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  #1    
Old May 14th, 2012, 07:23 PM
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So, it seems like no one actually wants to play BW OU. That's fine, but a stubborn inertia will only suck the forum of what remains of its life. In order to stop that, we're going to shift our focus to other metagames for us PCers to play together. But we need to make sure this is collective so it isn't just two or three people pushing people to do something they don't want. So that's what this thread is for.

Basically, We're aiming for four metagames to have a tournament for in the coming ComNight (see T&E for that). That way we can get a feel for what meta(s) we want to seriously pursue as something of a "replacement" for BW OU. Any generation, any tier is up for discussion or "nomination."

Some especially notable potential metas include:

BW NU
DPP OU (post-Salamence ban)
Advance OU
RBY OU
GSC OU
200
DPP UU (post-Heracross ban)
BW Ubers

...And many more. We want to narrow it to four, so this is for a little discussion and a poll coming soon.
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  #2    
Old May 14th, 2012, 07:33 PM
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I haven't done anything else other than BW, so I'm just throwing support behind BW NU. :x
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  #3    
Old May 14th, 2012, 08:03 PM
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I dont mind, i like all of them.

Just no BW OU lol.
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; May 14th, 2012 at 08:10 PM.
  #4    
Old May 14th, 2012, 08:05 PM
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As i've stated, im down to play BW the most due to the fact it's the direction i see pokemon going in. I know the debate stands that some believe there are too many "random" occurences that are hard to calculate for. But that's the FUN OF IT!
  #5    
Old May 14th, 2012, 08:10 PM
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DPP OU or UU for sure. BW NU and Adv OU seem like good picks as well. I am fine with anything else as the last one (GSC OU perhaps?), or really anything for that matter.

Also, throwing this out here: we could try metagames we haven't played yet as Community Night tournament themes. That would give everyone a better idea of what to expect.

Edit: Oh, and we could try making our own BW standard metagame as the fourth metagame.

Last edited by wolf; May 15th, 2012 at 08:09 AM.
  #6    
Old May 15th, 2012, 10:33 AM
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I wouldn't mind playing any metagame, even BW OU. I have strong preference to BW metagames in general, though.
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  #7    
Old May 15th, 2012, 11:07 AM
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I hate to be that guy but I still think we should still acknowledge BW OU since it's the most competitively relevant tier and the one that most people start/develop in. Obviously everyone in the community doesn't like BW because it's hard to achieve success in because of Volt Turn, BPass etc or just prefer other metas to it like Zeb and D-A, but despite this I think it should still be the focus here for virtue of relevance/popularity.

Um Id also like to advocate against GSC OU; it probably sounds fun but it's generally just a stallish meta that usually requires a lot more thinking to play at a high level that most of us can/would like to exert. ADV would be neat though.


Quote:
Oh, and we could try making our own BW standard metagame as the fourth metagame.
This sounds cool, Id stay away from dw stuff but re 'testing' chomp tdawg etc would be cool.
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Last edited by Exile; May 15th, 2012 at 12:44 PM.
  #8    
Old May 15th, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karpman View Post

Um Id also like to advocate against GSC OU; it probably sounds fun but it's generally just a stallish meta that usually requires a lot more thinking to play at a high level that most of us can/would like to exert. ADV would be neat though.
Why is that a bad thing ? Id prefer a high thinking metagame rather than just putting Volc and Nitetales on your team and then simply clicking Quiver Dance or something with base 9999 attack and clicking its stab move and watching a mon die. :\

GSC takes alot of skill, true. But you dont have to play stall, infact full stall doesnt WORK at all in GSC (NYPC events are to blame for this and also Celebi not being in the OU metagame). There i said it. You try stalling in a metagame with Growth Eons, Drum Lax, JoltWak, DruidCruel Explosion teams etc. Its essentially impossible. Offense these days is the way to go. The fact of the matter pure stall is always going to lose in GSC because it just doesn't do anything lol. Aggressive stall is the most dangerous stall playstyle even then its really hard because of the aforementioned stuff.

EDIT:

Wouldnt mind DW OU or DP OU at all tbh though, im leaning towards either of those.

Lightning Zap poops on Volt Turn, Keldeo poops on rain better scarfers (chomp) etc. Also retest Exa plz.
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  #9    
Old May 15th, 2012, 02:08 PM
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I'm going to have to agree that GSC is a bad idea. I am not against skill-based metagames but for all of the "you can't win with full stall in GSC" that have popped up in the past 24 hours, the games are (from the small sample size of GSC battles I've seen) undoubtedly longer and proceed at a very unfortunate pace. Yeah, touting "skill" and all of that sounds nice, but we also want a fluid, fun game. In that respect, Advance is superior and still quite skill-based. I don't know what GSC would add to that. Advance OU is my first choice.

DPP OU was apparently better without Salamence, though the issues came mostly with Latias IMO. Either way, a lovely meta. DPP OU would be my second choice.

BW NU as well, mostly to represent Gen 5.

