What do you want banned from BW OU in order to achieve balance?

[Karpman]

A lot of people think this meta isnt really balanced, but it seems like theres a lot of grey area as to what should be banned in order to get a balanced meta. Anyways, Im just wondering what you all personally believe should get banned from OU in order to make the meta funner to play. Be sure to include reasoning as to why etc

[Erosu mou]

I started to play PvP Pokemon battles on Pokemon White and I see nothing that needs to be changed.I think the game meta is perfect.Well I am used to the anime battle system and I like the anime battle system a lot better.It is weird that some people say abilities like Moody should be banned because it is "Hax."One of my top 6 favorite Pokemon is a Glalie and it has Moody and I see no problem with it because Glalie has all 80 Base stats and it doesn't not have any advantages really in my opinion over the long battles I had before.

[Evisector]

Originally Posted by Erosu mou

I started to play PvP Pokemon battles on Pokemon White and I see nothing that needs to be changed.I think the game meta is perfect.Well I am used to the anime battle system and I like the anime battle system a lot better.It is weird that some people say abilities like Moody should be banned because it is "Hax."One of my top 6 favorite Pokemon is a Glalie and it has Moody and I see no problem with it because Glalie has all 80 Base stats and it doesn't not have any advantages really in my opinion over the long battles I had before.

Protect/Substitute sets will ensure you eventually get the Evasion Boost, or enough speed to stall for the evasion boost.

Back to topic, I would like to see all weather banned because everytime I venture into OU I go like 3 games before I see Politoed and think 'oh great, yet more rain'. Gen IV battling was so much simpler, where the only weather bringers in OU were Tyranitar and Hippowdon, not because of their abilities, but because they were great Pokemon in general. Politoed and Ninetales aren't even good, if Drought and Drizzle were banned, they would almost certainly drop to the bottom end tiers.

But that will never happen because Smogon have already introduced the complex ban of no DrizzleSwim (which was when rain was peaking) . I guess in place of a ban on weather, I would like to see the Pokemon that abuse the weather best banned. Tornadus is a pretty good example, especially the Therian forme, you can spam Hurricane all day long in the rain and don't have to care about Stealth Rock because of Regenerator.

I'd like to ban all evasion abilities too, not just in OU, but in all tiers, including ubers. Garchomp is a good example of why if you missed that vital Ice Shard/Beam. To take another example, if you had the win because your Fire-Type move would have roasted that Mamoswine and it missed because of Snow Cloak, you lose what was essentially your game. Yes, if you chose Fire Blast over Flamethrower, it's not hax it misses, it's just bad luck since you chose to use the more powerful but less accurate move (high risk, high reward), but it's your choice and it backfired on you at that moment. Evasion abilities take that control out of the player's hands and essentially leaves the game to luck. Pokemon should not be like that.

Just my pet peeves, but until this happens, I'll stick to UU and below thanks.

[Dark Azelf]

I'd also like evasion based abilities banned. They do not good for the game and all they do is create hax based sets that fish for misses against counters see: subchomp and sub sv Gliscor. How is fishing for a miss remotely good for the metagame ? Its also hilarious as i witnessed battle by battle Eo Ut Mortus get to #1 with Sand Veil Cacturne and Sub SV Gliscor on the same team and getting so many misses it was redic. It would also make the game have more options i.e Rough Skin Garchomp (well when its released) would be OU and all other SV/SC mons have alternate abilities too so the pros outweigh the cons imo.

Volcarona also needs to go. Hardly has ANY checks and counters and most of the ones it does have lose to resisted hits in the sun. =\ Even when its not in the sun ive seen it crush rain teams because of Quiver Dance sp.def boost and nothing could touch it after. Even smogons analysis doesnt state any counters bar "Stealth Rock" and essentially "if it doesnt have x move x works" so its gonna cost you a mon to find out what move it has, wonderful. Sounds alot like Salamence in gen 4. Also now it gains Giga Drain to nail Keldeo and Terrakion and Roost its even more frikking annoying. Lastly, relying on Stealth Rock to stop ANY threat is frikking dumb imo if that was viable Ho-Oh would have be unbanned long ago.

Reuniclus is in the same boat. CM puts a timer on stall and Trick Room can still hurt stall badly (idek why people say TR Reuni isnt a problem for stall because it is, Psyshock anyone ? LO Shadow Ball also 2hko's Gliscor and those cute little Taunt/P-Song Psychics that most people use to stop the CMer, you also cant revenge kill with your failsafe CB/Scarftar cos it outspeeds) and absolutely dismantles offense. The only things that really stop it 100% that are remotely useful are Sp.Def Jirachi and Sp.Def Roost Scizor sort of but the latter sucks ass tbqh and loses to those HP Fire sets.

