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  #1    
Old May 29th, 2011, 12:15 AM
Conjurer's Avatar
Conjurer
The Verdant
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Gender: Female
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Where the Sidewalk Ends

Where the sidewalk ends, dreams begin...


I. Introduction
Hey there, welcome to my RMT. 8] So lately I've been messing around with bulky offense, which was okay, but I decided I would go back to my forté and play stall again. So what with upcoming "stall-immune" threats such as Reuniclus, Espeon and Sigilyph, along with new mechanics that turned out to be a mixed bag for stall (Taunt's now 3-turn duration, at the price of SR being incompatible with DW due to the removal of the TM, etc.) So I've decided to see for myself what kind of niche would a stall team serve in the BW metagame. So without further ado, I present you: Where the Sidewalk Ends.

II. Team Building Process
Spoiler:


Well, I decided I was going to build a stall team, so I started off with the classic/cheap/overused/nub combination, SkarmBliss. DON'T JUDGE! >8|


When I saw Sigilyph I immediately fell in love with it. Beast typing, excellent defensive stats, Cosmic Power and the ability to pass on burns to boot. It was just...wow.


My choices for a spinblocker was effectively narrowed with Rotom-A's loss of their Ghost-typing. I tested Jellicent, Dusclops and Dusknoir, ending up liking Jellicent's results the most.


Forretress provided access to all 3 hazards, and I needed a Toxic Spiker. If Sleep Powder misses Roserade messes up, and Scolipede was just too frail. So I ended up with Forretress who has Sturdy (and doesn't lose HP in Sandstorm) who also managed to keep an offensive standing in my team, with Gyro Ball hitting faster sweepers ridiculously hard.


I needed a lead that could SR, so I tested out a bunch. I tried the commonly used Hippowdon, but that nulled Blissey's Lefties and I didn't like that. Azelf and Uxie were the other two, but Azelf didn't pack the same punch with all these new threats running around and Uxie was 2HKO'd by just about everything. So I ended up with this: Deoxys-S. It gets SR up 99% of the time, handles a lot of opposing leads with one of the game's fastest Taunts, and Magic Coats the foe's entry hazards right back. Overall, it's an awesome lead.


There were two obvious flaws in my current team: the inability to counter CM Reuniclus and the fact that it gets utterly destroyed by mixed attackers. So that's what Chansey and Latias are doing here; wall mixed attackers and tell Reuniclus to GTFO (well, only Latias does the latter but still).


Even with its titanic defense, there are still some physical attackers that Skarmory can't beat. I needed another physical wall, and I decided that losing Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin wasn't that fatal to my team. (okay, maybe the latter, but still...) So in comes Gliscor, with its impressive physical bulk, considerable attacking oomph and access to Swords Dance. It's the glue that ties the whole team together, covering up the last weaknesses and adding the finishing touch.


III. At a Glance

IV. A Closer Look

@ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Psycho Boost
- Magic Coat
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock


There is no competition for Deoxys-S when it comes to crushing opponent leads. Sure, it might not be too bulky, and sure, it might not be too strong, but one look at its Speed stat will summarize how dangerous Deoxys-S can be when utilized correctly. Psycho Boost demolishes dangerous offensive threats such as Breloom and Conkeldurr, both fearsome foes to a stall team. Magic Coat acts as a pseudo-Magic Mirror ability when used with correct prediction, and, thanks to its priority and Deoxys-S's high speed, allows it to beat common Prankster leads such as Whimsicott and Sableye. Taunt is a staple on anti-leads; since leads are typically used to use stat upgrades (either as an attacking lead or as a baton passer) and lay entry hazards, Taunt is able to prevent both leads from achieving their respective goals, though Magic Mirror can better cover the latter. Aside from being an effective anti-lead, Deoxys-S has another important duty to the team, and that is laying Stealth Rocks. This takes priority over all its other jobs, so I usually make him lay it first, see what the opponent does, and respond with the correct move (or switching out). To put it briefly, Deoxys-S is a vital member to the team that won't be replaced easily, but feel free to try.

@ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes


Skarmory appears in a massive percentage of stall teams, and this team is no exception. Often noted as one of the most prestigious Physical Walls of the game, it comes with a useful utility movepool that includes Spikes, Roost and Whirlwind, which is the crux of most Skarmory movesets. With fully laid hazards, Skarmory's Whirlwind will do an incredible amount of damage, and between its incredible physical bulk and Roost, physical attackers can't touch it, leaving them helpless to be phazed away. Of course, its weaker special bulk is often a huge drawback that may shoot Skarmory down from its reign of terror; however, with proper team support this issue would be solved to everybody's satisfaction. Put simply, Skarmory is this team's main Physical Wall that can do several important tasks aside from taking physical hits.

@ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic


Chansey acts as the other half of my pseudo-SkarmBliss combination, and takes the special hits in place of Skarmory. Chansey has no Leftovers in a metagame that seems to be based around Sandstorm, which means she has a risk of losing 1/16 of her HP per turn each time she strikes into battle. So why Chansey over Blissey, you may ask. Several strong points make up for her loss in Leftovers, one of the most prominent being its ability to tank Mixed Attackers, who may be a threat to stall teams considering they can breeze through both Skarmory and Blissey. It also has the important ability to pass huge amounts of HP through Wish. Though Blissey's Wishes are much more powerful, Chansey can still fill this role decently, and provides the team support that is expected of her.

@ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Roar
- Dragon Pulse


Latias serves many purposes for this team, as it takes attacks from both sides of the spectrum, do excellent damage offensively (after a few Calm Minds), phazes and serves as this team's only counter to Calm Mind Reuniclus. It has 8 Speed EVs to outspeed other Bold Latiases, enough physical bulk to wall physical attacks and a tremendous Special Defense stat after just one turn of set up. Calm Mind is there to boost Dragon Pulse's power and to achieve an incredible Special Defense stat. Recover is to bring back its defensive capabilities after several turns of walling. Roar acts as a phazing tool while Dragon Pulse is its offensive move of choice, as it will get a neutral hit on everything bar Steel types (who are usually oriented in physical bulk, thus Dragon Pulse will be able to KO after a couple of Calm Minds). It also receives STAB from Latias's typing which allows it to put huge dents left and right. This set, unfortunately, lacks Substitute or Refresh, meaning that Latias is vulnerable to Toxic and Thunder Wave, both able to end her "sweep", though the latter needs a touch of luck to ruin Latias.

@ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Taunt


Gliscor is this team's Physical Tank. It possesses double Leftovers recovery, immunity to status abnormalities (once Toxic Orb activates), decent Speed, access to Taunt, excellent typing and tremendous physical bulk, so it fills nearly every criteria that is expected of a wall. This combined with its excellent base Attack stat, Swords Dance and nearly unresisted coverage in Earthquake and Ice Fang allows it to counter several pesky threats such as Ferrothorn, Forretress and Conkeldurr. Furthermore, it also serves as a Reuniclus check provided it manages to sneak a Swords Dance under its belt during the switch, and can proceed to kill it provided it runs Psyshock over Psychic and Focus Blast over Shadow Ball.

@ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover


What seems to be the premiere Spinblocker of BW after Rotom-A's loss of their Ghost typing is here to do just that--block Rapid Spins. It helps ease Latias's and Chansey's mix-walling with Will-O-Wisp/Scald, and Taunt provides a decent defense against CM Reuniclus provided it doesn't run Shadow Ball, and Recover is there for obvious reasons. Basically, Jellicent is an excellent Specially Defensive Pokemon that can cripple foes trying to breach its Physical Side.

