Atheist Alliance

[HackDeoxys]

Hey, sign me up.I don't get all this talk about God and Jesus and all that. It just doesn't really make sense to me why people would believe that there's some big omnipresent deity watching over the universe. There's absolutely [i]no[/b] evidence to support the theory, so why people would believe it anyways, I don't know. In old times I know people believed that God (or multiple Gods) created humans and animals and caused stuff like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but now we know that's not true, so I don't get why people still believe.

[FrostPheonix]

Originally Posted by AdvancedK47

Evolution is not something you believe in. Evolution is a theory strongly supported by research in biology. If you believe evolution is hogwash, say why. Or is it that you don't have the sufficient understanding nor prudence to do so?

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

To my mind, not believing in evolution (or by extension, natural selection) is the same as saying "I don't believe in science". The idea that a person could completely disregard something that years and years of research has gone into proving... it seems more than a little ignorant. Going into the science of it myself would be redundant since AK47 has just done it better than I ever could, but if you're choosing to believe in a God the existence of whom is essentially (and conveniently) impossible to prove instead of a scientific theory where you can be shown tactile evidence... I don't understand that.

Originally Posted by Zet

I'm a Catholic but I accept evolution. Saying it is hogwash when there's is evidence to strongly support it, and there being genetic links is just ignorance and only makes you look like an idiot.

Didn't expect everyone would get offended. And I also hope you guys think about it from my perspective before you go calling me ignorant. I'll just ignore anything I might take as an insult...

My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.

Originally Posted by HackDeoxys

Hey, sign me up.I don't get all this talk about God and Jesus and all that. It just doesn't really make sense to me why people would believe that there's some big omnipresent deity watching over the universe. There's absolutely [i]no[/b] evidence to support the theory, so why people would believe it anyways, I don't know. In old times I know people believed that God (or multiple Gods) created humans and animals and caused stuff like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but now we know that's not true, so I don't get why people still believe.

Just wanted to edit this in.
think about it, for a little, from a christian point of view. If there really was God, couldn't it all be possible?

[HarrisonH]

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix

My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

There are many things wrong with this statement. There are an infinite number of things that aren't talked about in the Bible. That's not an argument against evolution at all.

Pretty much, if you say you don't believe in evolution because it isn't in the bible, you shouldn't EVER use electricity or anything made possible by it, eat any processed foods, drive cars, wear sunglasses, wear boots, wear clothing made of synthetic materials, etc etc. Be consistent.

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.

There are many things wrong with this as well. First off is that the eubacterial flagellum, consisting of three parts ("motor", "shaft", "propeller"), has an analog in archaebacteria that consists of only two parts ("motor", "combined shaft-propeller"). So the idea of it being irreducibly complex is already bunk.

Additionally, a claim is "well if you take one part away, the rest is useless". Again, this is not entirely true of the eubacterial flagellum. The "motor" part of a eubacterial flagellum is incredibly similar to the secretion systems and other motility systems present. Again, irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is complete bunk.

If you're interested in reading more, there is a good paper on the topic here. Note that it is rather long, however.

[AdvancedK47]

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix

Didn't expect everyone would get offended. And I also hope you guys think about it from my perspective before you go calling me ignorant. I'll just ignore anything I might take as an insult...

Offended by what? You provided a premise and a conclusion and we told you why it's hogwash in itself. Just a typical day for any Philosopher.

My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

HarrisonH committed a fallacy Philosophers like to call the Inconsistency Ad Hominem. What you said is not refuted simply because you do other things that are not mentioned in your bible, such as browsing the internet.

Now, you argue that Evolution is not mentioned in the Bible, therefore, it's false. That's not exactly an argument that can be dealt with unless you add another premise: What exactly is false if its not in the Bible? Science? Everything? I will not say anything yet, as this is not a developed argument. And so, nobody can even say if what you said is valid or not.

The claim that God created through evolution is best described as Intelligent Design. But it would be nice if you could say why that is not true. Or at least finally say if you are in favor of Creationism and what the details of that belief are.

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.

I haven't done much research on irreducible complexity, but the arguments do feel flimsy. For example, what does it mean for a system of parts 'to work'? Yes, if you remove a part of the system, it will probably not do the same function as before, but it can probably still function.