Also not really BW ou, but more of a blanket thing, critical hits need to go, its no secret that i despise them because in essence are just like moody and turn games into coin flips: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=28 <--- imo sums up why they shouldnt be part of the game pretty well, most notably this

Removing critical hits would make the game more competitive, therefore we should remove them, and that is why I voted "yes" in this poll.

[Plasmette]

Id like to see Jirachi banned.

Whenever you fight one, you never get to attack. Ever. It flinches you, and then in the rare occasion you're not flinched, you get Parahaxed.

Make it stoooop.

[DarthMetagross]

I will have to say CLOYSTER! Seriously. Access to the best boosting move in the game in Shell Smash and decent offensive stats to abuse the boosts with, 125 BP 100% accurate STAB and coverage moves that can break through Sashes and Subs in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast because of Skill Link, and mammoth Physical defense protecting it from nearly every priority move. It's pretty easy to Shell Smash with good support from teammates, and the only downsides to Cloyster are it's mediocre stats before Shell Smash (which doesn't really matter because it's not hard to get a boost) and Special Defense that equals a wet paper bag. The only Pokemon that I can think of right now that is a full stop to Cloyster is Empoleon. I used to run Empoleon on my OU team because I was so scared of Cloyster. Every time I run into a Cloyster, I lose at least three Pokes because it's a freaking monster after the boosts. It also can use many items like White Herb to stay phenomenally bulky even after Shell Smash, Focus Sash to lead with it and guarantee a boost, or just Life Orb to wreck everything. I hate it and it needs to go.

[Forever]

Originally Posted by Plasmette

Id like to see Jirachi banned.

Whenever you fight one, you never get to attack. Ever. It flinches you, and then in the rare occasion you're not flinched, you get Parahaxed.

Make it stoooop.

I don't really think Jirachi overly affects the metagame, I mean Landorus and Heatran aren't overly uncommon and both aren't really that hurt by most of its common sets. I mean it's hax based but it's not like the hax depends on whether you miss or not because the hax doesn't affect you if it can actually be outsped and actually is by a lot of Pokemon. I'm also sure the scarf set isn't the most common. Also with the paralysis, it only affects you if you're slower, again, and idk, I don't really see it as something I'd be taking into great consideration of how to defeat when putting together a team.

[dragonomega]

Originally Posted by DarthMetagross

I will have to say CLOYSTER! Seriously. Access to the best boosting move in the game in Shell Smash and decent offensive stats to abuse the boosts with, 125 BP 100% accurate STAB and coverage moves that can break through Sashes and Subs in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast because of Skill Link, and mammoth Physical defense protecting it from nearly every priority move. It's pretty easy to Shell Smash with good support from teammates, and the only downsides to Cloyster are it's mediocre stats before Shell Smash (which doesn't really matter because it's not hard to get a boost) and Special Defense that equals a wet paper bag. The only Pokemon that I can think of right now that is a full stop to Cloyster is Empoleon. I used to run Empoleon on my OU team because I was so scared of Cloyster. Every time I run into a Cloyster, I lose at least three Pokes because it's a freaking monster after the boosts. It also can use many items like White Herb to stay phenomenally bulky even after Shell Smash, Focus Sash to lead with it and guarantee a boost, or just Life Orb to wreck everything. I hate it and it needs to go.

It doesn't really 'need' to go, lmao. Cloyster maybe a monster when it has Shell Smash but it has its weaknesses. Being vulnerable to all 3 entry hazards, and being weak to Stealth Rock hinders it. After Shell Smash it gets its defense lowered by 2 making non white herb variations open to physical priority such as Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. It also has a base 45 special defense which is again lowered to ugly levels once its Shell Smashed making even one special attack probably end it. Ferrothorn also resists it running its standard spread iirc.

[tj4bigred]

I feel a certain way about hax. When it happens to me, I'm upset, but I can't be mad at the opponent or mad at the mechanics of the game. Taking luck completely out of the game makes it no fun. Pokemon aren't robots (well most of them aren't). They're supposed to be creatures and plants. Sometimes, they miss when hi jump kicking at the opponent. Sometimes they hit the opponent just right and critically damaging them. My point is, realistically, that's how it happens. Besides, most of my critical hits happen when I would have KO'd the opponent anyway.

Para-hax Jirachi is easily countered by Gliscor if it's already poisoned.

It isn't broken by any means, but I hate rain. It's just really annoying because of its ubiquity.

