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  #1    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:07 PM
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COMPETITIVE BATTLING CHAT
A lot of people have asked for some kind of casual chat since the (second) DCC met its end several months ago, so we are putting one up! We do want to stress that this is not going to be like either of the old DCCs, so we'll define the general aim of this thread.

This thread is for laid back chat and discussion about any aspect of competitive battling, free from serious, heated debates as well as the kind of spam, intimidation, and trolling that accompanied the old DCCs.

It's as simple as that. There are only a few ground rules for this thread:

— Follow all Competitive Battling Center Rules.

— Do not stray from the realm of competitive battling in this thread.
This is mostly just to prevent it from becoming a third edition of the DCC.

— Try to avoid getting into huge debates.
You can disagree and contest points, but this is supposed to be a casual chat. When you start breaking each post down into several points and then countering each one, it has probably gotten a little too serious.

— Be respectful.
Again, let's not make this DCC 3.0, okay? This is really obvious and we trust that everyone will be civil!

If things get too off-topic or serious, a mod will post a friendly reminder. This is mostly just to give everyone a place to enjoy a more relaxed atmosphere, especially since competitive battling can get a little intense sometimes!

Enjoy!

Last edited by wolf; December 31st, 2011 at 03:12 PM.
  #2    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:12 PM
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Let's hit the ground rolling with a question I just came up with!

How do you deal with SmashPass teams?
With the addition of Baton Pass to Mirror Bounce Espeon, SmashPass teams have risen in usage and can easily thrash most unprepared opponents. Phazing options are extremely limited when Espeon is still around as it can simply Magic Bounce your Whirlwind/Roar right back at you and baton pass right back to Gorebyss.

I don't ladder often, but I figure my best bet at this moment is with Amoonguss and Clear Smog. It can't be taunted, or reflected, and since he's grass, he can take a hit or so from Gorebyss if it decides to stay in and Surf/Scald. If the opponent switches to Espeon, it's too late because Clear Smog would be my first move. :D
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  #3    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:21 PM
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It seems to me that the new round of voting from Smogon has provoked some opposition from regulars on our forum, perhaps most vocally on Garchomp, now formally banned from OU / Standard, and there are disgruntled members who question making Thundurus a Suspect. On the other side of the spectrum, some have regarded the firm decision to keep Latios and Deoxys in OU disagreeable while Garchomp is being banned. The only result that came without controversy, without disagreement, without large public outcry, was the decision to keep Excadrill OU. I myself do not particularly oppose any such results (although I am somewhat annoyed by a few from this round, but it's mostly apathy), but it is clear from my observations that others do not share such a view. What do the fellow ladies (although they are a clear minority, and do not share the same compassion for competitive battling here) and gentlemen think of this round of voting, if it is not too late to discuss it? I'll be abstaining from this discussion, which I consider appropriate since I do not have a strong vested interest in opposing bans or decisions in the other direction, and only wish to gauge the general opinion of others.

On an unrelated note, our attempts to enforce policy that will theoretically (or try to) promote activity and refresh our member base with a new generation of PC members are starting to roll off the production line. Tutoring will start soon if all goes well, and there is certainly enthusiasm and compassionate veterans of S&M / CBC to try and make sure it is a civil and energetic endeavor. I do think it will generate some form and degree of success, but it is audacious to think it will directly generate a recovery of this forum and renew the ranks; I think it is fair and somewhat optimistic to say it will help along the grander scheme, and provide a model for other ideas if it goes through successfully. Hopefully, our tutors will be polite and pass on a calm mindset, and give newer players less familiar to the competitive environment a set of basic rules and simple rationale; while I do not think practically doing everything for students is prudent it might be best to give them heavy advice, depending on the situation and relative experience of the student. We shall see. In any case, I'd like to see how others think this shall go along. Any commentary on current policies aimed at reviving this forum, or thoughts on how to continue this attempt at recovery (future actions etc.)?
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  #4    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:39 PM
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My view of SmashPass teams is simply that the use of them is so formulaic and robotic that it's not even worth winning with them because you aren't even responsible for the win really. I mean, competitive Pokemon is about winning so it's perfect within the limits of the game, but I just don't really prepare for them since I'm a very casual battler as it is and I honestly can't think of much that can stop them anyways. Though I won't say I've tried too hard.

As for the suspects, I haven't played against Deoxys-S enough to have an opinion. Excadrill is very very good but not Uber. I am conflicted on Thundurus because I've never really found a good way to stop it but at the same time it also never gets more than one or two kills in my experience. I don't really know on him. Believe it or not, I've seen like, one Latios ever, so I won't comment.

