40 PM
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The story is pretty nice. Especially since I'm anticipating Pokémon Black and White a lot!
Some capitalization would help make the poem a bit more neat. Also some punctuation.
But since you're obviously a beginner at poetry (are you?) I'll go easy on this one.
Nice work.
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  #33    
Old February 9th, 2011, 10:47 AM
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Yeah, I'm pretty new to poetry. There was more to the poem but it faded before i could write it down.

I'm gonna try a Pikachu poem I made when I was young but have been trying to improve. (once again I know this is not good)

Pikachu

Oh Pikachu, Mouse of lightning,
You are so determined when you're fighting,
When times are hard you don't surrender:
Oh Pikachu, you're lightning's defender
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Last edited by theowlmanlives; February 9th, 2011 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #34    
Old February 9th, 2011, 11:27 AM
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It's a tad strange, but I actually like this one.
It's a short, warming poem that describes everyone's favorite Pokémon.
Good job!
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  #35    
Old February 9th, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theowlmanlives View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty new to poetry. There was more to the poem but it faded before i could write it down.

I'm gonna try a Pikachu poem I made when I was young but have been trying to improve. (once again I know this is not good)

Pikachu

Oh Pikachu, Mouse of lightning,
You are so determined when you're fighting,
When times are hard you don't surrender:
Oh Pikachu, your lightning's defender
I like this poem, it's short and sweet

Quote:
Oh Pikachu, your lightning's defender
But in this line shouldn't it be 'you're lightning's defender' instead of your?
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  #36    
Old February 9th, 2011, 12:29 PM
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Lol forgot that, I'll edit it

Deoxys

Oh one who comes from outer space,
In any form you have weird look on face,
Of all the forms you can be,
Speed is the one favored by me

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Last edited by theowlmanlives; February 9th, 2011 at 12:46 PM. Reason: I FEEL LIKE IT lol
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  #37    
Old February 9th, 2011, 01:13 PM
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Great structure and style!
It's unusual when a poem states your personal opinion, but I guess there's always a first time.
Keep it up!
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  #38    
Old February 9th, 2011, 01:18 PM
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Poetry easily comes to me
It floods my mind like a great sea
When a poem comes to my head
I write it quickly, that's all there is to be said.

Also does anyone know the name of the pokemon in Meerfall's signature that looks like a flying squirrel, next to zoroa or however you spell the name.
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  #39    
Old February 9th, 2011, 01:30 PM
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Heheh. That one was pretty clever.

And unfortunately I don't know that Pokémon's name either. In fact, I don't want to until Black & White are released.
I like things to be a surprise.
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  #40    
Old February 9th, 2011, 01:33 PM
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Slightly abrasive side note (hope you don't mind or anything):

Quote:
But in this line shouldn't it be 'you're lightning's defender' instead of your?
Tip: If you're going to correct someone's grammar, please go all the way to avoid having a line still be grammatically incorrect after your suggestions.

That being said, you're still missing something there. Namely, the line would have to read "you are a lightning defender" to avoid something that sounds like Engrish. "You are lightning defender" doesn't make sense on its own.

Will probably come back to submit an actual review to this thread later.

Also, it's called an Emolga.
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  #41    
Old February 9th, 2011, 01:33 PM
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I found the name
of the pokemon from that game
emolga is the name of the creature
Black and white has a very cool feature!

Gimme a break people, I'm new at poetry!
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Last edited by theowlmanlives; February 9th, 2011 at 01:44 PM.
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  #42    
Old February 9th, 2011, 02:01 PM
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I understand you're new at this thing. I wasn't too good myself when I first came here.

Now this poem is good, but I suggest you should keep the amount of syllables in each line similar.
Know what I mean?
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  #43    
Old February 9th, 2011, 02:04 PM
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Yeah i know what you mean.
I found a new avatar! Emolga

I've been around poetry to long, every time a new pokemon game has its us release date announced a weird prophecy dream comes into my head. diamond/pearl/platinum really got annoying. I had a hard time to get the poem out of my head. It would be creepy if a prophecy poem I made in my dreams became part of a pokemon movie and i never told any body the poem.
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  #44    
Old February 9th, 2011, 02:27 PM
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TJgamer
A Pokémon Poet
 
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That is very strange.
Love your new avatar, by the way.

Here's one of my old poems that I've posted over a year and a half ago.

Butterfree's Metamorphosis
Written by: TJgamer

Stop, look, and listen to my speech,
About the changes of a Pokémon we know,
I'll describe the different steps each,
Please listen to my words and follow.

