Atheist Alliance

[HarrisonH]

Originally Posted by Scarf

Here is a tidbit of news.

A high school teacher has bragged in written form about how a student atheist group was blocked from forming at his school, but one of the students there has spread this across the internet and and fired back at how all of this has crossed legal lines and generally shone a bright light on the teacher and school.

It's clearer if you just read about it.

Just to clear up a few things: The teacher wrote the letter to JT (who is the high school organizer for the Secular Student Alliance bragging about stopping the formation of the group. JT, being as awesome as he is, worked out where the school is located and who the teacher is, and went on to tell the school that they're pretty much asking for a lawsuit, as well as completely dismantling everything the teacher wrote in this letter.


Also holy crap, it's been a while since I've been here. Hello everyone!

[Shining Raichu]

Welcome back Harrison, I remember you!

Man, I've been so distracted these last few days. I've been working and going out a ton (BATMANNNN) and when I'm not working I'm here and people are pulling me every which way... which has led to me having Scarf's post open in a tab for like three or four days and never getting around to actually replying to it lol.

I may have fallen in love with JT. That teacher is a serious dick and the problem is that he's most likely just one symptom of a larger problem. Educators need to be objective and not let their own feelings cloud their judgment. If they can't do that, they need to go work at Dairy Shack... which is where this teacher will most likely end up if JT gets his way

My favourite part of the whole article was where he said that if the school keeps jerking him around he'll release the email address and count on us (his lovelies... d'awww) to take care of them for him. I really love that. It's like.. FLY MY PRETTIES, FLY!

[Ooka]

Athiest here. :D

My parents are big into religion. I went to church while growing up until I really took the time to think about why. No government control for meh kthnx.

[Shining Raichu]

Wonderful, Ooka! I think my favourite kind of atheists are the ones whose parents are uber-religious, because they're always the ones with the best stories .

Please do tell if you have any!

And welcome :D

[Snowdrop]

I'd love to join this! :D I'm a very strong agnostic atheist, have been for a long while now. So sign me up :D

I'll only fill out one of the things for now since I'm feeling a wee lazy.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Same-Sex Marriage:Absopositively! For the exact same reason most other people do xD
Abortion: 100% in favor of legal abortion 100% of the time! Now that one's too controversial for my liking, I'd rather not go into detail why...
Death Penalty: Hm... neutral I guess. I think it's a little bit wasteful. I'm going to sound like a monster but I think those who would be sentenced to the death penalty should be used for medical testing or some other kinds of testing, or used for hard labor. xP

[SwiftSign]

Originally Posted by Snowdrop

I'd love to join this! :D I'm a very strong agnostic atheist, have been for a long while now. So sign me up :D

I'll only fill out one of the things for now since I'm feeling a wee lazy.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Same-Sex Marriage:Absopositively! For the exact same reason most other people do xD
Abortion: 100% in favor of legal abortion 100% of the time! Now that one's too controversial for my liking, I'd rather not go into detail why...
Death Penalty: Hm... neutral I guess. I think it's a little bit wasteful. I'm going to sound like a monster but I think those who would be sentenced to the death penalty should be used for medical testing or some other kinds of testing, or used for hard labor. xP

SKITTY. PINK. SKITTYYYY

Welcome to the Atheist Alliance Snowdrop :3 (Ooka too!).

We need a new discussion point, but (in the UK at least) there hasn't really been much atheist/religion news... considering everything seems to be about the Olympics.

How about:

In school Religion/Religious Education/whatever lessons - what religions did you learn about? Would you say the teacher taught them as 'fact' or 'myth'?

I'm pretty sure the only Religions I learnt about in RE lessons were Christianity and Islam - normally ending the term in a comparison of the two. Most of the teachers were not religious and so I feel we got a very even outlook, however the curriculum could do with a bit of diversity.

I do remember one time we covered creation in religion, going through each creation story. A science teacher even came in to give the science theory of creation. Which is pretty good :3.

[Snowdrop]

Pink and Skitty, two of my favorite things :D

Hm... I was never taught anything religious in school. The only thing I can relate to that is my science teacher being a devout Christian. When she taught us evolution she simply said she was required by the state to teach it but believed none of it. But we were never presented any of the Christian ideologies, thank goodness

EDIT: Also nice Calcifer avie xD

[Algo Fonix]

I'll join, yo.

