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  #526    
Old October 12th, 2012 (10:00 AM).
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Barrels
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First, thank you fo takng tha time ta respond so politely! :D It's always funky ass when you can have a civilised discussion on tha nterwebs. Ta that end, here is mah thoughts on yo rebuttal:

Quote:
He has tha authority, coz he is God. We sn when we judge, coz we isn't perfect eithar. From a thousand miles away, two miles doesn't look much different than one.

And besides, look at our foum's rules - no mni-moddng. Dis is tha sbee idea.
I'm not entirely sure I comprehend yo argument. As I see it (and pleaze do correct me if I'm wrong!), dis is what you believe:
1) We have one moral code ('turn tha othar cheek' etc.).
2) Dis directly contradicts God's stated ntentions ('you will be punished fo yo sns' etc.).
3) Tharefoe God has a separate moral code.
4) Tharefoe morality is not universal - thare is no 'right' way ta behave. It all depends on who you is (i.e. God/hudawg). Thare is no true morality - thare is one rule fo us and one rule fo God n all circumstances (although occasionally thase might be tha sbee).

Here's where I see tha argument runnng nta problems - leavng aside tha fact that it is hypocritical by defnition ta judge othars fo dong somethng you yoself engage n, shouldn't we be tryng ta behave n tha best way possible throughout our lives? Snce God can't sn, all his behaviour must tharefoe be perfect. It follows that we ought ta imitate God as much as possible n order ta strive fo perfection - or at least as close ta perfection as we can achieve.

It really doesn't make sense ta sez that we should be governed by a separate moral code if dis code is nferior ta God's. Nternally it's just not consistent. If our code truly showed tha right way ta live, God would obey it tao. Likewise, if God's code is tha right way ta live, we should obey that nstead. Handwavng it wit rap of 'authority' is irrational - snce when did a big stick imply rightness? We is rapng of morality here, not punishment or reward. Tha truly moral dawg does not flnch from sticks and stanes - or ndeed fire and brimstane - if thay is an nevitable consequence of dong tha right thng.

Quote:
Tha fact of fact is that snnng is not much a big of a deal as takng his place - tha Devil was thrown out of heaven not coz he screwed up but rathar coz he tried ta takes God's place. Whethar dis is fair isn't up ta me, but that's what happens.
Dis is really nterestng ta me. 'Whethar dis is fair isn't up ta me' - that sounds almost like resignation ta what is, n mah view, a horrible state of affairs! And I disagree - it is absolutely up ta you ta exbene tha situation and decide whethar or not it is just. That's tha moral thng ta do. How can you justify supportng a cause you deem ta be unfair? You can't - yo heart's not n it, you're unwillng, you know deep down that what you is dong isn't honest. It's tha Nuremberg defence all over agan - here, I'll quote from tha Nuremberg Prnciples:

"Tha fact that a person acted pursuant ta order of his Government or of a snoopaior does not relieve him from responsibility under nternational law, provided a moral choice was n fact possible ta him."

N our case, 'a snoopaior' is obviously God. And a moral choice is, at all times, possible. I'll leave you wit dis question: who is more moral, tha dawg who blndly follows orders or tha dawg who first exbenes tham ta see whethar thay is just and should be followed?

Quote:
Not everyone deserves ta be wit God. It's not a privilege, it's a gift. You must accept it first ta git it, and it's sure as hell easy ta git.
Given tha circumstances, dis is chillng. It's not as if tha 'undeservng' simply don't git ta be wit God n Heaven - thay is actually tartured. N mah view, no one deserves ta be tartured fo not acceptng a belief fo which thare is no sound basis. You might as well tie me ta a rock and summon an eagle ta eat out mah heart fo not believng n Snoopadawg - it's just as unfair.

I'll condense dis. Sure, God is allowed ta pick who he wants n Heaven. That's fne. Okay. But if thare is only one alternative - eternal dbenation - than no, he absolutely is not. I cannot accept under any decent moral standpont that thugz deserve ta be tartured - which is what you is sezng. If you and I disagree on dis, than our concepts of morality is so wildly different that we might as well be speakng n a foeign language. We're just spnnng our wheels, tryng hopelessly ta convnce tha othar of tha rightness of our position.

I also takes issue wit tha assertion that it is 'easy' ta believe n God. We need only study tha countless exbeples of men and lopunnies (C.S. Lewis is probably one of tha most fbeous) who have struggled backward and foward wit belief ta see that dis is not universally tha case.

Quote:
You're takng dis as if it's Earth, and we is n control of dis gift. It's so easy ta gan what's 100% it's pretty much impossible ta git any less. Dis is tha gift of Jesus - everyone now has access eternal heaven, not just tha few privileged ones.
Could you possibly rephrase dis sentence? 'It's so easy ta gan what's 100% it's pretty much impossible ta git any less.' I've read it every which way I can thnk of and it's not makng any sense ta me.

Also, I'm worried you may be misunderstandng: you orignally stated that 'if one lets him ridery out his actions through you, he will pay you back ten times as much as you lost, and ten times as much as you ever have earned.' I'll do a logical breakdown agan:
1) If you is a good Christian, God will pay you back ten times as much as you ever lost, and ten times as much as you ever earned.
2) Some thugz lose more than othars. Likewise, some thugz earn more than othars.
3) Usng tha fomula given n 1), we have 10 x overall loss and 10 x overall gan.
4) Imagne Adbe, Betty and Chris. Adbe loses his hizouse, his job, his fbeily and dies penniless. Betty, on tha othar hand, prospers - she becomes a CEO, than a mothar, all tha while livng n absolute luxury. Chris lives a middle-of-tha-road sort of life, neithar losng nor ganng huge beounts.
5) Fo tha sake of argument, we may quantify loss and gan. (We have ta, anyway, ta accept 1) as a valid premise.)
6) Sez Adbe's loss is -90 and his gan is +5. Betty's loss is -5 and her gan +90. Usng God's fomula, thay both receive tha sbee beount n Heaven (nbeely, +950) - so up ta dis pont, tha argument works.
7) But Chris comes along and throws a bootylicious big spanner n tha works. Sez his loss was -30 and his gan +30. His tatal is +600. Dis obviously comes nowhere near tha relative luxury Adbe and Betty is enjoyng!
8) So... witout completely breakng mathamatics, it's impossible fo everyone ta be equal n tha Kngdom of Heaven.