We first spy upon a Caterpie,
A larvae-like creature that shoots out its thread,
Once it wraps itself in its chrysalis we see,
A new Pokémon in its stead.

A Metapod it has now become,
But it's growth is not quite complete,
When it works hard and developes some,
It will become a beautiful Butterfree.

Honey is its most collected prize,
Honey is what they obtain,
You won't believe your eyes,
It can collect in the rain.

And now you know and can see,
the awe-spiring metamorphosis,
Of a little Caterpie.
__________________
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It has power that I know,
Learn to like it,
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  #45    
Old February 9th, 2011, 02:28 PM
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To theowlmanlives, well, yes, you're new. That's why I commented on one of your reviewers to give her tips on how to give you advice – because you probably don't want advice that falls just short of helping you improve. In short, I was telling her that it's okay to correct your grammar, but in doing so, she's going to have to make sure what she's telling you to do doesn't end up creating another grammatical error because that wouldn't exactly be helpful for you. Additionally, it would help to point out why certain points need to be corrected so that writers and poets would be able to grasp what the problem actually is in order to avoid it in the future.

With that being said, let me comment on your poetry. It's not bad for a beginner's work. However, your most recent poems seem like they focus more on the rhyme scheme instead of meaning or creating an image. For example, let's look at your latest poem.

To start things off, you did a decent job at making every line rhyme. However, each line doesn't have the same number of syllables in it. Remember, poems rhyme to create a sort of musical tone to the ear. What that means is if you read a rhymed poem out loud, it should sound pleasant. This is achieved by not only making sure that every line rhymes but also by making an effort to get each line to have the same number of syllables. This creates meter, a beat or rhythm to your poetry. Think of it like the drums or base melody to a song. Most songs have that rhythm that makes sure that every note is on time, but think of what would happen if the music from all the other instruments didn't match the drums. Hard to listen to, right? Same deal with poetry.

Also, rhythm signals when a rhyme would come in. For example, your first line is only four beats long, but your second one is eight. (Your other lines are ten each.) As a result, your first line seems incredibly short in comparison if a reader went back over it – if your second line doesn't just come off as overly long because the reader expects the rhyme to occur four beats ahead of where it does, if that makes sense. In other words, it just makes the rhythm seem a little off.

Beyond that, the rhyme itself. While it was cute and worked for the most part, it felt forced at the end with the last line. The reason why is because that line seems a little too vague. What feature? Emolga? Is this a line that says Black and White are cool games in general? Why is this line talking about the games when the rest of the poem is talking about a single Pokémon? It just doesn't seem to fit quite as well as the other lines, basically.

You also do the same kind of thing with the Deoxys poem and its second line. You're trying to rhyme "space" with something, and in an effort to figure out what you should do, you end up talking about a weird look on Deoxys's face. Except Deoxys is expressionless, and you're talking about its forms otherwise. (You also don't really go into why its speed form is your favorite, but I'll get into general meaning in a moment.)

In short, one of the mistakes a lot of new poets tend to make is that they force their poetry to rhyme. Don't sacrifice meaning for a rhyme scheme because if you do that, your poem will just fall short of making sense. As abstract as poetry is sometimes, it always focuses on meaning over presentation. Presentation just makes it more appealing and artistic.

Speaking of which, let's talk about general meaning, too. We've talked about how the Emolga poem seemed to start talking about Black and White out of the blue (no pun intended) and how the Deoxys poem falls short of really being an ode to Deoxys. Don't let this part intimidate you. What I'm basically saying is that in order to succeed at poetry, you'll want to remember that poetry is not just about rhyming or about saying something in a bunch of lines. It's also about connecting your ideas with your readers. What I mean is if you say something, go all the way with it. If you want to talk about Deoxys, show us what about it appeals to you. Describe to us its forms and what it does. Use imagery to make us see what Deoxys looks like.

Beyond that, play with our emotions a little. Instead of just talking about Deoxys being appealing to you, tell us about how you feel when you see one. Are you excited as it zooms around a battlefield? Describe to us your heart pounding. With Emolga, what about it fascinates you? There's got to be something more to Emolga than just the fact that you learned its name. Connect the reader to what you're talking about by making them feel something about the subject of your poetry, basically.

In short, it's not that bad for a start, but it feels like you could push beyond basic conventions. Don't be afraid to play around more with other styles of poetry, and try putting your heart into what you write, if that even makes sense to you.

Might come back to review TJgamer's poem later.
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  #46    
Old February 9th, 2011, 02:41 PM
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OK, I understand your advice and will work on that. Thanks for the help.