[Livewire]

Implement something like Aldaron's Proposal, except with Sand & Sand Veil instead of Drizzle & Swift Swim. Evasion is ridiculously annoying.

And the Therian formes of Thundurus & Landorus when they're released. Far too powerful.

[Anti]

Just to respond to removing crits, I think we should follow the game mechanics. The game we play is not competitive Pokemon, it is simply Pokemon. Are critical hits annoying at the best of times? Sure. So is Focus Blast or Stone Edge missing. I don't think legislating hax out of the game is practical or ideal. I tend to agree with tj that it adds some "charm" to the game. And so what if you lose due to a crit? You can just play another match. I also feel like it doesn't actually address the OP in that their removal won't add balance to the metagame at all, they will just remove one element of chance when many more will still remain anyway. I do agree that banning evasion abilities is something to consider though. It's not much different than banning Double Team, I wouldn't think.

Anyway, to discuss the question in the OP, I think that weather would be a good place to start. I think if you banned auto-weather (except Hail...) a lot of Pokemon would become less potent, and I think that the less powerful the Pokemon are, the more games are decided by the play and skill of the battlers and not by the stats, typing, etc. of a Pokemon. I also think it makes teambuilding easier because there are fewer threats to prepare for and by extension a higher percentage of threats that you can reasonably cover. In other words, you won't have as many Pokemon that you just can't beat, and really, when that happens, Pokemon is just a teambuilding match instead of an actual match. That is pretty much my problem with BW OU--it seems like a crapshoot of sorts. It's not that weather is broken, it's that I think it throws off the balance of the game and makes it less fun to play.

I doubt that would be a magic potion that would fix everything, but no metagame is perfect. I don't think it's a huge deal though either way because other metagames exist and you can always play those. It does suck when the most popular one can be very frustrating to play though.

[Dark Azelf]

Originally Posted by Livewire

And the Therian formes of Thundurus & Landorus when they're released. Far too powerful.

The therian formes really aren't anything special, good yes and bring alot of utility to teams but rather underwhelming. Used them and they're frail and the metagame is already prepared for them with things like Gasto, Sp.Def Jira, Mamoswine etc.

Originally Posted by Anti

Just to respond to removing crits, I think we should follow the game mechanics. The game we play is not competitive Pokemon, it is simply Pokemon. Are critical hits annoying at the best of times? Sure. So is Focus Blast or Stone Edge missing. I don't think legislating hax out of the game is practical or ideal. I tend to agree with tj that it adds some "charm" to the game. And so what if you lose due to a crit? You can just play another match. I also feel like it doesn't actually address the OP in that their removal won't add balance to the metagame at all, they will just remove one element of chance when many more will still remain anyway.

Well cant we choose what to implement and what not to implement ? Im pretty sure the acid rain glitch wasn't included in any version of Shoddy or PO despite it being in both HG/SS and Platinum. In essence we have already deviated from cartridge play. Additionally sleep clause on PO and Shoddy doesn't work like it does in game and doesn't let you Spore two mons and thus force an auto win or like in Obi's example, Fast Lum Berry Wob being faster than sleep inducer switching in, Encoring and then switching to force an auto win. This wont work on PO/Shoddy when it actually (again going by sticking to cartridge play) should.

Its funny you mention B/W is kind of like a crapshoot, that you NEED EVERY teamslots to cover weather etc. Wouldnt this be partially mitigated if you didnt have to think "well my weather/<mon> counter could be potentially critted to death?" In BW that one team member that got critted with the redic amount of Pokemon around suddenly starts looking a whole more important. Dont you think that will add, even if minor, at LEAST achieve a little more balance ? Focus Blast and Fire Blast missing is your own fault for not using the alternative moves, pretty simple really. Other formes of hax are not what my point is about. Sure Jirachi can flinch your whole team to death but that is because its ability is Serene Grace i.e its MEANT to do that, plus it has ways to be stopped lol.

You cant do anything viably about crits (lol Lucky Chant and battle armour?) is what im trying to get at. They cant be stopped, outsped, walled, used alternative moves like other luck variants can be to be mitigated.

If they add "charm" to the game just keep them ingame for bug catcher Andrew (lol) and wifi i guess too. Its no different to Acid Rain and Wifi Sleep Clause really being "chosen to not be implemented on shoddy/po" when if we stuck to ingame mechanics, by right should of been.

Originally Posted by dragonomega

Ferrothorn also resists it running its standard spread iirc.

Just a small nitpick, but Ferro doesnt resist Ice and takes near fatal damage from +2 LO Icicle Spear, i.e with one layer of Spikes its done.

