Atheist Alliance

[PhantomX0990]

http://www.piercedhearts.org/magiste...fter_death.htm

Purgatory; if you weren't a regular visitor to confession then you'd spend time there to 'wash away' sins.

The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of "Venial Sin" (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. When Jesus was cruxified he opened the way to heaven and freed the souls that were trapped in Purgatory. Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

CCC 1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

In order ensure heaven you need to go through with at least five of the seven sacrements. Go to confession once a week, receive the eucharist, be baptized, confirmed (if you older and get baptized they happen at the same time I believe), and recieve last rites.

There are even those that if a newborn is going to die they do emergency baptisms to get rid of original sin, but I think that is just a really old school thing? But I've seen it happen recently with my baby cousin who they thought was going to die.

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

http://www.piercedhearts.org/magiste...fter_death.htm

Purgatory; if you weren't a regular visitor to confession then you'd spend time there to 'wash away' sins.

The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of "Venial Sin" (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. When Jesus was cruxified he opened the way to heaven and freed the souls that were trapped in Purgatory. Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

CCC 1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

In order ensure heaven you need to go through with at least five of the seven sacrements. Go to confession once a week, receive the eucharist, be baptized, confirmed (if you older and get baptized they happen at the same time I believe), and recieve last rites.

There are even those that if a newborn is going to die they do emergency baptisms to get rid of original sin, but I think that is just a really old school thing? But I've seen it happen recently with my baby cousin who they thought was going to die.

Isn't Purgatory just for baptized people though? My belief applied equally to people that chose not to get baptized, that didn't have the chance to get baptized, people of other religions, and practicing and non-practicing Christians. It wasn't a "judge your dedication to God" kind of judgement either, just a judgement on if you were a good person and truly repented for your sins in life. So quite different from the idea of Purgatory. You're right about baptism/confirmation/first communion though, they all come at once if you're in high school or above when you come into the Church (I was 16 haha).

I don't know anything about emergency baptisms, but fun story: I was in RCIA with some family friends, and one of the women's father had just died. She was talking about it to the group and how his last moment were so unexpected that he didn't even get a chance to be baptized like he wanted, and one of the people replied, completely stonefaced, "Oh well. That means he can't go to Heaven." To a woman who had just lost her father suddenly. That wasn't really relevant but I just wanted to share that story haha. Sorry you can get back on topic now!

[PhantomX0990]

I really don't know off hand. I'd have to do some research.

[Shining Raichu]

Originally Posted by 2Cool4Mewtwo and PhantomX0990

"Atheists suck and are elitists" "No we don't stop assuming" etc

Alright, I know we've moved on now but just in case anybody was planning to continue down this road, that's enough. It's getting a bit personal and off-topic and we should all just leave it be because this kind of "debating" gets nobody anywhere. Though I think it's important to note that in a club house designed for any certain group of people, it is natural to expect a certain degree of elitism by that group toward those who come to challenge their beliefs. I would expect the same of any group in the religious genre; it is not specific to atheists.

Furthermore (and somewhat more importantly), I think if everybody paid more attention to what everybody else is saying rather than how they are saying it, we may all receive valuable educations in spite of ourselves.

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

Sadly yes

I'm actually quite comfortable with that. I'm more than willing to take my chances.

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

I am confused as to how we are being elitist?

Also you should read my response for 2Cool4Mewtwo in my previous post.

Meh, maybe I'm wrong. It just felt that way to me, especially considering Mewtwo’s reaction. Sorry if I overreacted. lol

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Though I think it's important to note that in a club house designed for any certain group of people, it is natural to expect a certain degree of elitism by that group toward those who come to challenge their beliefs.

Yeah, that's true. It doesn't really matter anyway. lol

[Shining Raichu]

Well I didn't mean y'all had to stop talking altogether lmao.

Here is an article I found interesting, about what it's like to grieve for lost loved ones as an atheist. How do you feel about the religious people who tell you that the death was "all part of God's plan" or that the deceased is now "an angel"? Obviously the comments are meant for comfort and the speakers have only the best of intentions, but would you react well to that if you were dealing with grief?

[Pudz]

I generally jus' take it in stride. The thing is for a lot of people? It means a lot to /them/ to be able to comfort you with their faith. I find that very charming. I've discussed in-depth my beliefs on what happens when a person dies, but that doesn't stop me smiling and accepting condolences from someone with a theistic faith. When my best friend committed suicide in my teens, people often said things like "she's with God now"; and sure, I don't believe it, no, and it doesn't take away the memory of holding her in my arms when she died. But it /does/ let me know they care, and that means the world.

[FrostPheonix]

Rise Against- Make it Stop (September's Children)

A wonderful song. More on the topic on LGBT, but thought you guys might like it.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

I saw the qoute used to say baptism is needed for heaven. I think 'born again' merely means placing your trust in god, and your spirit is reborn that way.

also saw most of you don't agree with catholicism... from what I saw, its mostly how they practice it. That happens because of misunderstanding; the church's actual stand I fully support.