So, I'm not actually and Atheist... but also not religious.

I dunno if I'll explain myself properly, but until the age of 12 my family was the 'go to church every sunday and pray about everything' type family. I was scared to death that I was gonna go to Hell because unclean thoughts are bad, etc, etc. Being... not even a teenager, I can't stress just how scared I was of that prospect. I also didn't question it.

One week, though, we didn't go to church. Actually, no weeks after (aside from like once or twice) did we go back. To this day, I still don't know what made my parents stop going to church, but they also stopped talking about it. So, I stopped thinking about it. Then, in high school I got interested in other religions and just read and read and read about other beliefs. I realized there are a lot of similarities in all these different sets of beliefs people have. It was interesting to me.

To this day I still haven't really... decided my stance on it all. Nothing has ever actually been forced on me, and I'm thankful for that. However, I just... I'm not sure. I just think people should be good to each other. We should help each other out if we can. Basically, just be good people. Meh, I'm not sure if I really said what I wanted to say... the way I wanted to say it, but I don't exactly open up about my beliefs often at all.

tl;dr I dunno what to believe so I'm just gonna try and be a decent person, but you all are cool.jpg

[droomph]

Algo yer an agnostic brah

I think yer cool too. Glad to see you're not dismissing religion like them stupid atheists (the stupid ones, mind you. Not the PC kind).

And regarding the religion classes the closest I've ever come was memorizing the Ten Commandments for History (it was the Judaism unit mmkay) in 6th grade. And also the Five Pillars in 7th grade for the Islam unit. I've forgot all of them except the Hajj, but they were cool to learn about.

All Mr. Ramirez said was "welp looks like I got hate mail comin' in." He just said that we're required to learn this, and in history classes online (yay crashcourse) John Green said that learning about religion is not worshipping them, but rather the basis for a better future. :D

And Algo if you were worried about going to Hell, I'd say you've repented enough to make it to heaven. If you just talk to God on a daily basis (we call this praying) he'll be more than happy to give you an first class train to heaven. Though if you get some guidance from church it's easier to live a "better life" and "pray" and everything. Also you have worship, and while you can worship in your head there's nothing that can beat getting lost in whoever owns this universe, be it Allah or God or some giant frog from Africa.

Now, you can disregard everything I've said, but that's just what you need to do to live "the perfect life". It's nothing special - repent, talk to God and other Christians, evangelize, sleep, go live another day for Christ. There's nothing that says you have to have a long beard and be snobby or ride bikes from door to door shoving your opinions in someone's face. A true Christian life is a fun one, but each must find his own.

Okay I've offended you enough so I think I'll stop.

And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

[Scarf]

Originally Posted by droomph

And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

So anyway, I had a comparative religions class in high school. It was elective, and the teacher was our local radical and probably an atheist. We learned about "native" religions, and then all the big ones in more or less chronological order: Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, and then ran out of time before we could get to Islam. Nothing ever really got all that deep since by the time we got to the religions of anyone in the class we'd all kinda learned it wouldn't be cool to talk about how our beliefs were right and others' were wrong.

[HarrisonH]

@droomph: wut. Well I have nothing else to do, may as well respond.

Originally Posted by droomph

I think yer cool too. Glad to see you're not dismissing religion like them stupid atheists (the stupid ones, mind you. Not the PC kind).

I suppose I'm a "stupid atheist" then, seeing as I dismiss religions because they have no evidence.

Originally Posted by droomph

And regarding the religion classes the closest I've ever come was memorizing the Ten Commandments for History (it was the Judaism unit mmkay) in 6th grade. And also the Five Pillars in 7th grade for the Islam unit. I've forgot all of them except the Hajj, but they were cool to learn about.

All Mr. Ramirez said was "welp looks like I got hate mail comin' in." He just said that we're required to learn this, and in history classes online (yay crashcourse) John Green said that learning about religion is not worshipping them, but rather the basis for a better future. :D

Yep, learning about other religions is always good. You should read into some others and learn more than just the Five Pillars and whatever else was glossed over in your history course.

