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  #26    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 04:25 PM
Rickyboy's Avatar
Rickyboy
Its time for overtime
 
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Personally the original gba title is what I'd like to see remade because I like it so much, but that's because we haven't really had much else to compare it to.

I'd also really like to see the gameboard incorporated into the game. Essentially a background that will be different every time you play, to mimic the different poster/board things that come with the booster packs nowadays. This would be a great incentive to get more artists aboard, since they could literally draw almost anything for the boards.

I'd say show the overall board between turns, and then when it comes time to attack, the screen switches to the gbc style card vs. card set-up.

Lastly, I'm free as a artist for whatever when the framework gets set-up. I know that doesn't help you right now, but whether it be menu design, card art, or whatever, I can help.
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  #27    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 05:39 PM
Maruno's Avatar
Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
Nice GDD for a minigame option in a engine. This is almost a profissinal one! A profissinal Design Document generally have more description (even more detailed) and diagrams. But for a draft this is excellent (excluding the lack of duel info). You're skilled at it, I can't believe that is your first time!
This design document is pretty much just a list of notes I've thought of, arranged into sections. Some important notes are unnecessary, as they're mechanics of the game and assumed known (e.g. you draw a card at the beginning of your turn, and attack at the end), or things are described as "like X unless stated" and are also taken for granted (e.g. the Library works like the Bag). That's probably where the lack of description is. That and me not thinking of everything, of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
I vote for Stadium/Support cards as separate types, but will be the same in some effects (just like real TCG). The real TCG can't edit the old cards.

I suggest you to make this a string array defined in card rather that several subtypes defined in scripts.

I suggest you to use the actual number and only allow 10 multiples. I predict people having problems with this.
The only thing against the complete separation of Trainer and Stadium/Supporter cards is that most recently they've gone back to being subtypes of Trainer cards. In this particular situation, it's easier to pick one option and stick to it (situations like "how do Fossil Pokémon work?", on the other hand, should probably remain identical to the real cards despite a variety of methods).

I know how to define the various card properties (I just need to know which ones are needed). Trust me, it's better my way. Smaller HP values are simpler to work with, and if people can't read the instructions and observe the hundreds of example cards, I'd say there's something wrong with them rather than the system being at fault.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
Maybe in future?

Disagree. Put a number option (1-6) for more convenience

Disagree, Probably Isn't possible to put all in one page, so put two with the second page a continuation from the first one.

Put also a money/coins/card points option from buying boosters or cards.

I prefer this as a mode for Library.
Card shops are, to say the least, difficult when there's no currency (which is about the first thing I stated). The GBC game managed without money, and it's not something I'm going to worry about. This also applies to your comment about alternatives to booster prizes - I did consider cash alternatives, but decided against it (because that's not how the GBC game rolls, it doesn't feel right/appropriate to me, and it deters save-scumming for better booster pack contents).

I understand that duels are only done with either 3 or 6 Prize cards, which is why I wrote that. 1 is rather unfair as there's too much chance involved in the early game, and any other number seems random.

You can disagree all you want about the layout of the card summary, but it hasn't even been designed yet. All I know is that it's impossible to fit all the information on one screen, and I know how the GBC game does it, which is what I wrote. I don't know whether it will just show the entire card image (probably not), or show screens similar to the GBC game. It's up to the artists.

The Card Dex performs a different function to the Library. The Library shows you what cards you have (and how many you have), while the Card Dex is mainly used to show you what you're missing (just like the Pokédex, including where you can get missing cards from - booster packs are based on sets). The Library also has many pockets, making it impossible to use it as a set completion record. The Card Dex will remain as a separate feature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
About the game board I prefer the Game Boy TCG one rather that the actual board. Try to mix some options and display the moves and Poké-power in the main duel screen (at least without the effect or even only the names). Try to display also the weakness, resistance and retreat cost.

Instead of Hand, Attack, Check, Pkmn Power, Retreat and Done, I suggest you to use Hand, Action (with Attack and Done options) and Board (with Pkmn Power and Retreat options).

I prefer that you use the pokémon card artwork rather that the entire card.
Again, all that is mainly up to the artists who will come up with the appearance of the duel screen. I've tried playing around with some graphics, but it's very difficult for me to figure anything out (it's not my forte).

I imagine it would work like Asobikata, in that you select a card and a pop-up menu appears listing the appropriate actions that card can do (rather than the GBC method of choosing the action first then finding a card that can do it). The card graphics in the duel screen would have a number of icons on them, indicating a few things (whether retreat is possible, whether it has a PokéPower, whatever).

It would be best to use card templates, and just have card-specific illustrations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yaywalter View Post
My TCG project fell through simply due to laziness and getting distracted by other projects. But the idea still appeals to me, so I might revisit it... I'm thinking about even integrating it into my current project, so it'll be like two games in one: A regular Pokemon game, and a Pokemon TCG game.

Anyway, well-done design document. I should probably start making 'em for my projects instead of just jotting down random notes. I wish you the best of luck with your TCG game, but we might just become rivals if I include the TCG in my Pokemon game. But that might even be beneficial...
I'm not making a game myself. This is mainly a whim, and if it comes to fruition, it will be available to all as a kit (an addition to Essentials). I don't think I'll include it in Essentials itself, though.

That's why I won't consider you a "rival". Sharing ideas would be beneficial, of course, particularly between two people who are actually working on such projects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickyboy View Post
Personally the original gba title is what I'd like to see remade because I like it so much, but that's because we haven't really had much else to compare it to.

I'd also really like to see the gameboard incorporated into the game. Essentially a background that will be different every time you play, to mimic the different poster/board things that come with the booster packs nowadays. This would be a great incentive to get more artists aboard, since they could literally draw almost anything for the boards.

I'd say show the overall board between turns, and then when it comes time to attack, the screen switches to the gbc style card vs. card set-up.

Lastly, I'm free as a artist for whatever when the framework gets set-up. I know that doesn't help you right now, but whether it be menu design, card art, or whatever, I can help.
The dual background random artwork is an interesting idea, and one which I probably wouldn't have thought of. It's up to the artists as to whether the dual will look like an actual playing field or just a mass of information (but I'd prefer the former).



By the way, when I say "artists", I mean: "anyone of you people who want to make a doodle in Paint of how you think something should look or be laid out". You don't need to be a good artist; you just need to visually show where you think the discard pile should appear (or whatever).

I need this concept art now. I can't really make any progress at all until I know what the screens are supposed to look like (and I'm bad at that). The more art, the better. Draw everything. Thanks.
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  #28    
Old September 22nd, 2012, 06:30 PM
FL's Avatar
FL
Pokémon Island Creator
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
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In the deck card count make like (example): if you have 3 Rattata cards, you can put 3 in a deck, 1 in other, 3 in even other, etc... in the same time, but without way to put 4 in one deck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I know how to define the various card properties (I just need to know which ones are needed). Trust me, it's better my way.
I am thinking about the user side. If a dev wish to create a new subtypes, he just make something like: "Subtype=Super, Hyper", rather than putting a internal name and adding in scripts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Card shops are, to say the least, difficult when there's no currency (which is about the first thing I stated). The GBC game managed without money, and it's not something I'm going to worry about. This also applies to your comment about alternatives to booster prizes - I did consider cash alternatives, but decided against it (because that's not how the GBC game rolls, it doesn't feel right/appropriate to me, and it deters save-scumming for better booster pack contents).
Most of the TCG games use a current, so the dev that will use this kit probably will use this, and isn't hard to make. Don't put this is like a fight against the current.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I understand that duels are only done with either 3 or 6 Prize cards, which is why I wrote that. 1 is rather unfair as there's too much chance involved in the early game, and any other number seems random.
The Game Boy game has this option and isn't hard to do. Like you say: you are making a feature in a dev kit, not one actual game.
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  #29    
Old September 23rd, 2012, 05:13 AM
Maruno's Avatar
Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
In the deck card count make like (example): if you have 3 Rattata cards, you can put 3 in a deck, 1 in other, 3 in even other, etc... in the same time, but without way to put 4 in one deck.
You're suggesting that decks act like "recipes", where the cards themselves remain in the Library (rather than the decks physically containing the cards). I did consider this approach, but it would be harder to make sure that decks aren't broken if you get rid of a card (via selling/tossing/trading). I don't think it's worth the effort, it makes less sense than decks physically containing their cards, and it either doesn't affect the player or encourages them to get more cards so they can have both desired decks at once.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
I am thinking about the user side. If a dev wish to create a new subtypes, he just make something like: "Subtype=Super, Hyper", rather than putting a internal name and adding in scripts.

