The PokéCommunity Forums  

Go Back   The PokéCommunity Forums > The PokéCommunity Archives > ARCHIVED: Battle Center
Sign Up Rules/FAQ Live Battle Blogs Mark Forums Read

Notices

ARCHIVED: Battle Center This forum is designed for all of your Pokémon battling needs! The main forum is meant for discussions, battle requests, battle logs, and other threads related to battling. Look to the sub-forums for events and team help.

 
 
Thread Tools
  #1    
Old February 2nd, 2012, 08:00 AM
Miss Doronjo's Avatar
Miss Doronjo
Gaiden
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Age: 22
Gender: Male
Nature: Quirky
Okay, so, there has been some talk that Volcarona, one of the most powerful sweepers in OU, deserves to be removed from OU, and put into Ubers.

Do you feel Volcarona needs to go to Ubers? Why or Why not?
__________________

Hawthorne Guardian
Moderator of Video Games
Paired to: Perdition Haze

Pokémon:PhoenixRising
Sylvie
  #2    
Old February 2nd, 2012, 08:22 AM
Forever's Avatar
Forever
let it go
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://goo.my/server
Age: 22
Gender: Female
tbh I don't think it does, with SR in play, which is common, and maybe a level of spikes or toxic spikes then it should be able to be taken out. Either by something faster like Latios w/o QD being used (then again chestorest maybe not). I dunno, I feel like there's a lot of Pokemon that can destroy it and without screens or sun I don't think it's that much of an issue. I mean I only really lost a lot to Volcarona in the early days before I used SR, which I think is a major thing in making it not so bad.

However, resisting the most common forms of priority other than Extremespeed (aka Bullet Punch and Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch), only really Sucker Punch stands a chance and if you don't have that in your team it's kinda a struggle, but I don't think that those things necessarily make it such an issue, especially against something like Unaware Quagsire.
__________________
I'm paired with and in love with Frizy ♥
  #3    
Old February 2nd, 2012, 11:19 AM
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf
Dream Evil.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Ah excellent thread.

Firstly i want to draw up the Stealth Rock argument. No, i feel this is a weak argument or why cant Ho-Oh be Ou ? I just dont buy it especially with things on Volc teams like Xatu/Esp and spinners sure they can all be stopped, but still. :/

To be honest in some ways Volcarona is actually HARDER to beat than Ho-Oh is imo as 4x weak SR mons go. Honestly, Ho-Oh doesn't even get a stat boosting move outside of CM whilst Volcarona gets Quiver Dance, less weaks and better resists than Ho-Oh does. It also has superior speed which makes it alot harder to deal with because it outspeeds basically all of the metagame bar two viable scarfers i.e as Landorus and Terrakion. That more than makes up for Volcs lack of speed/ability to use its attack stat and def imo, being able to outrun basically anything in the metagame and KO them.

As far as counters and checks go, Volcarona can basically muscle its way through 90% of its checks which ill expand on in a second. It can sweep entire rain teams which in my mind is just preposterous (so its arguably not the sun's fault either) because it actually sets up on its so called checks in bulky waters with Quiver Dance. Things like Jellicent stand 0 chance vs it. In the sun its even worse, a simple +1 (no LO) Fire Blast OHKO's Gyarados, Salamence and Dragonite with Stealth Rock present some more "so called checks" beaten. Chansey and Blissy are no match either and are both 2hko'd at +1 in the sun with SR present and are essentially +6+6+6 bait for the Chesto Rest.

Volcarona is very much like Blaziken in that it destroys all but 3 or 4 very few select Pokemon and in my mind this really isnt healthy for the metagame. In ways its also worse than Blaziken as it resists all priority bar ES and the exceeding rare Aqua Jet (which wont come close to even 50% in the sun lol). Blaziken only has around the same number of mons that counld deal with it (Slowbro, Unaware Quag, CB Nite sort of ?)

So as far as checks/counters to this set alone;

Volcarona@ Chesto Berry
Modest
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- bug Buzz
- Rest

In Ou in the sun you have;

- Scarf Landorus
- Scarf Terrakion (NEEDS to be scarfer or takes 83.8% - 98.8% from +1 Modest Fire Blast in the sun)
- Roar Heatran (loses if Volc is last poke however, which ive seen done and loses to the even more offensive versions with HP Ground). Heatran is on a death sentence against sun teams with [Possible Sash] Dugtrio, which is the majority of them which use it to kill Tyanitar/Blissey also.

- Scarf Meinshao.
- Snorlax and Hariyama possibly
- CB Nite to pick it off at at like 50/60% ?

The bolded are OU, just for reference.

Volcarona also has other sets where things like Sub that eliminate the scarfers or random Hidden Powers and even Morning Sun. Im only assessing one set and not even going into other sets because i feel ive already assessed just how deadly it is with just 1 set.


Quote:
Unaware Quagsire.
Gets 2hko'd by Bug Buzz due to its horrible sp.def.
__________________
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.