Originally Posted by droomph

And Algo if you were worried about going to Hell, I'd say you've repented enough to make it to heaven. If you just talk to God on a daily basis (we call this praying) he'll be more than happy to give you an first class train to heaven. Though if you get some guidance from church it's easier to live a "better life" and "pray" and everything. Also you have worship, and while you can worship in your head there's nothing that can beat getting lost in whoever owns this universe, be it Allah or God or some giant frog from Africa.

And here we get into the evangelizing, which is exactly what you say in the next paragraph you shouldn't do ("shoving your opinions in someone's face"). Pay attention, you'll see that Algo said that he was only afraid of that when he was going to church, before he was even a teenager. Then he grew up, read about a lot more religions, and saw the similarities between them, and now he's not identifying with any. Sounds to me like he's following 1 Corinthians 13:11: "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."

Originally Posted by droomph

Now, you can disregard everything I've said, but that's just what you need to do to live "the perfect life". It's nothing special - repent, talk to God and other Christians, evangelize, sleep, go live another day for Christ. There's nothing that says you have to have a long beard and be snobby or ride bikes from door to door shoving your opinions in someone's face. A true Christian life is a fun one, but each must find his own.

Do you realize how condescending you are being right here? You're basically implying that a Christian life is the only way to live a fun life. Pretty obviously not true.

Originally Posted by droomph

Okay I've offended you enough so I think I'll stop.

Thank god.

Originally Posted by droomph

And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

Well, so much for stopping. Cool arrogance and pride, bro. Fairly certain that's one of your seven deadly sins. And for your last line: Is it really a loving god that would destine his creation to hell by not giving them their "epiphany"? In my eyes, a god like this, if it existed, is completely unworthy of worship, and I'd much rather burn for eternity than worship it.

Of course, I don't have to worry about that, because of the lack of evidence for a god like that existing.

Now, in the off chance you were joking, I apologize for my post. But judging by your others, you probably weren't.

[Bela]

Originally Posted by HarrisonH

Sounds to me like he's following 1 Corinthians 13 "When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."

I don't know if a point is made more effectively by an atheist to a Christian by quoting from the Bible. From what I've seen, that tends to confuse people who will think this as a tacit admission of the validity of the Bible. It's an appeal to authority fallacy all around that you really could do without if you just stated the content on its own, since the Bible does not 'own' that idea. =p

[Shining Raichu]

Welcome Algo and Snowdrop :D

Sorry I've been absent again, you know, life and stuff means I've only really had enough time for OVP for the last few days. I did see you two introduce yourselves a few days ago and added you to the list - I just intended to reply later and never quite got there .

Now, onto business.

Alright, I really don't mean for this to turn into 'gang up on droomph' day, but there are some things you said that are kinda out there...

Originally Posted by droomph

Now, you can disregard everything I've said, but that's just what you need to do to live "the perfect life". It's nothing special - repent, talk to God and other Christians, evangelize, sleep, go live another day for Christ. There's nothing that says you have to have a long beard and be snobby or ride bikes from door to door shoving your opinions in someone's face. A true Christian life is a fun one, but each must find his own.

Bolded the parts I took issue with. For starters, I very nearly bolded "the perfect life" as well, it was only by the grace of your quotey marks that I did not.

"Talk to other Christians" - I've never known this to be an integral part of being a Christian. Obviously for socialisation purposes it doesn't hurt, but when you combine 'talk to other Christians' with 'evangelize', to me it puts forth the message that you're talking exclusively to Christians unless you're evangelizing. And at that, I don't see why talking to other Christians is an important enough notion to be listed under what it takes to live 'the perfect life'.

"Evangelize" - this is essentially the same thing as "going from door to door on a bike shoving your opinions in peoples' faces". The only difference is that "evangelize" is the term provided to make it sound like this is a good thing to do - and more to the point, a necessary thing to do. And it must be necessary, again, if it's listed in the ingredients for 'the perfect life'.

"Go live another day for Christ" - this here is my biggest concern for people who choose religion. This is your life. This is not Christ's life. I don't see any reason why anybody should be living their life for anybody other than him/herself. If we are put here for the sole purpose of achieving Christ's ends, then what is the point of being here at all? How is that living, if it's all for somebody else? What was the point of Christ creating us and dying for us if his purpose was ultimately self-serving? Live your life for you. You only get to do life once and if you waste it then there's nothing you can do about that after the fact and then you've squandered your life restricting yourself in the name of somebody who may not even be there to pat you on the pack when you're dead.