Most of the TCG games use a current, so the dev that will use this kit probably will use this, and isn't hard to make. Don't put this is like a fight against the current.

The Game Boy game has this option and isn't hard to do. Like you say: you are making a feature in a dev kit, not one actual game.
If you're adding a new card Subtype, you're going to need to edit the scripts anyway in order to make it do anything. It's as simple as adding the line "Super = 12" in the appropriate place. My way also makes it easier to create cards, as if you mistype a card's Subtype, it simply won't compile and will immediately tell you why (rather than it compiling with the wrong Subtype and then be incompatible with whatever effects you create for that Subtype, which is a harder error to track down).

Support for a currency isn't important at the moment. As I've said, I don't know if I'll ever add a currency anyway. It's a matter of what feels right for the game, and I don't think duels for cash feels right.

Where in the GBC game can you decide how many prize cards you will use? I don't recall any choice at all.
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  #30    
Old September 23rd, 2012, 05:59 AM
FL's Avatar
FL
Pokémon Island Creator
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
You're suggesting that decks act like "recipes", where the cards themselves remain in the Library (rather than the decks physically containing the cards). I did consider this approach, but it would be harder to make sure that decks aren't broken if you get rid of a card (via selling/tossing/trading). I don't think it's worth the effort, it makes less sense than decks physically containing their cards, and it either doesn't affect the player or encourages them to get more cards so they can have both desired decks at once.
Yes, like recipes! I consider this even easier, like, if you have 3 cards and want to sell/toss/trade 2 you only need to check if some deck contain 3 or 2 cards, if any contain, them block it. The recipe idea encorage the player to try several different decks without needing to disassemble the old ones, almost all (if isn't all) actual TCG electronic games use recipes concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Where in the GBC game can you decide how many prize cards you will use? I don't recall any choice at all.
This choice I am talking for devs. In the Game Boy TCG, every duel have their prizes previous set by the developer, the importants ones (plus Imakuni?) are 6.This duel have 4 prizes.
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  #31    
Old September 23rd, 2012, 09:54 AM
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the__end
Pixel Artist
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
The Card Dex performs a different function to the Library. The Library shows you what cards you have (and how many you have), while the Card Dex is mainly used to show you what you're missing (just like the Pokédex, including where you can get missing cards from - booster packs are based on sets). The Library also has many pockets, making it impossible to use it as a set completion record. The Card Dex will remain as a separate feature.
well it looks like i have misunderstood something...
you remember me saying i want to start with a "deck construction screen"?
i actually meant something like the library you mentioned above where it is shown which cards the player owns and stuff like this...
i thought you mean with "library" something like a Card Dex so i made a design for a card dex screen...
english is not my native language so sry for the misunderstanding!
cant you just start the project with the dex screen where you add the first set of cards?
here is what i made even thought its not what you wanted: http://www.mediafire.com/?f8lkuytc126jnb1
i wanted to make the info screen for the cards after this but it looks like i should make the library like you described...
ahh by the way i have all the existing cards as scans so i resized the base set to fit in the card dex screen... (i will resize more sets later)
here they are: http://www.mediafire.com/?gt77e7x7b5ka11k
these cards are pretty small because otherwise i couldnt fit them in the dex screen...
i already prepared bigger size cards (where you can read the text on the cards) for the info screen...
i will upload them after i am finished with the info screen...
and here is a screenshot for everyone who dont want to download the psd file...
http://i.imgur.com/9Xd3V.png

EDIT:
if you dont have photoshop you can open .psd files with paint.net and this plugin: http://www.chip.de/downloads/Paint.N..._41383756.html
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Last edited by the__end; September 23rd, 2012 at 10:06 AM.
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  #32    
Old September 23rd, 2012, 11:41 AM
Maruno's Avatar
Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
I can start creating pretty much any part of the game; I would just have preferred to begin with the Library.

Thanks for the card images, but we shouldn't be using images of the whole card. We just need the illustration itself. Making those should wait, though, until we've decided what a card is actually going to look like (e.g. the size of it, which will depend on the designs of the various screens). Ideally, a card will look the same in every screen (except the Card Info, where all its information will be displayed rather than just the important stuff).


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
Your design certainly looks nice, but the layout needs improving.

The whole point of the Card Dex is for it to display a list, which means it's better if you can see more of the list at once. What you've done is waste some vertical space for the header and footer, and then space out the list more than necessary (48 pixels per line as opposed to the standard 32), resulting in just 5 entries visible at once.

The only sorting method will be by index number, so the footer is completely unnecessary.

I don't know whether we'll bother with "seen". It's simpler to use just "owned". And in that case, there's no need for an icon to show that a card is owned - the name being shown will suffice.
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  #33    
Old September 23rd, 2012, 01:28 PM
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the__end
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Thanks for the card images, but we shouldn't be using images of the whole card. We just need the illustration itself. Making those should wait, though, until we've decided what a card is actually going to look like (e.g. the size of it, which will depend on the designs of the various screens). Ideally, a card will look the same in every screen (except the Card Info, where all its information will be displayed rather than just the important stuff).
well imo its better to use the whole card because the use of a blank card where you add the illustration like in the gbc games is limited after a certain point...
you know in the newer cards the pokemon started to go out of the card window...
look at this example: http://pokebeach.com/scans/next-dest...-mewtwo-ex.jpg

there are 2 sizes i would suggest for a card...
first we need a small image like the cards i uploaded in my previous post (132x182 pixel)
the other one is a full view of the card like these: http://www.mediafire.com/?wqw1ug175vpc7gc
their size is 276x380 which barely fits in the current screen size of essentials...
you can see & read almost anything in this size...
it looks even better with the newer cards where you have a lot of details...
ahh and of course we need tiny cards for the library screen...
they dont need to have any details so a tiny card for each card type should be enough...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Your design certainly looks nice, but the layout needs improving.

The whole point of the Card Dex is for it to display a list, which means it's better if you can see more of the list at once. What you've done is waste some vertical space for the header and footer, and then space out the list more than necessary (48 pixels per line as opposed to the standard 32), resulting in just 5 entries visible at once.

The only sorting method will be by index number, so the footer is completely unnecessary.
i will improve these points...
i hope i can make 10-12 card names visible at once next time...
and well a sorting method for the card dex is not that use full...
but we need a sorting method for the library right?
otherwise it would take hours to make a deck...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I don't know whether we'll bother with "seen". It's simpler to use just "owned". And in that case, there's no need for an icon to show that a card is owned - the name being shown will suffice.
without the "seen" option how will the players know which cards are missing in their collection?
after seeing a card (for example in battle) that you want to have how are you supposed to get it if you dont know which boosters you need to open?
its like in the pokemon games you know...
if you dont know the location where the pokemon are you cant find them without some luck...
it would be almost impossible to get a rare pokemon with a 1% rate to find...
with rare cards its even worse because there are tons of them and if you have the luck to get one its most likely not the one you wanted...