V. Threat List
Excadrill - It can't touch Skarmory, and Gliscor runs all over it.
Conkeldurr- Again, Skarmory and Gliscor stops it dead in its tracks. Latias 2HKOs with Dragon Pulse, and isn't OHKO'd by Payback, provided it has no Bulk Up boosts.
Hydreigon- Chansey laughs at it, while Jellicent also does decently.
Volcarona- Its best bet against Jellicent is HP Ground, which will deal pathetic damage without at least 2 boosts. Chansey also walls it considerably, although Butterfly Dance + Flame Dance may end up killing it.
Terrakion - Skarmory can handle non-Swords Dance variants, while Gliscor defeats anything it can pull up.
Landorus- Physical Landorus goes to Skarmory or Gliscor, CM goes to Latias or Chansey.
Chandelure- With its loss of Shadow Tag, Chandelure fails to kill Latias and Jellicent, and Chansey utterly destroys it.
Haxorus- Skarmory resists the standard DD set and can Whirlwind it away if it has too much DD under its belt.
Virizion- The CM Version is a large threat, Chansey can poison it and try to WishStall it. Skarmory's Brave Bird 2HKOs, and with Wish support it can potentially destroy Virizion. Latias can CM Stall and Roar it unless a crit comes. Skarmory and Gliscor (especially Skarmory) utterly walls the SD set.
Thundurus- Prankster TWave versions hurts Latias, and Gliscor can't check it due to the presence of HP Ice. My best bet against it is Natural Cure Chansey. With its titanic Special Bulk it takes little to no damage from Thunderbolt and can Toxic it into oblivion. Nasty Plot sets narrows my choices down to solely Chansey, though Deoxys's Psycho Boost will greatly shorten its lifespan.
Scrafty- It does pitiful damage to Skarmory and Gliscor, and gets phazed away, killed, or set up on by said pokemon.
Reuniclus- Latias can CM Roar it into oblivion, especially sets lacking Shadow Ball. If it switches out, I switch out to Gliscor and proceed to set up Swords Dance, which will 2HKO Reuniclus with one boost stored.
Victini- I never see this thing, but due to its vast amount of set possibilities I have to scout it first. Depending on what he carries I may switch out to Jellicent, Latias, or most commonly Chansey.
Mienshao- No special treatments are needed, Gliscor and Skarmory walls it as necessary. The nearly non-existant CM version is handled by Latias, Jellicent, and, to a lesser extent, Chansey.
Darmanitan- Lead Scarfers faces death at the face of Psycho Boost, while late-game Scarf cleaners are handled by Latias and Gliscor.
Keldeo- Sets that lacks HP Electric does pitiful damage to Jellicent, while sets that do have it is walled by Latias.
Genesect- Chansey takes U-Turn considerably well, while laughs at the special attacks.
Tornadus- Sets that lack Hammer Arm is dealt with by Chansey, while sets that doesn't is checked by Latias. It's risky to face however, due to Hurricane's confuse chance.
Latias- Max HP Latias's Subs are broken by Chansey's Seismic Toss, so it poses little problem.
Garchomp- Sets that lack Fire Blast (which they shouldn't be) are walled/phazed by Skarmory, and Gliscor does decently provided Ice Fang doesn't miss.
Salamence- After a Draco Meteor, Mixed Sets are tanked by Gliscor. DD Sets are phazed away by Skarmory.
Cloyster- Skarmory can phaze it away and it will continually suffer Entry Hazard damage, though Icicle Spear after one Shell Smash does quiet a bit of damage.
Politoed- Chansey, Jellicent and Latias all do excellent it taking him down, and Latias can set up a couple of CMs on it, even if it carries Ice Beam.
Venusaur- The sheer number of sets Venusaur is able to carry requires quite a bit of scouting. Latias resists all of its attacks and can phaze it away, though it needs to look out for Sleep Powder.
Ninetales- Hypnosis is ugly stuff, but if it doesn't carry it then Chansey and Latias laughs at it.
Toxicroak- Skarmory does notably well against Toxicroak, since it takes virtually no damage from Sucker Punch and Brave Bird 3HKOs at most.
Breloom- Once Toxic Orb activates it can't touch Gliscor. If it isn't activated I take the sleep with something other than Chansey (usually Jellicent) and go to Gliscor or Skarmory.
Ditto- This is a stall team. Ditto does nothing to it.
Scizor- Neither Bullet Punch nor Bug Bite threatens Skarmory, even at +6. Gliscor can beat it in its set-up phase with correct prediction. Jellicent can handle CB versions considerably well.
Ludicolo- Latias resists its STABs and Chansey walls and toxics it.
Metagross- Skarmory needs to look out for ThunderPunch, but can still wall sets that carry it provided no crits take place. Gliscor risks taking an Ice Punch if it tries to EQ Metagross.
Infernape- Latias beats all versions of it. Physical Ape fears Gliscor and NP Ape can't touch Jellicent.
Heatran- Jellicent deals with it decently, and Scarf sets are set-up bait for Latias.
Dragonite- Stealth Rock breaks Multi-Scale, and from there Skarmory walls the DD set and Gliscor walls everything but the Mixed set. MixNite needs special care. Jellicent comes in, burns it and do all the damage it can before dying, and then Chansey comes in to wall it.
Whimsicott- It can't touch Deoxys with Magic Coat.
Jirachi- It does bs to Skarmory, and Gliscor does a ton of damage with SD and EQ, while being immune to the paralysis (immunity to Thunder Wave being innate, while Toxic Orb negates the Body Slam para chance).
Rotom-W- Latias sets up on the Tank set and Chansey walls all its sets.
Gyarados- Depending on what it carries, Skarmory, Latias and Jellicent can potentially defeat it.
Suicune- Jellicent walls CroCune, while the Special Attacker set falls to the might of Chansey.
Kabutops- Skarmory takes a bit from Waterfall in the rain, but thanks to Sturdy it will always phaze it away provided Waterfall doesn't flinch.
Tyranitar- Sets that lacks Superpower is considerably walled by Chansey, while ones that lack Flamethrower/Fire Blast has a hard time getting to Skarmory. Gliscor also does excellent to variants that lacks Ice Beam.
Gliscor- Skarmory takes everything Gliscor throws at it and phazes it.

VI. Closing Words and Bibliography
If you took the time to read all those stuff I commend you for being awesome So nitpick this team, point out the flaws and I'll respond to you ASAP. Thanks for reading!

The Deoxys-S battle sprite comes from Smogon's Database.
The Threat List icons and the format comes from eRMT.
Everything else comes from Pokemonelite2000's BW Sprite Resource.

VII. Importable Version
Spoiler:
Stagnant (Deoxys-S) @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Psycho Boost
- Magic Coat
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Whisperer (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes

Ply (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

Claire (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Roar
- Dragon Pulse

Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Taunt

Epeprism (Jellicent) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Recover


Alright, that's it for now! Rate, hate, marry, do whatever you want with this team! See you next time!
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Last edited by Conjurer; May 29th, 2011 at 02:02 AM.
  #2    
Old May 29th, 2011, 02:09 AM
Calamity's Avatar
Calamity
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First of all great set out here, never seen anybody go through an entire threat list like that haha, and I honestly can't see many teams breaking through this stall team, at all. Like your threat list shows you have a check for most things so aslong as you prevent said pokemon like Scrafty getting DD's up this is one of the most stable teams I've seen, good job!
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Old May 29th, 2011, 02:38 AM
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Antebellum
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Well, isn't this a cute little stall team.

