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  #1    
Old July 11th, 2012 (10:15 PM).
kylio_27 kylio_27 is offline
 
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"Trainers" capturing these innocent animals and enslaving them in these tiny pokeballs. Forcing them to fight one another(causing physical and psychological harm), as something a sadist would enjoy.

This whole universe promotes this terribly thoughtless philosophy.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (10:48 PM). Edited July 11th, 2012 by droomph.
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Oh really then? You don't say locking our Earth's animals up and and torturing them like that disgusting? If you think about it, we're just as messed up.

This is the same as keeping a dog in a backyard - the Pokémon have been said to go to a "Pokémon Registry System". They are also transformed into energy (as seen by them turning red when being returned) so we can assume safely that if they don't have a registry to store the Pokémon in, that the Pokémon aren't stuffed into there, and are decently comfortable. Sure, they may have the Stockholm syndrome, but they're happy nonetheless - and if they aren't, we aren't one to talk, as we do the same thing, though to our animals, just with the difference that we don't turn them into massless energy.

Besides, it's been revealed to us many times that they love and want to battle (Oshawott, for example, comes out of its Pokéball to fight in battles it's not called to fight in), and that they enjoy staying in their Pokéballs more (as revealed by Ash to Sceptile). It may all be the Stockholm syndrome yes - but what can we say to defend our morality? A Pokémon battle is not a dogfight/cockfight/animal fight - they enjoy doing it, and the trainers create bonds with their Pokémon throughout the process. If anything, it resembles our sport of wrestling. It is a sport, not a stupid betting game.

If you know anything about how dogfights work, you know that there is not a good bond between dog and trainer, both ways. The dog most likely will try to attack the trainer, and the trainer will beat and malnourish the dog, as was the case with every dogfight ring busting. The dogs had moldy water, they hadn't had food in a very long time. But it's not because the trainers couldn't afford it - most of them were prestigious and had more than enough money to waste on these dogs.

However, when we look at Pokémon battles, we see a deeper bond - take Ash and Pikachu, for example - they are friends. They do not expect things in return - they are doing it to grow stronger and to improve each other. When a trainer eats, his Pokémon eat. When a trainer starves, his Pokémon starve along with him. He will try to take care of them, and they will try to take care of him.

Sure, there are trainers who mistreat their Pokémon, but if everyone was to be perfect, that - no, any - world would be boring.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (10:50 PM).
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Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
"Trainers" capturing these innocent animals and enslaving them in these tiny pokeballs. Forcing them to fight one another(causing physical and psychological harm), as something a sadist would enjoy.

This whole universe promotes this terribly thoughtless philosophy.
It's a game - there are much worse games that promote many other things. If you don't like it then you don't have to play the games.

Quote originally posted by droomph:
However, when we see Pokémon battles, we see a deeper bond - take Ash and Pikachu, for example - they are friends. They do not expect money - they are doing it to grow stronger and to improve each other. When a trainer eats, his Pokémon eat. When a trainer starves, his Pokémon starve along with him. Sure, there are trainers who mistreat their Pokémon, but if everyone was to be perfect, that - no, any - world would be boring.
^This.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:17 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Besides, it's been revealed to us many times that they love and want to battle (Oshawott, for example, comes out of its Pokéball to fight in battles it's not called to fight in), and that they enjoy staying in their Pokéballs more (as revealed by Ash to Sceptile). It may all be the Stockholm syndrome yes - but what can we say to defend our morality? A Pokémon battle is not a dogfight/cockfight/animal fight - they enjoy doing it, and the trainers create bonds with their Pokémon throughout the process. If anything, it resembles our sport of wrestling. It is a sport, not a stupid betting game.
Why do pokemon struggle to escape from the bondage of being in a pokeball then? The trainer is anxious in anticipation as the pokeball shakes to see if the pokemon will escape or not.

Combat sports are voluntary, and are not forced on anyone.