[Eпvy]

Hello, I recently became an Atheist. I was originally an Atheist several years ago, but then I became a Christian again for a while... But this time I don't think there is any turning back for me. I understand a whole lot more about Christianity, its history, and other religions then I did before.

I don't know if anybody is still doing these, but I figured I would:

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same-Sex Marriage - There is no valid argument against it. Of course there are religious reasons. However, those reasons can not stand up in a government with separation of church and state.

Abortion - I know this is a strange position for an Atheist Progressive such as me, but: Personally, I just can't be for it. No matter what I see that baby as human life, and I think it's wrong to kill people no matter what. I think there are cases where it's not so black and white, though, like when the mother's life is in danger.

Death Penalty - Again, I'm against the killing of human life. So the people who will be sent to the death penalty are terrible people? So what? Make them spend the rest of their lives in prison. Killing them is an easy way out.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Well, to put my views on religion in perspective - I don't claim to know that there is no God, but I do claim that a God is highly unlikely, and for the record I think that the Christian God is much less likely than the general concept of a God, so I've pretty much completely disregarded that one.

In general, I believe the likelihood of a God is so low that there's no reason to live my life as if there is one. There is no proof or evidence. The world and universe being natural actually makes so much more sense to me.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to answer the question! I came to be an Atheist from a variety of things - Studying history, being exposed to Atheist arguments, and never being one strong in faith to begin with. I wasn't as indoctrinated as much as others, so when I began to realize that religion doesn't make sense, I was out of it fast.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
No. Consciousness is confined to our brains and is just the interaction of chemicals.

Afterlife is a nice thought, especially to me for personal reasons regarding issues I'm having in my life. However, it's just not feasible.

If there were an afterlife, I would love for it to be reincarnation - reincarnation to live another human life right after this life dies.

Do you believe in aliens?
It's not so much a matter of belief, it's a matter of logic. The universe is HUGE, and we, with our incredibly limited knowledge, have already discovered quite a few planets within the life-sustaining range of their solar system. That doesn't prove life, no, but it just goes to show. Even in how little we can see, there are already chances.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
My family doesn't know. I believe it's for the best that they don't. In regard to my friends, I will tell them if the proper place to tell them comes. Some friends know, some don't.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
They may not be the same thing, but you can't truthfully have freedom of religion without the separation of church and state. There are a great deal of different beliefs out there, and if one's beliefs become law, that's a problem.

There are places where separation of church and state can be iffy. Sadly, it seems like those issues are overlooked while something so simple that does not violate religious freedom in any way but does violate the separation of church and state (same-sex marriage) is blown up to be this big issue, never gets legalized for long, if it ever is legalized to begin with. I don't get it.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
Depends on which God... If the Christian God existed, I'd think that the world would be completely different from how it is now. Well, honestly, I think that many things regarding the design of the universe, world, and living beings would be entirely different, but disregarding that, if the Bible were true to modern day, I'd think that God would be showing signs. Not vague signs. I'm talking like what happened in the Bible. Miracles would also happen a lot more often. And I'm not talking about miracles like "I got that job!" or even "that medical treatment was successful!" I'm talking like growing of new limbs, and happening without any medical assistance.

Additionally, if the Christian God were true, I don't think all of these other religions would exist.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My family is Christian - Not Fundamentalist. They're pretty liberal on the matter.

[Shining Raichu]

Welcome, Envy! I have added you to the club

What I find interesting is the amount of people who say their parents or friends don't know that they're atheists. It's almost like it's as big of a deal as being gay, where there has to be this involved 'coming out' process. It might just be the area where I live, but... is it really that big of a deal?

[QuilavaKing]

It is a big deal.

It's basically the same as walking up to your parents and saying "Hi, mom. I'm going to totally forsake everything you've taught me, and burn in hell for all eternity. kthxbai" (Assuming they're Christian anyway.)

My mom took me coming out as gay fairly well, because I was still Christian, and thus still safe. Being an atheist would be a much bigger deal.

[Shining Raichu]

I think coming out as gay means so much more though; to a parent in particular. It means they are far less likely to get the grandchildren they invariably desire and it means the dreams they had for you of the white picket fences and the beautiful wife (or dashing husband in the case of girls) come crashing down and lay shattered about them - only to be replaced by you with another man (or woman)... in the bedroom. Which in the case of gay people is the first place a person's mind will go.

With an atheist, it changes nothing about their life, just their potential afterlife. I understand that if it goes against the values a parent tries to teach you then it's a big deal... but is it really on the same scale?

[SwiftSign]

~Join me up :3 I am an Athiest.