Last edited by Dark Azelf; February 2nd, 2012 at 11:29 AM.
  #4    
Old February 4th, 2012, 12:14 PM
PkMnTrainer Yellow's Avatar
PkMnTrainer Yellow
Pokemon Professor / RP Mentor
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Coast, USA
Gender: Female
Nature: Sassy
...Simply put? If Garchomp warrants a banish, Volcarona probably should too. Because outside of a very specific niche Volcarona more or less does what Garchomp does better. Mainly because in practice Garchomp is more frail and his boosting moves don't make him tankier like Volcarona's do. Also, Volcarona can heal itself via Morning Sun. Not to mention the fact that everyone and their uncle cannot get over the novelty of having ice moves ready to own dragon pokemon.
__________________
  #5    
Old February 4th, 2012, 06:37 PM
PokeRaidenFighter350Z's Avatar
PokeRaidenFighter350Z
Battle Subway Editor
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: RF HQ
Gender: Male
Nature: Careful
I think that pokemon should have banishment to Uber because it's the only one that can learn a Fire attack that may raise its Sp. Atk. Despite being super weak against Rock, it can easily wipe out a lot after just one Quiver Dance.
__________________

All forum members BEWARE..!
Credits to Xulek
  #6    
Old February 4th, 2012, 06:55 PM
XEL's Avatar
XEL
Lorem Ipsum
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Age: 21
Generally speaking, I don't have much problems with Volcarona. Mainly cause I rarely, if ever, carry around a Special Attacker. I actually like seeing Volcarona being sent out as it usually warrants a free KO. More or less a STAB priority will take it out whether or not it resists it.

I haven't actually faced a Volca with no prior damage after a set up though, so I can't really shed light on the topic from that standpoint.

Last edited by XEL; February 4th, 2012 at 07:02 PM.
  #7    
Old February 4th, 2012, 09:17 PM
Livewire's Avatar
Livewire
League Champion
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Victory Road
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Send a message via Skype™ to Livewire
Quote:
Originally Posted by PkMnTrainer Yellow View Post
...Simply put? If Garchomp warrants a banish, Volcarona probably should too.
This, basically. Garchomp (And plenty of others, too) were banned for less.
__________________
Hoenn Champion Steven wants to battle!
Aggron (Lv. 57) - Sturdy- (Iron Tail, Stone Edge)
Metagross (Lv. 59) - Clear Body - (Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt)
ORAS Release Staff Collab 2014
  #8    
Old February 6th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Lewny
Beginning Trainer
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Gender: Male
It takes huge damage from stealth rocks, gets completely wall'd by some pokemon and is rather easy to OHKO.

IMO should be kept were it is.
__________________
My Friend Code : 4384 6278 3498

Add me for battles and trades

My Trade thread:http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=273095
  #9    
Old February 6th, 2012, 09:21 AM
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf
Dream Evil.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewny View Post
It takes huge damage from stealth rocks, gets completely wall'd by some pokemon and is rather easy to OHKO.

IMO should be kept were it is.
So does Ho-Oh @ Stealth Rock argument, so i guess we can move that down to OU ? I just dont buy it as a viable argument when we have spinners/magic bouncers. :/

And if you see my previous post there are VERY few viable ways of beating Volcarona consistently.

If you'd like to elaborate on what beats/walls it consistently in the sun that would be great also.
__________________
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
  #10    
Old February 6th, 2012, 06:33 PM
NothingPersonal's Avatar
NothingPersonal
The vietnamese pokemon master.
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: A world of depression.
Gender: Male
Nature: Relaxed
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to NothingPersonal
Volcarona isn't uber material (Yay, 99% of all teams have a dragonite and stealth rock). Heatran and Dnite/Mence wall it because of resisting it's STABs. The only thing they have to fear is a random Hidden Power. Just make sure you bring a solid special wall and you should be fine. If you ban Volcarona, go ahead and ban the rest of the abusive pokes in gen 5 OU.
__________________
  #11    
Old February 6th, 2012, 06:41 PM
XEL's Avatar
XEL
Lorem Ipsum
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by NothingPersonal View Post
Volcarona isn't uber material (Yay, 99% of all teams have a dragonite and stealth rock). Heatran and Dnite/Mence wall it because of resisting it's STABs. The only thing they have to fear is a random Hidden Power. Just make sure you bring a solid special wall and you should be fine. If you ban Volcarona, go ahead and ban the rest of the abusive pokes in gen 5 OU.
While I'm not arguing for the ban of Volcarona, I find this argument kind of weak :/

Back in Gen 4 people said, "Garchomp isn't Uber material," "Just carry a revenge killing Weavile," "We might as well ban ___."

The problem is, Garchomp really did cause problems, especially in the sand when you often had to sacrifice a Pokemon to bring it down. Keep in mind, like I've said, I've never had problems with Volcarona, personally.