Saying that pokemon love to fight is like saying Bulls love to fight in the wild(as they do). Does this mean we have to create an entertainment monopoly on such violence?

Quote:
If you know anything about how dogfights work, you know that there is not a good bond between dog and trainer, both ways. The dog most likely will try to attack the trainer, and the trainer will beat and malnourish the dog, as was the case with every dogfight ring busting. The dogs had moldy water, they hadn't had food in a very long time. But it's not because the trainers couldn't afford it - most of them were prestigious and had more than enough money to waste on these dogs.

However, when we look at Pokémon battles, we see a deeper bond - take Ash and Pikachu, for example - they are friends. They do not expect things in return - they are doing it to grow stronger and to improve each other. When a trainer eats, his Pokémon eat. When a trainer starves, his Pokémon starve along with him. He will try to take care of them, and they will try to take care of him.
I've seen a cockfight in Portugal, and the roosters are taken care of, some even with luxury.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:26 PM).
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Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
Why do pokemon struggle to escape from the bondage of being in a pokeball then? The trainer is anxious in anticipation as the pokeball shakes to see if the pokemon will escape or not.
A pokeball works like a capsule system, it turns the pokemon into energy which is stored in the capsule aka pokeball. - Acid09

A pokeball is just a storage medium and when you catch a Pokemon - the ball does not shake it rocks back and forth because you just threw the ball and it drops so obviously it is going to rock a little bit. Get your facts right before registering on a forum for the pure purpose of starting arguments with other users.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:26 PM).
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I'm gonna try this again. Pokemon is fake, and it's not sadist when your treating Pokemon with love and respect. Yes, they do have them battle eachother but if they were truly enslaved then why don't they just run away? They won't run away because they are so attached to their trainer. Ash does not enslave his Pokemon in a poke ball either Pikachu is always out of his Pokeball and refuses to go in it. They may be causing harm to eachother but it's not the same harm as dog fighting and rooster fighting. They don't fight to the death, they just fight until the other one gives in or K.O.'d. It's the same thing as UFC and boxing. They don't fight to the death they fight until one is either knocked out or points earned. In pokemon there are no points but the KO thing is the same exact thing. Boxer's and MMA fighters also respect eachother in and out of fight. Now some trainers do abuse their Pokemon like Team Rocket for example and Silver but for the most part the do everything they can to help their Pokemon and keep it healthy.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:29 PM). Edited July 11th, 2012 by Skitty1.
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Quote originally posted by ShinyUmbreon189:
I'm gonna try this again. Pokemon is fake, and it's not sadist when your treating Pokemon with love and respect.
Oh ya I almost forgot that the OP seems to be failing to realize the fact that Pokemon are actually animated sprites that live on a cartridge. Also these Pokemon are not living beings so it is impossible to abuse them since they do not exist in reality.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:35 PM).
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Idk why he/she want's to start fights about something that's fake but whatever floats their boat.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:37 PM).
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Although to be fair the OP isn't saying that the world is real and we should care about the Pokemon. Think instead of the implications of us being in love with this world, and whether or not it promotes bad attitudes towards animals in reality when children see this kind of world on TV or in games.

Edit: Whoa you guys, chill. The OP didn't attack any of you, just questioned the Pokemon universe. No need to jump down his throat. Any continuing with this and people will be warned/infracted.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:39 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Skitty1:
A pokeball works like a capsule system, it turns the pokemon into energy which is stored in the capsule aka pokeball. - Acid09

A pokeball is just a storage medium and when you catch a Pokemon - the ball does not shake it rocks back and forth because you just threw the ball and it drops so obviously it is going to rock a little bit. Get your facts right before registering on a forum for the pure purpose of starting arguments with other users.
And sometimes pokemon escape. Why? Because they did not initially want to be in there.
  #11    
Old July 11th, 2012 (11:41 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Toujours:
Although to be fair the OP isn't saying that the world is real and we should care about the Pokemon. Think instead of the implications of us being in love with this world, and whether or not it promotes bad attitudes towards animals in reality when children see this kind of world on TV or in games.