Originally Posted by droomph

And if you're a Christian, or even remotely religious, I don't think you should be intolerant of atheists. After all, it's only by the grace of God that you're better than them, and even then just slightly - thank Him for that through your praise and instead of bragging, share the gift so that they can be better too. If they don't accept it, it's fine - God has let their epiphany happen later, if ever.

Don't you dare go around thinking that you're better than anybody. You've essentially just done what you said other people shouldn't do, and you did it in the most condescending way imaginable. The world is a complex place full of many belief systems; it is vain and presumptuous to go around thinking that everybody is a Christian-in-waiting and they just don't know it yet because they haven't received their 'epiphany'. That is smug and ignorant and beyond that I'm speechless.

Originally Posted by HarrisonH

And for your last line: Is it really a loving god that would destine his creation to hell by not giving them their "epiphany"? In my eyes, a god like this, if it existed, is completely unworthy of worship, and I'd much rather burn for eternity than worship it.

Also, this ^. But Harrison, down boy, calm

[CarefulWetPaint]

Droomph, Andy has many valid points in his post that I really think you should think about.

The main one is live for Christ. Its not his life your living it is your life, no one elses to control but yours. I just don't think this is something anyone should do, sure you can follow his "teachings" as you live your life but its impossible to live for him.

And If you for one second think you are better then anyone else because of your religion you really need to get your head out of your --- and think about what you said, think really hard about it. Believing or being religious does in no way AT ALL make you better than anyone else. This really angers me that you can even say that, it is, in Andy's words "smug and ignorant". It also leaves me speechless to how someone can actually truly think that.

Also if you know somethings going to be so offensive to the people reading it you should not post it in the first place, you should stop yourself beforehand, especially in a club such as this.

[Shining Raichu]

Well I guess that's at an end, so I guess it's time we move on.

Apparently, the Irish are abandoning religion faster than I'd abandon a screaming baby. That in itself is not shocking, but there's one quote in particular in the article that doesn't sit well with me:

There was a need for strong ongoing education in the faith, he said, with a growing need for adult religious education to stop people drifting from the faith as they got older.

That seems incredibly controlling to me. Faith is meant to be a voluntary concept, and it shows the business-like nature of the Catholic religion in general, and its utter need for control, that they would be considering ways not to promote their faith to the constituents, but to stop people from leaving it.

[Scarf]

I see your Irish and I raise you an American.

America is also abandoning religion. [Read all about it] Here's a bit from the article. The rest is some speculation as to why the numbers have changed.

Recently, researchers conducting a WIN-Gallup International poll about religion surveyed people from 57 countries.

The poll suggests that in the US, since 2005:

• the number of people who consider themselves religious has dropped from 73% to 60%
• those who declare themselves atheists have risen from 1% to 5%

People starting to be honest with themselves maybe?

[Snowdrop]

I heard people in America were fearful to come out as athiests, it's like being homosexual and hiding in the closet. I know some people said they lost their job after they came out, or people started disrespecting them. Now I don't if they're exaggerating, or...? That sounds pretty scary though. I've been hoping for a long time America's religious rates would drop.

[Scarf]

Originally Posted by Snowdrop

I heard people in America were fearful to come out as athiests, it's like being homosexual and hiding in the closet. I know some people said they lost their job after they came out, or people started disrespecting them. Now I don't if they're exaggerating, or...? That sounds pretty scary though. I've been hoping for a long time America's religious rates would drop.

It depends where in America you live. I'm in California and for the most part you're okay to be openly atheist unless you live in a particularly religious town, which we don't have so many of.

But yeah, it is a big like being in the closet since you don't know exactly how people will react. People might get all in your business to "prove" to everyone else how "faithful" they are. 'Cause, ya know, you don't want anyone to think you're a non-believer by being okay with that one kid.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by Snowdrop

I heard people in America were fearful to come out as athiests, it's like being homosexual and hiding in the closet. I know some people said they lost their job after they came out, or people started disrespecting them. Now I don't if they're exaggerating, or...? That sounds pretty scary though. I've been hoping for a long time America's religious rates would drop.