I seem to come to quite a different background/area to most of you, as here Athiesm is practically the norm. That being said I am at university studying Science, which probably has something to do with it.

I don't approve of organised religion, however I do respect individual beliefs. My boyfriend is a Christian, and one who is very certain and proud of his faith. Sometimes we clash heads, but mostly in the spirit of debate rather than just an argument over who is right. The reason (most of the time) I find it easy to accept his faith is that he is not what I'd call an ignorant religious person - he acknowledges scientific theories (like Evolution) and simply refers to it as God's work, saying he put that in place. When people outright deny science is when I do look down on them.

There are things in religion I simply don't understand. For example: Why do religious people feel the need to congregate? Surely a one-on-one prayer with your God is better than being dictated to on what to say, what to pray for, etc. at a sermon?

Also, from my point of view.

A Christian (or other relgious people) works hard, and is nice to others, for a pay-off in the afterlife.

When Athiests are nice to people it is because they want to be.

[Shining Raichu]

Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

[SwiftSign]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

Although him and his family are all Anglican (his dad is actually training to be a priest) they are all totally accepting of gay people though. It makes a change from 'the norm' and what people expect of christians.

That being said, my boyfriend doesn't like how the church is so anti gay wedding (although this is currently being reviewed in the UK) so he is looking to convert to become a Quaker (another sub-division of Christianity).

Apparently Quakers are effectively christians who actually do just good, their church services often revolve around conversation rather than being preached at and they allow and are happy to take part in gay civil ceromonies in their churches, which is the major draw in him converting.

[Eпvy]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

What I find interesting is the amount of people who say their parents or friends don't know that they're atheists. It's almost like it's as big of a deal as being gay, where there has to be this involved 'coming out' process. It might just be the area where I live, but... is it really that big of a deal?

I live in the Bible Belt. That's why.

In my family I think it would actually be preferable to come out as gay. My family (my parents), in particular, is rather liberal, so they aren't incredibly homophobic. However, they are very much believers, and my mom has pretty much implied to me that she doesn't think that non-believers can be as good of people by telling me that I need to date somebody who is a strong Christian. D:

I also have some friends who say stuff like "you've got to believe in something". =/

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

With an atheist, it changes nothing about their life, just their potential afterlife. I understand that if it goes against the values a parent tries to teach you then it's a big deal... but is it really on the same scale?

For a Christian, the afterlife is far more important than this life. So, it's actually on a much much grander scale.

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

I don't think many Christians go to church on Christmas. I definitely wouldn't. You're supposed to on Easter, though I haven't been to church in a few years anyway. While the church community is important, I wasn't raised with it, so I feel fairly out of place there.

(Sorry, it seems I can't help but make this thread about Christians, rofl. Got any other topics?)

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

I don't think many Christians go to church on Christmas. I definitely wouldn't. You're supposed to on Easter, though I haven't been to church in a few years anyway. While the church community is important, I wasn't raised with it, so I feel fairly out of place there.

Actually, in Catholicism, you're supposed to go to Church EVERY Sunday, as well as holy days of obligation, including; Christmas; Ash Wednesday; Easter (not just Easter Sunday, but Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and the Easter Vigil as well); The Epiphany; The Ascension; Immaculate Conception; Assumption; Saint Joseph; the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul; and All Saints Day.

Also you're supposed to go to Stations of the Cross during Lent, Confessions once a week (usually Saturdays or a LEAST annually), no meat on Fridays during Lent as well as Ash Wednesday (fish is ok), as well as observing Advent and it's Masses.

[QuilavaKing]

For us, the only holiday that you're supposed to go to Church for is Easter, unless another holiday happens to land on Sunday.

I don't even know what most of those things you mentioned are.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

Actually, in Catholicism, you're supposed to go to Church EVERY Sunday, as well as holy days of obligation, including; Christmas; (the birth of Christ) Ash Wednesday; (beginning of Lent) Easter (resurrection of Christ) (not just Easter Sunday (rising), but Holy Thursday (Last supper), Good Friday (death), and the Easter Vigil (only day without Christ, waiting for resurrection) as well); The Epiphany (visitation of the magi); The Ascension (Jesus' ascension into heaven); Immaculate Conception (Mary becomes pregnant); Assumption (Mary goes to heaven); Saint Joseph (celebration of Jesus' stepfather); the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul (celebration of Peter and Paul and their martyrdom); and All Saints Day. (celebrates all the saints)

Also you're supposed to go to Stations of the Cross during Lent (the 40 days before Easter which includes fasting and prayer and is very sad in general), Confessions (confessing your sins) once a week (usually Saturdays or a LEAST annually), no meat on Fridays during Lent as well as Ash Wednesday (fish is ok), as well as observing Advent (the days before Christmas) and it's Masses.

Bold is new stuffs.


Any questions feel free to ask. As a server I know A LOT about the Masses for the holy days.