Evolution can definitely explain how a part that appears irreducibly complex still come about. The system might have had a different function with just slightly different parts. But a strong push or mutation can theoretically alter parts of the system to change the system itself into something irreducibly complex. This is much better explained in Richard Dawkin's (in)famous book The God Delusion. I also found a video on Youtube that uses computer technology to sort of 'evolve' clocks in a computer program, inductively proving that there can and will be missing links in the fossil record, and that most 'valid' irreducibly complex arguments are flawed as they don't rely on the definition of life [E.g. the watch and the watchmaker]

Just wanted to edit this in.
think about it, for a little, from a christian point of view. If there really was God, couldn't it all be possible?

The most logical thing to believe, as Atheists, would be that there was a first event--the cause of the Big Bang-- and nothing more. Physics and Mathematics took their place as the rulers of the universe and decided for our physical existence. By consequence, we should also believe that consciousness is nothing more than an effect of the functions of our brain, and can be explained someday. We essentially have no free will and are at the mercy of the laws of Quantum Mechanics.

The depressing but scientifically plausible nature of our beliefs are probably why people think we're some goddamn chronically depressed masochists.

[PhantomX0990]

Whoo, Phantom is late for the party.


Question PC, what do religious people say that pisses you off? There's got to be something. I know it. I can read your mind.

Seriously though, is there some argument or statement that really makes you pound a keyboard until is has the same consistency of mashed potatos?

[Shining Raichu]

Firstly, I'd just like to say kudos on your use of the word "mashed potatoes" in a sentence about religion XD

Secondly, one of the biggest things that annoy me is when they say "It's all part of God's plan" or "God works in mysterious ways". In any debate, that is the flimsiest excuse of an argument and there's no way you can even argue against it because it's simply that stupid. How convenient that God is allowing Ethiopians to die in poverty because it's all part of his mysterious plan...

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Firstly, I'd just like to say kudos on your use of the word "mashed potatoes" in a sentence about religion XD

Secondly, one of the biggest things that annoy me is when they say "It's all part of God's plan" or "God works in mysterious ways". In any debate, that is the flimsiest excuse of an argument and there's no way you can even argue against it because it's simply that stupid. How convenient that God is allowing Ethiopians to die in poverty because it's all part of his mysterious plan...

You totally know that every religious argument is better with mashed potatoes. Seriously, it is, once me and my grandfather, who is Eastern Orthodox but an amazing guy and so fun to discuss religion with, were in an agument and when things got heated he threw mashed potatoes at me, and then I threw stuffing and then more potatoes, and next thing we know the entire family is having a food fight.

And I so agree on that one. One that always gets me is the circular Bible logic, or the CHRISTIANITY IS THE ONLY RELIGION RAWWR people. Also known as those who talk as if no other religion exists or is relevant. Or ones who think they know everything and start quoting the Bible and then I counter quote and they yell at me saying I can't do that and to use my own words. Leaving me going "butbutbutbutyousaidyoubutIbutyoubut-SUCK IT".

EDIT: BIG EDIT:

Also since I joined a while ago, and I don't expect people to go that far back, here's my story:

I was raised Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school since K, decided I was atheist around maybe my sophomore year of high school. A lot of crap had happened that made me question religion, and the more I questioned the less sense it made. But when I say I was Catholic, I mean it, I was an alter server, I was in the choir when I wasn't on the alter. Went to mass five times a week, (serious, every Friday with school, then two masses Saturday and two on Sunday since I was one of two altar servers) I was even a youth group leader and lead Bible classes.

I went to private catholic school since I was in kindergarten. (Graduated from a school of the LaSallian rite, taught by Christian Brothers) (graduated in 2009) Which meant I took a minimum of two theology classes a year in elementary and middle school, in high school a minimum of four (two a semester), aside from a life of religion. That's thirteen years of uniforms and cramming Christian dogma down my throat. Two relatives are priests, my grandfather is a respected member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and one of my best friends is joining the priesthood; my grandparents even run a food shelf "Trinity Mission" which I am still a part of. I was an server for twelve years, received four of the seven sacraments (Baptism, Eucharist, Confession, and, sadly, Confirmation). I also took a theology class in college as well as three philisophy classes... I've also taken a World Religions course (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Judaism)((that one was actually taught at my Catholic high school... they removed the class soon after... guess why)) and a in-depth class on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My move to atheism was hardly an uneducatd decision.

