What came first: Arceus or Mew?

[oshawottlover13]

arceus came before mew. all of the regions were already made at the same time becasue of arceus. hes already been there and arceus made mew. he made everything in every region including the pokemon. so since arceus made pokemon and everything else, arceus came first and then mew. though arceus is in sinnoh it confuses me too. but arceus came first.

[dewdott]

arceus came before mew or mewtwo so i say that arceus came first

[Hasan]

Arceus is known as the original one. Here is my theory. Arceus was born and split into 3 beings dialga palkia and giritina. Thus means palkia giritina and dialga are arceus yet arceus's original form contains most power. If apthe trio controls time space and balance of the world already it has more power then new. Also those 3 are the only known deities as I know. Arceus is also known as the deity king as he created the others. So what I think is a deity is a god and god can do anything meaning has the power of Pokemon. Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon not gods in this case the creation trio and original one therefore new is the first Pokemon and arceus is a god born out of nothing

[MiTjA]

Is it so hard to contemplate that myths in a game might actually be just myths and not true history?

[voicerocker]

Originally Posted by Hasan

Arceus is known as the original one. Here is my theory. Arceus was born and split into 3 beings dialga palkia and giritina. Thus means palkia giritina and dialga are arceus yet arceus's original form contains most power.

This is more like the Original Dragon of Unova. Arceus is specifically said to have created Dialga, Palkia and Giratina, not that it became them. The Sinjoh Ruins event features Arceus creating one of them.

Originally Posted by MiTjA

Is it so hard to contemplate that myths in a game might actually be just myths and not true history?

What is there to suggest that Arceus isn't what they say it is? No, I don't believe the Pokedex entries are 100% fact, but I don't think they are completely fictional either. More than likely, it is a combination of both, which is where the mystery comes in.

Dialga can control time, as its legend states, though it may not be time itself.
Palkia can warp space, though it doesn't regulate by simply existing.
Giratina resides in the Distortion World, which is "the world on the other side of ours" that was described. Though the Distortion World was not destroyed when Giratina was captured or defeated.

The Sinnoh Dragons' legends (for the most part) are true. They each possess the powers they were said to possess, as far as control of time, space and such. But why is it nothing about Arceus should be considered valid? Arceus has been shown to create these dragons. Not to mention everything about Arceus suggests it was created by Game Freak specifically to play the role of the "first Pokemon" and to basically be god-like, without actually being a god.

[MiTjA]

Originally Posted by voicerocker

What is there to suggest that Arceus isn't what they say it is? No, I don't believe the Pokedex entries are 100% fact, but I don't think they are completely fictional either. More than likely, it is a combination of both, which is where the mystery comes in.

Dialga can control time, as its legend states, though it may not be time itself.
Palkia can warp space, though it doesn't regulate by simply existing.
Giratina resides in the Distortion World, which is "the world on the other side of ours" that was described. Though the Distortion World was not destroyed when Giratina was captured or defeated.

The Sinnoh Dragons' legends (for the most part) are true. They each possess the powers they were said to possess, as far as control of time, space and such. But why is it nothing about Arceus should be considered valid? Arceus has been shown to create these dragons. Not to mention everything about Arceus suggests it was created by Game Freak specifically to play the role of the "first Pokemon" and to basically be god-like, without actually being a god.

I always assumed it is like the Hoenn legends.
Those can clearly cause drought/heavy rainfall, making it seem like the land/sea is rising. This ability alone would have been enough for ancient witnesses to come up with their legend of creating Hoenn.
Yet they seem more like rampaging beasts when awakened, instead of sentient superior beings.

Same for the dimension trio. People who saw them manipulate even more amazing aspects of reality, or perhaps simply emerge from another dimension, somehow figured Dialga and Palkia created Sinnohs halves that are divided by Mt.Coronet.
Now imagine what witnessing Arceus' creation of one of these would do..
With Platinum and Giratina, there is one piece of dialogue thats interesting to this. Cyrus expects the Torn world to crubmle, as he thinks of Giratina as its ruler/creator, once you defeat/catch it, he is then surprised and disappointed when nothing happens.

But lets consider the most amazing thing we have seen Arceus do.
If the Shinto ruins are canon, Arceus can create new dimension legends at will.
However, it requires hundreds of Unown to achieve this....
Personally I think of that as a kind of legendary equivalent of breeding. Where casual pokemon require an opposite gender partner, Arceus requires hundreds of Unown.

[Rodriguezjames55]

quite honesty I believe Mew came 1st arceus is a overpowered goat

[MiTjA]

Originally Posted by Rodriguezjames55

quite honesty I believe Mew came 1st arceus is a overpowered goat

Mew is an overpowered cat embryo.