Also, Pokemon in the Uber tier aren't exactly there based on power within the tier, like the other tiers. Instead, the Uber tier is made of Pokemon deemed to powerful for OU play.
  #12    
Old February 6th, 2012, 06:44 PM
TheBowsinator's Avatar
TheBowsinator
Pi Lieker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 16
Gender: Male
what? no! Stealth rocks, whether you like it or not, is a defining force of this meta. 50% every switch in with rocks in play is bad. Even if no rocks, its still not uber material. The best set, the bulky one, has only a fire and a bug move. Rock types wall it completely (most notably terrakion, and if it has scarf +1)

Situation - it has a couple quiver dances up

Response - Use a bulky water, rock type, or other wall.

More checks - Aqua jet, Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence, Heatran, and Terrakion, and Rain (unless rain abuser set) and sand.

Personally, the most broken thing in today's meta is dragonite; even that isn't worthy of a ban. is the meta balanced? no, we still have DW stuff to come in. Volca is absolutely not broken; its just people who get swept by it too easily complaining.

To an above poster;

Volcarona@ Chesto Berry
Modest
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- bug Buzz
- Rest

is an OK set, but the one that works best imo as a late game cleaner (should be volca's main job) is

Volcarona@ leftovers
252 Def 252 HP 4 Spe
Bold
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- bug Buzz
- Morning Sun

Enough bulk to recover like 75% of its HP in sun, and can be the perfect cleaner.
__________________
Legitness doesn't come easy. You must be a turtle with epicness flowing from your veins...but u must not have veins, BUT SOMEHOW IT STILL WORKS
  #13    
Old February 7th, 2012, 08:53 AM
Yoshikkko's Avatar
Yoshikkko
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Nature: Adamant
I kind of have mixed feelings about this, on one hand I feel like it does because it's insanely strong and kind of busted but on the other hand it can also be beaten fairly easily if it's not being used well. Its defense isn't very good and many powerful physical moves can OHKO it, and it's not like it doesn't require some sort of tactic to use.
__________________

team super cotton ×
  #14    
Old February 7th, 2012, 11:19 AM
revelp8's Avatar
revelp8
My mohawk is on fiiiyaaaa!
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: California
Gender: Male
Nature: Hasty
Send a message via AIM to revelp8
the arguments you guys put up are really weak imo "I've never had problems with Volcarona, personally."

The WHOLE point is to discuss whether it warrants a ban to ubers, not if you don't have any problems dealing with it [/rant]

On the other issue, I don't believe that volcarona warrants a ban. There are quite a few checks.

Stealth Rock.
Phazers, unless last poke. volcarona always run quiver dance, though it would be awesome to see a choice specs user...hrmmm (plots) anyways...

Latio's LO Draco Meteor outright OHKOs volcarona, though leftovers Latios draco meteor should be wary, as volcarona usually run a lot of HP, and has a great base sp def, and has a good chance of tanking the hit, QDing up and bug buzzing for the kill.

Dragonite's ES 2HKOs all volcarona, though it should be wary of flame body. even if it does get burned, volcarona is usually at a low enough health that it wouldn't matter. Dnite should be wary of the rest set, as by then it will most likely have been burned and volca will be at full health.

Heatran's roar. if last poke, lulz volcarona will power thru with bug buzz. if sun is up and volcarona has at least 1 QD, heatran's Fire Blast 2HKOs.

Politoed. drizzle + water STAB. also toxic and perish song.

I guess tyranitar could be considered a check in some ways, as more players are running the sp def sets, but its 2HKOd if volca has at least 1 QD.

and all these are OU, and commonly used.
__________________
  #15    
Old February 7th, 2012, 12:33 PM
XEL's Avatar
XEL
Lorem Ipsum
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Age: 21
^ Hey, hey, hey, don't target everyone just cause I'm the only one saying that

And by saying I haven't had problems, I'm just trying to politely say: Volcarona causes me problems maybe 20% of the time. A little residual damage here and there and even Scizor can pick it off with Bullet Punch. At least in my experience.
  #16    
Old February 7th, 2012, 03:16 PM
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf
Dream Evil.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by NothingPersonal View Post
Volc isn't uber material (Yay, 99% of all teams have a dragonite and stealth rock). Heatran and Dnite/Mence wall it because of resisting it's STABs. The only thing they have to fear is a random Hidden Power. Just make sure you bring a solid special wall and you should be fine. If you ban Volcarona, go ahead and ban the rest of the abusive pokes in gen 5 OU.
Yeah resisting its STAB doesnt mean they wall if. +1 Quiver Dance Fire Blast basically OHKO's Salamence in the sun i hope you are aware of that and also Dragonite is KO'd with Rocks up. If we assume "99% of teams have SR" it just helps Volcs uber case also because it removes all those flying counters you mention too.

Oh also, it sets up on like all viable special walls ? See Blissey and Jirachi.

Sr still isnt a good case for arguing something OU status and basically it being 100% relied on to beat said mon. See: Ho-oh. "99% of teams have Rotom-W and SR lets make Ho-oH Ou".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBowsinator View Post
what? no! Stealth rocks, whether you like it or not, is a defining force of this meta. 50% every switch in with rocks in play is bad. Even if no rocks, its still not uber material. The best set, the bulky one, has only a fire and a bug move. Rock types wall it completely (most notably terrakion, and if it has scarf +1)

Rock types cant take a hit from it in the sun at all. Plus i could say same for Ho-Oh "Oh Rotom-W walls it". Terrakion HAS to be scarfed to beat it or it loses to Fire Blast in the sun no questions asked and thats resisted.