[Anti]

(*maybe* offtopic but close enough. sue me)

I think we should follow the game mechanics largely for the reasons Obi outlined. Which includes the things like WiFi Sleep Clause you mentioned.

Focus Blast and Fire Blast missing is your own fault for not using the alternative moves, pretty simple really

How weak is that? What am I supposed to use, HP Fight? Now I lose Speed ties and can't even hurt anything because of low base power? I think it's funny that the very Pokemon you complain about being broken (Reuniclus) relies on a horribly inaccurate move to compensate for the so-so coverage of its STAB. Same goes for Stone Edge. Are you seriously suggesting I use Rock Slide (which still can miss at a key moment) on my CB Terrakion?

Wouldnt this be partially mitigated if you didnt have to think "well my weather/<mon> counter could be potentially critted to death?"

Not really...? Crits add variability but I don't see how they throw off balance; I don't see where you're going with this. Crits exist in perfectly balanced metagames, don't they?

[Pokedra]

I'm also against banning critical hits, Though I am pretty tolerant of hax in general I will admit I have had some rather unpleasant losses as a result of a crit, Ice Beam freeze, attacks missing, etc. However we have to remember we are playing a game which isn't 100% skill, the fact that moves can miss, moves have secondary effects and crits can occur, min-max roll damage, etc. Luck plays a big factor in every match and it's something we have to live with.

We can't choose whether to implement something or not because we are given a game by Nintendo to play, we can't create a Pokemon game. Tweaking minor stuff like banning overpowered Pokemon/abilities/items is fine in my opinion but when we start messing around with game mechanics that have been there for years I feel that is just a little too "far". Acid Rain was different because I don't believe the creators intended for it to be there, crits are intended to be there. Moody can be abused, you just use Protect/Sub until you net some evasion/speed boosts and off you go to sweep. Crits can't be, I mean yeah you could try Super Luck + Scope Lens + High CH move but people know that sucks ass.

I'll admit creating a more competitive metagame by removing crits is not a bad idea in itself, but we're playing a game made by developers and we should follow their rules. Even with crits and luck it's still blatantly clear when one player is better ;(

I feel there is only one major problem with BW OU atm

Weather needs to go, not Sandstorm or Hail so much but Drizzle/Drought. I don't want to play a weather-based metagame where everything is unbalanced. If I wanted that I'd go to Ubers, actually even that is more balanced probably. Standard should be balanced and atm it's just not. It basically forces you to run weather starter yourself or a specialized counter or else you are at an instant major disadvantage. Evasion abilities should also go, relying on that 20% miss rate to setup and abusing it via Sub is no different from using Brightpowder or Double Team.

tl;dr Crits should stay, OU still sucks, play more UU

[Livewire]

Originally Posted by Dark Azelf

The therian formes really aren't anything special, good yes and bring alot of utility to teams but rather underwhelming. Used them and they're frail and the metagame is already prepared for them with things like Gasto, Sp.Def Jira, Mamoswine etc. :(

Yeah but everyone & their mother will want to use them once BW2 comes out. Or we could just ban them for being overplayed and annoying. :D

[tj4bigred]

Why would shoddy/PO implement an accidental glitch into the battles? Acid rain wasn't supposed to be a gameplay mechanic. Critical hits are. They're a part of the game, and even if a crit costs you a game, I've had plenty of instances where a timely critical hit won a game for me. It all balances out in the end.


Motto to live by: Crit happens.


Either way, I don't like the idea of changing the way battles happen so much that it doesn't resemble the game I grew up with, where critical hits happened and sometimes ice beam froze me solid.

[FaWa]

****ing Ferrothorn
I might make a team of all Ferrothorn counters so that I'll lose, but I least I killed Ferrothorn

also lol at the poster a few above. If any weather had a huge effect on the game, it would be sandstorm over anything else easily. Sun teams are still messes, and Drizzle-Swift Swim (Which was Broken, I'll give you that) is banned.

[Karpman]

Originally Posted by FaWa

****ing Ferrothorn
I might make a team of all Ferrothorn counters so that I'll lose, but I least I killed Ferrothorn

also lol at the poster a few above. If any weather had a huge effect on the game, it would be sandstorm over anything else easily. Sun teams are still messes, and Drizzle-Swift Swim (Which was Broken, I'll give you that) is banned.