EDIT
changed the layout a little bit...
http://www.mediafire.com/?sfy9y87az6p75rw
screenshot:

if this is ok for the beginning i will start work on the card info screen...
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  #34    
Old September 24th, 2012, 10:42 AM
Maruno's Avatar
Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
well imo its better to use the whole card because the use of a blank card where you add the illustration like in the gbc games is limited after a certain point...
you know in the newer cards the pokemon started to go out of the card window...
look at this example: http://pokebeach.com/scans/next-dest...-mewtwo-ex.jpg

there are 2 sizes i would suggest for a card...
first we need a small image like the cards i uploaded in my previous post (132x182 pixel)
the other one is a full view of the card like these: http://www.mediafire.com/?wqw1ug175vpc7gc
their size is 276x380 which barely fits in the current screen size of essentials...
you can see & read almost anything in this size...
it looks even better with the newer cards where you have a lot of details...
ahh and of course we need tiny cards for the library screen...
they dont need to have any details so a tiny card for each card type should be enough...
I'm pretty sure we'd just need the one image per card (the largest one), since the game can resize it where necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
i will improve these points...
i hope i can make 10-12 card names visible at once next time...
and well a sorting method for the card dex is not that use full...
but we need a sorting method for the library right?
otherwise it would take hours to make a deck...
I don't know if even the Library needs sorting methods. Can't it just act like the Bag, where you can sort it yourself, and new cards are added to the bottom? Besides, I don't know what sorting method would be best.

If having too many cards becomes a serious general concern, I may add a "Trunk" option to the PC, where you can dump cards you don't use. However, it's not something I'm going to bother with now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
without the "seen" option how will the players know which cards are missing in their collection?
after seeing a card (for example in battle) that you want to have how are you supposed to get it if you dont know which boosters you need to open?
its like in the pokemon games you know...
if you dont know the location where the pokemon are you cant find them without some luck...
it would be almost impossible to get a rare pokemon with a 1% rate to find...
with rare cards its even worse because there are tons of them and if you have the luck to get one its most likely not the one you wanted...
I'm still not convinced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
EDIT
changed the layout a little bit...
http://www.mediafire.com/?sfy9y87az6p75rw
screenshot:

if this is ok for the beginning i will start work on the card info screen...
This new layout is a lot better than your first attempt.

The card numbers should appear next to each card, in place of the ball symbol (which isn't needed if we're not using a "seen" option).

There shouldn't be any scrolling left/right to change sets here. The sets will be listed in another screen first (like the list of Regional Dexes in Essentials).

I'm also not sure about using BW graphics.



I've attached my very poor attempt at a Library screen, just so you have an idea of what I was thinking of. If you have a better layout, go for it. You'll certainly have better graphics.
Attached Thumbnails
Library concept.png‎  
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  #35    
Old September 24th, 2012, 01:41 PM
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mewlover22
Pokemon Creator
 
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Nature: Quiet
all good ideas this will be a great project when its done any chance of being able to add our own sets when this game comes out?
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  #36    
Old September 24th, 2012, 01:52 PM
the__end's Avatar
the__end
Pixel Artist
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I'm pretty sure we'd just need the one image per card (the largest one), since the game can resize it where necessary.
if the quality is acceptable this would save me some work...
so should i send you the first sets (size: 276x380)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I don't know if even the Library needs sorting methods. Can't it just act like the Bag, where you can sort it yourself, and new cards are added to the bottom? Besides, I don't know what sorting method would be best.

If having too many cards becomes a serious general concern, I may add a "Trunk" option to the PC, where you can dump cards you don't use. However, it's not something I'm going to bother with now.
at the beginning its not needed because the first 3 sets have together like 200 cards...
but each set adds about 100 cards so a sorting system is essential after you have reached like 1000 cards...
imo the most important sorting method is alphabetical but there are some more points which can be used to sort the cards like hp, atk, type, rarity and so on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I'm still not convinced.
well i dont know what else i can tell you about the "seen" option to convince you expect the points i told you in my other post...
how about hearing the opinions of other users?
imo its important to know which cards can be found in which booster but if its just me that thinks this way i will remove the "seen" option without regrets...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
The card numbers should appear next to each card, in place of the ball symbol (which isn't needed if we're not using a "seen" option).

There shouldn't be any scrolling left/right to change sets here. The sets will be listed in another screen first (like the list of Regional Dexes in Essentials).

I'm also not sure about using BW graphics.
i knew i forgot something (index numbers)! xD
i will add them to the next version...
but i dont know if i should remove the ball symbol which marks the cards as "seen"...
is it ok for you if i move it to a different position where it can be removed easily until some more people tell us their opinion about the "seen" option?

removing the arrows is an easy task...
should i give this screen where the sets are listed a try too?
i can already see it before me!

well i used the BW style because its easy to work with ad the results look good...
i wanted to replace them with a more unique style after some more progress is done...
if you want i can change the style with the next version but it would take a lot of time where i could work for other important stuff like info or library screen...
imo we should stick with the BW graphics until we have a concept for some more screen (library, card info, deck construction and the set screen mentioned above) but well its not my decision...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I've attached my very poor attempt at a Library screen, just so you have an idea of what I was thinking of. If you have a better layout, go for it. You'll certainly have better graphics.
this is realy helpfull!
an idea i had right after seeing your screen it that the icons on the top can be made to dropdown boxes where you can add sorting methods!
for example a dropdown box for the set, one for the cardtype, one for the first letter of the card (which is a way of sorting alphabetical), one box with numbers for hp, one to check if the card has pokepower/body and so on...
this way you can find exactly the card you look for...
there is still some time until i start with the library screen so think about it and add all the stuff you want there...
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  #37    
Old September 24th, 2012, 03:37 PM
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Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Progress update
Since the last time I mentioned my progress, I've rewritten the compiler and added pretty much every card aspect to the list of things it compiles, created a Library array whose cards are auto-sorted into the correct pocket, created a Deck object and array for the player's decks, added a load of methods which make manipulating cards easier, and today I created another compiler script which reads a PBS file containing pre-made decks (which must each be 60 cards long).

Nearly all of this is behind-the-scenes code, which means the user won't ever need to bother with it. Amongst other things, I can now add a card to the Library or a deck with a single line of code, knowing that the appropriate checks are made (such as the 4-card limit per species). Deleting is also just as simple and complete (e.g. deleting a card from the Library makes sure it's not being used in a deck first). It may all be rather disjointed at the moment, but it'll come together when the screens have been created.

I have 4 script sections and 678 total lines of code to do all the above.

Just thought you might be interested. Not bad for a week's work, particularly considering I haven't spent as long on it as I could have due to laziness and waiting for a screen to create.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mewlover22 View Post
all good ideas this will be a great project when its done any chance of being able to add our own sets when this game comes out?
Of course. Each set is its own txt file, so you can easily throw in more and they'll be added automatically. The relatively hard part is filling the file in correctly, and the actual hard part is programming in all the new effects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
if the quality is acceptable this would save me some work...
so should i send you the first sets (size: 276x380)?
As I said, we should wait until we have decent designs for the screens, because we can't know what size card graphics we'll need until then.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
at the beginning its not needed because the first 3 sets have together like 200 cards...
but each set adds about 100 cards so a sorting system is essential after you have reached like 1000 cards...
imo the most important sorting method is alphabetical but there are some more points which can be used to sort the cards like hp, atk, type, rarity and so on...
Remember that the contents of each set will (probably) be divided up into many Library pockets (one per Pokémon element, Trainers, Energy). It'll be quite a while before you start losing cards.