Situation - it has a couple quiver dances up

Response - Use a bulky water, rock type, or other wall.

Lol, bulky waters get set up on, in the sun especially. Volc can sweep entire rain dance teams pretty easily so something tells me Bulky waters really dont beat it. They cant do anything to like +6 sp.def which is what it will get on them with Chesto Rest set.

More checks - Aqua jet, Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence, Heatran, and Terrakion <--MUST be scarfed, and Rain (unless rain abuser set) and sand.

Gyara, Nite and Mence are all basically OHkO'd in the sun by RESISTED +1 Fire Blast, as is Terrakion. Aqua Jet doesnt work in the sun. Volc sets up on RD teams quite easily as previously mentioned. What on sand can beat it lol ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by revelp8 View Post
the arguments you guys put up are really weak imo "I've never had problems with Volcarona, personally."

The WHOLE point is to discuss whether it warrants a ban to ubers, not if you don't have any problems dealing with it [/rant]

On the other issue, I don't believe that volcarona warrants a ban. There are quite a few checks.

Stealth Rock.

"Ho-Ou please". Plus you need to run SR + ghost to ensure you dont get spun on which all good Volc users use or they are stupid. Magic Bounce too but lol.


Phazers, unless last poke. volcarona always run quiver dance, though it would be awesome to see a choice specs user...hrmmm (plots) anyways...

What Phazers beat it in the sun bar Heatran (sort of) ?

Latio's LO Draco Meteor outright OHKOs volcarona, though leftovers Latios draco meteor should be wary, as volcarona usually run a lot of HP, and has a great base sp def, and has a good chance of tanking the hit, QDing up and bug buzzing for the kill.

Um no. Cant switch in or revenge kill. Draco Meteor is doing nothing to +2 Sp.Def which is what Volc will have if you switch Latios in.

Dragonite's ES 2HKOs all volcarona, though it should be wary of flame body. even if it does get burned, volcarona is usually at a low enough health that it wouldn't matter. Dnite should be wary of the rest set, as by then it will most likely have been burned and volca will be at full health.

Yep 2HKO in the sun whilst you're OHKO'd back in return by +1 NON LO Fire Blast in the sun with SR up.

Heatran's roar. if last poke, lulz volcarona will power thru with bug buzz. if sun is up and volcarona has at least 1 QD, heatran's Fire Blast 2HKOs.

Heatran is a viable counter. Apart from the fact that most sun teams have Dugtrio or plus you run the risk of HP Ground on offensive Volc. That and last Poke Volc does indeed set up on Heatran who if has Roar is S.Def meaning it runs Lava Plume and not Fire Blast which would be too weak on a sp.def set anyway to beat last poke Volc. Unless you run offensive Heatran with Fire Blast + Roar but really what does that accomplish lol.

Politoed. drizzle + water STAB. also toxic and perish song.

Boosted Bug Buzz does MASSIVE damage to Politoed. Nothing on rain really beats Volc well at all as most of the stuff is +6 +6 +6 bait for the Chesto Rest set.

I guess tyranitar could be considered a check in some ways, as more players are running the sp def sets, but its 2HKOd if volca has at least 1 QD.

Taking like 82% from a move at best would not be a good check IMO.

and all these are OU, and commonly used.
k comments in bold
__________________
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.

Last edited by Dark Azelf; February 7th, 2012 at 03:35 PM.
  #17    
Old February 7th, 2012, 03:21 PM
PkMnTrainer Yellow's Avatar
PkMnTrainer Yellow
Pokemon Professor / RP Mentor
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Coast, USA
Gender: Female
Nature: Sassy
Garchomp has a 4x weakness to ice. It is and was always very frail when combined with the fact it has no good healing options or defensive boosting options. Meanwhile Quiver Dance makes many water attacks a joke While simultaneously letting it outspeed anything and OHKO.

Rock types? /ROCK TYPES/? Rock hasn't been a great wall type since like... Gen 1. O_o One quiver dance completely nullifies the resistance (Admitedly at the cost of stab) and most rock types are physical, not special walls. I see a OHKO on most of them with 1-2 dances.
__________________
  #18    
Old February 7th, 2012, 03:54 PM
TheBowsinator's Avatar
TheBowsinator
Pi Lieker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 16
Gender: Male
You can't compare ho-oh to volca when considering the SR weakness. Ho-oh's stats more than make it up, which is why he even does so good in ubers. Volca's stats do not make up the stealth rock weakness; pretty much one more attack and it's dead.

And rock types ARE specially bulky in sand, which is a very common weather. Pretty much rain and sand screw volca over.

lets back up our statements with damage calcs please

Note that this is MODEST so some jolly sets end up doing even less.

252SpAtk Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 26% chance to 2HKO.