Also sorry, perhaps its not a good idea to be writing poetry a few hours after waking up as it affects the mind and makes ideas harder to come up with.
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Last edited by theowlmanlives; February 9th, 2011 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #47    
Old February 9th, 2011, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JX Valentine View Post
To theowlmanlives, well, yes, you're new. That's why I commented on one of your reviewers to give her tips on how to give you advice – because you probably don't want advice that falls just short of helping you improve. In short, I was telling her that it's okay to correct your grammar, but in doing so, she's going to have to make sure what she's telling you to do doesn't end up creating another grammatical error because that wouldn't exactly be helpful for you. Additionally, it would help to point out why certain points need to be corrected so that writers and poets would be able to grasp what the problem actually is in order to avoid it in the future.

With that being said, let me comment on your poetry. It's not bad for a beginner's work. However, your most recent poems seem like they focus more on the rhyme scheme instead of meaning or creating an image. For example, let's look at your latest poem.

To start things off, you did a decent job at making every line rhyme. However, each line doesn't have the same number of syllables in it. Remember, poems rhyme to create a sort of musical tone to the ear. What that means is if you read a rhymed poem out loud, it should sound pleasant. This is achieved by not only making sure that every line rhymes but also by making an effort to get each line to have the same number of syllables. This creates meter, a beat or rhythm to your poetry. Think of it like the drums or base melody to a song. Most songs have that rhythm that makes sure that every note is on time, but think of what would happen if the music from all the other instruments didn't match the drums. Hard to listen to, right? Same deal with poetry.

Also, rhythm signals when a rhyme would come in. For example, your first line is only four beats long, but your second one is eight. (Your other lines are ten each.) As a result, your first line seems incredibly short in comparison if a reader went back over it – if your second line doesn't just come off as overly long because the reader expects the rhyme to occur four beats ahead of where it does, if that makes sense. In other words, it just makes the rhythm seem a little off.

Beyond that, the rhyme itself. While it was cute and worked for the most part, it felt forced at the end with the last line. The reason why is because that line seems a little too vague. What feature? Emolga? Is this a line that says Black and White are cool games in general? Why is this line talking about the games when the rest of the poem is talking about a single Pokémon? It just doesn't seem to fit quite as well as the other lines, basically.

You also do the same kind of thing with the Deoxys poem and its second line. You're trying to rhyme "space" with something, and in an effort to figure out what you should do, you end up talking about a weird look on Deoxys's face. Except Deoxys is expressionless, and you're talking about its forms otherwise. (You also don't really go into why its speed form is your favorite, but I'll get into general meaning in a moment.)

In short, one of the mistakes a lot of new poets tend to make is that they force their poetry to rhyme. Don't sacrifice meaning for a rhyme scheme because if you do that, your poem will just fall short of making sense. As abstract as poetry is sometimes, it always focuses on meaning over presentation. Presentation just makes it more appealing and artistic.

Speaking of which, let's talk about general meaning, too. We've talked about how the Emolga poem seemed to start talking about Black and White out of the blue (no pun intended) and how the Deoxys poem falls short of really being an ode to Deoxys. Don't let this part intimidate you. What I'm basically saying is that in order to succeed at poetry, you'll want to remember that poetry is not just about rhyming or about saying something in a bunch of lines. It's also about connecting your ideas with your readers. What I mean is if you say something, go all the way with it. If you want to talk about Deoxys, show us what about it appeals to you. Describe to us its forms and what it does. Use imagery to make us see what Deoxys looks like.

Beyond that, play with our emotions a little. Instead of just talking about Deoxys being appealing to you, tell us about how you feel when you see one. Are you excited as it zooms around a battlefield? Describe to us your heart pounding. With Emolga, what about it fascinates you? There's got to be something more to Emolga than just the fact that you learned its name. Connect the reader to what you're talking about by making them feel something about the subject of your poetry, basically.

In short, it's not that bad for a start, but it feels like you could push beyond basic conventions. Don't be afraid to play around more with other styles of poetry, and try putting your heart into what you write, if that even makes sense to you.

Might come back to review TJgamer's poem later.

first of all be easy on the newbie! presentation does not matter, grammer or spelling! he does not have to explain an emoga or the cool feature because we already know what it is! rhyming is important because unlike NONE rhyming peoms, rhyming peoms acatally sound good when read! it does not need to create a picture because we know what it is! and they are dead good even if they sound like oaths because most great oaths are remeberal and COOL! for example team rocket in english verison!

so theowlmanlives is a cool poet who is starting off and soon will expand on his poems in his own time without anyone like YOU putting him down! say only nice things or leave him alone!
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  #48    
Old February 10th, 2011, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeerFall View Post
first of all be easy on the newbie!
:/

MeerFall, when you post your work on a writing forum, you're asking for feedback by default. Otherwise, you have no reason of posting on a forum because you really don't want to hear honest opinions from everyone.