Whoah Phantom's back, everyone run.

Hello from the Midwest.

Here in Minnesota the Twin Cities area is pretty okay to be an atheist, but if you go outside the city, yeah, good luck.

My parents kicked me out shortly after I announced I was atheist after years of serving the church and going to Catholic school. Then they won't allow me over for family events, like holidays or birthdays. And funerals are outright awkward.

It's a lot like coming out, which happened at the same time. That wasn't fun. I had to have the nice conversation with my mother. "Why yes, Mother, I am an biromantic asexual and I'm atheist too." That was fun. Especially since I didn't mean for them to find out, but they did when she stalked my facebook account when I forgot to log off and read my PMs.

[FrostPheonix]

'sup guys, I finally am back. After an abnormally long vacation.

I think I had a question open from Barrels... he still read the thread? -if you do barrels, give me an affirmative -

if you don't know me, I'm about one of the only christians who reads and responds here so 'sup. and apologies if another christian frequents this now, I don't know of one yet.

And I know you guys stopped talking about droomph, so if you don't want to read it don't bother.

Spoiler:

Shining Raichu
"Talk to other Christians" - I've never known this to be an integral part of being a Christian. Obviously for socialisation purposes it doesn't hurt, but when you combine 'talk to other Christians' with 'evangelize', to me it puts forth the message that you're talking exclusively to Christians unless you're evangelizing. And at that, I don't see why talking to other Christians is an important enough notion to be listed under what it takes to live 'the perfect life'.

"Evangelize" - this is essentially the same thing as "going from door to door on a bike shoving your opinions in peoples' faces". The only difference is that "evangelize" is the term provided to make it sound like this is a good thing to do - and more to the point, a necessary thing to do. And it must be necessary, again, if it's listed in the ingredients for 'the perfect life'.

"Go live another day for Christ" - this here is my biggest concern for people who choose religion. This is your life. This is not Christ's life. I don't see any reason why anybody should be living their life for anybody other than him/herself. If we are put here for the sole purpose of achieving Christ's ends, then what is the point of being here at all? How is that living, if it's all for somebody else? What was the point of Christ creating us and dying for us if his purpose was ultimately self-serving? Live your life for you. You only get to do life once and if you waste it then there's nothing you can do about that after the fact and then you've squandered your life restricting yourself in the name of somebody who may not even be there to pat you on the pack when you're dead.

With talking to other christians is meant that you talk to them. Not exclusively to them, but it is integral. You sometimes need that support to hold on to your beliefs. But no, you're definetly not supposed to talk exclusivly to christians. With evangelize, no, I don't think you should shove your face into other peoples' doors. Somewhere in the bible it says you should talk with nonbelievers, get to know them. You should try, but don't be too pushy. That just is annoying. Maybe introduce them to the Bible, show them a book? If they respond negatively, don't push. Evangelizing is hard, but we try. Living another day for christ is a bit hard to explain though. I suppose it sounds wierd, but God wants us to have our own lives. He wants us to have friends, family, hobbies... and not just be stuffy and try talk everyone into christianity. And remember, once we die, we believe in heaven. This life is a means of storing up for our lives in heaven (thats what we believe, at least). I think I'd rather enjoy a life of eternity, rather than enjoy about 90 years, how about you?

anyways, hows stuff going? How do you guys feel about the 22.12.12 deadline coming up? I wanna watch end of the world movies or go out that day

[Bear]

Sign me up please. Atheist and Humanist +1.

I'd be happy to answer those set questions that most members have posted. Not sure if they're required, but I'll get to them in detail.

[Shining Raichu]

Hey Bear, welcome! I took over the club a while ago and since then it hasn't been necessary to answer all those questions, but if you want to, you're most welcome to! I guess it helps us get to know you better or else you could just join in the current conversation, whichever you like lol.

Originally Posted by Scarf

those who declare themselves atheists have risen from 1% to 5%

Holy crap, that is... minuscule! I thought it'd be like 10-20% that considered themselves atheist.

Originally Posted by PhantomX0990

My parents kicked me out shortly after I announced I was atheist after years of serving the church and going to Catholic school. Then they won't allow me over for family events, like holidays or birthdays. And funerals are outright awkward.