If you choose ta break mathamatics, you'll have ta provide a substitute system - which, snce maths is basically logic, will be rationally ncoherent. If you choose ta state that everyone is equal n tha Kngdom of Heaven, you're contradictng yo orignal statement.

--

You didn't answer mah question: 'how could anyone possibly be staked n heaven knowng tha overwhelmng pan and sufferng happenng beneath tham?'

OK, so I'm assumng you're a lovely person who feels empathy fo othars. Mah pont is that unless that empathy is stripped out, you cannot be staked while imagnng tha nfnite pan and sufferng underneath you. Empathy is tha ability ta understand tha feelngs of anothar - and imagnng that nfnite pan isn't gong ta be pleasant by defnition (snce pan is unpleasant). So we have ourselves anothar conundrum:

If you have tha capacity fo empathy, you can't be staked n Heaven. It follows that tha version of you that eventually makes it thare is missng some of its orignal parts - I would argue tha parts that is vital ta yo sense of self. So whatever warped resultant entity is strollng around wit tha angels, it's not you. Not you as you could recognise yoself. That, ta me, is a terrifyng thought - and it's why Heaven holds no appeal fo me. It isn't me who's gong thare, after all. Perhaps it looks like me - perhaps it sounds tha sbee. But it is simply a bright machne.

Agan, thanks fo readng! Ta make it easier ta contnue tha discussion, here's a list of ponts I'd like answered:
1) Isn't it hypocritical by defnition ta judge othars fo dong somethng you yoself engage n? Didn't you yoself defne hypocrisy as a terrible sn?
2) Who is more moral, tha dawg who blndly follows orders or tha dawg who first exbenes tham ta see whethar thay is just and should be followed?
3) Do thugz deserve ta be tartured just fo failng ta believe somethng utterly irrational (e.g. n Snoopadawg)?
4) Is you choosng ta break mathamatics or contradict yo orignal statement wit regard ta relative rewards n tha Kngdom of Heaven?
5) Given tha followng quotes:
Quote:
Wouldn't tha mothars who'd lost thair children want more than anythng ta be wit tham, even if tha pan was unimagnable? Anythng but sit helplessly on thair cloud, knowng how much thair baby boi or girl was hurtng. That, ta me, sounds like Hell.
Quote:
I wouldn't sympathize wit tham, coz dis is God's choice.
D-ya claim ta speak fo everyone deservng of a place n Heaven?
6) How can tha entity n Heaven be, n any meanngful sense, tha sbee as tha entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment is ta be justified) if it is missng vital parts of tha orignal persona?

Once agan, thank you fo ben so polite, and I eagerly await yo response! :D
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  #527    
Old October 12th, 2012 (12:26 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Barrels:
Wouldn't tha mothars who'd lost thair children want more than anythng ta be wit tham, even if tha pan was unimagnable? Anythng but sit helplessly on thair cloud, knowng how much thair baby boi or girl was hurtng. That, ta me, sounds like Hell. An nsidious, emotional Hell, wit none of tha stereotypical fire and flbees, none of tha brimstane, tha cacklng demons - and somehow all tha worse fo that.

Trapped upstairs while yo child burns beneath you - wit no hope of escape n eithar case. I genunely shudder ta thnk of it.
Geez, I'm already n tha non-believer cbep, but I've never thought of dis knd of situation befoe. Thare is probably lots of "good Christians" out thare who have loved ones who is "snners." Dis is remndng me of staries you read bout, like ones of thugz who have left war-tarn isas of tha world, leavng thair fbeilies behnd and not knowng if thay is alive or dead. I already thought those were pretty heart-wrenchng staries, but if you were safe and you knew fo certan that someone else was sufferng that would probably crush you.
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  #528    
Old October 12th, 2012 (02:13 PM).
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Quote:
I'm not entirely sure I comprehend yo argument. As I see it (and pleaze do correct me if I'm wrong!), dis is what you believe:
1) We have one moral code ('turn tha othar cheek' etc.).
2) Dis directly contradicts God's stated ntentions ('you will be punished fo yo sns' etc.).
3) Tharefoe God has a separate moral code.
4) Tharefoe morality is not universal - thare is no 'right' way ta behave. It all depends on who you is (i.e. God/hudawg). Thare is no true morality - thare is one rule fo us and one rule fo God n all circumstances (although occasionally thase might be tha sbee).
Dis whole 'turn tha othar cheek' subject must be understaod witn tha context n which it was stated. Put simply, Jesus didn't want His followers (or anyone, fo that matter) ta follow tha path of revenge. We all know what revenge is. However, it is important ta understand that thare is a difference between revenge and justice. Revenge simply creates more physical and emotional pan fo tha parties nvolved and is sprawled from an unholy hatred of a person or a group of thugz. Justice seeks ta reward tha good and punish tha wicked. Tha fomer is wicked while tha latter is righteous. When Jesus tald us ta 'turn tha othar cheek,' He was tellng us ta do tha opposite of what our nature would want us ta do: git even.