Alphabetical sorting is fair enough, as is by card type (Basic/Stage 1/Baby/etc.). I think I'm just about able to manage that - remember that I do have to code all this, and I don't want to give myself a harder time than necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
well i dont know what else i can tell you about the "seen" option to convince you expect the points i told you in my other post...
how about hearing the opinions of other users?
imo its important to know which cards can be found in which booster but if its just me that thinks this way i will remove the "seen" option without regrets...
I see the Card Dex as more of a checklist than of a way of learning where cards can be found. In the real world, you don't keep a track which which cards you know exist, do you? Other CCG-based games don't. If you want to know the contents of a set, you can use the Internet. Plus, there's the joy of opening a booster pack and discovering what lies within (new cards will be marked as such, so you at least know if you gained anything new).


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
i knew i forgot something (index numbers)! xD
i will add them to the next version...
but i dont know if i should remove the ball symbol which marks the cards as "seen"...
is it ok for you if i move it to a different position where it can be removed easily until some more people tell us their opinion about the "seen" option?

removing the arrows is an easy task...
should i give this screen where the sets are listed a try too?
i can already see it before me!

well i used the BW style because its easy to work with ad the results look good...
i wanted to replace them with a more unique style after some more progress is done...
if you want i can change the style with the next version but it would take a lot of time where i could work for other important stuff like info or library screen...
imo we should stick with the BW graphics until we have a concept for some more screen (library, card info, deck construction and the set screen mentioned above) but well its not my decision...
You can do what you like with the designs. I'm not expecting the absolute final designs immediately; I don't mind if I just have placeholder graphics, so long as I know what layout to work to.

The screen listing the sets would be nice to have too; I imagine it looks pretty much the same as the Card Dex. Each set should list its completion next to it. Sets for which the player has no cards will not be shown at all, like empty Regional Dexes in Essentials. There's no need to display an overall completion value. You may want to put each set's icon next to it to liven things up; I haven't decided either way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
this is realy helpfull!
an idea i had right after seeing your screen it that the icons on the top can be made to dropdown boxes where you can add sorting methods!
for example a dropdown box for the set, one for the cardtype, one for the first letter of the card (which is a way of sorting alphabetical), one box with numbers for hp, one to check if the card has pokepower/body and so on...
this way you can find exactly the card you look for...
there is still some time until i start with the library screen so think about it and add all the stuff you want there...
I think a better way would be to open a menu with the Z key (like it used to in the Pokédex), and this menu would list several sorting methods to use. Again, deciding which methods should exist is the key. That is, if there will be multiple sorting methods at all.

I think what you are describing are filters (i.e. hide cards which don't match the criteria), but I'm not sure I'd be able to do that.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 04:47 PM
Umbreon's Avatar
Umbreon
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I could help here, if you give me a script to work on considering that it's not relative to graphics directly (drawing images and or text directly) I am fine at what you want to throw at me.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 06:06 AM
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Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Pretty much everything I can think of is either directly related to drawing things on-screen, or are fragments of code which aren't really useful at the moment and would be subject to change anyway.

That's why, if you can, I'd like you to think about how best to implement card effects in battle, and how/when to check them.

Ideally I would like all effects of each kind (attack, ability, held item, general card effects) to to be grouped together in their own section, like move effects do with their function codes (card effects have their own function codes). That is, have something similar to class PokeBattle_Move (a basic class for a standard effect), then a PokeBattle_MoveEffects-type script section containing addition classes, one for each function code. The basic class would do nothing, but would contain all the methods which are called at every time any possible effect would be checked/used (which each function code's class can overwrite).

This would require a TCGBattle_CardEffect (or TCGBattle_AttackEffect, TCGBattle_AbilityEffect, etc.) entity to be created for each effect, but should they be created/discarded only while being used/checked, or should they constantly exist for as long as the card with that effect is on the field? Should there be multiple classes, one per kind of effect, which are used solely for their effect, or should there be just the one class for the card itself (which will exist anyway) with all possible effects/checks merged into that? Should the four kinds of function code mentioned above be separated into distinct function code continuums at all? Should handlers (like those used for some item effects) be used instead of the PokeBattle_Move-style "basic plus addition" classes? Could a hybrid of function codes and handlers work better, or even be possible?

Then we have the question of when effects need to be checked (e.g. before/during/after using an attack, upon flipping a coin, between turns, after drawing a card, when picking a Prize Card, etc. etc.). There are obviously many points during a duel when an effect could occur, so there would need to be many methods/handlers to cover all these occasions. And some effects only affect their own card, while some affect all cards in play - should these be differentiated in how they are checked, or just in the effect itself?

I hope this has made any sense at all.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
As I said, we should wait until we have decent designs for the screens, because we can't know what size card graphics we'll need until then.
ok...
just thought that the cards could be useful when scripting stuff...
after all they are the max. size the current screen can show so having them would be useful i thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Remember that the contents of each set will (probably) be divided up into many Library pockets (one per Pokémon element, Trainers, Energy). It'll be quite a while before you start losing cards.

Alphabetical sorting is fair enough, as is by card type (Basic/Stage 1/Baby/etc.). I think I'm just about able to manage that - remember that I do have to code all this, and I don't want to give myself a harder time than necessary.

I see the Card Dex as more of a checklist than of a way of learning where cards can be found. In the real world, you don't keep a track which which cards you know exist, do you? Other CCG-based games don't. If you want to know the contents of a set, you can use the Internet. Plus, there's the joy of opening a booster pack and discovering what lies within (new cards will be marked as such, so you at least know if you gained anything new).
i have to apologize!
i just realized that the features i mentioned are nice and all but they are a pain to script right?
i will remove the "seen" marks from the card dex screen...
that the new cards are marked as "new" should be enough!
and the sorting system is unnecessary if its possible for you to make the filters you mentioned...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
The screen listing the sets would be nice to have too; I imagine it looks pretty much the same as the Card Dex. Each set should list its completion next to it. Sets for which the player has no cards will not be shown at all, like empty Regional Dexes in Essentials. There's no need to display an overall completion value. You may want to put each set's icon next to it to liven things up; I haven't decided either way.
should the completion value shown in percent?
it would definitely look better and save some space...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I think a better way would be to open a menu with the Z key (like it used to in the Pokédex), and this menu would list several sorting methods to use. Again, deciding which methods should exist is the key. That is, if there will be multiple sorting methods at all.

I think what you are describing are filters (i.e. hide cards which don't match the criteria), but I'm not sure I'd be able to do that.
yeah i meant filters!
they are much better then just sorting the cards...
hope you will find a way to add this feature...

filters are often used in TCG video games like "Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's World Championship 2011" to sort your cards in your library and find the one you want to have in your deck...
here is a screen:
Spoiler:

i thought we could do the library something like this...
not as complicated but the structure should look similar...
of course we have to implement the top ds screen (where the card image is) to the bottom one...
maybe make it pop up if you click a button?
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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:23 AM
Umbreon's Avatar
Umbreon
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Alright, I did understand what you said there.