I tend to lean toward agreeing with the Garchomp ban just because one single Sand Veil miss can really be the difference between a win and a loss because Garchomp is already so gifted...but besides playing against Wolf's Sub Chomp, I don't think I've ever missed vs. one. I guess I'm just really lucky lol.

Hopefully activity picks up! The spirit of the old DCC was right but its execution was horribly flawed, so hopefully this becomes a fun thread for everyone
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~wolf: defeated every lead except elf :>
d_a-bread house: what about metagross
~wolf: ok that too
  #5    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:46 PM
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I feel like with Garchomp they can potentially just ban it with Sand Veil and let it have Rough Skin and still be OU. I mean with the main reason behind the ban gone, why not allow it back in?

SmashPass is just ugh to me. I feel like it's almost you're admitting you care about nothing but winning, because I personally find it a cheap tactic. There are so few counters and checks to it that it's boring to even use in my opinion. I don't know, maybe that's just me =3
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  #6    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake♫ View Post
I feel like with Garchomp they can potentially just ban it with Sand Veil and let it have Rough Skin and still be OU. I mean with the main reason behind the ban gone, why not allow it back in?
I think it's 'cause Blaze Blaziken wasn't kept in OU so I guess it's for consistency or something...and I guess they want to avoid complex bans maybe? IDK, I don't check out Policy Review anymore ...but I think that's why.
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Gone with the wind. (But still hanging around because why not?)

~wolf: defeated every lead except elf :>
d_a-bread house: what about metagross
~wolf: ok that too
  #7    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:01 PM
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Well, it could be what Anti said, or it could be because Rough Skin is an unreleased Dream World ability. They can't just make an exception to and allow this DW ability just because we want to keep Chomp. Once it's released, I'm sure it will either go through retesting, or will just be allowed in OU straight away.

Also, I don't think they're really that against complex bans. See: Drizzle + Swift Swim.
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  #8    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:03 PM
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If it's unreleased then that would make sense. But then again even if that wasn't the case why wouldn't they allow Blaziken back in without Speed Boost. I guess it might just be the whole "we set up a precedent, we can't go against now" thing.
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  #9    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:05 PM
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Didn't Smogon ban Drizzle altogether, or am I missing something. :/ Maybe they're just hating on Gorebyss.
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  #10    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:16 PM
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No, rain teams are still extremely common. They just hindered them by disallowing the use of Swift Swim and Drizzle on the same team. It kind of made Kingdra unstoppable, and other things were too powerful too, like Gorebyss and it's deadly Shell Smash set that's outsped by next to nothing.
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  #11    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalapizzame
On an unrelated note, our attempts to enforce policy that will theoretically (or try to) promote activity and refresh our member base with a new generation of PC members are starting to roll off the production line. Tutoring will start soon if all goes well, and there is certainly enthusiasm and compassionate veterans of S&M / CBC to try and make sure it is a civil and energetic endeavor. I do think it will generate some form and degree of success, but it is audacious to think it will directly generate a recovery of this forum and renew the ranks; I think it is fair and somewhat optimistic to say it will help along the grander scheme, and provide a model for other ideas if it goes through successfully. Hopefully, our tutors will be polite and pass on a calm mindset, and give newer players less familiar to the competitive environment a set of basic rules and simple rationale; while I do not think practically doing everything for students is prudent it might be best to give them heavy advice, depending on the situation and relative experience of the student. We shall see. In any case, I'd like to see how others think this shall go along. Any commentary on current policies aimed at reviving this forum, or thoughts on how to continue this attempt at recovery (future actions etc.)?
Well, I have something to share with you and the entire DCC that I've told Vrai the other day in an MSN conversation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Part of Me and Vrai's MSN conversation
(3:51 AM) PrincessWinte: Listen
(3:51 AM) PrincessWinte: The part where people are successful
(3:51 AM) PrincessWinte: is really not the fact where they don't reach the goals
(3:52 AM) PrincessWinte: is the fact where they pave the road so they actually know HOW to achieve their goals.
And

Quote:
(3:52 AM) PrincessWinte: and the forum merge was exactly what CBC currently needed. It's activity is increased by a lot, but even if it didnt meet standards
(3:52 AM) PrincessWinte: its a hell of a lot better than how S&M was before, right?
Not only that!