I'm going to see what I can do, seeing as this is better than any team I have ever built. Leads aren't really as useful as they were last gen, so you could use Deoxys-S's Mixed Offensive set/spread and have it as a "clean-up" Pokemon, after the other 5 have rendered your opponent's team helpless. Not sure what to do about Jirachi, as it's a pain in the ass to every team, I just use Jellicent and spam Scald until I get a burn. About Chandelure, Chansey doesn't beat the Substitute/Sub and Stat Boost variants, which will really end up as a pain in the ass to your team. I know from personal experience, Chansey is complete set up bait for subbing ghosts. You might want to look into a bulky water taunt user for that, aka Gyarados. Anyhow, that's all I have to offer, good luck battling!
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Old May 29th, 2011, 02:48 AM
Conjurer's Avatar
Conjurer
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Gender: Female
Nature: Mild
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinySalamence888 View Post
First of all great set out here, never seen anybody go through an entire threat list like that haha, and I honestly can't see many teams breaking through this stall team, at all. Like your threat list shows you have a check for most things so aslong as you prevent said pokemon like Scrafty getting DD's up this is one of the most stable teams I've seen, good job!
Thank you for the compliments 8D

The threat list is really there to help people rate my team, so I get more productive rates than I would without. In the end it's a win = win situation :D Physical set-uppers are barely ever a problem if I catch them on their set-up phase, but if I'm drunk or something and let Conkeldurr get to +3 or something stupid like that, Skarm can still handle it due to Sturdy + Whirlwind (though more likely than not I can't find an opportunity to pass Wish to it later, so I have to end up saccing it). Again, thanks for the rate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by インフェルノの津波 View Post
I like this team a lot, but I just fell in love with your layout.
Thanks lol. A huge part of the layout comes from Ooka's eRMT thing, so check it out if you want. B]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karpman View Post
Well, isn't this a cute little stall team.

I'm going to see what I can do, seeing as this is better than any team I have ever built. Leads aren't really as useful as they were last gen, so you could use Deoxys-S's Mixed Offensive set/spread and have it as a "clean-up" Pokemon, after the other 5 have rendered your opponent's team helpless. Not sure what to do about Jirachi, as it's a pain in the ass to every team, I just use Jellicent and spam Scald until I get a burn. About Chandelure, Chansey doesn't beat the Substitute/Sub and Stat Boost variants, which will really end up as a pain in the ass to your team. I know from personal experience, Chansey is complete set up bait for subbing ghosts. You might want to look into a bulky water taunt user for that, aka Gyarados. Anyhow, that's all I have to offer, good luck battling!
Yeah, I think I could use a more productive lead than Deoxys-S (kinda contradicts with the OP since I strongly insisted that it's not getting out XD). Something that gets SR and handle SubGhosts at the same time, huh...I'll tinker with this idea, when I've got something I'll come back to you and let you know

Thanks for the rates everyone! :D
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Old May 29th, 2011, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conjurer View Post
Yeah, I think I could use a more productive lead than Deoxys-S (kinda contradicts with the OP since I strongly insisted that it's not getting out XD). Something that gets SR and handle SubGhosts at the same time, huh...I'll tinker with this idea, when I've got something I'll come back to you and let you know ;)
I tried specially defensive Forretress and it works great against Sub Gengar. (Prolly not against Chandelure.) Not only can it provide Stealth Rock but also Rapid Spin. (But I don't see your team having much trouble against entry hazards.)
For that, you could use Ferrothorn instead if you don't need T-Spikes and Rapid Spin, just because it has a much better Sp.Def. Both can deal with Gengar without a problem with Gyro Ball. (Just watch out for disable and Focus Blast.)
  #6    
Old May 29th, 2011, 06:15 AM
Conjurer's Avatar
Conjurer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinosaurus View Post
I tried specially defensive Forretress and it works great against Sub Gengar. (Prolly not against Chandelure.) Not only can it provide Stealth Rock but also Rapid Spin. (But I don't see your team having much trouble against entry hazards.)
For that, you could use Ferrothorn instead if you don't need T-Spikes and Rapid Spin, just because it has a much better Sp.Def. Both can deal with Gengar without a problem with Gyro Ball. (Just watch out for disable and Focus Blast.)
I was messing around with a few stuff earlier, but this seems the most solid choice. I'm going to be testing things for a while, but more likely than not Forretress is going in (Rapid Spin is never bad, and hazards always matters, even to a stall team. It's true. Ask Karp :3). Thanks for the rate!
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  #7    
Old May 29th, 2011, 07:07 AM
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I agree that bulky Gyarados can help a lot, it blocks out Fighting/Fire/Bug/Water/Ground/Dark moves fired at your team, Jellicent maybe able to block All of them [Except Dark and possibly Ground] but Gyarados can strike right back with it's amazing power, IMO, Gyarados > Jellicent in this circumstance, [Jellicent and Gyarados are kinda the same for me, I use them depending on the situation]

I'd try a different lead... Deoxys [S] is in suspect testing? So it's kinda banned ATM. XD; Ferrothorn would be good, although it leaves you open to more fire weaknesses, Jellicent has to go down at some time, Ferrothorn can also block Ice attacks aimed at Latias and Gliscor. But then you're also open to fighting attacks; once again, Jellicent can't live forever, [Although this problem is minor since Gliscor and Latias deal with it]

I'm gonna be totally bold and probably dumb here, but I'm gonna suggest Slowbro over Gliscor, it's got amazing Hp, Defense and Special attack stats, it can take hit's like a boss and can fight back. This eliminates an Ice weaknesses and gives you more resistance to it. Fighting attacks are backed up, and it has a reliable recovery move in Slack-Off. It can Burn with Scald and through status effects around like there's no tomorrow, sure you gain another Bug weakness, but just shrug it of, since Scizor and Heracross are your only bug attackers in this stage, besides with your stellar defenses you're not gonna be taking much damage. If you do use Ferrothorn, it makes it so Chansey, Ferrothorn & Latias can absorb Electric moves directed at Jellicent/Gyarados, Skarmory and Slowbro.