[ShinyUmbreon189]

This is actually an impossible question to answer and nobody seems to even care what other peoples opinions are that's why there's arguments all over this thread but I'm gonna give my theory anyways and I'm ready for a disagreement cos ppl just gotta do it for attention lol

Mew's DNA has genetic codes from every single Pokemon and the ancestor of them as well. But, Arceus is the creator of the universe. So the only way to answer this question is to really go into detail and really think about it. If Pokemon had a God would it be Arceus or Mew? If Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon then that means Mew is also the Ancestor of Arceus. So therefore, I believe Mew was created first. If Mew isn't the ancestor of Pokemon then who is? They say Arceus created the universe but Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon. If you ask me it makes no sense. But without Mew being the ancestor then Arceus wouldn't even exist. I think Mew created Arceus to create the universe and Mew finished it by creating Pokemon. Here's a question that I would like to know. If Mew and Arceus are the creators of both then why make them obtainable in a Pokemon game? If Mew is for say God then why would it wanna battle what it created? Why would Arceus battle and destroy what it created? Those are 2 Pokemon that should of been mentioned but never became obtainable because of what they're capable of. Mew is ancestor of Pokemon so that makes it surperior to all of them.

[MiTjA]

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

Mew's DNA has genetic codes from every single Pokemon and the ancestor of them as well. But, Arceus is the creator of the universe. So the only way to answer this question is to really go into detail and really think about it. If Pokemon had a God would it be Arceus or Mew? If Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon then that means Mew is also the Ancestor of Arceus. So therefore, I believe Mew was created first. If Mew isn't the ancestor of Pokemon then who is? They say Arceus created the universe but Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon. If you ask me it makes no sense. But without Mew being the ancestor then Arceus wouldn't even exist. I think Mew created Arceus to create the universe and Mew finished it by creating Pokemon. Here's a question that I would like to know. If Mew and Arceus are the creators of both then why make them obtainable in a Pokemon game? If Mew is for say God then why would it wanna battle what it created? Why would Arceus battle and destroy what it created? Those are 2 Pokemon that should of been mentioned but never became obtainable because of what they're capable of. Mew is ancestor of Pokemon so that makes it surperior to all of them.

Lots of assumptions there though..

-Mew having DNA of all pokemon
remember that Arceus and co were not even discovered before Mew, and even if people knew of it, the scientists making this statement surely didnt go get a sample of Arceus DNA, so at its best it means all casual pokemon, but I interpret it as having the DNA of most of the first generation at least. Any more is speculation (well we could safely add babies and evos obviously..), but I wouldnt doubt it includes casual Hoenn/Sinnoh DNA...Unova is a much bigger question mark...

-It is ASSUMED to be the ancestor
Because it seems to have DNA of all pokemon. Its a theory. It might as well just be simply an extraordinary case, it might be extending its DNA everytime it comes in touch with more species, or some other explanation..

-Arceus is said to have created the universe
We cannot deny the factuality of this story unless they added more legendaries with similar backstories (like if the next game introduced a second Arceus-like pokemon). But we cannot confirm it either, since all we have is a myth.
But even assuming it was true, how the heck would anyone ever know? Its not like ancient people of Sinnoh would have been there to witness the birth of the universe, remember they didn't exist yet.


The observation that Arceus is a mere pokemon like any other (it is limited by the same things, has real stats, a type, can use 4 moves, can be caught and used in battles.......) is a very important one.
I mean, when you ask something like "if pokemon had a god..", (of course it all depends on definition of that word etc. but) how could possibly a pokemon be the answer?

How does being the assumed ancestor make it superior? Its more like jack of all trades, master of none...

[ShinyUmbreon189]

Originally Posted by MiTjA

Lots of assumptions there though..

-Mew having DNA of all pokemon
remember that Arceus and co were not even discovered before Mew, and even if people knew of it, the scientists making this statement surely didnt go get a sample of Arceus DNA, so at its best it means all casual pokemon, but I interpret it as having the DNA of most of the first generation at least. Any more is speculation (well we could safely add babies and evos obviously..), but I wouldnt doubt it includes casual Hoenn/Sinnoh DNA...Unova is a much bigger question mark...

-It is ASSUMED to be the ancestor
Because it seems to have DNA of all pokemon. Its a theory. It might as well just be simply an extraordinary case, it might be extending its DNA everytime it comes in touch with more species, or some other explanation..