Additionally, as I've said in the very first paragraph of my review, newbies need help. I recognize he's a newbie, but we cannot hold a newbie's hand and say that everything they do is stellar. Sure, we can't be bags of snark, but concrit is good for their development because it shows them what areas they should focus on if they want to get better. If no one tells them what they can work on, then there's no way they'll be able to learn for themselves. It's like knowing how to ride a bike and watching someone who doesn't know without saying a word. It's meaner just sitting back, watching them fall over repeatedly, and saying nothing but "you're doing a great job," than it is to actually go over to them, help them up, and show them the best ways to keep their balance.

Just telling them they're doing a great job if you can see where they can improve is patronizing to them -- which means it makes them feel like you think they're stupid. Telling them as objectively as possible that their work isn't bad but that they could make it better if they kept certain things in mind tells them that you think they're intelligent and capable enough to improve. And that's something I really do feel, if I may say so right here, that a lot of people in the poetry forum need to learn because there's an abundance of vague reviews that either say a poet can do no wrong or don't go into detail about what could be improved, and that's not really helping anyone. You guys want to become better poets? It's the same route as learning how to become better writers or better anything. You learn how to take and grow from concrit because there's a lot of people out there on the internet or even in publishing in general who won't give you the courtesy of a negative review that's aimed to teach you something.

Quote:
presentation does not matter, grammer or spelling!
Curiosity speaking here. Not trying to flame you or anything. Just can't come up with a better way of putting this, but... how much of my review did you read? O_o I mean, if you read it all the way through, you'd notice the two things I didn't even touch on once were grammar and spelling. My entire review was all about the elements of poetry he could use to make his poems better: meter, imagery, and meaning. As in, what he needs to make his poem sound better and be more effective. No nitpicks or anything of the sort.

The only comment remotely linking to grammar and spelling in that entire post was the explanation as to why I was suggesting a correction in an earlier post. That was brought up because of Dulcet's (another reviewer's) post, which was a grammatical review that introduced another grammatical error. This is why I was saying it was okay to do a grammatical review in that paragraph. There's nothing wrong with doing so; you would just have to make sure you're careful so that you don't suggest anything that only adds in other grammatical errors. In other words, my entire first post here was meant as a way to help the author by teaching a reviewer. I just happened to use theowlmanlives as an example because that's who Dulcet was trying to correct.

Quote:
he does not have to explain an emoga or the cool feature because we already know what it is!
If that's the case, then without knowing anything about the poet, tell me what his thoughts about Emolga are or what this "cool feature" is. As you can see, the entire poem he wrote concerning Emolga is completely about finding out what its name is. It doesn't say anything about his feelings concerning it or what he thinks of it. I never said it was a terrible poem (which you would have also noticed if you actually read my review carefully instead of quoted it just to, ironically enough, tear me a new one in the exact fashion that you accuse me of doing to other poets). Just that it's cute for a beginner but that he can get better beyond that.

Hilariously, yes, I was actually giving him a roundabout compliment -- that he's the one I thought might actually get better if he was given a push in the right direction. Notice how I said that it was okay for a beginner, as if to imply that I thought he could do better if he made a few changes to see what happens. Also note that he's the only poet so far that I've bothered to review in this thread, even though I could have very well reviewed your poetry, TJgamer's, or anyone else's in this thread. Nope. I decided to focus on theowlmanlives because I noticed he was a beginner and that he looked like he'd be the type who'd be better with some polish. Why would I waste my time and energy submitting flame reviews or reviews to people who I don't think would appreciate a few words of advice? Submitting flames would result in drama, and if I tried submitting concrit to anyone I knew wouldn't benefit from it or wouldn't readily accept it, that's a good several minutes of my time that I could have spent doing something else down the tubes.

In short, by submitting concrit, I'm actually complimenting theowlmanlives a crapload of a lot more than if I did if I just submitted an "OMG UR THE BEST POET EVER" review. I'm actually treating him like an intelligent writer who has potential.