252SpAtk Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Rain vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 16% - 19% (55 - 66 HP). Guaranteed 7HKO.

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 74% - 87% (247 - 291 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Rain vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 25% - 29% (83 - 98 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 26% chance to 2HKO.

No. +1 fire blast does NOT KO without rocks up. Though rocks are commonly up.

I didn't calc other pokemon, but compare gyardos's bulk to dragonites. It will obviously do less damage. Though it would KO salamence. Terrakion does not need a scarf btw. It can take the hit all day and just counter with stone edge. Also, who said that sun will be up 100% of the time.

Also, note that was FIRE BLAST. Fiery Dance is the more commonly used alternative, and if it isn't set up, lol it wont do anything. Gyara easily revenges with waterfall. Lets check out the other pokemon you said weren't checks.

Also, that was non-bulky gyara. Here's max HP gyarados, +1, and in Sun (its pretty common)

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 62% - 74% (248 - 292 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Consider all the other pokemon; in sand, rock types have doubled special defense. and sand is extremely common, meaning that a whole bunch of rock types can now take the attack decently.

I also like how you say that DRAGONITE is not a check to volca. Not only can dragonite end up setting up on its own with dragon dance and kill it with stone edge or earth-quake or something, but it can also phaze if it has dragon tail.

Garchomp was a league of it's own; it had sand veil. The popular sub yache set was horrendously broken, and is not comparable to volca. It could easily set up, given the common 20% miss chance, and even if you did hit with a super effective ice beam, chomp could just set up a sub and proceed to sweep.

Volcarona is simply checked by too many things. Saying things like dragonite and salamence aren't checks is just dumb. They wont end up being setup bait, what do you think they'll do, just sit there while volca sets up? no, they will counter with their own powerful attacks, which is exactly what a check does.

I'm not saying volca is a bad pokemon, its far from it. But it is simply not broken in OU standards.
__________________
Legitness doesn't come easy. You must be a turtle with epicness flowing from your veins...but u must not have veins, BUT SOMEHOW IT STILL WORKS

Last edited by TheBowsinator; February 7th, 2012 at 04:08 PM.
  #19    
Old February 7th, 2012, 04:40 PM
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf
Dream Evil.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBowsinator View Post
You can't compare ho-oh to volca when considering the SR weakness. Ho-oh's stats more than make it up, which is why he even does so good in ubers. Volca's stats do not make up the stealth rock weakness; pretty much one more attack and it's dead.

Why dont they make up for its stats ? Ho-Oh cant outrun the whole metagame, Ho-Oh doesnt get a stat boosting move outside Calm Mind. Volc has better resistances and more of them. o_o

And rock types ARE specially bulky in sand, which is a very common weather. Pretty much rain and sand screw volca over.

Yeah the few viable ones, plus as i said Dug is common on sand teams to beat basically all of Volcs checks which includes Tyranitar so good luck keeping sand up.

lets back up our statements with damage calcs please


252SpAtk Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 26% chance to 2HKO. <--- Not guaranteed 3hko at all, thats more often than not a 2hko and thats unboosted...lol.

252SpAtk Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Rain vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 16% - 19% (55 - 66 HP). Guaranteed 7HKO. <--- So we need to run things like Gyarados in the rain....i see where this is going.. :/

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 74% - 87% (247 - 291 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. <--OHKO with rocks up, yay.

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Rain vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 25% - 29% (83 - 98 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. <---See previous @ Gyarados in rain.

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 0HP/4SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 26% chance to 2HKO. <---I doubt neutral weather will ever be the case, after all Volc is the posterboy of sun teams and who would run no weather @ volc team.

No. +1 fire blast does NOT KO without rocks up. Though rocks are commonly up. <--- So why are you trying to use it as a Volc isnt uber argument when i can quite easily say "but it removes those Volc checks" lol. Double standard ?

I didn't calc other pokemon, but compare gyardos's bulk to dragonites. It will obviously do less damage.

76.8% - 90.4% lol

Though it would KO salamence. Terrakion does not need a scarf btw. It can take the hit all day and just counter with stone edge. Also, who said that sun will be up 100% of the time.

0/0 Terra takes 83.9% - 98.8% from +1 Fire Blast in sun. Shaky consider thats pretty much a OHKo with any prior damage, even SR.

Also, note that was FIRE BLAST. Fiery Dance is the more commonly used alternative, and if it isn't set up, lol it wont do anything. <---Fire Blast is better as shown by these calcs, Fiery Dance is far too weak. And really ? "If it isnt set up" is a bad argument. It has Quiver Dance on the set for a reason.

Gyara easily revenges with waterfall. Lets check out the other pokemon you said weren't checks. <---Yeah it revenge kills how when its OHKO'd with Rocks up ?

Also, that was non-bulky gyara. Here's max HP gyarados, +1, and in Sun (its pretty common)

252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/0SpDef Gyarados (Neutral): 62% - 74% (248 - 292 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. <--- Bulkydos doesnt run max hp, it runs 156 and it still takes insane damage (67% - 78.9%), once again shaky as hell. The only ones who run Max HP are rest talker Dos and they cant do squat to Volca with Waterfall in the sun or lol Roar ? All that has done is weakened Gyarados and made it easier to get past later in the match.