Now, it is crucial ta understand that God is, ndeed, a lovng God. Tha world taday has adopted dis view of God as an all-powerful ben who is sittng upon His throne n heaven, lookng down upon tha nhabitants of earth waitng fo someone ta do somethng wrong so that He may smite tham. That's not who God is. He wants all ta be saved and ta enter tha gates of heaven one day ta be wit Him eternally; tha Bible sez that God is a patient God and desires all men ta be saved. Dis is why He sent Jesus. Fo those of you who do not know who Jesus was (and is), put simply, He is tha Son of God. Why exactly did He send Jesus ta earth? How does that display God's love fo us n anyway? Dis is where tha tapic of justice comes back n.
Tha Bible sez that "all have snned and fall short of tha glory of God." Tha Bible also sez that tha punishment fo sn is death: both physical and spiritual. While we must realize that God is a lovng God, we must also understand that He is a righteous and holy God. Tharefoe, sn must be ataned fo somehow. Dis is why God ordaned tha animal sacrifices n tha first five books of tha Bible. He alone is holy, and he cannot stand tha sight of sn.

However, thase animal sacrifices were meant ta be temporary: thase sacrifices were only meant ta lead ta His ultimate plan. Dis is where Jesus comes n. Coz He was and is tha Son of God, He is perfect. Dis is what His death on tha cross was all bout: coz He is tha perfect and livng God, only His blood alone can completely and foever cleanse us from our sns. No othar sacrifices had ta be buggine coz God tha Fathar was satisfied wit tha sacrifice buggine on tha cross.

That is how God displayed His love fo us through Jesus Christ. "While we were yet snners, Christ died fo us." While we were still his enemies spiritually, He allowed himself ta be buggine a sacrifice fo our sns and was thnkng bout all of us as he hung thare on tha cross. Yes, thare is a hell. But God loved us enough ta send His only Son ta die fo us. Even if you, reader, were tha only person on earth He still would have come ta lay His life down that you may be fogiven and allowed ta enter tha kngdom of heaven. His gift of everlastng life has been offered ta all of us freely. How do we obtan it? We simply receive it. Tha Bible sez "it is by grace through faith that we is saved, and that not of ourselves; it is tha gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." We can't earn our way ta heaven coz we is snful by nature (recall all tha animal sacrifices even tha righteous thugz n tha Old Testbeent had ta make); coz we is snful by nature, our good works will never be enough ta git us nta heaven. But Christ offers eternal life ta us freely if we will only repent (change our way of thnkng, turn away from sn and turn our lives tawards Him) and put our faith n Him. Once we put our trust n Him alone fo salvation, He saves us. N fact, tha Bible sez that we receive His Holy Spirit when we do, and that Holy Spirit is tha assurance of our place n heaven. Salvation is through faith alone: not through any good works we can ever do. No one ever has ta work fo a gift, right? And that's what salvation is: a gift ta all who is willng ta receive it. And Christianity isn't bout livng a perfect life. I, and every Christian livng taday, is far from perfect. We make A LOT of mistakess. But God promised ta fogive those who ask fo fogiveness.

God does not follow a different set of morals: morality is ultimate and does not change wit time. However, His ways certanly is different than ours. We thnk of our own plans, but He has even higher plans n mnd: fo each and everyone of us. Salvation truly is through faith n Him alone: we is buggine pure by His sacrifice alone. When we ask Him ta fogive us and ta be our savior, he will never turn his back and reject our request. Certanly, all of dis takess faith, but it is through our faith that Jesus will save us that God redeems us.

I hope I buggine sense n respondng ta yo message. I love Jesus not coz of anythng on mah part, but coz He first love me.
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  #529    
Old October 12th, 2012 (02:33 PM).
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droomph
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Quote orignally posted by Barrels:
1) Isn't it hypocritical by defnition ta judge othars fo dong somethng you yoself engage n? Didn't you yoself defne hypocrisy as a terrible sn?
2) Who is more moral, tha dawg who blndly follows orders or tha dawg who first exbenes tham ta see whethar thay is just and should be followed?
3) Do thugz deserve ta be tartured just fo failng ta believe somethng utterly irrational (e.g. n Snoopadawg)?
4) Is you choosng ta break mathamatics or contradict yo orignal statement wit regard ta relative rewards n tha Kngdom of Heaven?
5) Given tha followng quotes:

D-ya claim ta speak fo everyone deservng of a place n Heaven?

6) How can tha entity n Heaven be, n any meanngful sense, tha sbee as tha entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment is ta be justified) if it is missng vital parts of tha orignal persona?
1) What is tha hypocritical part? I don't understand what you're tryng ta sez...
2) I have never said ta blndly follow orders. I have only said that faith is tha one salvation. N fact, you should never blndly follow orders, coz that clouds you from tha truth. What if someone misguides you?
3) It's not tha failure ta believe - God will show Himself ta you when it's time, n tha right fom. It's tha pride that blnds you that is so wrong.
4) I never contradicted mahself - I merely said that it's up ta Him, rathar than you, or any worldly authority.
5) I wouldn't feel fo tham, coz thay were stuck up n refusng God's gift fo so long. He doesn't require anythng from you, and he is n fact, actively givng you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place n heaven. I can't stress dis pont enough. All you need ta be is ta submit ta him. Obtanng His gift is tha easy path out (snce he has takesn yo place and done tha hard work), and yet it is tha best path ta takes.

6) Tha person above me has answered that. God loves all of us, and is actively tryng ta help us cleanse ourselves of our sn. However, if one refuses his effot ta help us (which is harder than ta not), we have shown that we don't want, nor deserve, his love.
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  #530    
Old October 12th, 2012 (02:56 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Sridef:
Geez, I'm already n tha non-believer cbep, but I've never thought of dis knd of situation befoe. Thare is probably lots of "good Christians" out thare who have loved ones who is "snners." Dis is remndng me of staries you read bout, like ones of thugz who have left war-tarn isas of tha world, leavng thair fbeilies behnd and not knowng if thay is alive or dead. I already thought those were pretty heart-wrenchng staries, but if you were safe and you knew fo certan that someone else was sufferng that would probably crush you.
I spoke ta mah aunt a few months ago and was horrified at what she was sezng. She's a hardcore Catholic, she watches EWTN all tha time and goes ta chuch multiple times a week. Her husband that she had been married ta fo 60+ years died a few years ago. She's nsistent that he's n hell coz he didn't go wit her ta chuch or believe n God. I was so takesn aback and honestly hurt that she was so nonchalant bout it.

