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  #1    
Old September 21st, 2012, 09:52 PM
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To those of you who live in America or don't live in America I want to get your opinions on this topic. In America it is now against Federal Law to pray in school. Football Teams for school used to be able to say a prayer before the game but now if they do it they're violating federal rules. Do you guy's think this is corrupt or do you agree with it? I honestly think it's a bunch of BS because America is suppose to be a free country but you can't pray in school? It's illegal to take a bible to school here in America, it's illegal to read a bible at school her in America, and most schools no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance no more because of this. So what do you guy's think? Agree or Disagree? In America your suppose to have the freedom or religion not freedom against religion.
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  #2    
Old September 21st, 2012, 10:43 PM
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First, I think it is highly untrue, at least in America, that schools here don't say the pledge of allegiance. I've been to elementary schools in Ohio, Virginia, West Virginia, and North Carolina, a middle school in NC, and am now in a high school in Colorado—they all do it. You might be thinking of the moment of silence for 9/11 or some such, since I do recall my first hour had no such event.

Also, can you point us to some specific citings of not being 'allowed' to pray in school? In this heaping pile of crap of a video that so many have disliked, uploaded by Rick Perry, he blatantly states "...but kids aren't allowed to pray in school, or celebrate Christmas". This is BS because no school I've ever heard of 'disallows' Christian beliefs to be expressed. Rather, Perry wants praying to be mandatory from what I can tell, because every government installation that I've seen doesn't restrict the freedom of religion. Heck, its even in our constitution.

So yeah, kids are allowed to pray in school, they just don't have to at this stage.
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  #3    
Old September 21st, 2012, 11:10 PM
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You have no clue what your talking about dude. Here I'll give you more information that should help.


"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country."


Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court,
I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it "an alternate life style,"
and, if someone is offended,
that's OK.


I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex."
If someone is offended, that's OK.


I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a "viable" means of birth control."
If someone is offended, no problem...


I can designate a school day as "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess, "Mother Earth", and call it "ecology.."


I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom
that depicts people with strong, traditional Christian convictions
as "simple minded" and "ignorant"
and call it "enlightenment.."


However, if anyone uses this facility to honor GOD and to ask HIM to bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship,
then Federal Case Law is violated.


This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical.
Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except GOD and HIS Commandments.


Nevertheless , as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree.
For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical.
I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally.
I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.


For this reason,
I shall "Render unto Caesar
that which is Caesar's,"
and refrain from praying
at this time.


" However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank GOD
and ask HIM, in the name of JESUS, to bless this event,
please feel free to do so..

As far as I know,
that's not against the law--yet."


One by one,
the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another and began to pray.


They prayed in the stands.
They prayed in the team huddles.
They prayed at the concession stand
and they prayed
in the Announcer's Box!


The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America-
the Seat of "Justice"
in the "one nation, under GOD."


Somehow, Kingston , Tennessee,
remembered what so many have forgotten.
We are given
the Freedom OF Religion,
not the Freedom
FROM Religion

Praise GOD
that HIS remnant remains!


JESUS said,
"If you are ashamed of ME before men, then I will be ashamed of you before MY FATHER.."
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Old September 21st, 2012, 11:57 PM
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I believe the law is to actually keep religious activities in public schools to clubs etc, which you join on your own accord, rather than banishing ones religious aspect all together.

Not everyone, for example, in that football team may be Christian. A fellow classmate of another religion or an Atheist might be offended.

Too often people think our government serves solely Christianity, but it does not. Yes, America is the land of the 'free', but that includes every one of it's citizens. Not just Jesus' followers.

My opinion? Good for America to resist the pressures of archaic world powers. Time to move on and fulfill the wishes of our founders.
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  #5    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 12:30 AM
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"Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your Church" XD

Nah, being serious, I think there shouldn't be any laws forcing anybody to pray to any god in any public places. A very different think is banning that. I can obviously understand that it would be very bizarre for a kid to just stand up in the middle of a Maths class and start praying and that teachers would talk them into not doing it, but if a kid feels like praying during recess? Why the hell not?