I had always doubted. The more classes and the more I learned the more I started to question. It started when my mother got cancer when I was in 7th grade. I thought what God would do this to someone? It's a question that I understand is asked quite often. The Church had no answer than "God's will". I believe that I was agnostic for most of my life, unsure of what to believe. The more questions, what I've seen, what I've lived through, they make no sense in a world with a loving God. I've lost friends to war, I saw the towers fall, my mom almost died, my best friends mom as well. I volunteer freaking everywhere I tried other religions, most in study, a few by practice but none made any sense. The last straw was when my church's priest was diagnosed with dementia and lost his mind, and the new priest was amazingly corrupt, and an alcholic to boot. The old priest was a good man, a man worthy of respect. Now he doesn't know who he is anymore. The last mass I ever served was one he attended nine months after being diagnosed. He couldn't follow mass anymore. He would stand, and yell at the nurse with him that he wanted to leave because he was scared. He became aggitated and hit her. I almost cried when I saw this. I was really close to that priest and to see him like this. Such a good man and a man of great faith, how could his god allow that? And this new priest was power hungry. Within two years he basically took over the Diocese, becoming the main priest for four churches. He was cruel and cared only for himself. Not only that but he told me, after twelve, almost thirteen years of service, that I could no longer be an alter server (note for those who aren't Catholic, there are ADULT servers) because I was female.

All of this lead to me deciding that there was no god, and yet I still am researching religion because I find it interesting.

[AdvancedK47]

Very wild childhood you must have had there, Phantom. Not everyone has the critical thinking abilities to release themselves from religion's grasp. Especially in the Catholic church, organized religion results in a lot of corruption. Think about it: You're the leader of masses of people who have been taught from birth to blindly follow their god and their religious leaders. It's actual cruelty being deprived of your ability to think. You can realize this fact later, but greed will kick in and make you take advantage of it.

It's silly how Christians think we're supposed to not understand God's plan. They believe that he is their 'shepherd'. But what's the point of having a leader if his plan can't be communicated clearly? It's like explaining Quantum Physics to a group of second graders, but instead of having a simplified lecture you have them play a game of telephone with the information.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by AdvancedK47

Very wild childhood you must have had there, Phantom. Not everyone has the critical thinking abilities to release themselves from religion's grasp. Especially in the Catholic church, organized religion results in a lot of corruption. Think about it: You're the leader of masses of people who have been taught from birth to blindly follow their god and their religious leaders. It's actual cruelty being deprived of your ability to think. You can realize this fact later, but greed will kick in and make you take advantage of it.

It's silly how Christians think we're supposed to not understand God's plan. They believe that he is their 'shepherd'. But what's the point of having a leader if his plan can't be communicated clearly? It's like explaining Quantum Physics to a group of second graders, but instead of having a simplified lecture you have them play a game of telephone with the information.

I agree, indoctrination is an evil, evil thing. Blind faith is stupid and dangerous as I've learned. But it was the fact that when I was in 8th grade and was tutoring a second grader through a buddy system, and it was 9/11 and we had a special ceremony and the kid didn't understand what a Muslim was. Conversation was like this.

"What's a Muslim?"
"It's a person who follows Islam, another religion."
"What do you mean another religion?"
"Uh, well there are lots of other religions, Islam is one of them, the people who follow it are called Muslims."
"Why are there other religions?"
"Uh-crap-uh, well there are people who don't believe in God the same way we do and they do it differently. Some don't even believe in the same one. Some even have more than one."
"That's stupid; we should all worship the same one and then this wouldn't have happened."
"Uh, maybe, but everyone can believe what they want to, or they were raised differently."
"Why wouldn't everyone believe the same thing?"
"Because people are different from each other, and they learned differently."
"What are the other religions?"
"Uh there's lots, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists..."
"I still think we should all worship the same religion, that way there won't be any more bad stuff."
"Sure, maybe, yeah I guess...? Hey let's go ask your teacher what's next for today, huh? MRS. OLSON!!!"


Indoctrination is messed up, but the kid had the right idea, how many wars and conflicts are attributed to religion as a main factor? Smart kid, he was.

[Shining Raichu]

Phantom, what is Confirmation? Why is it sadder that you went through that than any of the other sacraments?

[Gamzee]

I'd like to join. Pantheist, influenced by eastern religion and philosophies here.