-Arceus is said to have created the universe
We cannot deny the factuality of this story unless they added more legendaries with similar backstories (like if the next game introduced a second Arceus-like pokemon). But we cannot confirm it either, since all we have is a myth.
But even assuming it was true, how the heck would anyone ever know? Its not like ancient people of Sinnoh would have been there to witness the birth of the universe, remember they didn't exist yet.


The observation that Arceus is a mere pokemon like any other (it is limited by the same things, has real stats, a type, can use 4 moves, can be caught and used in battles.......) is a very important one.
I mean, when you ask something like "if pokemon had a god..", (of course it all depends on definition of that word etc. but) how could possibly a pokemon be the answer?

How does being the assumed ancestor make it superior? Its more like jack of all trades, master of none...

Actually If Mew is the ancestor that does make it surperior to all of them because he's the creator. With Mew being creator it's DNA genetics sends it a signal to know what the next Pokemon is going to do. If no Pokemon couldn't take out Mewtwo in the movie then no Pokemon could take out Mew. Remember in the movie when Mew and Mewtwo started fighting? They were both equally powered and remember when other Pokemon tried to fight Mewtwo they didn't have a chance? So if numerous Pokemon can't stand up to Mewtwo then how could 1 Pokemon even think about trying to battle Mew?

You do got a lot of points there tho. But the scientist you mentioned is different as well. In every region there's different scientist so that means that they discover Pokemon that the other regions don't know about yet. How do we know that Prof. Oak discovered Mew and how do we not know Prof. Rowan didn't discover Arceus around the same time? I still believe that Mew created Arceus because Mew wasn't powerful enough to create the universe. But then, what created Mew? Arceus couldn't of have because Mew created it because of being the ancestor.

[voicerocker]

Originally Posted by MiTjA

I always assumed it is like the Hoenn legends.
Those can clearly cause drought/heavy rainfall, making it seem like the land/sea is rising. This ability alone would have been enough for ancient witnesses to come up with their legend of creating Hoenn.
Yet they seem more like rampaging beasts when awakened, instead of sentient superior beings.

Seeing as how their slumber is being disturbed by evil teams determined to use their great power to destroy the world, I'd imagine they'd have a good reason to be somewhat upset right after been awakened. Still, I don't consider them to be deities or demi-gods, only Pokemon with very special abilities and great power.

Possibly, the original battle between Groudon and Kyogre resulted in the forming of what would become the Hoenn region (since half is land and half is ocean). They didn't "create" the region specifically to create it, but it happened as a result of that battle. At least, that seems to make since to me.

Originally Posted by MiTjA

Same for the dimension trio. People who saw them manipulate even more amazing aspects of reality, or perhaps simply emerge from another dimension, somehow figured Dialga and Palkia created Sinnohs halves that are divided by Mt.Coronet.

This one, I don't know. There isn't anything I can remember from DPPt to suggest that Dialga and Palkia created the Sinnoh regions. Still, most of the people of Sinnoh seem to believe it. Sinnoh seemed to have more tributes for Dialga and Palkia around the region (the statue, the cave triangle, text books) than any other region for their Legends.

Originally Posted by MiTjA

Now imagine what witnessing Arceus' creation of one of these would do..
With Platinum and Giratina, there is one piece of dialogue thats interesting to this. Cyrus expects the Torn world to crubmle, as he thinks of Giratina as its ruler/creator, once you defeat/catch it, he is then surprised and disappointed when nothing happens.

Remember, Cyrus is the guy who wanted to create a world for himself. He was half crazy. He would be one of the last people I would think knew what he was talking about.

And the fact that the Distortion World remained unaffected by Giratina's defeat/capture could be evidence that it was not responsible for its creation, which points back to Arceus. Perhaps if that dimension was completely controlled by Giratina, it would have been destroyed.

Originally Posted by MiTjA

But lets consider the most amazing thing we have seen Arceus do.
If the Shinto ruins are canon, Arceus can create new dimension legends at will.
However, it requires hundreds of Unown to achieve this....
Personally I think of that as a kind of legendary equivalent of breeding. Where casual pokemon require an opposite gender partner, Arceus requires hundreds of Unown.

Arceus is the only Pokemon we know that can do this. Plus, the Sinjoh Ruins were specifically created for Arceus. It seems very odd that any Legend would be able to do this. Not only that, but Arceus doesn't produce another Arceus through this event, only 1 of the 3 Dragons its legend states it created.