I prefer a signle class (PokeBattle_Effects) with different variables that will in the outcome suit every needed situation
and to make it more flexible add a custom_code segment which allows you to evaluate a custom code just for incase there are
some un-defined methods required within the effect

OR

We can do something simmilar to Essentials where we must create a code for every move (which is time more time consuming in
my opinion)

the PokeBattle_Effects class can store any type of effect: Move/Ability/Card and can be activated at selected points:
Turn Started/Turn Ended/Coin Flipped/Coin Heads/Coin Tales/Your Turn/Enemy Turn/ect. using an array you can select multiple
points to activate this at. I also did create a sample of what I mean (I only spent about 5 minutes or so on this so it's
not perfect and may seem a little confusing) but this is what I made:

Spoiler:

Code:
=begin
  This is an example of what I would do for Effects, I can make any changes you wish
  You can add to this as you wish and or modify it. If you don't like this system,
  I can completely reconstruct this to Essential's style.
=end
class PokeBattle_Effects

  attr_accessor :type            # Integer -- 0 = card, 1 = move, 2 = ability
  attr_accessor :activation_type # Integer -- when to activate the effect (0= your turn, 1= enemy's turn, 2= coin flip, 3= before attack, 4= during attack, ect.)
  attr_accessor :hold_effect     # Integer -- how many turns to hold the effect
  attr_accessor :effect          # Integer -- 0 = damage, 1 = status, and so forth
  attr_accessor :effect_attribute# Integer -- how much damage?, which status?, ect.
  attr_accessor :chance          # Integer -- Percentage chance of the succes of the effect
  attr_accessor :custom_function # String  -- A string containing ruby code on what to execute (executes every time called)
  attr_accessor :activated       # Boolean -- Is this effect active?
  attr_accessor :turns           # Integer -- Maximum turns to hold the effect (auto selected by hold_effect)
  
  # startup of the class
  def initialize(type, activation_type, effect, hold_effect = 1, custom_function = "")
    @type = type
    @activation_type = activation_type
    @effect = effect
    @hold_effect = hold_effect
    @custom_function = custom_function
    @turns = hold_effect
  end
  
  # returns wether the ability is avaible to activate
  # if it is activatable it reset the activation turns (unless already active)
  def activatable?(a_type)
    @hold_effect = @turns if @activation_type == a_type && !@activated
    @activated = true if @activation_type == a_type && !@activated
    return @activation_type == a_type
  end
  
  # returns if the effect is currently active
  def updatable?
    return @activated
  end
  
  # updates and returns an array (the length will be 1 if it did not do anything)
  def update
    @hold_effect -= 1
    destroy = @hold_effect > 0
    ret = [destroy]
    if rand(100-@chance) == 0
      ret.push(effect)
      ret.push(effect_attributes)
      ret.push(eval(@custom_function)) if @custom_function != ""
    end
    return ret
  end
    
end



also, if you are going to read data ini-style like essentials does I made a small tool for this too:

Spoiler:


Code:
=begin
  Just a handy tool for reading ini files
  
  Reads ini files and stores them in data.
  
  You can get values like so:
  ini.read_value(section(string or int), variable(string or int), default(anything))
  returns the value of the ini you set, but returns default if it does not exist
=end


class IniReader
  attr_accessor :data
  def initialize(ini)
    array = IO.readlines(ini)
    @data = {}
    startoff_section = "["
    
    section_name = ""
    section_hash = {}
    for i in 0..array.length-1
      if array[i][0] == startoff_section[0]
        if i != 0
          @data[section_name] = section_hash
        end
        section_name = array[i].split("[")[1].split("]")[0]
      elsif array[i].count("=") != 0
        tary = array[i].split("=")
        value = ""
        for i in 0..tary.length-2
          value+=tary[i+1]
        end
        section_hash[tary[0]]=value
      end
    end
    @data[section_name] = section_hash
  end
  
  def read_value(section, variable, default=-1)
    section = "#{section}"
    variable = "#{variable}"
    if @data[section][variable] == nil
      ret = default
    else
      ret = @data[section][variable]
    end
    return ret
  end
  
end


n = IniReader.new("Game.ini")
print n.read_value("Game", "Title")


so if you have a different idea or have improvements for the PokeBattle_Effects class, let me know.
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  #42    
Old September 25th, 2012, 02:26 PM
Maruno's Avatar
Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
i have to apologize!
i just realized that the features i mentioned are nice and all but they are a pain to script right?
i will remove the "seen" marks from the card dex screen...
that the new cards are marked as "new" should be enough!
and the sorting system is unnecessary if its possible for you to make the filters you mentioned...


should the completion value shown in percent?
it would definitely look better and save some space...
Adding filters is the thing I'm not sure I'm able to do. A "seen" counter and list sorting are doable, and probably not too difficult. As I said, it's about deciding what's needed, and what people just want for the sake of wanting things. I don't think a "seen" counter is needed; you just want it because the Pokédex has it.

Completion should be in the form 86/102 rather than a percentage.

I've attached my tweaking to your design. I'm not sure about having the card icons there (which mean the same as in the GBC game; element symbols are for energy cards only), but it's a thought. I hope there's enough space for all possible card names.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
yeah i meant filters!
they are much better then just sorting the cards...
hope you will find a way to add this feature...

filters are often used in TCG video games like "Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's World Championship 2011" to sort your cards in your library and find the one you want to have in your deck...
here is a screen:
Spoiler:

i thought we could do the library something like this...
not as complicated but the structure should look similar...
of course we have to implement the top ds screen (where the card image is) to the bottom one...
maybe make it pop up if you click a button?
That's a huge mass of information there. I notice it just has the one pocket for cards, and displays the deck in a separate tab. That's why the filters are so important in the Yu-Gi-Oh! game: all the cards are shown at once, and only 4 are visible at a time. My game will separate owned cards into pockets (and show more cards at once), which drastically reduces the huge card lists. Large lists will still be a problem, but not as soon (for example, having all cards from Base Set, Jungle and Fossil make the biggest pocket the Grass Pokémon one, with 40-odd cards, which isn't that big considering). Basically, I'm trying to ignore the issue.

One of the things to decide upon when designing the Library is which pockets to have. I've just been assuming one per Pokémon card element plus the others (see my sketch). There may be alternatives.

Another thing to remember is that the player will be using the keyboard. This will affect the design. Remember also that, if possible, the game should fit a screen size of 256x192.

The top screen in your screenshot is simply the card summary screen, which is a separate screen to be designed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hansiec View Post
Alright, I did understand what you said there.

I prefer a signle class (PokeBattle_Effects) with different variables that will in the outcome suit every needed situation
and to make it more flexible add a custom_code segment which allows you to evaluate a custom code just for incase there are
some un-defined methods required within the effect

OR

We can do something simmilar to Essentials where we must create a code for every move (which is time more time consuming in
my opinion)

the PokeBattle_Effects class can store any type of effect: Move/Ability/Card and can be activated at selected points:
Turn Started/Turn Ended/Coin Flipped/Coin Heads/Coin Tales/Your Turn/Enemy Turn/ect. using an array you can select multiple
points to activate this at. I also did create a sample of what I mean (I only spent about 5 minutes or so on this so it's
not perfect and may seem a little confusing) but this is what I made:

Spoiler:

Code:
=begin
  This is an example of what I would do for Effects, I can make any changes you wish
  You can add to this as you wish and or modify it. If you don't like this system,
  I can completely reconstruct this to Essential's style.
=end
class PokeBattle_Effects

  attr_accessor :type            # Integer -- 0 = card, 1 = move, 2 = ability
  attr_accessor :activation_type # Integer -- when to activate the effect (0= your turn, 1= enemy's turn, 2= coin flip, 3= before attack, 4= during attack, ect.)
  attr_accessor :hold_effect     # Integer -- how many turns to hold the effect
  attr_accessor :effect          # Integer -- 0 = damage, 1 = status, and so forth
  attr_accessor :effect_attribute# Integer -- how much damage?, which status?, ect.
  attr_accessor :chance          # Integer -- Percentage chance of the succes of the effect
  attr_accessor :custom_function # String  -- A string containing ruby code on what to execute (executes every time called)
  attr_accessor :activated       # Boolean -- Is this effect active?
  attr_accessor :turns           # Integer -- Maximum turns to hold the effect (auto selected by hold_effect)
  