Speaking of which,

Quote:
I hate to be that guy but I still think we should still acknowledge BW OU since it's the most competitively relevant tier and the one that most people start/develop in. Obviously everyone in the community doesn't like BW because it's hard to achieve success in because of Volt Turn, BPass etc or just prefer other metas to it like Zeb and D-A, but despite this I think it should still be the focus here for virtue of relevance/popularity.
I get what you're saying, but if BW is in fact unpopular among the userbase and the activity base, why would we feature it? I just don't see how keeping it around because it's recent if things would be more fun with a different meta. And ultimately, that's why we come on forums: to have fun. I would even argue that it's not relevant since no one here seems to actually play it. Maybe in the world of competitive as a whole it is, but not here. And here should be our primary focus. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the argument, but it seems like it's advocating for BW OU as the standard metagame even though it acknowledges that no one seems to actually like the meta or at least not like it as much as others. That doesn't make sense to me.

That being said, for the fourth slot I really like the created metagame thing though I question its practicality. The potential is really awesome because of involved things like tests for members to get excited about, AND it's a nice thing that sets us apart.

But for now, that seems like it's a bit down the horizon. My fourth and final preference is DPP UU, as it is still a fairly modern meta in a way that, say, ADV OU is not. Or so I've been led to believe!
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  #10    
Old May 15th, 2012, 02:39 PM
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I think it would be a good idea to keep BW OU though. After all, it's the official metagame and the first one new battlers learn. It makes the forum more approachable if a user already has experience in standard play and wants to participate in CBC. So, BW OU, BW NU, DPP OU, and Adv OU could work. We could add another metagame to the mix once we have adjusted to this.
  #11    
Old May 15th, 2012, 03:17 PM
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Yea p much what wolf said. We can still play other tiers among our community since obviously we're still doing this for fun, but the second sentence of wolfs post is exactly the point I wanted to get across. I'm all good with the tiers wolf proposed as well.
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  #12    
Old May 15th, 2012, 09:50 PM
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For our created metagame, i dont see why we just dont release all DW abilities and mons and test from thereon out for BW OU/our created metagame. We really dont have anything to lose PLUS it opens up a much more diverse and exciting metagame. For example stuff like Rough Skin Garchomp and Blaze Blaziken have the potential to be OU in our created metagame. Plus we can retest Excadrill i feel as it has an awesome check in dreamworld, that being TechniLoom and Iron Fist Conkeldurr. Obviously we can test and ban stuff if its broken *coughShadowTagChadelureCough* but i dont see what the downside is to this really.

That being said id also like to open the flood gates for an even more diverse metagame with complex bans (see: Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and SS/Hail on same team) maybe thats a little much but yeah. Im also kinda want to (re)test some of the ubers like Manaphy, Lugia (this is a stretch) and Deoxys-N (also a stretch lol), Thundurus etc.

Hate to admit it but im kinda excited for the created metagame idea if it comes to fruition lol.


EDIT:

ALSO FREE GIRATINA-O lol <---was a joke. =P
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; May 15th, 2012 at 10:03 PM.
  #13    
Old May 16th, 2012, 09:54 AM
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The metagame would be more interesting with Dream World. I don't see why we can't have it. The only arguments against it (afaik) would be either: 1) without DW the metagame would be ~official~, or 2) the occasional release of a DW release keeps the metagame fresh. This metagame is being done "for fun," so it doesn't really need to be playable on the games legitimately anyway. And I think we should avoid complex bans unless we really need them. Every Pokémon that has either Sand Veil or Snow Cloak has a second ability thanks to DW, so a Sand Veil / Snow Cloak ban can be done. Also, Dream World includes unreleased items like the stat boosting berries and Soul Dew, right?

By the way, the following tournament themes will be for CN: BW NU, DPP OU, Adv OU, and GSC OU. Basically, it's all of the past generation OU tiers sans RBY, with BW NU. Once CN is over with, mostly everyone will have experienced those tiers and we could a voting poll afterwards.
  #14    
Old May 16th, 2012, 11:15 AM
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I'm entirely unfamiliar with most of these metagames, only dabbling here and there in some of them such as Adv OU or GSC. Which I feel is part of the fun in trying them out.

I'd put my vote in for most anything that isn't pre-Adv and that's even stretching it a bit cause I really hate the way third gen's physical/special moves are bound by typing instead of being bound individually. It feels suffocating when you're making sets for your pokes. I'm still willing to try it, though, because I know there has to be some merit and/or skill to playing it.

I also don't have any problems with BW OU. It's not my specialty but I'm pretty familiar with most of the pokes so it'd be easy to jump into.
  #15    
Old May 16th, 2012, 04:40 PM
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I like making DW the "created" meta especially since it's basically the "endgame" of BW OU anyway.

Quote:
Hate to admit it but im kinda excited for the created metagame idea if it comes to fruition lol.
That's probably a good thing lol.

I will say though (at the risk of being a downer), we really need to make sure that everyone is on board with this (read: not just the people who post in this thread...EVERYONE) because we have a small but VERY unsuccessful history of "oh this sounds cool" initiatives that only a couple people actually want to do. I think it's the least we could do.