My own personal theory is that the Unown are Arceus's power manifested (Arceus can be any type, and so can Hidden Power, which is the only move Unown can use). The Unown are mysterious and have never been a part of anything important in the games until the Sinjoh Ruins event.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

This is actually an impossible question to answer and nobody seems to even care what other peoples opinions are that's why there's arguments all over this thread but I'm gonna give my theory anyways and I'm ready for a disagreement cos ppl just gotta do it for attention lol

Actually, I like discussing this topic because it's fun for me. I like seeing different theories put against each other and seeing which one has the most credit to support it. Game Freak intentionally leaves holes for the fans to fill with their own theories, so it's interesting to see which theories are the most thought out.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

Mew's DNA has genetic codes from every single Pokemon and the ancestor of them as well.

This is only stated in the Pokedex, and it is only stated as a theory by some Pokemon scientists. It is not a fact that Mew has the DNA of all Pokemon, nor is it a fact that Mew is the ancestor. And there isn't anything in-game that suggests it.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

But, Arceus is the creator of the universe.

To be fair, this is not outright proven either. It is highly implied, but isn't stated as a fact.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

So the only way to answer this question is to really go into detail and really think about it. If Pokemon had a God would it be Arceus or Mew?

This is the error I see most people make, they want to say that Mew or Arceus is God or a god. They aren't God or any kind of god, they are both just really powerful Pokemon. People attach their own definite of the word "god" to these two Pokemon. The way I see it, the Pokemon universe has no god, only an extremely powerful Pokemon that the legends of the Sinnoh region claim had the power to create the world and possibly the universe.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

If Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon then that means Mew is also the Ancestor of Arceus. So therefore, I believe Mew was created first. If Mew isn't the ancestor of Pokemon then who is? They say Arceus created the universe but Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon. If you ask me it makes no sense. But without Mew being the ancestor then Arceus wouldn't even exist. I think Mew created Arceus to create the universe and Mew finished it by creating Pokemon. Here's a question that I would like to know. If Mew and Arceus are the creators of both then why make them obtainable in a Pokemon game? If Mew is for say God then why would it wanna battle what it created? Why would Arceus battle and destroy what it created? Those are 2 Pokemon that should of been mentioned but never became obtainable because of what they're capable of. Mew is ancestor of Pokemon so that makes it surperior to all of them.

Here's the thing, they both can't be the first Pokemon. 1 of them had to have existed first, but you're assuming BOTH of their theories are true, which contradict each other in that case.

Originally Posted by MiTjA

-Mew having DNA of all pokemon
remember that Arceus and co were not even discovered before Mew, and even if people knew of it, the scientists making this statement surely didnt go get a sample of Arceus DNA, so at its best it means all casual pokemon, but I interpret it as having the DNA of most of the first generation at least. Any more is speculation (well we could safely add babies and evos obviously..), but I wouldnt doubt it includes casual Hoenn/Sinnoh DNA...Unova is a much bigger question mark...

-It is ASSUMED to be the ancestor
Because it seems to have DNA of all pokemon. Its a theory. It might as well just be simply an extraordinary case, it might be extending its DNA everytime it comes in touch with more species, or some other explanation..

One Pokedex entry says that the "DNA of all Pokemon" theory comes from Mew's ability to use any move. They know it can use any move, and that is their theory on why. I think that just makes up for Mew not having its own signature move, ability, or special trait, like Celebi's time travel and Jirachi's wish granting. Knowing all moves I think serves as its special trait.

Originally Posted by MiTjA

-Arceus is said to have created the universe
We cannot deny the factuality of this story unless they added more legendaries with similar backstories (like if the next game introduced a second Arceus-like pokemon). But we cannot confirm it either, since all we have is a myth.
But even assuming it was true, how the heck would anyone ever know? Its not like ancient people of Sinnoh would have been there to witness the birth of the universe, remember they didn't exist yet.

The observation that Arceus is a mere pokemon like any other (it is limited by the same things, has real stats, a type, can use 4 moves, can be caught and used in battles.......) is a very important one.
I mean, when you ask something like "if pokemon had a god..", (of course it all depends on definition of that word etc. but) how could possibly a pokemon be the answer?

Like I said, I don't consider Arceus a god. Even the most powerful Pokemon in existence is still a Pokemon in the end. Even if GF were to create a new Pokemon with 1000 BST, it would still be a Pokemon like the others. Arceus is limited for battling purposes in the games. (It can't be unbeatable. That would defeat the purpose) So they program it with limitations, such as its Multitype can only let it change through the plates. And again, I think the Unown could serve to house that creation power that it uses in the Sinjoh Ruins event. (Though, that's just my theory. It doesn't need the creation power anymore because the universe already exists!)

We can't just say "If it created the universe, it shouldn't be able to be captured!" Why not? It's still a Pokemon. ALL Pokemon can be captured, regardless of their power.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

Actually If Mew is the ancestor that does make it surperior to all of them because he's the creator. With Mew being creator it's DNA genetics sends it a signal to know what the next Pokemon is going to do.