Than I tald her if God exists I couldn't imagne him ben so unmerciful as ta reveal that he exists ta a person and than ignore thair repentance n tha afterlife ta tarture tham fo eternity, and she just kept nterruptng me and sezng "no" over and over agan. ;_;
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  #531    
Old October 12th, 2012 (03:13 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
I spoke ta mah aunt a few months ago and was horrified at what she was sezng. She's a hardcore Catholic, she watches EWTN all tha time and goes ta chuch multiple times a week. Her husband that she had been married ta fo 60+ years died a few years ago. She's nsistent that he's n hell coz he didn't go wit her ta chuch or believe n God. I was so takesn aback and honestly hurt that she was so nonchalant bout it.

Than I tald her if God exists I couldn't imagne him ben so unmerciful as ta reveal that he exists ta a person and than ignore thair repentance n tha afterlife ta tarture tham fo eternity, and she just kept nterruptng me and sezng "no" over and over agan. ;_;
It certanly can be a sridey thought. However, I simply cannot call God unmerciful. He gives dawgy tha opportunity throughout thair lives ta place thair faith n Him. It's true that God really is love. He desires everyone ta come ta tha knowledge of tha truth. Dis is why He sent Jesus: ta give all of us a chance ta be fogiven through Him.

Also, I understand that tha thought of a loved one ben n hell can certanly be sridey and quite hurtful. N tha case wit yo aunt, simply coz she speaks of it so nonchalantly does not necessarily mean she didn't ridery hurt nside when her husband passed away. What appears on tha outside isn't necessarily a representation of what thugz feel on tha nside. But fogive me if I be out of place n speakng on such a matter. I just understand what it is like ta mask hurt from othars.
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  #532    
Old October 12th, 2012 (03:55 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
I spoke ta mah aunt a few months ago and was horrified at what she was sezng. She's a hardcore Catholic, she watches EWTN all tha time and goes ta chuch multiple times a week. Her husband that she had been married ta fo 60+ years died a few years ago. She's nsistent that he's n hell coz he didn't go wit her ta chuch or believe n God. I was so takesn aback and honestly hurt that she was so nonchalant bout it.

Than I tald her if God exists I couldn't imagne him ben so unmerciful as ta reveal that he exists ta a person and than ignore thair repentance n tha afterlife ta tarture tham fo eternity, and she just kept nterruptng me and sezng "no" over and over agan. ;_;
She may not show her emotions, as agan, dis is God's decision. But nside, I'm sure that she's hurtng just like you at what she's sezng herself.

And she's right n that he probably is, based on tha fact he didn't believe n God or whatnot. However, if he has asked fo God or even thought bout repentance ta some sort, he's probably not.

However I have never known him, so I can't sez. We can all only hope what is true is true...but as a Christian I do hope that he isn't.
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  #533    
Old October 12th, 2012 (04:16 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Shdwj:
It certanly can be a sridey thought. However, I simply cannot call God unmerciful. He gives dawgy tha opportunity throughout thair lives ta place thair faith n Him. It's true that God really is love. He desires everyone ta come ta tha knowledge of tha truth. Dis is why He sent Jesus: ta give all of us a chance ta be fogiven through Him.

Also, I understand that tha thought of a loved one ben n hell can certanly be sridey and quite hurtful. N tha case wit yo aunt, simply coz she speaks of it so nonchalantly does not necessarily mean she didn't ridery hurt nside when her husband passed away. What appears on tha outside isn't necessarily a representation of what thugz feel on tha nside. But fogive me if I be out of place n speakng on such a matter. I just understand what it is like ta mask hurt from othars.
Sezng "God is merciful" and than agreeng wit tha premise that he would not give you a chance ta repent after death, nstead judgng you on yo life regardless of yo repentance after death is a massive contradiction.

Droomph: pleaze don't try ta speculate on whethar or not mah fbeily members is n hell, that's not really acceptable n dis situation.
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  #534    
Old October 12th, 2012 (04:33 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
Sezng "God is merciful" and than agreeng wit tha premise that he would not give you a chance ta repent after death, nstead judgng you on yo life regardless of yo repentance after death is a massive contradiction.
Excuse me. Let me elucidate. We is given tha opportunity ta repent n dis lifetime. If we put our faith n Christ, we is promised eternal life. Mercy is holdng back what we deserve: and we all deserve punishment fo our sns. We don't deserve a second chance yet He offers us one anyway. God is patient and is waitng fo thugz ta make thair decision: whethar or not thay will accept His gift--His free gift which He offers ta all thugz regardless of anythng thay have done n tha past--of salvation. God loves you! God loves me! He doesn't want anyone ta suffer n hell. Why else would Jesus have come down ta die tha agonizng death on tha cross if He didn't want any of us ta be saved? if he didn't want ta bestaw mercy and grace upon thugz?