Also, how would we test with such a small userbase? While I feel like our userbase issues are hugely overstated (it was never that huge/as long as the people we have are on board, who cares?) but here I actually don't know how we can run a test...it worries me a little.

Regardless, sounds fun. I'm looking forward to it.
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  #16    
Old May 16th, 2012, 05:03 PM
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Well why not make a poll to see what metagame people want as the main one ?

I already had a vague idea about the test process.

  • Set up ladder with stuff unbanned
  • post a thread with the "NP : D_A is cute" like smogon does but for our tests i guess. That way we can discuss stuff and get an idea of what people are complaining about/what is good.
  • Keep ladder up for a month or so
  • Reqs for voting
  • Get people to post noms to wolf who have reqs
  • Wolf posts a thread with results.
sparkle shimmer lol. I guess we'll just have to hype it a little to get people interested.
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Last edited by Dark Azelf; May 16th, 2012 at 05:22 PM.
  #17    
Old May 16th, 2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
Well why not make a poll to see what metagame people want as the main one ?

I already had a vague idea about the test process.

  • Set up ladder with stuff unbanned
  • post a thread with the "NP : D_A is cute" like smogon does but for our tests i guess. That way we can discuss stuff and get an idea of what people are complaining about/what is good.
  • Keep ladder up for a month or so
  • Reqs for voting
  • Get people to post noms to wolf who have reqs
  • Wolf posts a thread with results.
sparkle shimmer lol. I guess we'll just have to hype it a little to get people interested.
Are we even active enough to do this?
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  #18    
Old May 16th, 2012, 05:56 PM
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Tbh I'd say it is. I can think of like 11 that'd be willing and all of us can continue to advertise CBC to increase those stats. But I like da's idea :3
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Old May 16th, 2012, 06:05 PM
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Tbh I'd say it is. I can think of like 11 that'd be willing and all of us can continue to advertise CBC to increase those stats. But I like da's idea :3
whats the point of vreqs if theres 11 [11 dont come to my mind] why dont we just vote
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  #20    
Old May 16th, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Well because not everyone who may vote may not be qualified - since all of CBC's regs compared to PO's regs probably aren't appropriate to base any sort of voting upon. :c
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  #21    
Old May 16th, 2012, 06:43 PM
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How about this?

- Launch the suspect ladder and keep it up for around two weeks.
- Make a discussion thread about it (I'm not sure if this will be active enough but it's worth a try).
- Make a nomination thread for...nominating what to ban. Anyone can nominate. Or we could just ask in the discussion thread about what's overpowered and go from there.
- Post in the discussion thread that everyone will send votes to me or someone else via PM. Only people who have posted at least once (or more idk) in the thread will have their votes counted. This is so that we don't have complete randoms voting. Then I'll announce the votes in the discussion thread (or separate thread, announcement, whatever). Or we could use the suspect voting function on the server, but I have no idea how that works.
  #22    
Old May 16th, 2012, 07:41 PM
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I'm with Karpman here. We're too small to do reqs. Also, it's not even necessary: don't we already know who among us is good and shouldn't we be able to trust all of our regs without needing some arbitrary req formula?

Anyway, I don't like voting at all. One thing that has always annoyed me about votes is that the minority is almost always obnoxious about being outvoted and how dumb the other side is etc. Seriously, look at basically any discussion about Pokemon tiers we've ever had. It happens every single time. Every. Single. Time. And I think it is caused by the fact that the voting system itself provides an incentive to try to beat your view into someone else's head instead of actually *le gaspe* listening to what they might have to say.

Instead of voting, why don't we just come to a consensus as a community? I know there will be controversial Pokemon, but we're small enough that I think this is within reach. And if people are stubborn and unwilling to compromise (I'd like to this this won't happen), we can always just hold a vote. The only potential problem I see is a potential bandwagon effect, but it's not like this doesn't happen with any other system anyway.

Basically, I like Wolf's idea only we cut out the voting in favor of a more cooperative discussion and eventual collective decision.
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  #23    
Old May 17th, 2012, 04:13 AM
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Randomly select 70 fully evolved non-legendaries in BW. Add Dream World abilities. That will be our metagame.

On a more serious note, I personally want to stick with BW NU. It's taken me this long to understand its threats and whatnot. xP
  #24    
Old May 21st, 2012, 11:15 AM
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So, would everyone like to start with an existing metagame or create our own right now? I would rather go ahead and launch our metagame, just because I'm quite excited for it.

Edit: Or start with all of them at once.

Last edited by wolf; May 21st, 2012 at 12:21 PM.
  #25    
Old May 21st, 2012, 12:31 PM
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Well, as i've told Anti, I am SO down to give this a try! While i don't really understand the tiers to begin with, being here for the creation of this one should really help me understand it better.

As it stands, im the newbie to ALL of this, not only PC, but to competitive battling altogether. So be easy on me! LOLOL
 
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