Mew knows what the other Pokemon will do? I've never heard that before.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

If no Pokemon couldn't take out Mewtwo in the movie then no Pokemon could take out Mew. Remember in the movie when Mew and Mewtwo started fighting? They were both equally powered and remember when other Pokemon tried to fight Mewtwo they didn't have a chance? So if numerous Pokemon can't stand up to Mewtwo then how could 1 Pokemon even think about trying to battle Mew?

In the movies, Arceus can change type at will, meaning all it would have to do is become a Dark-type and Mew and Mewtwo's psychic attacks would be useless against it.

Also, Shaymin was no match for Giratina in that movie, yet Arceus defeated Dialga, Palkia AND Giratina. 3 Legendary Dragons couldn't stop Arceus.

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

I still believe that Mew created Arceus because Mew wasn't powerful enough to create the universe.

That's a very odd theory. If Mew can't create the universe, how could it possibly have the power to create a creature that can?

In Dragon Ball Z, the Eternal Dragon couldn't grant a wish that was beyond the power of the creator of the Dragon Balls. I think the same thing would apply here. (or in general)

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

But then, what created Mew? Arceus couldn't of have because Mew created it because of being the ancestor.

Again, you're trying to force the idea that both theories are valid at the same time, which is why you are left with the "What created Mew then?" question. Mew being the first Pokemon and Arceus creating the universe can't both be valid. This is where I like to look at in-game references for the both of them. If you ignore the Pokedex entry for Mew, you will not find anything suggesting it is the ancestor at all, as the Pokedex is the only thing that states that theory. Even the Pokemon Mansion documents about Mew's discovery and Mewtwo's creation don't mention it being the ancestor.

[MegamanDX]

This is like Chicken or the Egg...But this time I chose Arceus!

[XanderO]

Ancestry does not equal creation.

Science says our ancestors were monkeys at one point. By your statement Monkeys created human kind. That is not true.

Mew is stated to be the Ancestor of all Pokemon simply because it can use all TMs. That is why it is considered to be the Ancestor. Also it having the DNA of Arceus doesn't necissarily mean that it came before Arceus.

Arceus' legend specifically says there was no other life before his appearence. He created Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, the world, and then the spirits. I don't honestly remember it saying he created everything else as the Spirits had a hand in creating various things as well. Mew, could have come hundreds of thousands of years after this point, but, like the fabled "Atlanean Gene" and other science fiction genes where decendants of long loss races are found, this does not mean that Mew had any direct contact with Arceus.

It is a Pokemon that has adapted in various environments and lived for untold amounts of time. Movie/Anime wise and Non-canon Game wise Legends can breed. Mew could have bred with hudreds of ancient Pokemon collecting DNA from all of them and ones that may have been direct offspring of Arceus and other Legends.

By Arceus' legend, he existed before everything else, so Canon proof wise, Arceus came first. If you choose to ignore Arceus' legend then there is no possible way to discern who came first as we do not live it the world of Pokemon so we cannot recieve all myths, legends, and scientific studies on those Pokemon.

[ShinyUmbreon189]

Originally Posted by voicerocker

Seeing as how their slumber is being disturbed by evil teams determined to use their great power to destroy the world, I'd imagine they'd have a good reason to be somewhat upset right after been awakened. Still, I don't consider them to be deities or demi-gods, only Pokemon with very special abilities and great power.

Possibly, the original battle between Groudon and Kyogre resulted in the forming of what would become the Hoenn region (since half is land and half is ocean). They didn't "create" the region specifically to create it, but it happened as a result of that battle. At least, that seems to make since to me.



This one, I don't know. There isn't anything I can remember from DPPt to suggest that Dialga and Palkia created the Sinnoh regions. Still, most of the people of Sinnoh seem to believe it. Sinnoh seemed to have more tributes for Dialga and Palkia around the region (the statue, the cave triangle, text books) than any other region for their Legends.



Remember, Cyrus is the guy who wanted to create a world for himself. He was half crazy. He would be one of the last people I would think knew what he was talking about.

And the fact that the Distortion World remained unaffected by Giratina's defeat/capture could be evidence that it was not responsible for its creation, which points back to Arceus. Perhaps if that dimension was completely controlled by Giratina, it would have been destroyed.



Arceus is the only Pokemon we know that can do this. Plus, the Sinjoh Ruins were specifically created for Arceus. It seems very odd that any Legend would be able to do this. Not only that, but Arceus doesn't produce another Arceus through this event, only 1 of the 3 Dragons its legend states it created.