[Shining Raichu]

QuilavaKing, question: If you had a serious partner, would you have any issue with them not going to Church with you for Easter?

Originally Posted by Eпvy

I also have some friends who say stuff like "you've got to believe in something". =/

I've come across this same problem. I've taken to replying. "I do believe in something: myself."

One of the problems I have found with religion is this message it teaches that 'without God, I am nothing'. I've heard that a lot, that you have to believe in him and his ability to provide for you. There is nothing in that message that says to believe in yourself and your own abilities - because after all, God provided those too.

I think that is terribly destructive, to tell people that God is the everything and you are nothing. I've always thought that everybody should believe in themselves above all else because in the end you're the only one that can get you what you need. Two hands working are infinitely more valuable than two hands clasped in prayer.

[Yoshikkko]

Originally Posted by Eпvy

I also have some friends who say stuff like "you've got to believe in something". =/

Wow I never get that because I don't really put it out there that I don't believe or talk about it at all, but that's really stupid. Basically that's saying that if you don't believe in God you don't believe in anything else, so with that they are only acknowledging God as a belief, which is extremely hypocritical. It's called believing for a reason too, which is probably always my argument. Can I post here when I'm not a member? If not thennn sign me up I guess? XD

[Eпvy]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

I've come across this same problem. I've taken to replying. "I do believe in something: myself."

One of the problems I have found with religion is this message it teaches that 'without God, I am nothing'. I've heard that a lot, that you have to believe in him and his ability to provide for you. There is nothing in that message that says to believe in yourself and your own abilities - because after all, God provided those too.

I think that is terribly destructive, to tell people that God is the everything and you are nothing. I've always thought that everybody should believe in themselves above all else because in the end you're the only one that can get you what you need. Two hands working are infinitely more valuable than two hands clasped in prayer.

You could go further and say that two hands working are infinitely more valuable than one thousand (or more) hands clasped in prayer. lol

I see this constantly, people not giving credit where it's due. They don't give credit to themselves, nor do they give credit to anybody else. It's always to this 'God'. But when a tragedy strikes they shift the blame. =/

I do think it's sad though. Like when one goes through a surgery to save their life, and it is successful. The family and friends always thank this God for saving that person's life, while the professionals who did the surgery get no credit. The absurdity of it is very clear. If this 'God' answered any prayers the person wouldn't be having that surgery to begin with.

I just can't believe we still believe this stuff in our modern day society. I don't mean that to be rude, I know that being religious or not being religious has nothing to do with intelligence. It has more to do with being caught in the web of religion, one that is very hard to get out of with all of the fear-mongering (Hell) and the various defense mechanisms that believers have created over time to try to cover up the issues.

[QuilavaKing]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

QuilavaKing, question: If you had a serious partner, would you have any issue with them not going to Church with you for Easter?

Like I said, I haven't gone to church in a few years anyway, which includes Easter. lol

But assuming that I started to go again, I would ask them to come with me, but if they say no, then they say no. My dad is agnostic, and he swore that he would become a Christian when he married my mom, and he went to church for a few months, and hasn't been back since. They've been married 39 years.

So, I'm not going to bother trying to change whoever I end up with, especially considering how most Gays view Christians. (Or rather, how most Christians view Gays.)

That said, I don't believe that God hates gays, and I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think Christians have misinterpreted the Bible, and are now using it as an excuse to run away from something they don't understand.

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Two hands working are infinitely more valuable than two hands clasped in prayer.

I personally believe that you should pray while you work. My mom believes that you should just pray about something, and then let God do all the work, and forget it ever existed... but even if you do believe in God, you should know that he won't directly intervene. He will send someone else to do the work for him. Why not be his messenger yourself?

[FrostPheonix]

Been some time since I posted . Don't know half of you, so just so you guys know, I'm Christian. Should help explain the motive behind any of my responses.

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

That said, I don't believe that God hates gays, and I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think Christians have misinterpreted the Bible, and are now using it as an excuse to run away from something they don't understand.

Personally, I'm against same sex relationships but really have nothing against them... I mean, they can do what they want. It is their life, after all. But I still don't think that was what God intended. But no Bible verses I kno of.

Originally Posted by QuilavaKing

I personally believe that you should pray while you work. My mom believes that you should just pray about something, and then let God do all the work, and forget it ever existed... but even if you do believe in God, you should know that he won't directly intervene. He will send someone else to do the work for him. Why not be his messenger yourself?

I agree with that. I saw this little comic once, where this guy prayed most of the time before a test and then got an F. He was surprised, but hey, he didn't study/review one bit. God won't help you if you don't try.


but yeah, I'm starting to think that we could switch topics like quilava suggested...? It seems to me that we are slowly spiralling towards a state of mind where we talk about why Christians are wrong... but, dunno what we may talk about. Maybe presence of alien life?