Just to answer various questions I've seen posted throughout the thread:


- I'm completely for gay marriage and LGBT rights. This should be self explanatory. Being against these is discriminatory and wrong.
- Pro-choice. Woman's body, her choice.
- Death penalty is a no-no. No one has the right to take away another's life.
- Believe 100% in evolution
- Have never felt a religion being pressed on me in public school.
- I believe aliens might exist, though I doubt they've visited Earth.
- Family (and most friends) have no clue about my faith.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Phantom, what is Confirmation? Why is it sadder that you went through that than any of the other sacraments?

In the Catholic Church you go through seven Sacraments, there are four 'basic' ones that all Catholics need to go through and one before they die. In a Private Catholic school usually they are laid out for you when and where you receive your sacraments.

1. Baptism- Most are baptised as babies, within a few months after birth. (water marked over head, some stuff with a candle, blah blah blah)

2. Reconciliation (Confession)- In second grade we went through Reconciliation classes. Teaching us what we needed to do during Confession. Prayers, what you say to the priest etc. In fact I still the Act of Contrition... "O my God I am sorry for my sins. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good. I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do good, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Amen." I learned that when I was seven. IT'S BURNED INTO MY BRAIN.

3. Eucharist - you-car-ist- (Communion) For almost three months in second grade (along with Confession class they were taught at the same time in my school) how to receive the Eucharist. AKA Jesus in handy cracker form. Learned handy things like what to do if you drop the host, (EAT IT EAAT IT NOW!), and which hand goes over the other. (Create a cradle with your hands like you're holding baby Jesus kids! Left hand over right, and when the host is on your left hand pick it up with your right and deposit it on your tongue!)

4. Confirmation- the reason I am pissed that I went through Confirmation is because it finalized my 'commitment' to the Catholic Church. AKA the only way I can be 'removed' from it's list of worshippers is to be EXCOMMUNICATED DUNDUNDUN! Since we're Baptised as babies we go through final Confirmation when we're older, usually between 8-10th grade, through a month long class and community service and a large Mass lead by the Archbishop. We even take a Saint's name. I chose St. Elizabeth. You receive a handy oil cross on your forehead and say "Yep I believe!"

5. Marriage- obvious

6 Holy Orders- Becoming clergy, nun, priest etc.

7. Last Rites- Get blessed and freed of sin before you die.


All this stuff, implanted in my brain. Hell I went to a funeral for my great grandfather two weeks ago. And during the Mass I kept having this feeling like I should be doing something. (Leftover I assume from being a server for so long.)


In short Shining Raichu: I am pissed I went through Confirmation because I am now solidified in the Catholic Church, and can't be otherwise removed. I didn't want it, but my parent's forced me into it. Now that I'm an adult I want free, but I ask every priest if there is a way to remove me from the list of Confirmed but it's impossible without literally being Excommunicated. Which funnily is very hard to do nowadays.

[AdvancedK47]

My mom wants me to do a Confirmation as well. She's not very pressuring about it, but she doesn't seem to understand that my beliefs are not a simple phase.

But besides, even if you do undergo all the rituals of the Catholic church, it doesn't really matter if you decide you are not Catholic anymore. It's just fancy superstitious rituals, and it's not hard to explain that the Catholic church is just throwing stubborn tantrums if you can't remove yourself from some list.

Well, the Catholic church's fancy mathematics was part of the reason we have Protestants: People who hated the church but still kept its superstitions.

[Misheard Whisper]

I went through Confirmation as well when I was eight years old, and it's one of the biggest regrets of my life. I stop just short of hating my church for it, because I really try not to feel that way about anyone, but it really, really pisses me off. Mostly because I was never given a choice. I was never even told that there was a choice. I took Religious Education classes for my first few years at school, and Confirmation was put up on this pedestal as something that everybody did. The teachers told us, "When you turn eight, you will be Confirmed," and that was it. It was simply taken for granted that we would do it without actually explaining why.

The sickest part of that, actually, is this: Confirmation is designed so that you can, essentially, renew your baptism. It's a little more complicated than that, but at the most basic level, you repeat the binding to the Church you received at birth, but you do it at an age where you have free will and knowledge of what is happening. This supposedly makes you a 'willing' Catholic. The terrible irony is that I didn't have free will or knowledge of what was happening. I was never told of an alternative. I didn't even know that not everybody was Confirmed. Because I was eight years old and my teachers and parents told me so, I took it for granted that it was a set event in my life.