My own personal theory is that the Unown are Arceus's power manifested (Arceus can be any type, and so can Hidden Power, which is the only move Unown can use). The Unown are mysterious and have never been a part of anything important in the games until the Sinjoh Ruins event.



Actually, I like discussing this topic because it's fun for me. I like seeing different theories put against each other and seeing which one has the most credit to support it. Game Freak intentionally leaves holes for the fans to fill with their own theories, so it's interesting to see which theories are the most thought out.



This is only stated in the Pokedex, and it is only stated as a theory by some Pokemon scientists. It is not a fact that Mew has the DNA of all Pokemon, nor is it a fact that Mew is the ancestor. And there isn't anything in-game that suggests it.



To be fair, this is not outright proven either. It is highly implied, but isn't stated as a fact.



This is the error I see most people make, they want to say that Mew or Arceus is God or a god. They aren't God or any kind of god, they are both just really powerful Pokemon. People attach their own definite of the word "god" to these two Pokemon. The way I see it, the Pokemon universe has no god, only an extremely powerful Pokemon that the legends of the Sinnoh region claim had the power to create the world and possibly the universe.



Here's the thing, they both can't be the first Pokemon. 1 of them had to have existed first, but you're assuming BOTH of their theories are true, which contradict each other in that case.



One Pokedex entry says that the "DNA of all Pokemon" theory comes from Mew's ability to use any move. They know it can use any move, and that is their theory on why. I think that just makes up for Mew not having its own signature move, ability, or special trait, like Celebi's time travel and Jirachi's wish granting. Knowing all moves I think serves as its special trait.



Like I said, I don't consider Arceus a god. Even the most powerful Pokemon in existence is still a Pokemon in the end. Even if GF were to create a new Pokemon with 1000 BST, it would still be a Pokemon like the others. Arceus is limited for battling purposes in the games. (It can't be unbeatable. That would defeat the purpose) So they program it with limitations, such as its Multitype can only let it change through the plates. And again, I think the Unown could serve to house that creation power that it uses in the Sinjoh Ruins event. (Though, that's just my theory. It doesn't need the creation power anymore because the universe already exists!)

We can't just say "If it created the universe, it shouldn't be able to be captured!" Why not? It's still a Pokemon. ALL Pokemon can be captured, regardless of their power.



Mew knows what the other Pokemon will do? I've never heard that before.



In the movies, Arceus can change type at will, meaning all it would have to do is become a Dark-type and Mew and Mewtwo's psychic attacks would be useless against it.

Also, Shaymin was no match for Giratina in that movie, yet Arceus defeated Dialga, Palkia AND Giratina. 3 Legendary Dragons couldn't stop Arceus.



That's a very odd theory. If Mew can't create the universe, how could it possibly have the power to create a creature that can?

In Dragon Ball Z, the Eternal Dragon couldn't grant a wish that was beyond the power of the creator of the Dragon Balls. I think the same thing would apply here. (or in general)



Again, you're trying to force the idea that both theories are valid at the same time, which is why you are left with the "What created Mew then?" question. Mew being the first Pokemon and Arceus creating the universe can't both be valid. This is where I like to look at in-game references for the both of them. If you ignore the Pokedex entry for Mew, you will not find anything suggesting it is the ancestor at all, as the Pokedex is the only thing that states that theory. Even the Pokemon Mansion documents about Mew's discovery and Mewtwo's creation don't mention it being the ancestor.

I'm done arguing I seen it coming by someone who puts down any theory anybody has to say if they don't agree with it. This was exactly what I was talking about. You completely slapped my theory in my face.

[voicerocker]

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

I'm done arguing I seen it coming by someone who puts down any theory anybody has to say if they don't agree with it. This was exactly what I was talking about. You completely slapped my theory in my face.

I was never arguing with anyone. I was taking part in the debate over which Pokemon (Mew or Arceus) has the most evidence to back up its claim of being the first Pokemon. As in any debate, I will promote my own theory and question those that don't make sense to me.

If you feel there are holes in my theory, please point them out so that I may address them and correct them if needed.

[ShinyUmbreon189]

Originally Posted by voicerocker

I was never arguing with anyone. I was taking part in the debate over which Pokemon (Mew or Arceus) has the most evidence to back up its claim of being the first Pokemon. As in any debate, I will promote my own theory and question those that don't make sense to me.

If you feel there are holes in my theory, please point them out so that I may address them and correct them if needed.