  # startup of the class
  def initialize(type, activation_type, effect, hold_effect = 1, custom_function = "")
    @type = type
    @activation_type = activation_type
    @effect = effect
    @hold_effect = hold_effect
    @custom_function = custom_function
    @turns = hold_effect
  end
  
  # returns wether the ability is avaible to activate
  # if it is activatable it reset the activation turns (unless already active)
  def activatable?(a_type)
    @hold_effect = @turns if @activation_type == a_type && !@activated
    @activated = true if @activation_type == a_type && !@activated
    return @activation_type == a_type
  end
  
  # returns if the effect is currently active
  def updatable?
    return @activated
  end
  
  # updates and returns an array (the length will be 1 if it did not do anything)
  def update
    @hold_effect -= 1
    destroy = @hold_effect > 0
    ret = [destroy]
    if rand(100-@chance) == 0
      ret.push(effect)
      ret.push(effect_attributes)
      ret.push(eval(@custom_function)) if @custom_function != ""
    end
    return ret
  end
    
end
Your first suggestion is meaningless, since it isn't a solution in itself but just a restating of the problem. The only relevant part is where you imply that there's only one kind of function code, which covers any and all possible effects of anything.

Basically, how do you know which effect a particular card has? You can either code in an effect which happens only when the card is XYZ, or you can define the card to have a function code and then code in an effect which happens for any card with that function code. I'm suggesting the latter, since it allows for reusing of some common card effects (e.g. "Flip a coin and paralyse the target if Heads.").

There will be an equivalent of PokeBattle_Effects, which contains some of the more common effects that can happen (e.g. paralysing a Pokémon). However, putting every single possible effect in here is pointless, as most will only be used for one card and may as well go in PokeBattle_MoveEffects under the appropriate function code.

No, I think having a PokeBattle_MoveEffects for card effects (probably one for an attack's effect and one for any other kind of effect), plus creating a PokeBattle_Move entity for each attack and effect when the card is played (and remaining while the card is still in play) is the best option I can think of. It may use elements of your code.

I'm sure I'm not explaining this fully enough, but I have a vague picture in my head. It's a complicated picture. It'd be easier if there were no effects in the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hansiec View Post
also, if you are going to read data ini-style like essentials does I made a small tool for this too:

Spoiler:


Code:
=begin
  Just a handy tool for reading ini files
  
  Reads ini files and stores them in data.
  
  You can get values like so:
  ini.read_value(section(string or int), variable(string or int), default(anything))
  returns the value of the ini you set, but returns default if it does not exist
=end


class IniReader
  attr_accessor :data
  def initialize(ini)
    array = IO.readlines(ini)
    @data = {}
    startoff_section = "["
    
    section_name = ""
    section_hash = {}
    for i in 0..array.length-1
      if array[i][0] == startoff_section[0]
        if i != 0
          @data[section_name] = section_hash
        end
        section_name = array[i].split("[")[1].split("]")[0]
      elsif array[i].count("=") != 0
        tary = array[i].split("=")
        value = ""
        for i in 0..tary.length-2
          value+=tary[i+1]
        end
        section_hash[tary[0]]=value
      end
    end
    @data[section_name] = section_hash
  end
  
  def read_value(section, variable, default=-1)
    section = "#{section}"
    variable = "#{variable}"
    if @data[section][variable] == nil
      ret = default
    else
      ret = @data[section][variable]
    end
    return ret
  end
  
end


n = IniReader.new("Game.ini")
print n.read_value("Game", "Title")


so if you have a different idea or have improvements for the PokeBattle_Effects class, let me know.
I've already made scripts which compile the new PBS files and access that data, so I don't think I need to muck around with any ini files. I'm not sure why you mentioned this.
Attached Thumbnails
Card Dex concept.png‎  
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  #43    
Old September 25th, 2012, 04:37 PM
the__end's Avatar
the__end
Pixel Artist
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I've attached my tweaking to your design. I'm not sure about having the card icons there (which mean the same as in the GBC game; element symbols are for energy cards only), but it's a thought. I hope there's enough space for all possible card names.
hmm ok i will make it similar to this...
and it will be possible to few the card summary screen from the card dex screen right?
if yes the card icons are unnecessary because you can see the card types in the card summary...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
That's a huge mass of information there. I notice it just has the one pocket for cards, and displays the deck in a separate tab. That's why the filters are so important in the Yu-Gi-Oh! game: all the cards are shown at once, and only 4 are visible at a time. My game will separate owned cards into pockets (and show more cards at once), which drastically reduces the huge card lists. Large lists will still be a problem, but not as soon (for example, having all cards from Base Set, Jungle and Fossil make the biggest pocket the Grass Pokémon one, with 40-odd cards, which isn't that big considering). Basically, I'm trying to ignore the issue.
actually the 1873 cards shown in the screen are the cards i own...
the cards i dont own arent shown there...
but i understand what you mean...
if more cards are shown at once and there are less cards there is no need for that many filters right?
you are right...
this is an issue that can be talked about after it becomes a problem because it will take some time until then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
One of the things to decide upon when designing the Library is which pockets to have. I've just been assuming one per Pokémon card element plus the others (see my sketch). There may be alternatives.
i will most likely add alternatives and remove them if you dont like them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Another thing to remember is that the player will be using the keyboard. This will affect the design. Remember also that, if possible, the game should fit a screen size of 256x192.
the usage of the keyboard i have always in mind...
what wonders me is the screen size...
the essentials screen is 512x384 right?
i know it uses double size graphics but i didnt thought it have to use them...
is it possible to show an image with the size of 276x380 (max. card size that would fit without changing card proportions) completely in the current essentials screen?
or does it need to be half the size so the game can double it (which includes much quality loss) to show it completely?
hope i could explain what i mean...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
It'd be easier if there were no effects in the game.
i dont know much about scripting but if the effects are that annoying just make a working version without effects and add the effects one after another...
changing existing effects to fit with the newly added effect is maybe easier than making many effects at the same time so that they will work together...
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Old September 26th, 2012, 03:29 AM
FL's Avatar
FL
Pokémon Island Creator
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Gender: Male
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
I've attached my very poor attempt at a Library screen, just so you have an idea of what I was thinking of. If you have a better layout, go for it. You'll certainly have better graphics.
I liked your idea, having the text small provides more space! I suggest you to put the horizontal type bar as a vertical bar to a better use of this space, and, maybe, remove the pokémon level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
No, I think having a PokeBattle_MoveEffects for card effects (probably one for an attack's effect and one for any other kind of effect), plus creating a PokeBattle_Move entity for each attack and effect when the card is played (and remaining while the card is still in play) is the best option I can think of. It may use elements of your code.
I thought in something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
hmm ok i will make it similar to this...
and it will be possible to few the card summary screen from the card dex screen right?
if yes the card icons are unnecessary because you can see the card types in the card summary...
I like theses icons, but do a color revamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
One of the things to decide upon when designing the Library is which pockets to have. I've just been assuming one per Pokémon card element plus the others (see my sketch). There may be alternatives.
Put one pocket for each subtype and one for "All". For others, use search filters.