But your second post is a little bit... uhh, how to say it... Do you have that Supreme Court ruling? So we can all read it and see if it really bans praying. And your views of everything being done in school being "an attack to religion and believers" ("approve of sexual perversion and call it 'an alternate life style'"- or even something as innocent as an "Earth Day"), then you should consider going to a Christian School, where teachers will be careful not to do anything "diabolical". Public schools should be fit for everyone, not just for people who believe in X religion. Public schools should present all the currently accepted views on everything, and abortion is legal so it should be explained, not hid from the kids so it won't offend the religious ones who find that act revolting. In fact, you can't decide whether abortion is right or not unless you are presented the scientific facts and some moral considerations from all sides! Hiding it or just presenting the one view is not teaching, it's closer to brainwashing.

And about the Freedom FROM and the freedom OF religion thing- freedom of religion means that a) the State won't endorse any religion, b) nobody will be persecuted for believing any religion and c) nobody will be forced to believe in any religion. So obviously the state won't force anybody to pray since nobody is required to believe in the same god- or in any, to begin with. What would a Muslim in your class think if you all -including him too- were forced to pray to the Christian God he doesn't believe in? What would an atheist say? Freedom OF and FROM religion is the same thing. You are free to have ANY religion (of) or to NOT have any (from) nor be forced to.

Also @ShinyUmbreon: please try to format the thread into paragraphs, it's much harder to read a long post like that if you press enter every three words. I'm sorry if I'm sounding rude or anything but I'm just saying it so we all can read your post more easily. Thanks.
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Last edited by Went; September 22nd, 2012 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Thank you for proofreading, Zet XD
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  #6    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189
It's illegal to take a bible to school here in America, it's illegal to read a bible at school her in America, and most schools no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance no more because of this.
I think somebody's post in this thread pretty much summed it up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
You have no clue what your talking about dude.
Just go read something other than a Bible or obtain some information that isn't Christian propaganda. I don't see why anyone here should have to conduct a Google search that you could do yourself to combat your ignorance. And really, your disinterest in discovering the truth, when it is so easy to do, really really shows here.
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  #7    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 03:03 AM
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...it's illegal to take a bible into schools and pray in schools in America? When did this happen? Have you got a source? Because I find that realllllllly hard to believe in all honesty. While I don't think that anyone should be made to pray or whatever, I don't honestly believe that they'd ban it. That's just... way out of line imo.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 04:11 AM
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I live in america, and I'm in school and we are allowed to pray and read the bible. (I've been to school in 4 different states too and its all the same)
As a matter of fact, Muslims are allowed to step out of class to pray (I think it is like 5 times a day or something). The law is that public schools can't call for the whole school to pray.

I have no idea where the junk about the bible came from, there is no federal law that says that children can not bring a bible, kuran, or torah to school. Some schools may have made that a rule but they are breaking the law.
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  #9    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:08 AM
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I'm from Australia and I apologise if this offends any Americans here but our media specifically focuses on the more idiotic things that Americans have done and perhaps because of this I find this incredibly easy to believe. I'm sorry but your country has been stereotyped.

You know a lot of governments (Including my own) tend to result in extreme yes or no solutions for their problems and I think this is a classic example (providing it's true and not just the one school).
The problem is that everyone gets offended by other peoples beliefs.
The solution is to not reinforce that any of them are right.
What I mean is, kids should most definitely be allowed to pray and read the bible in schools, just the same as Jewish kids or Muslims doing their equivalent in public areas.
The schools should not be allowed to endorse any beliefs (or lack thereof).
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  #10    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:18 AM
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For those of you calling me ignorant? Actually I don't really believe in Religion. Yes, I believe there could be a God but I don't follow religion what so ever. Second thing, I'm not the one who clicked enter that's how the article was, and third, yes it is against federal violations to pray at school or anything. It's just that teachers aren't govt. agents so they can't say what you can and can't do. But if the federal govt. took control or schools then you would get in trouble.

I also never said anybody's forced to follow Christianity. Show me exactly where it says that cuz it's NOT! If somebody is Christian then they should be able to do Christian things. You guy's don't understand that where I live that 85% of the people live here are hardcore liberals and a bunch of idiots that let it pass. The state of Illinois. The rest of the states it's still a violation it's just the govt. can't control what you do and don't do inside of school other than murderer's and stuff. Also if anybody get's offended, so what? Everybody does practices other people are offended of.
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  #11    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:30 AM
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If it is a public school, then I don't really mind. But, at the same time I don't really mind if there were to be prayer in school in an area where the demographics support it. Like... I went to school in a Italian-dominated area, so the school offered Italian classes/lessons. Other schools would not? So, if it is a school where like 95% of the population is of the same religion, I don't mind a prayer before a football game or anything else.