And, incidentally, to stay on topic... yes, he's both. Quite clearly, too, for acknowledging that he's new at this. I vehemently deny ever saying that he wasn't either. *short salute to theowlmanlives here*

Quote:
rhyming is important because unlike NONE rhyming peoms, rhyming peoms acatally sound good when read!
This is entirely an opinion. If you read my review, you'd also note that I never said that free/blank verse poetry is better than rhyming poetry. While this is my personal opinion (and is a completely different matter because it's not grounded in any kind of objective observation), all I said throughout my review is that rhymed poetry needs a sense of meter (the entire thing about beats and percussion and syllables) in order to achieve the exact effect you just described -- namely, to sound better.

As a note, free verse and blank verse can sound just as good if you read it aloud. You just need to find the right kinds of free verse. I'd suggest anything by Allen Ginsberg or Gregory Corso myself, but Charles Simic is also one of my favorites.

Either way, part of the point of poetry in the first place is to pleasure all of the senses. All poetry should sound good, even free verse. If it doesn't, you're clearly doing something wrong.

Quote:
it does not need to create a picture because we know what it is!
That's not why I brought up imagery and went on that entire paragraph concerning meaning. :/ I said that imagery is a good thing, not because the reader needs to know what a Pokémon looks like but instead because imagery touches on a reader's senses. If they visualize your vision of your subject, then they start to feel something towards it on an emotional level. It's a lot like looking at a really good painting. You feel something if you can see all the details, but you don't quite get that same emotion if you look at a stick figure drawing done in fifteen seconds. (So, yeah. More of a tip to theowlman here. Hopefully, that makes things a little clearer for you, too because I know that part was a bit on the vague side.)

Quote:
and they are dead good even if they sound like oaths because most great oaths are remeberal and COOL!
Team Rocket is probably a bad example. A lot of fans are already sick of their motto, and a number of them don't really care for the newer ones.

Not to mention I'm not even really sure what that has to do with anything, considering we're not talking about anything remotely concerning the Team Rocket motto. (The first was, in my opinion, pretty snazzy. I don't like the others, however. Especially the latest one with its gratuitous Shakespeare quote that makes the English major in me cringe. But again, this is just my opinion.)

Quote:
so theowlmanlives is a cool poet who is starting off and soon will expand on his poems in his own time without anyone like YOU putting him down! say only nice things or leave him alone!
Please don't tell me what to say. However, if you really must tell me to tone my reviews down or post only rainbows and sunshine for every writer in this forum, please at least read what I have to say first. It makes it more of a challenge to defend my reviews the less I have to say, "I never actually said anything like that in the first place, so... yeah." :|

In short, I'm not here to hurt anyone, MeerFall, but the truth is, this section really needs more people with the balls to speak their mind and a decent understanding of poetry to help people along with some halfway decent advice. I don't get how you can think that by eliminating concrit (by restricting everyone to submitting only positive reviews, I'm guessing), you think you can figure out how to improve. On what are you supposed to focus if you're never told where your weaknesses are? What should you be looking up if you're not given tips on what to look up? How do you avoid making the same mistakes over and over again?


That being said, theowlmanlives, sorry about the above rant/bits of drama. It's no problem, and don't worry about the timing, either. Some of the best poets came up with their stuff while high (on pretty much everything you can possibly think of, sometimes all at once), so you can definitely do it while groggy. All you have to do is remember to put some heart into it, and you'll be fine.
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Last edited by JX Valentine; February 10th, 2011 at 01:48 AM.
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  #49    
Old February 10th, 2011, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JX Valentine View Post
:/

MeerFall, when you post your work on a writing forum, you're asking for feedback by default. Otherwise, you have no reason of posting on a forum because you really don't want to hear honest opinions from everyone.

Additionally, as I've said in the very first paragraph of my review, newbies need help. I recognize he's a newbie, but we cannot hold a newbie's hand and say that everything they do is stellar. Sure, we can't be bags of snark, but concrit is good for their development because it shows them what areas they should focus on if they want to get better. If no one tells them what they can work on, then there's no way they'll be able to learn for themselves. It's like knowing how to ride a bike and watching someone who doesn't know without saying a word. It's meaner just sitting back, watching them fall over repeatedly, and saying nothing but "you're doing a great job," than it is to actually go over to them, help them up, and show them the best ways to keep their balance.

Just telling them they're doing a great job if you can see where they can improve is patronizing to them -- which means it makes them feel like you think they're stupid. Telling them as objectively as possible that their work isn't bad but that they could make it better if they kept certain things in mind tells them that you think they're intelligent and capable enough to improve. And that's something I really do feel, if I may say so right here, that a lot of people in the poetry forum need to learn because there's an abundance of vague reviews that either say a poet can do no wrong or don't go into detail about what could be improved, and that's not really helping anyone. You guys want to become better poets? It's the same route as learning how to become better writers or better anything. You learn how to take and grow from concrit because there's a lot of people out there on the internet or even in publishing in general who won't give you the courtesy of a negative review that's aimed to teach you something.