Consider all the other pokemon; in sand, rock types have doubled special defense. and sand is extremely common, meaning that a whole bunch of rock types can now take the attack decently. <-- If they arent running Dugtrio on their sun team to auto remove Tyranitar.

I also like how you say that DRAGONITE is not a check to volca. Not only can dragonite end up setting up on its own with dragon dance and kill it with stone edge or earth-quake or something, but it can also phaze if it has dragon tail.

Its not a good check. How can you set up when you get Ko'd with rocks up ? Even if Nite comes in on a QD, takes hit and DD's its still slower so its just KO'd next turn.

Volcarona is simply checked by too many things. Saying things like dragonite and salamence aren't checks is just dumb.

They arent very good checks, i really dont see how taking 80%+ is stopping Volc sweeping tbh. That just helps my argument because they take near fatal damage and all it takes is SR or one previous hit then they lose.

They wont end up being setup bait, what do you think they'll do, just sit there while volca sets up? no, they will counter with their own powerful attacks, which is exactly what a check does.

No they will come in on QD, take SR damage and get KO'd next turn lol. Pokes is not a 1 vs 1 metagame.

Yeaaaaaaaaaah bold @@@@@@@@@
__________________
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.

Last edited by Dark Azelf; February 7th, 2012 at 04:48 PM.
  #20    
Old February 8th, 2012, 01:17 PM
TheBowsinator's Avatar
TheBowsinator
Pi Lieker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 16
Gender: Male
more checks -.-

Jellicent - The typing and access to taunt and toxic
Bliss + Chans - can toxic / t-wave, crippling the moth, and also takes hit all day.

In the team preview, you can see that they have a volca; so you have to prepare for it. Use stealth rocks early, try to predict the switches, etc.

If volca sweeps turn, your team sucks.

With the duggy argument, you can also say duggy makes ninetales lose by trapping it.

Dugtrio can't even come in on tyranitar safely. Pretty much all of its moves at least 2hko it. Inb4 sash + reversal argument.

Saying dugtrio takes out all of volca's checks is a bit of a stretch. You can easily KO it on a predicted switch or something of the like. Stealth rocks are the bain of sun teams, and its not that hard to get them set up, just use team preview, and if it will make things easier, come in and set up as close to turn 1 as you can.

All right, one of my friends, Eternal, is probably one of the most experienced Wifi OU player. I asked him for his thoughts.

Spoiler:
[4:08:32 PM] Eternal: and it sash + reversals
[4:08:39 PM] Eternal: in that case, you also need to put rocks up
[4:08:49 PM] Eternal: rocks is the #1 weakness to sun team
[4:08:55 PM] Eternal: and it's not hard putting rocks up
[4:08:57 PM] Eternal: against sun teams
[4:09:13 PM] Eternal: and it's not hard to disallow common spinners in the sun
[4:09:18 PM] Eternal: like forretress, donphan, hitmontop
[4:09:22 PM] Eternal: from spinning
[4:09:38 PM] Eternal: none of them can recover
[4:09:43 PM] Eternal: so you just have to weaken them
[4:09:53 PM] Eternal: and keep putting up rocks
[401 PM] Eternal: and you block the sun with sandstorm or rain
[413 PM] Eternal: if dugtrio beats your ttar
[420 PM] Eternal: then you lost because you got outpredicted

[433 PM] Eternal: not because Volcarona is broken
[441 PM] Eternal: and even with the sandstorm
[445 PM] Eternal: winning isn't impossible

Spoiler:
[447 PM] Eternal: you need to use that Pokemon yourself
[459 PM] Eternal: and I bet none of the people arguing on Pokecommunity
[407 PM] Eternal: have attained a nice rating
[410 PM] Eternal: abusing Volcarona

Spoiler:
[424 PM] Eternal: Dragonite
[427 PM] Eternal: or Terrakion
[434 PM] Eternal: find it really easy to sweep teams
[438 PM] Eternal: compared to Volc
[449 PM] Eternal: Volcarona requires a lot of back up
[451 PM] Eternal: like Dugtrio
[454 PM] Eternal: spinner
[405 PM] Eternal: all these requirements
[411 PM] Eternal: weaken your team's synergy
[416 PM] Eternal: and limits what you can use


Volca isn't broken. It's top tier at the most, but not broken. It is checked simply by too many pokemon, and even common walls can stop it. It wont always have sun up, and without sun, it just can stomp through its many checks.