I suggest you to take a look in the online game Dueling Network to gather ideas/concepts.
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Last edited by FL; September 26th, 2012 at 03:37 AM.
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  #45    
Old September 26th, 2012, 05:10 AM
Maruno's Avatar
Maruno
Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: England
Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
hmm ok i will make it similar to this...
and it will be possible to few the card summary screen from the card dex screen right?
if yes the card icons are unnecessary because you can see the card types in the card summary...
Of course it will be possible to view the card details screen from the Card Dex. I just thought the icons might make the screen look a bit less dull. There's also the possibility of including the rarity icons somewhere, and/or colouring in card names depending on their rarity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
the usage of the keyboard i have always in mind...
what wonders me is the screen size...
the essentials screen is 512x384 right?
i know it uses double size graphics but i didnt thought it have to use them...
is it possible to show an image with the size of 276x380 (max. card size that would fit without changing card proportions) completely in the current essentials screen?
or does it need to be half the size so the game can double it (which includes much quality loss) to show it completely?
hope i could explain what i mean...
Yes, Essentials has a 512x384 screen. However, it also has the option of halving this, and playing at 256x192, which means if graphics aren't made to suit this smaller size, they'll look odd when they're shrunk. I know, only a prat would play at the smaller size, but I'd still like for the screens to suit those dimensions if possible.

You're still assuming that the card information screen will be nothing more than displaying a screen-filling image of the entire card at once. That screen's design hasn't been decided yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
I liked your idea, having the text small provides more space! I suggest you to put the horizontal type bar as a vertical bar to a better use of this space, and, maybe, remove the pokémon level.

I like theses icons, but do a color revamp.

Put one pocket for each subtype and one for "All". For others, use search filters.
The text is only that small because I ripped it straight from a screenshot of the GBC game, just for the sake of demonstration. All text will be regular size and font unless otherwise necessary. The same goes for the icons. I'm bad at creating graphics.

The pocket icons in the Library only just fit horizontally. They probably won't fit vertically, and even if they did, they would take up valuable horizontal space which could be used for displaying long card names (I'd like to know what the longest card name is).

You don't seem to understand how pockets work. The pockets physically exist, with cards physically inside each of them; they're not a filter on one big list of cards. A particular card cannot appear in multiple pockets. I don't even think there's any need at all for an "All cards" pocket.
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  #46    
Old September 26th, 2012, 06:20 AM
Awkward Squirtle
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I have a couple of suggestions.

First, ditch the deck editing layout from the Game Boy game. It's a real pain to work with to make decks - you can't see your actual decklist anywhere while editing. This makes stuff like adding energy cards to the deck annoying, since you don't have a list of how many Pokémon of each type you're using.

Since this is going to only be playable on a PC, you should make use of its advantages. For example, use RMXP's full resolution instead of the DS's tiny screen size - you'll be able to fit more on the screen, and card images will be easier to read. Also, try to implement mouse controls; it's much easier just to hover your mouse over a card to see what it does, or drag it to move it between your library and your deck, than to use the keyboard for the same things.

Take a look at some PC versions of TCGs and how their interfaces work. Figure out their problems and how to fix them; use the things that work in your own game. For example, the ones I've played show both your library and your decklist at the same time on the deck editing screen, side by side. They also allow you to filter the list of visible cards in various ways, such as by card type or expansion set. Filtering in particular I don't think I could live without; I know you want to organise the cards into pockets, but what if I want to find a Stage 1 Pokémon capable of doing at least 80 damage with one attack, regardless of type? With your plan, I'd have to manually search through hundreds, possibly thousands, of cards.

I second the 'recipes' suggestion. The main thing I didn't like about the Game Boy game was that if I wanted to use my Double Colorless Energy cards in a new deck, I'd have to remove them from the deck that's using them first; a waste of time, especially since I'd have to move them back if I wanted to go back to that deck.
Discarding/trading/etc cards isn't a big problem - after each discard/trade/etc, go through each decklist, and if they contain any cards in a greater quantity than you actually have, fix it. This means you can trade cards that are currently in a deck too, which is a nice thing to be able to do.

In regards to acquiring cards, I think it would be best to let the developer decide whether to use currency or just get cards after winning. On the note of acquiring cards, please implement a switch that gives the player access to unlimited quantities of every card in the game, or at least a command that gives the player 4 of each card (and 60 of each Basic Energy/Arceus card). Some people want to earn their cards themselves, while others (like me) just want to build decks. I understand if you don't want to put this in, though!

I would try to simulate the card game as closely as possible, so things like Pokémon Powers and Abilities would stay as they are. It wouldn't be impossible for someone using the kit to change this if they wanted to.

I made a small start in implementing a Pokémon TCG system, and one of the things I found troublesome was deciding whether you have enough Energy to use an attack. With only Basic Energy cards or only single-type attack costs, this is easy. But once you start to include attacks that require multiple types and Energy cards that provide several types, it's a bit trickier. For example, say your Pokémon has a Rainbow Energy and a Darkness Metal Energy attached, and you want to use an attack that costs 1 Darkness and 1 Fire. A human player will tell you it's OK, but a computer will need to figure out that the Rainbow Energy must be used as the Fire requirement rather than the Darkness requirement. I haven't really thought about it that much; can you figure something out?
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  #47    
Old September 26th, 2012, 06:28 AM
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FL
Pokémon Island Creator
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
The text is only that small because I ripped it straight from a screenshot of the GBC game, just for the sake of demonstration. All text will be regular size and font unless otherwise necessary. The same goes for the icons. I'm bad at creating graphics.

The pocket icons in the Library only just fit horizontally. They probably won't fit vertically, and even if they did, they would take up valuable horizontal space which could be used for displaying long card names (I'd like to know what the longest card name is).
If the longest card have a great name (like more than 40 characters), consider putting "..." in some card names that have more that 20-30 characters, with full name restricted to card details.

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Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
You don't seem to understand how pockets work. The pockets physically exist, with cards physically inside each of them; they're not a filter on one big list of cards. A particular card cannot appear in multiple pockets. I don't even think there's any need at all for an "All cards" pocket.
I know this, but if you have only type filters (yes, I know that this is an example), this have the same effect. Please note that is very easy to get lost with a huge number of cards, several filters are necessary.
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  #48    
Old September 26th, 2012, 07:53 AM
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the__end
Pixel Artist
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
Yes, Essentials has a 512x384 screen. However, it also has the option of halving this, and playing at 256x192, which means if graphics aren't made to suit this smaller size, they'll look odd when they're shrunk. I know, only a prat would play at the smaller size, but I'd still like for the screens to suit those dimensions if possible.

You're still assuming that the card information screen will be nothing more than displaying a screen-filling image of the entire card at once. That screen's design hasn't been decided yet.
well cards cant be made to suit the smaller size without losing important details...
and this kit should be compatible with essentials and not copy anything essentials has right?
imo this kit should have the screen size of 512x384 and if people want to add this kit to essentials they have to use essentials at 512x384 screen size as well...