Curiosity speaking here. Not trying to flame you or anything. Just can't come up with a better way of putting this, but... how much of my review did you read? O_o I mean, if you read it all the way through, you'd notice the two things I didn't even touch on once were grammar and spelling. My entire review was all about the elements of poetry he could use to make his poems better: meter, imagery, and meaning. As in, what he needs to make his poem sound better and be more effective. No nitpicks or anything of the sort.

The only comment remotely linking to grammar and spelling in that entire post was the explanation as to why I was suggesting a correction in an earlier post. That was brought up because of Dulcet's (another reviewer's) post, which was a grammatical review that introduced another grammatical error. This is why I was saying it was okay to do a grammatical review in that paragraph. There's nothing wrong with doing so; you would just have to make sure you're careful so that you don't suggest anything that only adds in other grammatical errors. In other words, my entire first post here was meant as a way to help the author by teaching a reviewer. I just happened to use theowlmanlives as an example because that's who Dulcet was trying to correct.



If that's the case, then without knowing anything about the poet, tell me what his thoughts about Emolga are or what this "cool feature" is. As you can see, the entire poem he wrote concerning Emolga is completely about finding out what its name is. It doesn't say anything about his feelings concerning it or what he thinks of it. I never said it was a terrible poem (which you would have also noticed if you actually read my review carefully instead of quoted it just to, ironically enough, tear me a new one in the exact fashion that you accuse me of doing to other poets). Just that it's cute for a beginner but that he can get better beyond that.

Hilariously, yes, I was actually giving him a roundabout compliment -- that he's the one I thought might actually get better if he was given a push in the right direction. Notice how I said that it was okay for a beginner, as if to imply that I thought he could do better if he made a few changes to see what happens. Also note that he's the only poet so far that I've bothered to review in this thread, even though I could have very well reviewed your poetry, TJgamer's, or anyone else's in this thread. Nope. I decided to focus on theowlmanlives because I noticed he was a beginner and that he looked like he'd be the type who'd be better with some polish. Why would I waste my time and energy submitting flame reviews or reviews to people who I don't think would appreciate a few words of advice? Submitting flames would result in drama, and if I tried submitting concrit to anyone I knew wouldn't benefit from it or wouldn't readily accept it, that's a good several minutes of my time that I could have spent doing something else down the tubes.

In short, by submitting concrit, I'm actually complimenting theowlmanlives a crapload of a lot more than if I did if I just submitted an "OMG UR THE BEST POET EVER" review. I'm actually treating him like an intelligent writer who has potential.

And, incidentally, to stay on topic... yes, he's both. Quite clearly, too, for acknowledging that he's new at this. I vehemently deny ever saying that he wasn't either. *short salute to theowlmanlives here*



This is entirely an opinion. If you read my review, you'd also note that I never said that free/blank verse poetry is better than rhyming poetry. While this is my personal opinion (and is a completely different matter because it's not grounded in any kind of objective observation), all I said throughout my review is that rhymed poetry needs a sense of meter (the entire thing about beats and percussion and syllables) in order to achieve the exact effect you just described -- namely, to sound better.

As a note, free verse and blank verse can sound just as good if you read it aloud. You just need to find the right kinds of free verse. I'd suggest anything by Allen Ginsberg or Gregory Corso myself, but Charles Simic is also one of my favorites.

Either way, part of the point of poetry in the first place is to pleasure all of the senses. All poetry should sound good, even free verse. If it doesn't, you're clearly doing something wrong.



That's not why I brought up imagery and went on that entire paragraph concerning meaning. :/ I said that imagery is a good thing, not because the reader needs to know what a Pokémon looks like but instead because imagery touches on a reader's senses. If they visualize your vision of your subject, then they start to feel something towards it on an emotional level. It's a lot like looking at a really good painting. You feel something if you can see all the details, but you don't quite get that same emotion if you look at a stick figure drawing done in fifteen seconds. (So, yeah. More of a tip to theowlman here. Hopefully, that makes things a little clearer for you, too because I know that part was a bit on the vague side.)



Team Rocket is probably a bad example. A lot of fans are already sick of their motto, and a number of them don't really care for the newer ones.