Quote:
(3:53 AM) PrincessWinte: We need to set the bar higher, but little by little as we acheive our goals one by one
(3:53 AM) PrincessWinte: then we get where we want to go
(3:53 AM) PrincessWinte: Even if this fails, everyone needs to know that no one really needs to feel down, because everyone knows EXACTLY what to do already
(3:53 AM) PrincessWinte: the road has already been paved
(3:53 AM) PrincessWinte: its just a matter of traveling it and overcoming obstacles along the way
  #12    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
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I would say that Drizzle isn't banned yet, but I have a feeling that eventually there is going to be enough support that it gets booted, whether or not it's "right." I think weather wars give Gen 5 a cool thing that makes it distinctive personally, plus it's a more diverse metagame in many respects than Gen 4 was once Dragon centralization really took over.
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~wolf: defeated every lead except elf :>
d_a-bread house: what about metagross
~wolf: ok that too
  #13    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:24 PM
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The best way to take down SmashPass to to make it so that the first pass fails. Then it's just an easy -1 defense for something like CB Scizor to pick off with Quick Attack or Bullet Punch. On my curent team I lead with Heatran whenever I see Espeon and spam Lava Plume. It's weak enough to to not kill Espeon, thus stalling out screens and dangerous enough to deter most things from switching in with that 30% burn rate. For some reason nobody expects Roar on Heatran anymore (and me staying in...) and Gorebyss just Shell Smashes only to be phazed away :/.

If all else fails, just spam strong attacks? Something like Scarf Terrakion can outspeed most Pokemon even after +2 and can KO Espeon before it puts up screens.

Also, bringing Garchomp back with Rough Skin is like bringing back non-Speed Boost Blaziken. It's Smogon policy to not to apply complex bans if possible which is why so many people are itching to repel Aldaron's proposal. Besides, banning Sand Veil would make Cacturne (even more) useless D:

Edit: Just how many more replies did people post while I was typing? 0_o I'm slow...
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Last edited by flamehaze94; June 23rd, 2011 at 10:39 PM.
  #14    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:24 PM
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Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?
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  #15    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alternative View Post
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?
Depends on if they Sub first...and I think they do? My lord, I need to play more.

Oh flamehaze don't hate on Cacturne 'cause he's really cool ;_;

@what Derk said:

Indeed, hopefully we can continue to attempt to destroy the demons of the past. Wolf, Aura, and myself are open to any ideas for boosting activity and such, maybe bring back ComNight or something?

We really should get T&E going though! It's dead atm and I think all of our regulars could prop it up in a heartbeat.
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Gone with the wind. (But still hanging around because why not?)

~wolf: defeated every lead except elf :>
d_a-bread house: what about metagross
~wolf: ok that too
  #16    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:29 PM
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Yes, I guess. But Sleep Clause is standard, and who's to say you can't run more than one swift swimmer? Also, not everyone likes running Whimsicott (such as me) as some see it as dead weight on certain teams.
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  #17    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alternative View Post
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?
Sleep powder isn't always reliable. If you're discussing the issue of SmashPass, if something like Haxorus(painfully) comes out, and your sleep powder somehow misses, it's GG. .____.;

In this metagame, a "hit or a miss" really does count from what I experience. Most people tend to take risks, as I found out, and run things like focus blast and stone edge still, but whether a specific move hits or misses really can determine the outcome of an entire match(or affect it heavily).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti
maybe bring back ComNight or something?
Well, like I mentioned before on PO, in order for ComNight to really succeed in the end, a large amount of our regulars and even those that are new to CBC/S&M would all have to come on during simultaneous times. This wouldn't so much be an issue if ComNight was adjusted here and there to somehow accommodate the vast timezones and what have you, but that has always been it's weak point.

I imagine holding a ComNight at least once every month or so, if anything. Host it too often, people would lost interest. Host it less often, and you won't get as much activity. Balance is indeed important here. I would imagine at least once a month at a random day or so at the mod's discretion?
  #18    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:31 PM
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When you first said flamehaze I was thinking that it would be a dumb strategy to spam Will-O-Wisp and Haze or something. :P Then I realised that it's a user. I needa learn to read some more.