There was a lot of that sort of thing all through my Catholic school education, but that is of course the most egregious case. The other sacraments like Reconciliation just made me feel silly. I went in and sat next to the priest, but I had no idea what to say. I mean, of course nobody's perfect, but I was a good little kid. When he asked how I had sinned, I had no idea, so I just told him I wasn't doing the dishes at home as often as I was supposed to be. I hadn't stolen anything, I hadn't hit anybody, I hadn't cheated on my homework. That's more of a funny anecdote than a sad one, though.

Another one involves the fact that I wasn't aware of other religions. It went awfully similarly to PhantomX0990's story with the second-grader, though, so I won't go into any more detail.

[FrostPheonix]

Kind of zoned out, so no idea what the discussion is abt... something abt confirmation being forced upon you?
Anyways, I just saw a 2012 theory (again) about some kind of solar storm foreseen by NASA scientists. Turned out to be a hoax. But, got me thinking, do you guys believe in the end of the world? If you do, when do you think it will happen, and through what means? Doesn't have to be 2012 I guess, just an end sometime in the future?

[Pudz]

Is it appropriate for a person of an atheistic faith (ie, buddhism) to join here?

[PhantomX0990]

This might interest my fellow atheists. This made me want to break something.

[morrison]

The city of Hamburg have a higher percentage of people who dion't belong to a religious group than people who are.

[XEL]

Not quite an atheist since I consider myself an agnostic humanist, but sign me up!

[Shining Raichu]

Of course you can join Pudz, even Christians can join if they so wish so you are more than welcome :D - and welcome to Gamzee too! I keep forgetting about this club, I'm so bad. Whenever I come to Other Clubs I always think of the LGBT Club and then forget about this D:

Confirmation sounds like a terrible idea. Like, it kind of crosses the line from identifying with a religion and choosing to be a part of one, to being inducted and sealed in.

And regarding the article, those tweets and statuses are disgusting! This one in particular I found disturbing:



They're just pissed off because she won and they lost. The reason it was important that the prayer be taken down was that education shouldn't be based on religion. That banner sends a dangerous message to the world, and the fact that she is persecuted for bringing about change is horrifying. And the violent messages that come from the Christians who pride themselves on love... well wow, it's amazing religion is becoming less popular with every passing day, isn't it?

[FrostPheonix]

truth be told, I'm appalled at what those comments said... no wonder Christians get bad remarks these days . I'm christian myself, and sure, I think she made a bit too much of a deal about a banner, but really? Those comments just pissed me off. What in the world are they thinking? Sometimes I wish people think before they comment. And not just about how angry they are, to think some common sense. Almost all of them are just giving Christians a bad name... :*( That is, the first few comments did.

[Shining Raichu]

...aaanyway.

This is something I can't believe I never thought to mention - it has been nearly two months now and we are an atheist club that never even acknowledged it. Famous atheistic writer Christopher Hitchens, author of my favourite anti-theistic text "God Is Not Great", unfortunately passed away. He was a great man and an amazing influence on the world, and it is terrible that he couldn't live into his golden years doing what he did best.

[Saryka]

SUP ATHEISTS (and non-atheists too!). Another atheist here, looking to join~

To go back on the topic on Confirmation: I was actually baptized Catholic and went through my first Communion when I was seven because I was still somewhat religious then. But in grade eight (when I was more or less agnostic), I refused to do Confirmation because I didn't want to choose Catholicism for myself. I was the only person in my class to make this decision and it made me feel special for some reason haha. My friend (who actually isn't baptized therefore she's not eligible for Confirmation) and I skipped school on the day of our class' Confirmation retreat and stayed at her place playing Kingdom Hearts like REBELS.

but tl;dr I didn't want to choose Catholicism for myself so to this day I have not been confirmed and I'm okay with that. :D

[Shining Raichu]

YAY Saryka has joined us! :D

I actually until this club had no idea that confirmation was a thing. It just seems like such a toxic concept - it's almost like a grab for control. Like, "OK, so you're Catholic, right? You're CONFIRMED. No changing your mind now, you're in!"

[PhantomX0990]

Yeah. Plus it takes quite some time. Classes for it here were about a month long and about four hours a night.