Not to mention I'm not even really sure what that has to do with anything, considering we're not talking about anything remotely concerning the Team Rocket motto. (The first was, in my opinion, pretty snazzy. I don't like the others, however. Especially the latest one with its gratuitous Shakespeare quote that makes the English major in me cringe. But again, this is just my opinion.)



Please don't tell me what to say. However, if you really must tell me to tone my reviews down or post only rainbows and sunshine for every writer in this forum, please at least read what I have to say first. It makes it more of a challenge to defend my reviews the less I have to say, "I never actually said anything like that in the first place, so... yeah."

In short, I'm not here to hurt anyone, MeerFall, but the truth is, this section really needs more people with the balls to speak their mind and a decent understanding of poetry to help people along with some halfway decent advice. I don't get how you can think that by eliminating concrit (by restricting everyone to submitting only positive reviews, I'm guessing), you think you can figure out how to improve. On what are you supposed to focus if you're never told where your weaknesses are? What should you be looking up if you're not given tips on what to look up? How do you avoid making the same mistakes over and over again?


That being said, theowlmanlives, sorry about the above rant/bits of drama. It's no problem, and don't worry about the timing, either. Some of the best poets came up with their stuff while high (on pretty much everything you can possibly think of, sometimes all at once), so you can definitely do it while groggy. All you have to do is remember to put some heart into it, and you'll be fine.
i'm not saying to post rainbows and sunshine (what ever that is :/ ) but just review everything with a little bit of criterziem and expanding to with good points also you are putting him down by writing big blocks of text and aload of criterziem. he has done many things right like

1. theme (that is hard to stay topic/theme)
2. rhyming (hard as well)
3. basing on experence (very hard if it is personal)
4. trying

everyone has two sides just like a coin but everyone wants to see the shiny side! the 'happy' side. to me you only see the side of improvement! you want everyone to improve, when you can improve a bit more too like not writing too much and just ignoring things that is not your problem! ever heard of 'their is always room to improve!' but you are forgetting that even if there is room to improve, sometimes you are better off relaxing and amire how far you have gone!

so please be easy on newbies as their is room to improve but the only way to encorge them is to tell them thier good points and let them improve in their own way on what they thought was good and what they think is terrible!
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Old February 10th, 2011, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeerFall View Post
i'm not saying to post rainbows and sunshine (what ever that is :/ )
At the risk of being overly blunt, if you want to criticize the way I review, please reread my review first. Also, read everything in this guide that I'm linking to right here.

First off, I never said he was terrible. Stating that again. I said he had potential, but there's a number of things that he needs to improve. It's against the point of reviewing to post nothing but praise and a tiny bit of criticism if you have something more to say than that. The entire point of reviewing is to state exactly how a reviewer feels about someone's work, and sometimes, it's not going to be completely positive. Sometimes, what you have to say in terms of criticism needs examples so your point is completely clear. Just because it's long doesn't mean I think he sucked. It means I think my point wouldn't have been clear if I didn't say a lot.

So, the size of my review has absolutely nothing to do with my tone. In no way was I snarky or attempting to insult him. Ever. Everything I had to say was an effort to teach him things I know about poetry.

Quote:
1. theme (that is hard to stay topic/theme)
This is an opinion. Personally, I feel that he could have executed theme better or that the theme just wasn't exactly there. As I've said about his Emolga poem, it was just talking about finding out about its name, and the last line went off-topic anyway. I was giving him pointers on how to avoid that because I thought he was an intelligent enough writer to figure out how to use them.

Quote:
2. rhyming (hard as well)
This was actually something I said wasn't that bad in my review. Please read what I have to say again.

Quote:
3. basing on experence (very hard if it is personal)
This depends again. Another problem I had with the Emolga poem is that while it was a personal story, there wasn't much emotion to it. It didn't feel personal. Same thing with the Deoxys poem, although I could see that he had a good idea that could be expanded upon.

Quote:
4. trying
Yes. And as I've said before, it'd be mean not to help him after that point with a bit of concrit on how to improve. Remember the bicycle analogy? Doing nothing but praising him or limiting the amount of concrit you give him now is the equivalent of just sitting by the side of the road and saying nothing while you watch someone fall off their bike over and over again.

Quote:
everyone has two sides just like a coin but everyone wants to see the shiny side!
Yes, everyone wants praise, but if you give people nothing but praise, they'll never improve because they don't know what needs to be improved. Put it this way. Say there was a little piece of spinach in your teeth, and you were walking around looking a little funny because of it. People could go up to you and smile and say you have pretty eyes and that's it, but you still won't know there's a piece of spinach in your teeth. If someone gave you a mirror or said that there's something in your teeth, then you'd know, and you'd be able to get the spinach out without a problem. The people on this forum who are giving concrit are the people with mirrors. The people like you who only offer praise are the people complimenting eyes instead. You might think you're making them feel better, but it's actually all the other reviewers who point out specifics that help shape writers.