and i dont assume that only the cards will be displayed on the card info screen...
if we insert the cards on the right (or left) side of the info screen in the size i suggested there will be enough space (almost half of the screen) where more stuff can be written/shown/added...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
Since this is going to only be playable on a PC, you should make use of its advantages. For example, use RMXP's full resolution instead of the DS's tiny screen size - you'll be able to fit more on the screen, and card images will be easier to read. Also, try to implement mouse controls; it's much easier just to hover your mouse over a card to see what it does, or drag it to move it between your library and your deck, than to use the keyboard for the same things.
you forget that this kit will be compatible with essentials...
so adding full screen and mouse control will most likely not implemented...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
They also allow you to filter the list of visible cards in various ways, such as by card type or expansion set. Filtering in particular I don't think I could live without; I know you want to organise the cards into pockets, but what if I want to find a Stage 1 Pokémon capable of doing at least 80 damage with one attack, regardless of type? With your plan, I'd have to manually search through hundreds, possibly thousands, of cards.
i agree with you that filters are important but i think adding them at the beginning of the kit would make things more complicated then they need to be...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
If the longest card have a great name (like more than 40 characters), consider putting "..." in some card names that have more that 20-30 characters, with full name restricted to card details.
for to long names using a smaller font would be the best way to solve the problem...
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  #49    
Old September 26th, 2012, 08:49 AM
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Maruno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
First, ditch the deck editing layout from the Game Boy game. It's a real pain to work with to make decks - you can't see your actual decklist anywhere while editing. This makes stuff like adding energy cards to the deck annoying, since you don't have a list of how many Pokémon of each type you're using.
If you have a better design in mind, show me. Don't just say "I don't like this design" without offering an alternative. For the one specific gripe you mentioned, a number next to each pocket's icon could indicate how many cards in that pocket are in one's deck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
Since this is going to only be playable on a PC, you should make use of its advantages. For example, use RMXP's full resolution instead of the DS's tiny screen size - you'll be able to fit more on the screen, and card images will be easier to read. Also, try to implement mouse controls; it's much easier just to hover your mouse over a card to see what it does, or drag it to move it between your library and your deck, than to use the keyboard for the same things.
You're missing the point that I'm making this as an add-on to Essentials (because it has useful code I want to use). I'm restricted by what Essentials does (i.e. screen size, no mouse). If you're suggesting that I turn it into a standalone project, then say so. And if that's the case, I might as well make it in Java or something free and even less restrictive, and etc. etc. I need to stop somewhere, and all I know is Essentials, so it might as well be there.

If there's an existing project I can contribute to instead, let me know and I'll consider jumping ship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
Take a look at some PC versions of TCGs and how their interfaces work. Figure out their problems and how to fix them; use the things that work in your own game. For example, the ones I've played show both your library and your decklist at the same time on the deck editing screen, side by side. They also allow you to filter the list of visible cards in various ways, such as by card type or expansion set. Filtering in particular I don't think I could live without; I know you want to organise the cards into pockets, but what if I want to find a Stage 1 Pokémon capable of doing at least 80 damage with one attack, regardless of type? With your plan, I'd have to manually search through hundreds, possibly thousands, of cards.
Why would you ever need to search for such a card? The way I understand the card game, you make decks based around elements, so having Pokémon cards arranged by element is a good start. I've already said I want to ignore anything further than that for now.

Please bear in mind that I'm not a genius who can just whip up anything he wants but is choosing to restrict himself just for the sake of it. I'm lacking in many areas of knowledge, and any restrictions I have are to make my life easier and to avoid areas I know I'm not capable of tackling. I don't have experience with filters or list sorting.

Once again, if you can think of a better system, show it to me rather than make offhanded comments along the lines of "system X is better because of a vaguely described feature whose relevance and importance to your project isn't even explained or justified".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
I second the 'recipes' suggestion. The main thing I didn't like about the Game Boy game was that if I wanted to use my Double Colorless Energy cards in a new deck, I'd have to remove them from the deck that's using them first; a waste of time, especially since I'd have to move them back if I wanted to go back to that deck.
Discarding/trading/etc cards isn't a big problem - after each discard/trade/etc, go through each decklist, and if they contain any cards in a greater quantity than you actually have, fix it. This means you can trade cards that are currently in a deck too, which is a nice thing to be able to do.
Decks are already recipes. You cannot get rid of a card if it is being used in a deck. A deck is not allowed to be incomplete, for simplicity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
In regards to acquiring cards, I think it would be best to let the developer decide whether to use currency or just get cards after winning. On the note of acquiring cards, please implement a switch that gives the player access to unlimited quantities of every card in the game, or at least a command that gives the player 4 of each card (and 60 of each Basic Energy/Arceus card). Some people want to earn their cards themselves, while others (like me) just want to build decks. I understand if you don't want to put this in, though!

I would try to simulate the card game as closely as possible, so things like Pokémon Powers and Abilities would stay as they are. It wouldn't be impossible for someone using the kit to change this if they wanted to.
I'd rather have something that exists and works first, before trying to cater to people just wanting a duel simulator. I don't think I ever would anyway, because that's not a game and it's not what I want to make.

Of course it will work as much like the TCG as possible; otherwise there's no point saying it's a TCG-based game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Awkward Squirtle View Post
I made a small start in implementing a Pokémon TCG system, and one of the things I found troublesome was deciding whether you have enough Energy to use an attack. With only Basic Energy cards or only single-type attack costs, this is easy. But once you start to include attacks that require multiple types and Energy cards that provide several types, it's a bit trickier. For example, say your Pokémon has a Rainbow Energy and a Darkness Metal Energy attached, and you want to use an attack that costs 1 Darkness and 1 Fire. A human player will tell you it's OK, but a computer will need to figure out that the Rainbow Energy must be used as the Fire requirement rather than the Darkness requirement. I haven't really thought about it that much; can you figure something out?
I store attack costs in an array (e.g. [Fire,Fire,Colorless]). When checking whether a cost can be met, I would create a "cost pool" from this, and an "energy pool" from the attached energies (Rainbow counts as Rainbow for now, but some other energy-providing effects are counted). I would then delete energy pairs from each pool. From what's left in the cost pool, remove one per Rainbow energy (this is the final step; other Energy cards like Blend Energy should be considered before it, as they're more limited). In the end, if the cost pool is empty, you can afford it.

It's just a matter of considering the most restricted energy providers first (Fire Energy can only provide 1 Fire) and the least restricted last (Rainbow can provide 1 anything).

For attack effects along the lines of "+10 damage per attached Water energy not used to pay for this attack", that amount could probably be calculated afterwards, using what's left in the energy pool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FL . View Post
If the longest card have a great name (like more than 40 characters), consider putting "..." in some card names that have more that 20-30 characters, with full name restricted to card details.

I know this, but if you have only type filters (yes, I know that this is an example), this have the same effect. Please note that is very easy to get lost with a huge number of cards, several filters are necessary.
It's quicker to start with pockets as I've described than to apply a filter you're probably going to use anyway.

I'm still ignoring filters for now, anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by the__end View Post
well cards cant be made to suit the smaller size without losing important details...
and this kit should be compatible with essentials and not copy anything essentials has right?
imo this kit should have the screen size of 512x384 and if people want to add this kit to essentials they have to use essentials at 512x384 screen size as well...

and i dont assume that only the cards will be displayed on the card info screen...
if we insert the cards on the right (or left) side of the info screen in the size i suggested there will be enough space (almost half of the screen) where more stuff can be written/shown/added...
You could still have the big graphics, but show only the top or bottom half at once (like in Asobikata but alternating/scrolling between its two screens). That's an example of how to overcome your concern; whether it's a good design or not is irrelevant, because it's a design you didn't suggest (proving that you're still stuck on the idea of the entirety of the card being shown at once). Think outside the box and consider all possibilities, even bad ones.
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  #50    
Old September 26th, 2012, 09:42 AM
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the__end
Pixel Artist
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruno View Post
You could still have the big graphics, but show only the top or bottom half at once (like in Asobikata but alternating/scrolling between its two screens). That's an example of how to overcome your concern; whether it's a good design or not is irrelevant, because it's a design you didn't suggest (proving that you're still stuck on the idea of the entirety of the card being shown at once). Think outside the box and consider all possibilities, even bad ones.
well you won...
i just told you my opinion of the easiest way to show the cards with the best possible quality...
but if you think that there is a better way or that someone will find a better way its fine with me...

and it would work only limited if you "cut" the cards in two halves because you just considered the height of the screen...
the half card would take the complete width of the screen (it dont even fit completely) without leaving space to add anything else...
i know that you are just giving examples for showing me that there could be alternative ways...
but imo there arent without giving up on other things...
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