Out of curiosity, how did that even go down? Did you admit to it and then they just said "fine, leave"? I just... I have a really hard time imagining how a parent could do that to their child. They say that it's the most unbreakable love that parents have for their children, so I don't understand how people could choose their religion over their own children.

That's what's kind of twisted about the notion of being tested in this life for the afterlife. People are gunning so hard for a spot in Heaven that they would sacrifice their own child for it. It's so selfish. Don't put a child in this world if you're not prepared to stand by him/her no matter what.

Originally Posted by FrostPhoenix

This life is a means of storing up for our lives in heaven (thats what we believe, at least). I think I'd rather enjoy a life of eternity, rather than enjoy about 90 years, how about you?

Yeah, an eternal life would be nice, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the life I know I have for the presumption of another beyond the grave. It also doesn't make sense. What is the point of all of this, in the end? Think from Jesus's perspective for a second. Why would you create a world with billions of people in it and drop some vague hints at your own existence just to see how many follow you and how many reject you, and base whether they get to come back home and meet you on their performance?

Is it like, a huge cosmic social experiment? Is Jesus bored and just wants to play his own version of The Sims? What is the whole point of this if it starts and ends with him - what is he getting out of it?

As for 22.12 (though I could have sworn it was 21.12, but I'll take your word for it lol) I'm pretty psyched for it. I have some lawn chairs, I'll just sit out by the pool and watch the fiery meteor shower

[Scarf]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Holy crap, that is... minuscule! I thought it'd be like 10-20% that considered themselves atheist.

Did you notice the part that said "the number of people who consider themselves religious has dropped from 73% to 60%"? That's even more telling to me. You know some of those 13% are really atheists and just don't want to admit it. At the very least, someone who doesn't even think of themselves as religious isn't nearly as likely to hate on you for being different.

Plus I think 5% (1 in 20) is pretty good for America. Religion is very ingrained here and not long ago you would be ostracized from society if you were openly atheist.

[PhantomX0990]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Out of curiosity, how did that even go down? Did you admit to it and then they just said "fine, leave"? I just... I have a really hard time imagining how a parent could do that to their child. They say that it's the most unbreakable love that parents have for their children, so I don't understand how people could choose their religion over their own children.

That's what's kind of twisted about the notion of being tested in this life for the afterlife. People are gunning so hard for a spot in Heaven that they would sacrifice their own child for it. It's so selfish. Don't put a child in this world if you're not prepared to stand by him/her no matter what.

I think it's because the fact that I was coming out of two closets at once.

What happened was my own fault really, but it's her fault too. We were at the family cabin, and my phone couldn't access the internet, so I'd been using my mother's to text a friend. Said friend said that he posted something on my facebook page. I use my mom's phone to check my facebook page, and I forget to log out like a complete genius. When she used her phone she noticed that I was still logged on, and instead of being a good person and logging me off, she read through my messages.

Where a few weeks previous I'd been coming out to my friend.. There were also messages to a group called "The Thinking Atheist" where I had a letter written and sent in that Seth read in a podcast. She was livid. I was more pissed that she read my messages!

She was more worried about one closet than the other, and atheism sort of took a back seat until the next event, which was Christmas. I was buying presents and it brought up the argument, the whole you don't believe why are you even bothering? My reply was that either A) People would give me gifts and it's rude not to trade B) Giving presents isn't really a religious thing anyways, and it's a nice gesture and C) It's my own damn money anyways why do you care? Or do you not want the new books I just bought you? From there it spiraled down and I don't even remember how it got to "FINE THEN JUST DON'T COME".

My family just doesn't understand. My mom regrets spending so much momey to send me to Catholic school, and I turn out to be atheist. Thing is a lot of my classmates became atheist too. But personally I wouldn't have traded those years at that school for anything. It was a great school and one of the best experiences in my life. She says it was the greatest mistake of hers. I understand, though sometimes I can't help but feel depressed when I think about how she took it. I stand firm in my non belief though. I reply that she should look at herself. She trurned to her god only when she faced death, and once she was in the clear she threw it away like a used rag. She's been cancer free for five years. Hasn't been to church in four.

Yep.