Edit: Whoa you guys, chill. The OP didn't attack any of you, just questioned the Pokemon universe. No need to jump down his throat. Any continuing with this and people will be warned/infracted.
I am not attacking him... I am just pointing out facts (I did so in my last post).

However since you warned me I'll stop :3


Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
And sometimes pokemon escape. Why? Because they did not initially want to be in there.
Pokemon in the video game do not try to escape (maybe they do in the anime) but not in the main series game.

EDIT: you may want to read this before continuing our conversation.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:41 PM).
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Quote originally posted by ShinyUmbreon189:
I'm gonna try this again. Pokemon is fake, and it's not sadist when your treating Pokemon with love and respect. Yes, they do have them battle eachother but if they were truly enslaved then why don't they just run away? They won't run away because they are so attached to their trainer. Ash does not enslave his Pokemon in a poke ball either Pikachu is always out of his Pokeball and refuses to go in it. They may be causing harm to eachother but it's not the same harm as dog fighting and rooster fighting. They don't fight to the death, they just fight until the other one gives in or K.O.'d. It's the same thing as UFC and boxing. They don't fight to the death they fight until one is either knocked out or points earned. In pokemon there are no points but the KO thing is the same exact thing. Boxer's and MMA fighters also respect eachother in and out of fight. Now some trainers do abuse their Pokemon like Team Rocket for example and Silver but for the most part the do everything they can to help their Pokemon and keep it healthy.
Pokemon are not people, they're animals. Prize fighters compete voluntarily, whereas pokemon are forced to after being contained in a pokeball through capture.

The world of pokemon is one of monopolizing violence for the purpose of entertainment.
  #13    
Old July 11th, 2012 (11:45 PM). Edited July 11th, 2012 by Skitty1.
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Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
Pokemon are not people, they're animals. Prize fighters compete voluntarily, whereas pokemon are forced to after being contained in a pokeball through capture.

The world of pokemon is one of monopolizing violence for the purpose of entertainment.
They are not animals - REAL ANIMALS ARE LIVING while Pokemon are made up of code and pixels which are not living.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:46 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Skitty1:
Pokemon in the video game do not try to escape (maybe they do in the anime) but not in the main series game.
They defend themselves from capture. Why do you think that is? Maybe because they do NOT want to be captured? After they finish you, they get away.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:47 PM). Edited July 11th, 2012 by Oryx.
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Quote originally posted by Skitty1:
They are not animals - REAL ANIMALS ARE LIVING while Pokemon are made up of code and pixels which are not living.
What I'm getting at is the hypocritical presentation of values that the Pokemon universe sets.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:47 PM).
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^ and besides, even if it was, then hell, it's just the same as us doing our wonderful immoralities.
Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
Why do pokemon struggle to escape from the bondage of being in a pokeball then? The trainer is anxious in anticipation as the pokeball shakes to see if the pokemon will escape or not.
God knows. Maybe they don't want to? I used to hate everything that I like now, Pokémon included. so who knows? Maybe yes, the "capturing" process can be disrupted, maybe it hurts, but do realize that most of these Pokémon who are getting caught aren't going to deal with having an unworthy trainer. So maybe they're testing us?
Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
Combat sports are voluntary, and are not forced on anyone.
Exactly, and neither are Pokémon battles. As Wobbuffett said once, Pokémon follow the intentions of their trainers. That means a real bond has to be between them and their trainers, not any type of slavery, which dogfighting is.
Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
Saying that pokemon love to fight is like saying Bulls love to fight in the wild(as they do). Does this mean we have to create an entertainment monopoly on such violence?
If the animals don't mind, we can watch. Hell, watching grass grow as entertainment is just as acceptable.
Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
I've seen a cockfight in Portugal, and the roosters are taken care of, some even with luxury.
Well, you've disproved your own point. Just as Pokémon are groomed and treated with care, that means cockfighting is justified as Pokémon battles, and vice versa. Pokémon battles aren't torture, or else Pokémon like Oshawott wouldn't want to come out of their Pokéball for no reason.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:48 PM). Edited July 11th, 2012 by Oryx.
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Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
They defend themselves from capture. Why do you think that is? Maybe because they do NOT want to be captured? After they finish you, they get away.
Because that is the way the game was programmed/coded/scripted/scripting.