Just an afterthought, but why don't people think dragonite is broken? It's probably the most abusive pokemon atm.
__________________
Legitness doesn't come easy. You must be a turtle with epicness flowing from your veins...but u must not have veins, BUT SOMEHOW IT STILL WORKS
  #21    
Old February 8th, 2012, 02:04 PM
Cycle's Avatar
Cycle
Trainer
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Nature: Jolly
Sorry, but "Eternal said it" does not make your arguement stronger

anyways, jellicent will never beat volcarona because Jellicent takes >35% from bug buzz (and thats not even a fire blast)

Chans+Bliss: allow me to show you +1 LO fire blast

specially defensive blissey (252/252 +spdef lol): 607 Atk vs 405 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 376 - 444 (52.66% - 62.18%)

standard chansey (252/0 neutral nature): 607 Atk vs 369 Def & 704 HP (120 Base Power): 411 - 484 (58.38% - 68.75%)

If you run ttar, then you are probably running sr on it since most people use that sucky mixtar lol

alright so lets just assume you take out ttar to counter latios/latias/insert psychic type here. So lets just assume that you get rocks up with oh, lets just say bronzong. I get a free switch in to 'Top and can use rapid spin. Now you have to set up rocks again, or else ttar becomes dead bait for the rest of the game. literally. So either you bring in Zong again (which is setup bait for a hell lot of the meta) or you let the sun stay up for the whole game. Anyways, I won't use Dugtrio as my arguement, I'll use Wobbufett.

Lets take your terrakion again, now heres your stone edge calc against Wobbufett

scarf terrakion: 357 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 250 (39.96% - 47.35%)

You need sr to 2hko and even with it you don't have a full chance. On the other hand, I just got rid of your counter and now I can plow through your team with volcarona. Also, cb terrakion doesnt cut it because +1 fire blast ohkos lol.

Now lets take dragonite and gyarados!!

dragonite +1 bulky outrage: 472 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (120 Base Power): 336 - 396 (63.64% - 75.00%)

beautiful, you dd on one turn and attack me the next and now you're dead. Have fun, I just got rid of your counter. Bulky Multi scale because otherwise you lose to +1 fire blast.

Gyarados:523 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (80 Base Power): 249 - 294 (47.16% - 55.68%)

+1 bulky waterfall does around that much, not exact but should be pretty close

anyways, as you see, all of your checks are dead. Wat do? get swept? ya



seriously, try volcarona with wobbuffet (god i hate spelling that) and you will see how easy it is to abuse.
__________________
  #22    
Old February 8th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Exile's Avatar
Exile
blvck haze 2001
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Rayners Lane
Gender: Male
Nature: Adamant
Guys, you can't compare Volcarona to Garchomp. Garchomp got banned because of Sand Veil BS and not because of its sweeping prowess. I'd rather face a +2 Chomp than a +2/+2/+2 Volcarona, since for one thing Chomp can be revenged killed easier since it isn't boosting its speed, and Garchomp's STAB isn't powered up by weather, so much so that it can beat "counters" like Gyara [albeit it can use Sand Veil to hax its way past counters, but that's unrelated]. Anyways, I'm on the fence about Volcarona, but some of Eternal's sentiments actually make me lead towards it being uber.

Quote:
Jellicent - The typing and access to taunt and toxic
Bliss + Chans - can toxic / t-wave, crippling the moth, and also takes hit all day.
ChestoRest Volcarona can usually beat the latter in sun and can probably beat Jelli too since most run no SpD EVs. Plus, using Toxic on Jellicent opens it up to a bunch of other mons, such as Ferro and Ttar, so you're essentially compromising the ability to have a good matchup against a ton of mons to get a good matchup against one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal
Dragonite
Dragonite is so underwhelming its ridiculous. Non EQ-Versions are usually stalled out by Toxic Heatran, Tangrowth destroys Bulky DD, as does Taunt Gliscor if they have Dragon Claw. Toxic in general beats it if you can get past lum. Dragonite is easily phazed and unlike Volcarona, many Dragonite users don't carry a spinner to get rid of SR. Quag straight up beats it if it doesn't crit and full offensive versions end up losing to stuff like Hippowdon or Skarm. CB Nite is probably the best set since it can 2HKO stuff that Bulky DD wouldn't be able to get through which can allow you to rip holes in a team effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal
Terrakion
Tangrowth almost always beats it with Giga Drain and can take a +2 CC, Scizor can revenge easily, as can any Scarfer with SE STAB. Gliscor and Hippowdon beat non-balloon versions. Quagsire wins 1 on 1.

Also, not losing the weather war isn't as easy as "Don't let Ttar [or Tran if you rely on that to beat sun] get beaten by Dugtrio". Dugtrio essentially scares them into not switching in, allowing sun to reign free as if you didn't even have a TTar on your team. Ttar doesn't want to switch in on Infernape or any of the grass type sun abusers, so any smart opponent will probably know when its safe for you to get TTar in, since the opportunities are few and far between. Sure, Volc has counters in Gyarados, Blissey and Dragonite, but sun allows it to pretty much bypass the first two, and HP Ground can let it beat Heatran [although using ChestoRest along with Duggy is generally more effective], so you're pretty much limited to something like SPDef Stone Edge Dnite or a Scarfer.
__________________

paired to kaori & vrai

Last edited by Exile; February 9th, 2012 at 01:16 PM.
  #23    
Old February 8th, 2012, 03:11 PM
TheBowsinator's Avatar
TheBowsinator
Pi Lieker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 16
Gender: Male
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cycle View Post
Sorry, but "Eternal said it" does not make your arguement stronger


anyways, jellicent will never beat volcarona because Jellicent takes >35% from bug buzz (and thats not even a fire blast)

[B]252SpAtk Life Orb Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Water Absorb Jellicent (Neutral): 33% - 40% (137 - 162 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. | and that is fire blast. now look at bug buzz. please back up your statements with calcs. use toxic. Use recover. yay.