Here, we have publicly-funded Catholic schools in addition to the dedicated actual public system. In both systems, Muslim students are allowed to leave class and pray in a dedicated space or stay after school and use the facilities for such a purpose. Depending on demographics, I'm guessing. Because there really would not be a need for that where I live in Italy-land.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:59 AM
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I'm actually starting to think our govt. is afraid of another war so they are trying to change rules to make other countries think we are no longer a Christian based country. You guy's think that this could be a possibility?
Argument start's now. Well not argument but you know what I'm saying.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
I'm actually starting to think our govt. is afraid of another war so they are trying to change rules to make other countries think we are no longer a Christian based country. You guy's think that this could be a possibility?
Argument start's now. Well not argument but you know what I'm saying.
Muslim fundamentalists do not hate people for being Christian. They hate anybody who does not believe letter-by-letter in the same exact things they do (like any other flavour of fundamentalism in the world). So being more secular is not a way to confound the extremists- they'll still hate the US for having elections instead of letting God choose their leader. Or for having cinemas. Or for having musical radio stations, which, according to some crazy islamic groups "brainwashes the human brain with messages from the devil". Removing mandatory prayers is not going to help that, but it will help the kids who don't believe in the majority religion not feel "different" or forced to believe in anything they don't.

And, if your post was copied from an article somewhere on the internet, could you please link to the original source? Thanks.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 06:29 AM
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No problem. http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/jodymccloud.htm

I don't even get why people are so judgmental on other people religion. It's like everybody needs to know everything about everybody.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
I'm actually starting to think our govt. is afraid of another war so they are trying to change rules to make other countries think we are no longer a Christian based country. You guy's think that this could be a possibility?
Argument start's now. Well not argument but you know what I'm saying.
As Went has already summed up, it's highly doubtful that's the case.
Besides, America is up there for having one of the biggest military influence in the world overall. I'd be more concerned about America starting another war and creating new enemies for itself over having it declared on them.

I think it simply comes down to having a skewed view of equality. At the moment it seems as if the government(s) are trying too hard to make everybody happy when it'd be much more simple to bring everyone down to base level of mutual understanding.
An example: I know especially in Australia our government was making our home a lot more 'homely' for new arrivals from foreign countries and the current generation Australians were getting fairly violent from it. It may have been better if the government just let them slip in relatively unnoticed than to make a big uproar over it drawing attention.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 07:50 AM
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Here's my take on this. Yes, America is the land of the free. If you are in a public non religious school, yes I believe if you want to take a Bible to school or pray you should be able to do so, however, it should not distrupt other students learning or be done in such a way that it forces beliefs on others. No one should be forced to pray if they don't wish. In a public school, you go to learn and study things that aren't religious in nature. Religion is seperate from that type of learning. Individual students should not be bashed for their religion however and banned from praying though. However, prayer and religious activities should never be mandatory in a public school.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 08:00 AM
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In my high school marching band, we would say a prayer before each game, however if you felt uncomfortable praying or whatever, you didn't have to say the prayer or you could step out for a moment. It was never a big deal until someone decided to start telling their parents that our band director was forcing them to say the prayer, even though he wasn't. The prayer was always student led. I don't see a problem in this, because no one's forced to do it and it's not the administration making you do it or anything.

I also think it's silly that we can't have a Bible in school. If you want to bring your Bible and read it, that shouldn't be a problem, unless you start preaching it to everyone. I guess there was some problem with that happening?

Even when teachers go over evolution or different religions in class, they always say "I'm not trying to tell you to join this religion or change your beliefs, this is just in the curriculum" and that's kind of sad really. Actually having to tell your students that you're not trying to change their religion or anything is silly, but then you have people like I mentioned earlier that take things out of proportion and tell their parents false things and then it gets put in the newspaper and such. If I had to guess, there are just a large number of students going home and complaining about something like this and then parents go and complain to the administration. That's just a guess, though.