There was nothing that didn't make sense. I guess the first movie is wrong then? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they said that Mew is the ancestor of Pokemon and they created Mewtwo with it's DNA so that means it has DNA of other Pokemon as well. I still think Mew created Arceus regardless of what you or anyone else says, and I think Arceus created the universe. Mew's purpose was to create Pokemon and it did, it created Arceus to create the universe. Then the 3 main legendary's in Gen IV were created with the universe for some reason which I do not know. Once Arceus was done creating the universe Mew then proceeded to create Pokemon. When I said it sends a signal to Mew saying what the next Pokemon's gonna do I didn't literally mean it sent a signal. Mew created the Pokemon so I'm pretty sure Mew knows everything about that Pokemon whethere it be Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Zapdos, Dragonite, etc, Mew knows it's strengths and weaknesses, moves, gender, everything; because he created them. That's what I think.

[TechnoEK]

The issue that they are pointing out is that Ancestry =/= creator. It even states Arceus was the creator of Pokemon. Meaning that it gave birth to the first Pokemon = Mew which is the ancestor of all future Pokemon.

As for who created Arceus that is the Chicken and the egg question. Which the theory is a circle that has no beginning, Arceus always existed. Or the theory that he hatched from an egg that was created by Chaos and nothingness, I'm getting a reference to the big bang from that.

Mew and Arceus can also be applied to the religious version of Adam and Eve, they are the ancestors of humans but not the creators, whereas God is basically the chicken and the egg, which is to say God has no origin.

[MiTjA]

Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189

There was nothing that didn't make sense. I guess the first movie is wrong then? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they said that Mew is the ancestor of Pokemon and they created Mewtwo with it's DNA so that means it has DNA of other Pokemon as well. I still think Mew created Arceus regardless of what you or anyone else says, and I think Arceus created the universe. Mew's purpose was to create Pokemon and it did, it created Arceus to create the universe. Then the 3 main legendary's in Gen IV were created with the universe for some reason which I do not know. Once Arceus was done creating the universe Mew then proceeded to create Pokemon. When I said it sends a signal to Mew saying what the next Pokemon's gonna do I didn't literally mean it sent a signal. Mew created the Pokemon so I'm pretty sure Mew knows everything about that Pokemon whethere it be Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Zapdos, Dragonite, etc, Mew knows it's strengths and weaknesses, moves, gender, everything; because he created them. That's what I think.

First of all lets be clear on whats canon.

The people who actually design the pokemon themselves (and hence their backstories and concepts), have nothing to do with the anime/movies, those are simply made from whatever material the games introduce. So they might make up loads of stuff on their own when they want to.


Mew is considered the ancestor (just a theory, based on assumptions about facts), because it can learn all TMs.
How would they even have found out it has DNA of all pokemon if that were the case? Would scientists have located everything including Arceus and taken samples for the sake of this theory? Not to mention Arceus was nowhere near Kanto or even documented yet, when these discoveries about Mew were made.

[ShinyUmbreon189]

Originally Posted by MiTjA

First of all lets be clear on whats canon.

The people who actually design the pokemon themselves (and hence their backstories and concepts), have nothing to do with the anime/movies, those are simply made from whatever material the games introduce. So they might make up loads of stuff on their own when they want to.


Mew is considered the ancestor (just a theory, based on assumptions about facts), because it can learn all TMs.
How would they even have found out it has DNA of all pokemon if that were the case? Would scientists have located everything including Arceus and taken samples for the sake of this theory? Not to mention Arceus was nowhere near Kanto or even documented yet, when these discoveries about Mew were made.

Did you not look at my other posts? I clearly said that there are other Professor's in the Pokemon world. So what your saying makes no sense because Prof. Rowan could of discovered Arceus at the same time Prof. Oak discovered Mew or scientists in those specific regions. There's more than 1 region in Pokemon and they all got different Pokemon that the other regions don't know of yet, and that would explain why Arceus wasn't documented in the Kanto region. It's the same thing with Mew; he wasn't discovered in the Sinnoh region.

But like I said before; whether you guy's agree or disagree I don't care, because regardless of what you all say I'm not gonna change my theory and I'll be damned if you guys make me change it because you don't agree with it. I'm not gonna change my theory of who I think came first if you guy's don't agree with it. That defeats the purpose of a theory.

[XanderO]

According to Canon, Arceus predates mew. You refusing to believe that is you saying your own support to your theory means nothing because you are discrediting your own source. Both the games and Anime both specifically state that Arceus created everything.

And None of the Professors discovered any of the Legendary Pokemon. They collected data from old stories and myths. No one documented, except Dr. Fuji, discovered Mew, though they found a fossil of Mew that had its DNA that they used to create Mewtwo. The legends and stories of legends existed before the Professors produced the Pokedexes. Majority of the Pokedex information for almost all the Legends are from the stories and legends.