I'm not gonna suggest replacements for Chansey and Skarmory, because frankly, the combo between them both is amazing, if you do choose to use Ferrothorn you also get the Jellicent/Ferrothorn defensive core, giving you extra defense. @_@ Latias and Slowbro can just attack. <: Although Gyarados works well with Ferrothorn to, absorbing Fire/Fighting attacks and Ferro takes Rock/Electric attacks.

So if you plan to use Ferrothorn, here's the set;


Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SpD
Ivs: 0 Speed
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Spikes
- Leech Seed / Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball / Thunderwave / Protect

Amazingly bulky and annoying, gives you your Stealth Rock support and Leech Seed, since you have Skarmory with spikes, I suggest using Leech Seed in place of spikes.

Your Gyarados set;


Gyarados@Leftovers
Trait : Intimidate
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
Evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall
- Roar / Dragon Tail

Super bulky and annoying, RestTalk Gyarados has annoyed me so many times! >: Dragon tail is a better option over roar IMO.


Slowbro@Leftovers
Trait : Regenerator
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
Ev's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
- Scald
- Psychic / Ice Beam / Thunder Wave
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Ice Beam
- Slack Off

<3 Amazing Slowbro, I've used this and it's quite good, slot's in well with stall teams, and it can turn offensive to. However it does have a huge weakness in Toxic, cover it with Ferrothorn or Chansey [Natural cure]

Overall, this team is amazing, when I faced it, it annoyed me so much! >:O It did exactly what was intended, stall and attack. <: I hope you can take this into consideration. <3
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  #8    
Old May 29th, 2011, 07:35 AM
Conjurer's Avatar
Conjurer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post
I agree that bulky Gyarados can help a lot, it blocks out Fighting/Fire/Bug/Water/Ground/Dark moves fired at your team, Jellicent maybe able to block All of them [Except Dark and possibly Ground] but Gyarados can strike right back with it's amazing power, IMO, Gyarados > Jellicent in this circumstance, [Jellicent and Gyarados are kinda the same for me, I use them depending on the situation]

I'd try a different lead... Deoxys [S] is in suspect testing? So it's kinda banned ATM. XD; Ferrothorn would be good, although it leaves you open to more fire weaknesses, Jellicent has to go down at some time, Ferrothorn can also block Ice attacks aimed at Latias and Gliscor. But then you're also open to fighting attacks; once again, Jellicent can't live forever, [Although this problem is minor since Gliscor and Latias deal with it]

I'm gonna be totally bold and probably dumb here, but I'm gonna suggest Slowbro over Gliscor, it's got amazing Hp, Defense and Special attack stats, it can take hit's like a boss and can fight back. This eliminates an Ice weaknesses and gives you more resistance to it. Fighting attacks are backed up, and it has a reliable recovery move in Slack-Off. It can Burn with Scald and through status effects around like there's no tomorrow, sure you gain another Bug weakness, but just shrug it of, since Scizor and Heracross are your only bug attackers in this stage, besides with your stellar defenses you're not gonna be taking much damage. If you do use Ferrothorn, it makes it so Chansey, Ferrothorn & Latias can absorb Electric moves directed at Jellicent/Gyarados, Skarmory and Slowbro.

I'm not gonna suggest replacements for Chansey and Skarmory, because frankly, the combo between them both is amazing, if you do choose to use Ferrothorn you also get the Jellicent/Ferrothorn defensive core, giving you extra defense. @_@ Latias and Slowbro can just attack. <: Although Gyarados works well with Ferrothorn to, absorbing Fire/Fighting attacks and Ferro takes Rock/Electric attacks.

So if you plan to use Ferrothorn, here's the set;


Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SpD
Ivs: 0 Speed
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Spikes
- Leech Seed / Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball / Thunderwave / Protect

Amazingly bulky and annoying, gives you your Stealth Rock support and Leech Seed, since you have Skarmory with spikes, I suggest using Leech Seed in place of spikes.

Your Gyarados set;


Gyarados@Leftovers
Trait : Intimidate
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
Evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall
- Roar / Dragon Tail

Super bulky and annoying, RestTalk Gyarados has annoyed me so many times! >: Dragon tail is a better option over roar IMO.


Slowbro@Leftovers
Trait : Regenerator
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
Ev's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
- Scald
- Psychic / Ice Beam / Thunder Wave
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Ice Beam
- Slack Off

<3 Amazing Slowbro, I've used this and it's quite good, slot's in well with stall teams, and it can turn offensive to. However it does have a huge weakness in Toxic, cover it with Ferrothorn or Chansey [Natural cure]

Overall, this team is amazing, when I faced it, it annoyed me so much! >:O It did exactly what was intended, stall and attack. <: I hope you can take this into consideration. <3
I did a bit of testing on beta and decided that this is what's gonna stay and what's gonna leave.

Deoxys-S -> Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn gives a lot more output than Deoxys-S ever did, that is if I manage to get the opportunity to set up. Also I'm going to use SR instead of Spikes, because Skarmory already has Spikes :> And yeah, Deoxys-S puts me in Ubers so XD

Jellicent -> Jellicent
Yup, I seriously think it should stay, solely for spinblocking purposes. Although I do realize how annoying and powerful RestTalk DT Gyarados is, spinblocking is an absolute must on any (of my) stall team(s). I may consider replacing something else with it though; perhaps Gliscor.