I like Cacturne. It's the first Pokemon I ever RNG abused. <3
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 11:03 PM
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I suppose Cacturne could be good.. in NU or something lol

After a couple test matches, I can safely say that SubToxic Gliscor is the most annoying thing ever and this is coming from the user. It sits at a sexy speed stat and can EVed to outpeed neutral base 100s or be bulky as hell with the standard spread. It can scare off something like Heatran or Scizor, Toxic and rotate between Protect and Substitute. This set is potentially scarier with Toxic Spikes, were you can just stall without wasting a turn with Toxic. Teams without something like Skarmory or Reuniclus (Cloyster too I guess) will be hardpressed to do anything about it, because it can easily come in AGAIN and restart the cycle.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 11:17 PM
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While Gliscor walls my revenge killer, Terrakion, I don't have much trouble with it, since Rotom-W and Hippowdon [with Ice Fang and Roar] can handle it really well. Gliscor is a great Pokemon, though, I may consider using it on my upcoming Communist Stall Team.
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  #21    
Old June 23rd, 2011, 11:29 PM
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The standard Bulky SD set is fairly easy to deal with sure, but I'm talking about the SubProtect ones. The problem with Rotom and Hippo is that both are susceptible to Toxic on the switch, which severly hampers their staying power. Even Rotom-W could potentially be slower if Gliscor is Jolly natured. Hippowdon can't to anything to Gliscor besides Roar. Ice Fang will fall to Toxic + stalling. That thing can even beat Ferrothorn 1vs1 due to Power Whips low PP. Something with Aromatherapy can work I guess, but clerics are very rare.
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  #22    
Old June 24th, 2011, 01:03 AM
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I just wanted to say that I am a fan of this thread.

@ smash pass: I've never actually came up with a team that had a plan to specifically deal with smashpass teams, particularly because I'm a) not a great teambuilder and b) I've never really focused on "dealing with opposing threats" and moreso just figuring out what walls me since I don't think I've ever successfully played anything but heavily offensive teams. Generally I've found it's easiest to beat smashpass with a variety of prediction, checks and priority. I generally start off with a heavy hitter like CB Dragonite who more or less ensures that Deoxys-S or Espeon only gets up Reflect, and then I'll find my way to Magnezone on the switch to Gorebyss. From there it's just trying to outplay the opponent in their head - I could just click Volt Switch and see what they do or I'll Flash Cannon an incoming Garchomp or something. I've honestly only lost against smashpass teams when I've really been outplayed - yeah, it does require a higher degree of... something to keep up with it because you are dealing with more powerful threats etc, but I don't feel like it's something that's absolutely unstoppable no matter what your team is unless you run Perish Song Politoed etc.

@ sub/protect gliscor: GAH GO DIE IN A HOLE GLISCOR. >:O this thing is really annoying, especially if played correctly. I've been deliberating on running Icicle Spear on Mamoswine just for things like this and Sub-Twave Dragonite. Or I could go run CB Cloyster...

Also Lala I skipped over your post entirely. Is that bad? :x
edit: nevermind I read it. :)
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Last edited by Vrai; June 24th, 2011 at 01:07 AM. Reason: lalala
  #23    
Old June 24th, 2011, 01:50 PM
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I actually laddered my first ever Wifi UU match just earlier today and it was against a dude ranked in the top 50 0_o. The variation was something like +91, -2 or something riduculous. Since I had no idea how UU works, I decided to throw in some of my favorite Pokemon. The team ended up have 3 Sucker Punch users with 5/6 of them having LO. Needless to say... through a combination of luck, skill, and whim I managed to secure victory! SubRhyperior curbstomped everything after his Bronzong died. I kinda feel bad for him though ;_;

So yeah, UU's suprisingly a fun metagame (not better than Ubers though ;D). I'll be playing it more often after I learn the ropes first.

This part doesn't really have anything to do with UU, but I've seen A LOT more double dragons + Magnezone offensive cores lately (thanks PK...). And Haxorus is getting some use and I've been on the recieving end of CB Rivalry Outrage before... ouch. Not that they're common or anything, just they're around.
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  #24    
Old June 24th, 2011, 02:04 PM
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^BRONZONG IS UU????????!!!!!!???

And lol, flamehaze, I should totally play you in ubers. It's so fun. I suck at it though, and I want a good team-mate for Groudon other than Ho-Oh. (maybe reshiram but idk)
  #25    
Old June 24th, 2011, 02:20 PM
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That was me on the Beta server. They have a more active Ubers ladder than Smogon's which is why I'm there more now.

Giratina-O is a good partner for Groudon, since it beats Forretress and can priority Shadow Sneak to kill Deoxys-A and Mewtwo that threaten Groudon. It's also a pretty ok switch in to non-Specs Kyogre. Palkia is generally an awesome partner too. Groudon + Scarfkia beats every single Rayquaza there is. It can also abuse Rain in case Kyogre shows up and can be your primary switch to sponge Specs Water Spout.
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