[ShinyUmbreon189]

I'm done posting because it seems everyone is against me for having an open mind. I guess it a crime to have an open mind on this thread. Also, it's Pokemon, nobody on this planet other than GameFreak knows who came first. I'm not SAYING Mew came first it's just my opinion and you guy's wont accept it because you disagree with it. Probably because you didn't grow up with the old Pokemon and Gen IV was your first Pokemon, honestly idk, maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion but it's really annoying when I gotta keep explaining the same thing over and over and over to you guys. So if your not empoyeed with GameFreak quit posting like you know everything about the 2 because you don't. I'm posting from what I heard from GameFreak you guy's are posting thinking you know for a fact Arceus created everything. I'm done, have a nice day.

[XanderO]

Ok dude, calm down. You post a discussion and debate and get mad you don't get responses you like?

I GREW UP with Pokemon. I was 10 when I got my first copy of Blue. I still have my brother's copy of Red that I still play. Others in this thread have started Gen 3 or earlier as well. Just because we don't think the same way doesn't mean we are against you or against the theory, there just isn't enough Canon proof to support it.

And as others have said, this is a creation theory. Which came first the Chicken or the Egg. No one can answer that, we all know this. Gamefreak has told us which came first in this regard though.

You slowly changed your posts from, here is my support and my theory, to its my opinion I don't care what everyone else says cause you are all wrong. Gamefreak gave us the information that we used to make our conclusions and a 6 page thread is a pretty healthy discussion.

Just cool your jets and be the open minded person you are claiming to be.

No we don't agree with your theory. We even say things that we don't agree with other's parts of the theory. Mine is different than Voice Rocker's. I don't believe Arceus directly created Mew. I think Mew came along MUCH later. We know Arceus created the Space/Time/Dimension Dragons and the three Spirits. I believe he created Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza as well. Legends like the Regis I don't believe he created. I believe they are human made since they are Golem like in thought and the way they act.

There are many different opinions on creation.

[ShinyUmbreon189]

I'm getting mad because you guy's slap my theory in my face kinda like saying yeah, your wrong there isn't no way your right. Idk why people can't be civil on here instead of just bashing my theory. What I was saying in the last post is that most of you guy's think you know for a fact who was created first like you created the storyline or something. I'm just using resources from GameFreak while most of you are using your own opinion and thinking it's a fact. I know it's a debatable question and I'm cool with that but it get's really annoying when I gotta keep explaining the same thing over and over because you didn't get it the first time; or they did but they wanna make them seem dominant to me. That's the way I feel about it. It's all an opinion but I'm tired of communicating with people who think they know everything.

[XanderO]

That isn't the least bit true.

No one is bashing your theory or slapping you in the face with it. If you feel that you are, I'm sorry you feel that way, but everyone has posted fairly civilly.

As for Opinion as fact, you are doing that. Gamefreak has stated Arceus came first as I've repeatedly said. That is a fact, not an opinion. That is why we don't agree with your theory. Gamefreak says Arceus came first. They don't conflict with this either as they never say how old Mew has existed. We know that mew has existed for at least a thousand years since it was found as a fossil and as cave drawings in South America, which is Canon to both the Anime and the games.

It received Ancestry theory because its DNA was compatible with all known artificial attacks (TMs), which are game only. Anime wise it's considered a Pokemon Ancestor because it is one of few that existed then and now. Other Ancestral Pokemon would be Kabuto, Kabutops, Omanyte, Omastar, Aerodactly, Lileep, Cradily, Anorith, Armaldo, Archen, Archeops, Tirtouga, Carracosta, and Relicanth.

All of the fossils, since the fossils are based off of extinct Pokemon and could be related to now existing Pokemon if they couldn't revive them, would be ancestors to various Pokemon now by theory. Tirtouga could be a Squirtle Ancestor, both being Water typed turtles. Archen I think was said to be the ancestor of various bird Pokemon today. Relicanth, despite still being around was said to be the ancestor to many fish Pokemon. Now that is all opinion. I cannot back all of it up.

Repeating things over and over trying to force feed others is what makes you wrong. Yes there are flaws in your theory that were pointed out and you adamantly reject, but a lot of the pointed out flaws were facts against your theory. Gamefreak has said that Arceus, alone, created all the Pokemon as well as the planet and Legendaries that were underneath it.

Arceus has been stated as a God, while Mew, closest thing I can safely relate to mew is members of an ancient civilization like the Aztecs or the Mayans, who do still have various clans and tribes existing today, just not as extravagant or in their ancestral homes.