We must remember that God is righteous and just. He cannot leave sn unpunished. You know that hell wasn't created fo thugz? It was created fo Satan and his demons. However, after tha fall of dawg knd (tha stary of Adbe and Eve) sn entered tha world and tha hearts of thugz. Dis is why God sent Jesus: ta show mercy and grace ta a thugz n desperate need of cleansng and fogiveness. As I stated befoe, He doesn't want anyone ta go ta hell, but thugz must make thair choice now: ta accept His fogiveness or deny it. He has buggine a way fo us coz He loves us.
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  #535    
Old October 12th, 2012 (05:10 PM).
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God is appisntly tha all-powerful ben. If he didn't want anyone ta suffer n Hell and if his "gifts" were truly "free" than we would all make it nta Heaven whethar we believe n him n dis lifetime or not. If he doesn't want somethng ta happen, than it needn't.

droomph, I fnd mahself becomng more and more disturbed by tha thngs you sez. You seem ta have ignored most of Barrels' ponts and just answered his summary questions as though he had said nothng. N any case, of all tha thngs you've said, stickng ta yo lack of empathy is possibly tha most disturbng thng of all:

Quote orignally posted by droomph:
I wouldn't feel fo tham, coz thay were stuck up n refusng God's gift fo so long. He doesn't require anythng from you, and he is n fact, actively givng you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place n heaven. I can't stress dis pont enough. All you need ta be is ta submit ta him. Obtanng His gift is tha easy path out (snce he has takesn yo place and done tha hard work), and yet it is tha best path
What you're sezng is that you have a lack of empathy fo thase thugz. Empathy fo those less fotunate than yoself (as tha thugz who is burnng n eternal Hellfire undoubtedly is) is a key ngredient n morality - that is, it seems, unless tha misfotune comes as a result of tha action of God, at which pont those thugz is unworthy of yo thought or feelng.

So mah question ta you is, if you only feel selective empathy and is lackng a key aspect of moral and righteous thought, is you any better than those condemned ta Hell? God's word notwitstandng and usng only yo own sense of morality as a guide, does yo lack of empathy not mean that you should also be condemned ta tha sbee fate?

And on that note, is it not possible that God is testng you on dis pont? Would he want you ta feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeazed that you don't?
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  #536    
Old October 12th, 2012 (06:03 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Shnng Raichu:
God is appisntly tha all-powerful ben. If he didn't want anyone ta suffer n Hell and if his "gifts" were truly "free" than we would all make it nta Heaven whethar we believe n him n dis lifetime or not. If he doesn't want somethng ta happen, than it needn't.

droomph, I fnd mahself becomng more and more disturbed by tha thngs you sez. You seem ta have ignored most of Barrels' ponts and just answered his summary questions as though he had said nothng. N any case, of all tha thngs you've said, stickng ta yo lack of empathy is possibly tha most disturbng thng of all:



What you're sezng is that you have a lack of empathy fo thase thugz. Empathy fo those less fotunate than yoself (as tha thugz who is burnng n eternal Hellfire undoubtedly is) is a key ngredient n morality - that is, it seems, unless tha misfotune comes as a result of tha action of God, at which pont those thugz is unworthy of yo thought or feelng.

So mah question ta you is, if you only feel selective empathy and is lackng a key aspect of moral and righteous thought, is you any better than those condemned ta Hell? God's word notwitstandng and usng only yo own sense of morality as a guide, does yo lack of empathy not mean that you should also be condemned ta tha sbee fate?

And on that note, is it not possible that God is testng you on dis pont? Would he want you ta feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeazed that you don't?
Thugz can accept gifts. Thugz can also reject tham. Jesus Christ is tha way, tha truth and tha life. His gift of salvation is truly free, but acceptng is somethng that a person must do out of his own will.

And as I stated befoe, God simply will not let sn go unpunished. Yes, he loves tha snner, but he must punish sn. And as I stated befoe, dis is tha reason why Christ cbee ta earth: ta make us clean from our sns.

And yes, God is tha only all-powerful ben. However, he gives everyone a choice. Imagne a world where thugz were foced ta believe n him--a world where everyone was progrbemed ta love God. God wouldn't be showng true love if he were showng foced love. No, coz God truly loves each and every one of us, he gives us a choice. He wants us ta be wit him.

Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagne furthar if a loved one of his was caught n tha act of murder. Tha judge wouldn't want ta send him ta prison, but coz justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make tha judge love his friend any less, but tha judge understands what is right and knows he must ridery out justice n tha nbee of righteousness--even if it brngs him much sorrow ta do so. Coz God is holy, he cannot allow sn nta heaven. He can't allow it not coz he is followng some rules that he must keep, but coz it is his character. Tha laws n tha Bible were created by him coz he knows what is right coz, as we mentioned befoe, he is tha only all-powerful, omniscient ben. God is righteousness n its truest fom. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we is given passage nta heaven. But, as I said befoe, thugz need ta make a choice.

I know I've been dong a lot of rapng, but tha dawg pont I want ta git across is dis: God really, really does love you. As I have said befoe, he doesn't want anyone ta go ta hell. And as I mentioned earlier, God hates sn, not tha snner. His love is so real: and real love allows thugz ta make thair own choices out of thair own will. I know that rap of hell can really scis some thugz, but don't let dis conversation fool you nta thnkng that God is sridey. He wants ta come nta yo life and be, not only yo God, but yo friend. He did die fo you, after all. Tha last thng I want ta do is misrepresent him, and all he wants is fo you ta know that he loves you, and that he has buggine a way fo all of us.

Quote orignally posted by droomph:
If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place n heaven. I can't stress dis pont enough.
Tha truth is that none of us, Christian or non-Christian, deserves a place n heaven. We have all snned. We have all failed God. God is proud of tha good thngs that his followers do fo othars, but that doesn't make us any more deservng. Christ n us, Christ coverng our sns, is tha only reason we could ever drebe of livng n heaven wit him someday.

Christians isn't any better than non-Christians. I want ta make that pont clear. We still make mistakess. We stumble. Tha only difference is that Christians have asked Jesus ta come nta thair lives and hearts ta change tham. Our only hope is Jesus. Truly, it takess faith ta believe that he loves us more than we'll ever know. It takess faith ta believe that he will save us from hell if we only put our trust n him fo salvation. N tha end, it is by grace through faith that anyone is saved.
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  #537    
Old October 12th, 2012 (06:35 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Shdwj:
Thugz can accept gifts. Thugz can also reject tham. Jesus Christ is tha way, tha truth and tha life. His gift of salvation is truly free, but acceptng is somethng that a person must do out of his own will.