Gliscor -> Gliscor / (potentially) Gyarados
Yeah, with Deoxys-S down the drain he's literally my only Taunt user and the best Ferrothorn counter I've seen in my life <3 Slowbro seems arousing, but I'm going to turn it down due to Taunt's presence on Scor's set and Scor being my only (reliable) physical attacker. Gyarados seems really interesting, and I may test it later in the future. Thanks for the rate! OP will be updated soon.

Also, I'm considering replacing something on Chansey's set with Heal Bell, any thoughts? (Yes, Heal Bell is legal with Wish x])
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  #9    
Old May 29th, 2011, 08:54 AM
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.Aero
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I'm not too sure Chansey can afford losing one of its moves for Heal Bell. >.< Without S-toss, you're walled by everything, without Toxic, you're walled by Jellicent, and obviously you can't ditch Wish / Protect as that's its purpose. If anything, I'd replace Toxic. :P But that kind of ruins some of Chansey's stall quality.

Keep Gliscor >> Gyarados. Losing an electric immunity could hurt you more than it appears. I would think of examples, but I just woke up. :P I just don't think you should replace Gliscor with Gyara as Scor is an excellent wall who appears to have great synergy with the rest of you team and his Poison Heal helps his durability and protects your team from status in most cases.

Your team seems aptly equipped to handle CM versions of Reuniclus, but do you really have an answer to TR versions (which, I believe, are becoming more popular than CM)? You could certainly send in Latias to wall it with CM. But TR's run Shadow Ball and will probably set up TR on the switch, giving them the upperhand. This is why this little guy should be banned, I dunno how you can beat both versions. D: Hopefully somebody else can come and suggest what to add to help with a TR Reuniclus weakness (although, I've never seen you battle and maybe you've encountered one and had no problems. :P I'm just unsure as to how you beat it because your threat list didn't mention it).
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Old May 29th, 2011, 09:47 AM
OneofFour
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I don't know how much it gets used, but a Rapid Spinning Excadrill, could give you some trouble, considering the mole gets Shadow Claw access as well.

Also, I think you kind of write Salamence's mixed sets off too quickly, presuming that the opponent will always use Draco Meteor at some point before it has done major damage, though maybe Gliscor's Ice Fang scares it away anyhow. I think the best way to deal with it, if you feel it most be dealt with, is to drop Deoxy-S or Ferrothorn, whichever you are using, for maybe something like Mamoswine (with Thick Fat, is that released yet? Yum...), since it can still do your rocks, and will infuriate dragon-centric-sweeping teams, and also can carry Superpower, which makes sure that Excadrill I just mentioned will be hesitant to roll in (though perhaps EQ gives that advantage anyhow).

TR Reuniclus can be handled by Chansey, I believe, if the opponent is not carrying psyshock as well as shadow ball and presumably focus blast. Reuniclus has to pick its moves very carefully, dropping the recovery I find is never very easy.

Also, while I like Jellicent, I notice you aren't using the far more powerful female sprite. Perhaps that switch is what it would take to push the team to the top?
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Old May 29th, 2011, 01:17 PM
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FINALLY GOOD FORMATTING ./caps

Ferrothorn's best movepool choice would be using Spikes or Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, protect, and Power Whip imo.

Conkledurr is a big threat for your team, especially if Gliscor has fainted already. For this reason, I recommend using taunt on Skarmory as well, over spikes preferably. Burungeru wants 44 speed EVs or something like that to taunt Skarmory first.

Sub LO Gengar causes this team some trouble, so I'd recommend using specially defensive Jirachi over Chansey. It also means that your team doesn't instant lose to Specslatios, who can trick Chansey, and HP Fire/Draco Meteor the rest of the team.

When I play stall, I prefer having a spinner or Magic Bouncer, but thats preference. If you want one, use it over Latias.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 03:11 PM
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If he replaces Spikes on Skarm with Taunt, he loses an extremely important stall component. Skarm can just phaze it out anyway with WW, as it's not going to be hurt too badly by Payback version, and he can Roost to resist SEs if he wants and then WW it out to get rid of any Bulk Ups he may have gotten in.

Jirachi could be useful though. He's a great Wish passer as well and essentially provides the same role, but is obviously a little different. As Cycle said, Latios could hurt your team a bit, as it can sometimes trick your pokemon, and it runs HP Fire usually to handle Ferro. Jirachi can take Specs HP Fire pretty decently I believe, and can cripple with a Body Slam + Iron Head hax fest combo.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .Aero View Post
I'm not too sure Chansey can afford losing one of its moves for Heal Bell. >.< Without S-toss, you're walled by everything, without Toxic, you're walled by Jellicent, and obviously you can't ditch Wish / Protect as that's its purpose. If anything, I'd replace Toxic. :P But that kind of ruins some of Chansey's stall quality.

Keep Gliscor >> Gyarados. Losing an electric immunity could hurt you more than it appears. I would think of examples, but I just woke up. :P I just don't think you should replace Gliscor with Gyara as Scor is an excellent wall who appears to have great synergy with the rest of you team and his Poison Heal helps his durability and protects your team from status in most cases.