Chans+Bliss: allow me to show you +1 LO fire blast

specially defensive blissey (252/252 +spdef lol): 607 Atk vs 405 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 376 - 444 (52.66% - 62.18%)

standard chansey (252/0 neutral nature): 607 Atk vs 369 Def & 704 HP (120 Base Power): 411 - 484 (58.38% - 68.75%)

Here's what i got- 252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Blissey (Neutral): 46% - 54% (331 - 391 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 15% chance to 2HKO. | barely 2hko's. In that time, you can para it, toxic, then procede to recover. lol
[B]252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Blissey (+SpDef): 35% - 41% (253 - 297 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. | Not that anyone would use this, but its much less than what you said it would be.

If you run ttar, then you are probably running sr on it since most people use that sucky mixtar lol

alright so lets just assume you take out ttar to counter latios/latias/insert psychic type here. So lets just assume that you get rocks up with oh, lets just say bronzong. I get a free switch in to 'Top and can use rapid spin. Now you have to set up rocks again, or else ttar becomes dead bait for the rest of the game. literally. So either you bring in Zong again (which is setup bait for a hell lot of the meta) or you let the sun stay up for the whole game. Anyways, I won't use Dugtrio as my arguement, I'll use Wobbufett.

Lets take your terrakion again, now heres your stone edge calc against Wobbufett

scarf terrakion: 357 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 250 (39.96% - 47.35%)

You need sr to 2hko and even with it you don't have a full chance. On the other hand, I just got rid of your counter and now I can plow through your team with volcarona. Also, cb terrakion doesnt cut it because +1 fire blast ohkos lol.

Now lets take dragonite and gyarados!!

dragonite +1 bulky outrage: 472 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (120 Base Power): 336 - 396 (63.64% - 75.00%)

beautiful, you dd on one turn and attack me the next and now you're dead. Have fun, I just got rid of your counter. Bulky Multi scale because otherwise you lose to +1 fire blast.

Gyarados:523 Atk vs 181 Def & 528 HP (80 Base Power): 249 - 294 (47.16% - 55.68%)

+1 bulky waterfall does around that much, not exact but should be pretty close

anyways, as you see, all of your checks are dead. Wat do? get swept? ya



seriously, try volcarona with wobbuffet (god i hate spelling that) and you will see how easy it is to abuse.
at the first part, i didn't mean it as "oh he's pro he must be right," i meant it as, he is intelligent, so he can make some pretty good arguments against or for it; in this case he is against it.
__________________
Legitness doesn't come easy. You must be a turtle with epicness flowing from your veins...but u must not have veins, BUT SOMEHOW IT STILL WORKS
  #24    
Old February 8th, 2012, 05:41 PM
Dark Azelf's Avatar
Dark Azelf
Dream Evil.
Community Supporter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Nature: Impish
Quote:
447 PM] Eternal: you need to use that Pokemon yourself
[459 PM] Eternal: and I bet none of the people arguing on Pokecommunity
[407 PM] Eternal: have attained a nice rating
[410 PM] Eternal: abusing Volcarona
Hi im D_A and i got to #1 with sun in the round Blaziken was banned with a Volc + sun team, nice assumption/410.

What Karp said anyway, just because something resists a move doesn't mean it a counter see: Jellicent who is mere Volc set up bait.
__________________
The world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams.
  #25    
Old February 10th, 2012, 12:40 PM
TheBowsinator's Avatar
TheBowsinator
Pi Lieker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 16
Gender: Male
Just to drop another check, heatran is an amazing one (especially the specially defensive sets)

At this point i'm not really gaining much support ._.
__________________
Legitness doesn't come easy. You must be a turtle with epicness flowing from your veins...but u must not have veins, BUT SOMEHOW IT STILL WORKS
 
Quick Reply

Sponsored Links
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Minimum Characters Per Post: 25



All times are UTC -8. The time now is 01:14 AM.


Style by Nymphadora, artwork by Sa-Dui.
Like our Facebook Page Follow us on Twitter © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity™, pokecommunity.com.
Pokémon characters and images belong to The Pokémon Company International and Nintendo. This website is in no way affiliated with or endorsed by Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, The Pokémon Company or The Pokémon Company International. We just love Pokémon.
All forum styles, their images (unless noted otherwise) and site designs are © 2002 - 2014 The PokéCommunity / PokéCommunity.com.
PokéCommunity™ is a trademark of The PokéCommunity. All rights reserved. Sponsor advertisements do not imply our endorsement of that product or service. User generated content remains the property of its creator.