Rofl Ferrothorn. I wouldn't lol at Pokedra post since it actually portrays some knowledge of competitive Pokemon unlike the one you just made. How is Ferrothorn even broken? It's easily trapped, Taunted and forced out, it definitely has utility as a catch-all wall and spiker for offensive teams but no way in hell is it banworthy lol. I honestly don't know how sandstorm is even broken, even during the excadrill meta it was only roughly on the same wavelength as Sun and Rain. I mean all it gives now is a defense against other weather, an SpD boost to TTar and Terrakion and sand rush boost to CB Dog. Sounds like ur team got eaten by a cb dog lol xD.

I don't even get what 'still messes' means. Sun teams are extremely prevalent in the metagame and there are a plethora of sweepers that work well on them: Lilligant Darmanitan Volcarona Venusaur Sawsbuck and if you search smogon theres a ton of sun teams that have achieved considerable success in addition to having a solid foundation and objective for victory. The prominence of sun teams is one reason you see SpD Heatran or Latias on every semi stall team lol. So sun teams definitely arent a mess lmao no idea where you even got that from.

Youre obviously bad or havent played since R2 if you think aldarons proposal nerfed rain. Rain is still a force in the metagame and among the most prevalent ones. P sure this is all the proof you need

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468823
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455765
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455995
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454889
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454555

so yeah dont insult users who know a ****ton more than you do about the metagame lol

[Dr. Fuji]

hard to say what needs to go as anything would generally cause a chain reaction affecting the entire usage stats however I feel something should be done to make other play styles more viable the current metagame is all about setting up and revenging or offense with such powerful boosting pokemon there is no such thing as general walls anymore it's either a very specific counter or a check and I feel that is a shame as the game switches from making intelligent switches and wearing down counters to setting up and hoping for no revengers.

[Rain:Pain]

I haven't battled since D/P.
Back then with a proper support team, Garchomp could bring any pokemon to its knees.
Fortunately, it was later removed from the OU tier.
With the release of B/W paved ways for a whole new realm of competitive battling, I'd like to try my luck at it.
I have not the slightest clue what most of you are talking about in this thread xD

[SoulRed12]

I'm not all that bothered by hax. The way I see it, as long as it has the same chance to occur to everyone, across all your battles in theory your positive and negative hax will balance out. Plus, things like paralysis are used strategically to MAKE it more likely that you'll win. If you decide not to try to take advantage of paralysis, that's your choice and you should be affected by it.

Besides, the game is all about prediction anyway, which is basically like a human hax factor. E.g., "it's most likely that the opponent will do this, but it's possible they would do this. But, I'll go with the safer option." There's really no telling WHAT they will do, you're just guessing what the odds are and then playing them. They might switch to Gengar to absorb Reuniclus's Focus Blast, or they might stay in with Zoroark to take a Psychic.

And honestly, to me it actually makes battles more dynamic and interesting. It sucks to be defeated in the last second by a rogue crit, but man, do I feel good if I can come back in a battle despite having been critted at an important moment.

If there was no sleep clause, I'd say spore. Confuse ray is irritating but it's not too big a deal since you can switch out. Really, if you ask me, what needs to go are those irritating gimmick strategies. I'm not talking gimmick as in unusual moves or things like trying to use gravity--I'm all for being out of the ordinary. I mean things like F.E.A.R., prankster copycat Riolu, or serene grace abusers. Seriously, scarf Serene Grace Jirachi basically breaks the game. Anything that makes "being able to hit normally" into hax (because it is less than 50% chance) should go. To me, it's the same as evasion moves, but worse since it does damage and doesn't even let you use support moves. Plus, he resists or is neutral to all priority moves, and has great base stats, so he can iron head all day long if he wants to. Yes, Heatran and others can resist iron head, but resistance does no good if you can't get a hit in. Plus, Jirachi can run drain punch, and, even disregarding that, it's not as if teams using Jirachi only use Jirachi. All you need is a counter to Steels and you're done, unless the opponent happens to run a faster scarfer with a fire move or earthquake. Even electrics, fires, and waters don't really matter considering they usually don't have the defense that steels do. Add this to the fact that Jirachi can run leftovers and protect to stall for recovery and you get one bull**** pokemon.

As for weather, it bugs me how centralized the metagame is around it. But, the fact that it is so prevalent makes me absolutely love trying to beat weather teams without weather of my own. Still, the fact is that weather totally imbalances the playing field because suddenly your opponent gets a huge inherent advantage, making resistances into neutral damage and 2x into 4x weaknesses. They may have banned swift swim + drizzle, but permanent rain or sun (but especially rain) is still pretty broken since you really don't have to pay any cost for the boost (like you would if you had to spend a turn using sunny day/rain dance and two more to switch and use it again every time the sun/rain runs out).