Your team seems aptly equipped to handle CM versions of Reuniclus, but do you really have an answer to TR versions (which, I believe, are becoming more popular than CM)? You could certainly send in Latias to wall it with CM. But TR's run Shadow Ball and will probably set up TR on the switch, giving them the upperhand. This is why this little guy should be banned, I dunno how you can beat both versions. D: Hopefully somebody else can come and suggest what to add to help with a TR Reuniclus weakness (although, I've never seen you battle and maybe you've encountered one and had no problems. :P I'm just unsure as to how you beat it because your threat list didn't mention it).
For TR Reuniclus, I do use Latias lol. I CM first turn, Recover, CM again, and see what goes on from there. Outside of an untimely critical hit (oh god please no) it has no chance of getting through Latias. If you're interested, it does 40.7% - 48.4% with Shadow Ball to Latias without CM, so even if it hits max twice, it won't KO Latias after the CM. If it carries Psychic over Psyshock (like the guy below says), Chansey says hello. Anyhow, thanks for the rate hun <3

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneofFour View Post
I don't know how much it gets used, but a Rapid Spinning Excadrill, could give you some trouble, considering the mole gets Shadow Claw access as well.

Also, I think you kind of write Salamence's mixed sets off too quickly, presuming that the opponent will always use Draco Meteor at some point before it has done major damage, though maybe Gliscor's Ice Fang scares it away anyhow. I think the best way to deal with it, if you feel it most be dealt with, is to drop Deoxy-S or Ferrothorn, whichever you are using, for maybe something like Mamoswine (with Thick Fat, is that released yet? Yum...), since it can still do your rocks, and will infuriate dragon-centric-sweeping teams, and also can carry Superpower, which makes sure that Excadrill I just mentioned will be hesitant to roll in (though perhaps EQ gives that advantage anyhow).

TR Reuniclus can be handled by Chansey, I believe, if the opponent is not carrying psyshock as well as shadow ball and presumably focus blast. Reuniclus has to pick its moves very carefully, dropping the recovery I find is never very easy.

Also, while I like Jellicent, I notice you aren't using the far more powerful female sprite. Perhaps that switch is what it would take to push the team to the top?
On Mamoswine, I think that's a pretty sweet deal. I'll do some testing and come back to you later. ;)

I go to Latias for all forms of Reuniclus, but if it does carry Psychic over Psyshock then Chansey is indeed its most solid counter.

On the Jellicent note, I don't really get it? IIRC they get the same stats, abilities, everything but the sprites? ._. Well dismiss that for now. Thanks! :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cycle View Post
FINALLY GOOD FORMATTING ./caps

Ferrothorn's best movepool choice would be using Spikes or Stealth Rock, Leech Seed, protect, and Power Whip imo.

Conkledurr is a big threat for your team, especially if Gliscor has fainted already. For this reason, I recommend using taunt on Skarmory as well, over spikes preferably. Burungeru wants 44 speed EVs or something like that to taunt Skarmory first.

Sub LO Gengar causes this team some trouble, so I'd recommend using specially defensive Jirachi over Chansey. It also means that your team doesn't instant lose to Specslatios, who can trick Chansey, and HP Fire/Draco Meteor the rest of the team.

When I play stall, I prefer having a spinner or Magic Bouncer, but thats preference. If you want one, use it over Latias.
Look below ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Aero View Post
If he replaces Spikes on Skarm with Taunt, he loses an extremely important stall component. Skarm can just phaze it out anyway with WW, as it's not going to be hurt too badly by Payback version, and he can Roost to resist SEs if he wants and then WW it out to get rid of any Bulk Ups he may have gotten in.

Jirachi could be useful though. He's a great Wish passer as well and essentially provides the same role, but is obviously a little different. As Cycle said, Latios could hurt your team a bit, as it can sometimes trick your pokemon, and it runs HP Fire usually to handle Ferro. Jirachi can take Specs HP Fire pretty decently I believe, and can cripple with a Body Slam + Iron Head hax fest combo.
Yeah, losing Spikes would be awful for me, since it's a necessity for stall teams. I agree with pretty much what Aero said on Skarm. I go in on the Bulk Up (or better yet, a Mach Punch) and phaze it. It'll just continue suffering hazard damage and ultimately die.

On Jirachi > Chansey, I'm really hesitant. Jirachi is an excellent special defender though, but it can't even begin to compare to Chansey. While I do face a large threat in Latios (which will potentially be solved if I change my lead to Mamoswine) I face a lot more if I lose Chansey. I need to play some mind games when facing Latios, I usually go to Jellicent to take the trick then proceed to wall it with Chansey. Of course, this has its backdraws, but for now it'll have to do. Thanks for the suggestions though.
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Last edited by Conjurer; May 30th, 2011 at 04:09 AM.
  #14    
Old May 30th, 2011, 06:51 AM
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I wasn't thinking when I suggested the taunt suggestion, sorry about that.

However, I DO think Jirachi is a better choice over Chansey because it means you don't lose to threats like Gengar, Latios, Starmie, anything with trick etc

Chansey also loses to Reuniclus which is the most common special threat bar Latios.

The only actual threats you lose to are Heatran and Volcarona, but you handle them with ease through Jellicent.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cycle View Post
I wasn't thinking when I suggested the taunt suggestion, sorry about that.