My point is that praying in school shouldn't be an issue as long as it's not forced or led by school leadership, and if you want to bring your Bible to read, that shouldn't be an issue either as long as you're not preaching it or shoving it down anyone's throat. But hey, these days, everything seems to be taken as offensive so...eh.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 08:08 AM
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Praying in school isn't an issue. At all. This is the relevant court case:

Quote:
Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe (2000)
Students may not use a school's loudspeaker system to offer student-led, student-initiated prayer.
Before football games, members of the student body of a Texas high school elected one of their classmates to address the players and spectators. These addresses were conducted over the school's loudspeakers and usually involved a prayer. Attendance at these events was voluntary. Three students sued the school arguing that the prayers violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. A majority of the Court rejected the school's argument that since the prayer was student initiated and student led, as opposed to officially sponsored by the school, it did not violate the First Amendment. The Court held that this action did constitute school-sponsored prayer because the loudspeakers that the students used for their invocations were owned by the school.
Source

You are perfectly free to pray in school, bring your Bible to school, make a school religion club. What you're not allowed to do is lead a stadium of people who may or may not be religious in a religious prayer, when they're attending for a sporting event.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 08:53 AM
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Toujours summed up how things actually stand as far as the law is concerned. People are free to pray and all that as long as the school isn't sponsoring it. So all school sponsored events like football games or dances or rallies can't include prayer unless students want to do it on their own without the specific use of the school facilities (aside from being on school grounds of course).

This is perfectly reasonable. It gives everyone a chance to believe what they want without stepping on the toes of anyone else. I can't see how anyone would be upset with this unless they were trying to impose their beliefs on someone else.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 09:30 AM
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Mm well there are Bibles in my school library... we used to say the Pledge on Mondays and Fridays but when I switched to the next school we don't say it anymore. Not sure why that is.

I think people should be able to pray or do whatever but it shouldn't be mandatory
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 09:51 AM
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Ok. Annoyed by this post. Completely. 1. ITS NOT ILLEGAL TO WORSHIP IN AMERICAN SCHOOLS ONLY TO FORCE WORSHIP!
2. If anyone told me I couldn't bring a bible to school I'd ask them if they need gas money so they can go get f'ed.
My opinions are unbiased btw as I am an atheist.

I obey the law when I believe its right. But I won't hesitate to SMASH the law when I think what Im doing is the greater good over the supremacy of our "judicial system."
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 12:24 PM
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This is perfectly reasonable. It gives everyone a chance to believe what they want without stepping on the toes of anyone else. I can't see how anyone would be upset with this unless they were trying to impose their beliefs on someone else.
I don't think purposely trying to impose one's beliefs on another is the only explanation.

I think an element here may simply be tradition or habit. They've "always" had a prayer before the game, no one's complained (as far as I'm aware), and so those who are upset are probably thinking "what's their problem"? It's a nicety that the community may have come to expect that was taken away
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 01:52 PM
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Toujours summed it up, but going to second, triple, whatever.

It's illegal to force prayer; ie lead a stadium, or even a teacher to lead a class. It is true though that many schools no longer say the pledge before school. Mine stopped around the time I was in fifth grade (I remember because the 9/11 attacks happened that year.)

BUT a student can bring a Bible or any religious text to school. In fact, teachers can teach the bible as a form of literature, as long as it's not preaching.

This is only in public schools.

If you really want students/your kids to have prayer/religion actively in their school life then you can send them to private school. I went to private school since I was 5, we prayed every morning, before and after lunch, and we went to a school Mass once a week,. plus any religous holidays. (We even had a Cardinal visit the school once.) We even had organized Confessions once a month. When I was in my private high school we prayed before every class.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 02:01 PM
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What's the pledge people have brought up a few times? Not being an American, all I could reason is the Pledge of Allegiance. But... why would schools stop that? That seems kind of important o.o
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 View Post
What's the pledge people have brought up a few times? Not being an American, all I could reason is the Pledge of Allegiance. But... why would schools stop that? That seems kind of important o.o
That'd be the Pledge of Allegiance.

Which is, if you don't know it...

We pledge allegiance, to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republic, for which it stands
One nation under God, indivisable
With liberty and justice for all.

It's a few things that make people having objections to saying it. Here.

By the way, the 'under God' line wasn't added until 1954.
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