Quote:
the 'happy' side. to me you only see the side of improvement!
You should be careful with what you say, MeerFall. You just told me you don't take concrit, and that kind of attitude generally doesn't go over well in writing communities.

But aside from that, I'd like to point out that every review you've made in this thread has been deleted due to a lack of content. My reviews, meanwhile? I've been thanked for them, and a few people have actually told me their English and writing styles have improved thanks to what I've told them. You can't sugarcoat what you have to say. You can say it as politely as you can (which I do believe I did because nowhere in my review did I attempt to offend him or be sarcastic to him), but if you don't tell someone how you think they can improve, they will never know what to work on. Period.

Come to think of it, I'd like to point out the fact that theowlmanlives actually thanked me for my review himself and that we were actually getting along pretty well. I gave him some concrit, he accepted, I complimented him a little more and gave him encouragement, and we were going to go on our way. Then, you stepped in to rip me a new one (which you claim I'm doing) over something that doesn't involve you in the first place. Chill out, back off, and let me do my work. I've been doing this kind of gig for a very long time, and I don't take too well to people getting in my face about it.

Quote:
you want everyone to improve,
Um, yes. Isn't that a good thing? :/ Because, you know, this means I think everyone has the potential for being an amazing, professional-level writer, but it takes some effort to bring out the best in them.

Actually, let me tell you again what the entire point of a writing community is. We're not here to post our work and pat each other on the back. A writing community is a place full of amateurs (every single one of us, including me) who hang around each other so we can give each other the help we need. No one here is perfect (and I never said I thought anyone was, especially me), but we can't just stay in one place and not help each other by offering up concrit to one another.

Quote:
when you can improve a bit more too like not writing too much and just ignoring things that is not your problem!
To be blunt, just because you don't want to read a long post doesn't necessarily mean that this is a point of improvement.

Also, so... let me get this straight. You want me to fail at being a reviewer by not submitting reviews at all because I should ignore fics and poems with problems because all the problems in them are "not my problem."

Look, if you want to tell me to shut up, you can come right out and say it. I really wouldn't mind. I'd probably have to put you on my ignore list if you did and maybe also report you for flaming, but at least you'd get that off your chest.

Quote:
ever heard of 'their is always room to improve!'
Yes. That would be the entire reason why another author would sit down and offer up some constructive criticism. It's not to tear down someone (as I've said for the umpteenth time). It's to help them improve by pointing out where that wiggle room for improvement is.

Quote:
but you are forgetting that even if there is room to improve, sometimes you are better off relaxing and amire how far you have gone!
...Except if you're a newbie, you haven't really gone much of anywhere, which is why people like me attempt to teach you how to go further. This isn't to insult newbies. It's to state that it's rather early to admire your progress when even you realize there's a lot you can learn. It's the mark of a mediocre writer (at best) who wants to stay in one place and admire their work constantly instead of learn more about writing. Just saying, MeerFall, that it might be a bad idea to keep up that attitude. I'm worried that you see yourself as a writer who doesn't need to be better than what she already is, and that would be rather sad for someone who loves poetry.

Quote:
so please be easy on newbies
Oh, darling, you've never seen a reviewer who was actually mean. Just be thankful for that. Trust me on that one.

Quote:
the only way to encorge them is to tell them thier good points
I can only wonder what your teachers must be like if they never tell you how to improve on your methods. Did you ever make a mistake in class? Did the teacher pat you on the head and tell you good job over it or only tell you that your plus sign was pretty even though you tried to say that two and two are five? Same concept here.

Again. I've been reviewing for awhile. I know what I'm doing. People have thanked me for helping them, and I've only seen improvement under my methods. Example? Go read Mizan's work. He used to be one of the people I beta read for. Another example? theowlmanlives and I ended our conversation on decent terms.

It's only when I encounter people like you who can't take concrit and get on my case for minor things (like the length of my reviews) instead of actually reading what I have to say that I start to have a problem and get blunt like I am right now. Maybe you should take some of your own advice, take a deep breath, and avoid snapping at people over things that don't concern you. It just doesn't really help either side. Picking a fight embarrasses the person you're trying to defend (because you're making a scene), and it only gets the person you're fighting angry. It's just not a good way to go about things, y'know?
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Last edited by JX Valentine; February 10th, 2011 at 09:18 AM.
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