I was pretty much banished from my family until recently. I was forbidden from family gatherings or even talking to extended family, because I was an embarrassment. Because of my lack of belief I was shunned on family occasions; a black sheep. I got an angry letters from family and friends of the family stating how I need to 'turn from evil' and return to the faith or I will burn for eternity. Other letters said that I was never to see their children, never speak to them for fear of it 'spreading'. My cousin is a priest. He showed up at my place to talk to me. Followed by a door to the face of course when he began preaching about my immortal soul.

Here's a post from another forum from when my mom started to 'see the light' so to speak:

"My mom has always been pissed that I'm atheist, even though she's a rather terrible believer herself. She always brings up that she said it was the worst thing she ever did to send me to Catholic school, and that it made me atheist. I have to agree, but I had to explain to her the other reasons for atheism, the ass hole of a priest we had, the sexist nature of the church, the inconsistency of the Bible, the treatment of gays in the church...

Then she flipped a lid.

Apparently I'm only "bi" because of the people I hung out with in high school. Apparently it was the cool thing to do and I did it to "fit in", just like, get this, my atheism.

I started laughing so hard when she said I was only atheist cause it was cool and I was just acting it. So ****ing funny! I mean when I say I'm atheist, I am a strong atheist and I will start rants and jump in any religious argument I find because I CAN DAMMIT ()

Then I got upset. I told her that my atheism, true, has a part with how religion treats the lgbt community. But I told her that I miss Church. She shut up and listened, and it's true. I miss the music, the singing, the feeling that you're in something bigger, the safety of knowing, of feeling that you're safe. When we were in that church for the funeral I cried, not for the departed cause I barely knew them, but for the fact that I missed this, I might not believe it anymore. But the community. I remembered my church and how much I meant to them since I was the only altar server. How it felt when I helped others for church related programs and such. I explained to her that I lost a lot when I stopped believing.

Then she asked why then don't I believe? Save what I lost? I explained that if I were to act like I believed, go through the motions but not have the faith behind it, it would actually be an insult, sacrilegious, and not like I cared, but there felt like there would be something inherently wrong with that.

She said ok.

Then she started actually asking questions. Like, not being mean, but really asking questions and being curious. It as such a step forward. Then she started asking me about lgbt stuff, purely curious. It was such a step forward! That ounce of respect I had for the church in that I didn't want to be sacrilegious, it got to her. I don't know why.

[FrostPheonix]

Originally Posted by Shining Raichu

Yeah, an eternal life would be nice, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the life I know I have for the presumption of another beyond the grave. It also doesn't make sense. What is the point of all of this, in the end? Think from Jesus's perspective for a second. Why would you create a world with billions of people in it and drop some vague hints at your own existence just to see how many follow you and how many reject you, and base whether they get to come back home and meet you on their performance?

Is it like, a huge cosmic social experiment? Is Jesus bored and just wants to play his own version of The Sims? What is the whole point of this if it starts and ends with him - what is he getting out of it?

As for 22.12 (though I could have sworn it was 21.12, but I'll take your word for it lol) I'm pretty psyched for it. I have some lawn chairs, I'll just sit out by the pool and watch the fiery meteor shower

I got a bit confused, probably because I'm still drowsy. So apologies if I get anything wrong. God made people in the beginning to be with him. He also gave them the gift of free will. When man chose to sin, he effectively severed his contact to God. Jesus was then sent to save the world from sin; but we have to accept it. It's as simple as accepting Jesus as your savior, and your saved. As to why God gave man free will in the first place, don't ask; I asked a friend that, and he explained it all, but I completely forgot. And really, I think we won't really convince each other with our arguments. I believe in the afterlife, so it makes perfect sense to me. You don't, so you think we're wasting our time. And sorry if I didn't really answer your argument, I think I did though.

Also, you were right. it is actually 21 December. Seems my previous sources were misinformed . Truth be told, I'm actually probs gonna watch a bit of CNN and all to see what people in the world are all doing about it. And then maybe watch 'The day after tommorow' I actually thought the solar flare theory was convincing at first, as some NASA scientist actually said so. Then 2012 rolls in, and nothing in the news about people getting ready. I figured there might have been, so I check the NASA website and it's a hoax :/. Whoops. Any theories you guys found convincing?