However, I DO think Jirachi is a better choice over Chansey because it means you don't lose to threats like Gengar, Latios, Starmie, anything with trick etc

Chansey also loses to Reuniclus which is the most common special threat bar Latios.

The only actual threats you lose to are Heatran and Volcarona, but you handle them with ease through Jellicent.
Chansey's advantage over Jirachi is that it can stop quite literally every special set-upper you can think of, as long as you switch in directly after. Jirachi isn't going to enjoy switching into a Thundurus's +2 TBolt and getting outsped and killed on the next turn, etc. etc. It also has to find an opportunity to Wish itself back to full health, and if the opponent doesn't provide you that opportunity you're dead. In Chansey's case, however, it can come in on nearly any special attacker, set up the Wish without worries that it'll be killed even with only a fraction of its HP intact, and it's ready to do everything all over again.

Let's try to be logical here. Chansey has the equivalent of 250 HP and 210 Special Defense, and that's more than Jirachi's stats even if you doubled it. Yes, it does have its cons but that kind of stats is just too good for me to pass up. Basically, I think Chansey is much more reliable than Jirachi and that's reason enough for me to keep it (slightly trivial, but still...). Thanks for everything though, I really appreciate it.
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  #16    
Old May 30th, 2011, 08:20 AM
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Look, I'm no good with stall whatsoever, but I do know something, and that's you're lacking something which can really take on a Trick for a choice item. I'm not too sure on how common the Trick thing is in the current metagame, but if it becomes a problem for you, then you might want to do something about it. I suppose Gliscor can somewhat handle the job well enough, since it is a physical threat, as well as bulky, but it might be something to keep at mind to invest in if you ever do struggle with them.

My two cents.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conjurer View Post
Chansey's advantage over Jirachi is that it can stop quite literally every special set-upper you can think of, as long as you switch in directly after.
Not NP Lucario. :)

...but then again Jirachi has struggles with that, too. The biggest difference is that Jirachi beats CM Reuniclus, where Chansey has no chance in hell to be able to. But Reuniclus is already covered mostly through Latias... just beware of a last-Pokemon Reuniclus, as you won't be able to Roar away its boosts. Some CM Reunicli (does that work lolol) also run Psyshock just to beat other CMers, too, which is another thing to be aware of.

NP Lucario isn't -too- much of a threat, though your only responses to it are in Latias (who can only Roar it out; it'll be back) and Gliscor who can take a Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball and KO with EQ. If Gliscor's down and you don't have Spikes up to wear it out, you'll have a very difficult time beating down NP Luke imo. Just a thought, anyway. It's not too common.
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  #18    
Old May 30th, 2011, 08:10 PM
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I guess what I was trying to say is that Jirachi is too situational while Chansey is a global special wall. But that may just be me >.>

CM Reunicli (I think it does work lol) that lacks Psyshock also has no chance in hell to beat Chansey, especially with Focus Blast's troll accuracy and PP count, so it may end up being a PP war >.> Sets that do, as you've mentioned, are handled by Latias. It's relieving to know SOMETHING on my team could counter NP Lucario, lol (Gliscor, you're definitely not getting out now ;o). It's probably one of the threats that stands out against this team.

Also, I currently run BandMamo over Deoxys-S/Ferrothorn, who sets up SR and switches out. When it gets in again (facing something like Latios), people are gonna be like "oh, that Mamo used SR, there's no way it's a band set" and take an Ice Shard to the face. Lovely, no?
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  #19    
Old May 30th, 2011, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conjurer View Post
CM Reunicli (I think it does work lol) that lacks Psyshock also has no chance in hell to beat Chansey, especially with Focus Blast's troll accuracy and PP count, so it may end up being a PP war >.> Sets that do, as you've mentioned, are handled by Latias.
Oof, it actually does. Toxic doesn't do anything to Reuniclus (Magic Guard), and then spamming Seismic Toss will get you nowhere as it has a solid HP stat - it can CM, then Recover, then CM, then Recover etc. Chansey literally can't touch Reuniclus. Also, all good CM Reunicli run HP Fighting, not Focus Blast, because the boosts through CM make up for the power of Focus Blast anyway. But Latias handles those sets by CMing along with (and resisting Psychic + HP Fighting) and then being able to Roar it out... so long as Reuniclus isn't the last Pokemon, that is. If you've got a way to smack it hard (like that CB Mamoswine you mentioned) that would be best to keep it available until Reuniclus is gone, because otherwise I think you'll have a lot of difficulty stopping a last-Pokemon Reuniclus sweep. :c
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  #20    
Old May 31st, 2011, 11:53 AM
OneofFour
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Unless you use Toxic on Chansey often, you could switch it to T-Wave. It's one of the few statuses that can throw Reuniclus off its game, though it is based on luck.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 03:38 AM
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Argh, Reuniclus, why do you have to troll stall so bad >.>

But to be honest it doesn't harm this team so badly, CB Mamo's EQ looks like it can 2HKOs, while there is no way ever Hidden Power Fighting can OHKO my CB set (which takes 32 EVs away from Speed to be channeled to SDef specifically for this reason). And as mentioned countless times beforehand, Latias is a solid check to all forms of Reuniclus. Yay Latias!
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