More info.: http://pokemonessentials.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_AI
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:48 PM).
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Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
Pokemon are not people, they're animals. Prize fighters compete voluntarily, whereas pokemon are forced to after being contained in a pokeball through capture.

The world of pokemon is one of monopolizing violence for the purpose of entertainment.
You haven't addressed the point that droomph brought up, that Pokemon choose to battle such as Oshawott forcing his way out of his Poke Ball to battle? In addition, if the Pokemon were so unhappy, they could easily knock out/kill their trainer when they're released from the Poke Ball. They've shown in the anime that the Pokemon can attack their trainer, so a strong Pokemon would easily be able to escape, but that doesn't happen in that universe.

In the end you have to remember that this is a fantasy universe. While we make analogies to animals here, just because Pokemon look similar to animals doesn't necessarily imply that their inner workings are identical. They may have a special mechanism inside their brains that bond them to a trainer, and makes them want to fight and enjoy it.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:51 PM).
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Quote originally posted by kylio_27:
You're so dense.

What I'm getting at is the hypocritical presentation of values that the Pokemon universe sets.
Nay, I say. You're looking at the pixel-and-assembly mish-mash of **** that does not represent everything in the Pokémon universe.

If you want a true view of the world, look at the manga or anime - they're a better gauge of reality. In the manga, sure, they might kill Pokémon, but never their own.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:55 PM).
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I know this has nothing to do with Pokemon but look at GTA (the game) and Saints Row, you go around killing people and stuff like that. Pokemon is nothing like that and you don't see people arguing about GTA and Saints Row.
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Old July 11th, 2012 (11:57 PM).
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GTA is targeted at adults however, as evidenced by the ratings on the box. Aren't you required to be 17 to even buy the game? Pokemon is given to children barely old enough to read, and is often their first introduction to fantasy universes. So the comparison isn't too valid.
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Old July 12th, 2012 (12:00 AM).
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Yes, as has been said before, if you're so worried about morals, why are you looking at Pokémon? Dogfighting and animal fighting, though cruel, is nothing compared to direct homicide - and there are plenty of games glorifying killing! And besides, there is reasonable evidence that Pokémon battles are completely voluntary (take Iris' Excadrill, for example. When it doesn't wanna fight, Iris never forces him to fight. Nagging, yes, but never forcing.)
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Old July 12th, 2012 (12:03 AM).
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Quote:
That means a real bond has to be between them and their trainers, not any type of slavery, which dogfighting is.
That's like saying there is a "real bond" between a manager and his prize fighter. No, the fighter is who freely chooses to fight. A pokemon is forced to, just like animals are forced to fight or entertain us.

Quote:
If the animals don't mind, we can watch.
Animals can't communicate to us intelligently. When you see a rodeo, you can't tell if the horses "don't mind".

Quote:
Just as Pokémon are groomed and treated with care, that means cockfighting is justified as Pokémon battles, and vice versa/
It isn't justified. It is still promoting violence for entertainment, at the expense of a pokemon's health.
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Old July 12th, 2012 (12:04 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Toujours:
GTA is targeted at adults however, as evidenced by the ratings on the box. Aren't you required to be 17 to even buy the game? Pokemon is given to children barely old enough to read, and is often their first introduction to fantasy universes. So the comparison isn't too valid.
No - ratings are merely a system to notify parents of probable offensive content in a game. You could be three if you wanted; anyone can buy those games, if you have the money.

I've heard of five-year-olds who play Call of Duty, so I wouldn't say that that comparison is completely invalid.
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