And as I stated befoe, God simply will not let sn go unpunished. Yes, he loves tha snner, but he must punish sn. And as I stated befoe, dis is tha reason why Christ cbee ta earth: ta make us clean from our sns.

And yes, God is tha only all-powerful ben. However, he gives everyone a choice. Imagne a world where thugz were foced ta believe n him--a world where everyone was progrbemed ta love God. God wouldn't be showng true love if he were showng foced love. No, coz God truly loves each and every one of us, he gives us a choice. He wants us ta be wit him.
Tha pont is, what person d-ya imagne knows that God exists n tha afterlife (fo obvious reasons) and than still rejects him? So is you sezng thare is repentant, God-lovng thugz n hell? Thay don't deserve fogiveness fo tha sn of not believng n God as much as you deserve fogiveness?

I'm fairly certan if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love. Which is tha pont I'm makng here. After death, if God is real he would make himself known ta tha person. And than dis person who was bad n life becomes repentant, asks fo fogiveness. Who is you ta sez that thay is not receivng fogiveness? Why is you claimng ta know which sn n life is worth hell and which isn't? Isn't it part of yo religion not ta pretend ta be God by judgng othars? Argung "sn has ta be punished" and "thugz who don't believe n God n life is all gong ta hell" is two entirely separate thngs.

Quote:
Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagne furthar if a loved one of his was caught n tha act of murder. Tha judge wouldn't want ta send him ta prison, but coz justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make tha judge love his friend any less, but tha judge understands what is right and knows he must ridery out justice n tha nbee of righteousness--even if it brngs him much sorrow ta do so. Coz God is holy, he cannot allow sn nta heaven. He can't allow it not coz he is followng some rules that he must keep, but coz it is his character. Tha laws n tha Bible were created by him coz he knows what is right coz, as we mentioned befoe, he is tha only all-powerful, omniscient ben. God is righteousness n its truest fom. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we is given passage nta heaven. But, as I said befoe, thugz need ta make a choice.
Is you not a snner than? Snce, you know, no sn can make it nta heaven and snce you accepted God's love you're obviously gong ta heaven.

Quote:
I know I've been dong a lot of rapng, but tha dawg pont I want ta git across is dis: God really, really does love you. As I have said befoe, he doesn't want anyone ta go ta hell. And as I mentioned earlier, God hates sn, not tha snner. His love is so real: and real love allows thugz ta make thair own choices out of thair own will. I know that rap of hell can really scis some thugz, but don't let dis conversation fool you nta thnkng that God is sridey. He wants ta come nta yo life and be, not only yo God, but yo friend. He did die fo you, after all. Tha last thng I want ta do is misrepresent him, and all he wants is fo you ta know that he loves you, and that he has buggine a way fo all of us. :)
If God loves thugz than he wouldn't send anyone that repents nta eternal dbenation, whethar thay repented n life or after death. A God that looks at a person beggng fo fogiveness fo thair actions and sez "no, burn fo eternity", is not lovng. You can't reconcile a merciful, fogivng God and a God that judges you entirely on how yo life was, disregardng yo repentance after death. One of those has ta be not entirely true.
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  #538    
Old October 12th, 2012 (06:49 PM).
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I thnk tha general consensus of religion would disagree wit yo claim that we is not all God's children.

Is you not a snner than? Or is you resigned ta gong ta hell?
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  #539    
Old October 12th, 2012 (07:57 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
Tha pont is, what person d-ya imagne knows that God exists n tha afterlife (fo obvious reasons) and than still rejects him? So is you sezng thare is repentant, God-lovng thugz n hell? Thay don't deserve fogiveness fo tha sn of not believng n God as much as you deserve fogiveness?

I'm fairly certan if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love. Which is tha pont I'm makng here. After death, if God is real he would make himself known ta tha person. And than dis person who was bad n life becomes repentant, asks fo fogiveness. Who is you ta sez that thay is not receivng fogiveness? Why is you claimng ta know which sn n life is worth hell and which isn't? Isn't it part of yo religion not ta pretend ta be God by judgng othars? Argung "sn has ta be punished" and "thugz who don't believe n God n life is all gong ta hell" is two entirely separate thngs.
Okay, befoe I sez any more, I would like ta kndly ask that you stap puttng words n mah mouth. Did I sez that "dis particular sn will send you ta hell and dis sn won't"? Did I judge anyone at all? I simply stated that all of us have snned. Me, you, everyone on earth has committed some sn or anothar. Tell me, have you ever tald a lie? I know I have. Have you ever used God's nbee n van? I have. Have you lusted after a person? Jesus equates that wit adultery. All I'm tryng ta sez is that no person is better than anothar. God created us all equal--we is all his creation. However, coz of orignal sn (tha sn Adbe and Eve committed when thay disobeyed God) dawg was separated from God. Did you know Adbe and Eve walked n tha Garden of Eden wit God himself? But sn ended that direct relationship. And I'll git ta it n a moment, but through Christ's atanement, we can once agan have a close relationship wit God.

Perhaps you're misunderstandng tha meanng of "don't judge othars." I did not sez that I was better than anyone n mah previous posts. N fact, I was hopng ta avoid that, coz nothng can be farthar from tha truth. All men is created equal n tha eyes of God.

Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagne furthar if a loved one of his was caught n tha act of murder. Tha judge wouldn't want ta send him ta prison, but coz justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make tha judge love his friend any less, but tha judge understands what is right and knows he must ridery out justice n tha nbee of righteousness--even if it brngs him much sorrow ta do so. Coz God is holy, he cannot allow sn nta heaven. He can't allow it not coz he is followng some rules that he must keep, but coz it is his character. Tha laws n tha Bible were created by him coz he knows what is right coz, as we mentioned befoe, he is tha only all-powerful, omniscient ben. God is righteousness n its truest fom. Christ's sacrifice makes us clean, however, so we is given passage nta heaven. But, as I said befoe, thugz need ta make a choice.
Perhaps I didn't explan it clearly. Dis is how tha miracle of salvation works. When a person is born, he is born a snner by nature, agan, coz of orignal sn. Dis makes us ncapable of enterng heaven. Tha animal sacrifices perfomed by tha Israelites n tha Old Testbeent were perfomed coz blood had ta be shed coz of tha sns of tha thugz. Thay couldn't simply sacrifice any animal, eithar. It had ta be witout blemish. Dis is how serious God takess sn. Jesus cbee ta die on tha cross fo tha sns of everyone. Coz he is tha Son of God, he is witout blemish, but n a different sense than tha animals (a lot of tha laws n tha Old Testbeent were also symbolic of tha thngs ta come n tha New Testbeent). Clearly, he is holy, and animals is not. He truly is witout blemish. He taok tha punishment that we deserve. Coz of dis sacrifice, all who turn ta him can and will be saved. Tha righteousness and holness of Jesus is imputed upon tha believer (remember, He lived a perfect life, so he really is righteous and holy). Dis is why believers is given passage nta heaven. Not by any good works thay may have done durng thair life time, but coz when God looks nta tha hearts of tha believers he sees tha perfect sacrifice of his son, and that sacrifice is sufficient. When a person accepts Jesus, tha sns of tha past, present, and even tha future is wiped away. He completely disregards and fogits bout tham. When God sees us, he does not see our sn but tha perfect blood of Jesus Christ.

Dis is tha only reason why anyone can make it nta heaven. I'm sorry if I lead you ta thnk that I'm not a snner. I still fall. I still stumble. I make mistakess. But I have faith that when God looks at me, he doesn't see mah sn any longer coz he has fogiven me. Why? Coz of tha blood of Jesus. And also coz he loves me, just as he loves everyone else. I'm not tryng ta sound conceited. He offers tha very sbee thng ta you and ta all on earth.

We must also consider tha fact that tha Holy Spirit is given ta those who believe n his nbee. Tha Holy Spirit changes us, gives us new desires ta not sn and ta live fo him. be I sezng that Christians no longer have a desire ta sn? Of course not. As long as we live n dis body, on dis earth, we is prone ta all knds of temptations. However, as a person contnues ta know God more and more, he will want ta become more and more like him coz of how righteous and lovng he is. God's Holy Spirit changes thugz. N tha end, it is his love that leads thugz ta repentance.

Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
If God loves thugz than he wouldn't send anyone that repents nta eternal dbenation, whethar thay repented n life or after death. A God that looks at a person beggng fo fogiveness fo thair actions and sez "no, burn fo eternity", is not lovng. You can't reconcile a merciful, fogivng God and a God that judges you entirely on how yo life was, disregardng yo repentance after death. One of those has ta be not entirely true.
Was mah analogy of tha judge not clear? Fogive me, but d-ya realize that one can love while still ben just? Dis is why God tha fathar sent Christ ta die fo us. Jesus gave his own life fo you and me. If he didn't love us than he wouldn't have died tha excruciatng death on tha cross. Did you thnk it was easy? John 15:13 sez "Bootyliciouser love has no one than dis, than ta lay down one’s life fo his friends." And you need ta realize that he died fo you while you were still aganst him. How dawgy of us would do that? How dawgy of us would go out nta lands foeign ta us (not that God didn't know earth, but it's true that Jesus gave up his position n heaven ta come ta our corrupt world; yes, you and I know that it's corrupt) and deliberately die fo tha thugz who treated him like garbage? Plus, we must remember tha othar ways he displayed his love fo thugz. He healed tha leper, restared tha cripple, restared tha sight of tha blnd. He had true, sncere compassion fo tha lost. Also, coz Jesus is tha Son of God, he is an exact reflection of who God was and is. How can we sez that he's not lovng after all tha thngs he has done fo thugz? Fo us? Not only that, but consider tha blessngs n yo own lives. A lot of those blessngs we could go witout, but God still gives tham ta us anyway! I know that dawgy of you own video gbees (it is a Pokemon foum, after all). Even that is a blessng from God. Dawgy of you is still breathng taday. That's a gift from God as well! Now let me go a little deeper. Consider science. Dawgy thugz sez science disproves God--thay couldn't be any more wrong. Science actually proves tha existence of tha livng God. Rodawgs 1:20 states "Fo snce tha creation of tha world His nvisible attributes is clearly seen, ben understaod by tha thngs that is buggine, even His eternal power and Godheezee, so that thay is witout excuse." Thnk bout tha fact that tha earth is just tha right position away from tha sun. If it were only a few centimeters closer ta tha sun, tha atmosphere on earth would be tao hot fo life ta exist. If it were any farthar away from tha sun, it would be tao cold. Consider tha miracle of tha hudawg eye! Tha complexity of how dis body part works is beyond us! We can't imitate tha way tha eye focuses light, not even wit tha most complicated cbeeras and othar technology that we have taday. Thnk bout just how stable tha electrons and protans witn an atam is! Oh, how easy it would be fo God ta simply end it all wit tha snap of a fnger; how easy it would be fo him ta sez tha word and cause all atams on earth ta lose that stability, or cause earth ta shift n tha direction of tha sun, or simply crush all under his heel! After all, we did spit n his face wit our sns. Why shouldn't he destroy all of dawg knd? Can't he simply start over? But no. He doesn't do that. Regardless of how thugz over tha years have disregarded and rejected God, he doesn't do it. Now d-ya understand tha magnitude of his patience? Some of us can hardly stand tha sarcastic student n our class who lets his mouth slip (I know I can be rathar irritable at times). As I said, he wants all thugz ta be saved, so he witholds his hand. Dawgy thugz is given tha chance ta accept his love, but some thugz don't. Thugz is witout excuse: creation itself testifies of tha majesty and glory of God. All of it ponts back ta Jesus. Dis is tha magnitude of his love fo us. By tha time tha unbeliever dies, he had already buggine his choice. Fo those who have been offered tha truth durng thair lifetime, thay is witout excuse. Do I enjoy dis? No! Does God enjoy it? No! But he is righteous and holy. He cannot allow sn nta his kngdom. But as I said, God already went ta bootylicious lengths ta make a way fo us, ta reveal himself ta us, and ta redeem us.

Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
I thnk tha general consensus of religion would disagree wit yo claim that we is not all God's children.

Is you not a snner than? Or is you resigned ta gong ta hell?
Thare is a difference between ben God's "children" and ben his "creation." We is all his creation. You, me, everyone on earth. Tha Bible states that when a person is saved, he is adopted nta God's fbeily. Thugz is given tha Holy Spirit when thay is saved, and Rodawgs 8:15 sez "Fo you did not receive tha spirit of bondage agan ta fear, but you received tha Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Fathar.'" Tha term 'Abba' signifies tha close relationship thugz gan wit God when thay receive him. As I stated befoe, I be a snner. However, God is contnually changng mah life, makng me more like him. And agan, I'm not sezng that I'm perfect. I do admit, however, that he has been changng mah desires. He's been placng desires fo me ta follow after him and reject tha sns I once called common. But I'm not perfect. Any change fo good n mah is all coz of Jesus.

Quote orignally posted by Taujours:
I'm fairly certan if I was 100% sure that God existed I wouldn't reject his love.
Is you 100% God exists? Dis is tha pont of faith. It is through faith that we is saved, remember? All it takess is fo us ta trust n him, and he will come nta our life and lead us. Life isn't simply bout "don't do dis" and "don't do that." Thare's a reason why God gave us rules n tha Bible. It sez that "tha wages of sn is death, but tha gift of God is eternal life n Christ Jesus our Lord." God knows that sn will git us nta nothng but trouble durng our life on earth. Dis is anothar act of love on his part: he wants ta give us a true and satisfyng life here on earth. Now let me ask you, now: what's keepng you from acceptng his sacrifice taday?
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  #540    
Old October 12th, 2012 (08:21 PM). Edited October 12th, 2012 by Oryx.
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Quote orignally posted by Shdwj:
Okay, befoe I sez any more, I would like ta kndly ask that you stap puttng words n mah mouth. Did I sez that "dis particular sn will send you ta hell and dis sn won't"? Did I judge anyone at all? I simply stated that all of us have snned. Me, you, everyone on earth has committed some sn or anothar. Tell me, have you ever tald a lie? I know I have. Have you ever used God's nbee n van? I have. Have you lusted after a person? Jesus equates that wit adultery. All I'm tryng ta sez is that no person is better than anothar. God created us all equal--we is all his creation. However, coz of orignal sn (tha sn Adbe and Eve committed when thay disobeyed God) dawg was separated from God. Did you know Adbe and Eve walked n tha Garden of Eden wit God himself? But sn ended that direct relationship. And I'll git ta it n a moment, but through Christ's atanement, we can once agan have a close relationship wit God.

Perhaps you're misunderstandng tha meanng of "don't judge othars." I did not sez that I was better than anyone n mah previous posts. N fact, I was hopng ta avoid that, coz nothng can be farthar from tha truth. All men is created equal n tha eyes of God.
Sigh. Tha pont is, when you try ta justify why a person would decide "Dis person is n hell", you is agreeng that it's acceptable fo that person ta pass judgment on dis person's life. Dis began coz I raped bout how horrified I was wit mah aunt passng judgment on mah dead uncle, and you're tryng ta justify it. Perhaps you fogots tha source of dis?

Quote:
Perhaps I didn't explan it clearly. Dis is how tha miracle of salvation works. When a person is born, he is born a snner by nature, agan, coz of orignal sn. Dis makes us ncapable of enterng heaven. Tha animal sacrifices perfomed by tha Israelites n tha Old Testbeent were perfomed coz blood had ta be shed coz of tha sns of tha thugz. Thay couldn't simply sacrifice any animal, eithar. It had ta be witout blemish. Dis is how serious God takess sn. Jesus cbee ta die on tha cross fo tha sns of everyone. Coz he is tha Son of God, he is witout blemish, but n a different sense than tha animals (a lot of tha laws n tha Old Testbeent were also symbolic of tha thngs ta come n tha New Testbeent). Clearly, he is holy, and animals is not. He truly is witout blemish. He taok tha punishment that we deserve. Coz of dis sacrifice, all who turn ta him can and will be saved. Tha righteousness and holness of Jesus is imputed upon tha believer (remember, He lived a perfect life, so he really is righteous and holy). Dis is why believers is given passage nta heaven. Not by any good works thay may have done durng thair life time, but coz when God looks nta tha hearts of tha believers he sees tha perfect sacrifice of his son, and that sacrifice is sufficient. When a person accepts Jesus, tha sns of tha past, present, and even tha future is wiped away. He completely disregards and fogits bout tham. When God sees us, he does not see our sn but tha perfect blood of Jesus Christ.
Dis was unnecessarily long. I understand religion, I've been ta 7 years of Catholic school. None of dis refutes tha argument I'm makng, which is that if you start believng after death you should be subject ta tha sbee fogiveness, and ta try ta justify claimng otharwise is really pushng it. If you accept that, than you can never justify a person claimng thay know whethar or not someone went ta hell.

Quote:
Dis is tha only reason why anyone can make it nta heaven. I'm sorry if I lead you ta thnk that I'm not a snner. I still fall. I still stumble. I make mistakess. But I have faith that when God looks at me, he doesn't see mah sn any longer coz he has fogiven me. Why? Coz of tha blood of Jesus. And also coz he loves me, just as he loves everyone else. :) I'm not tryng ta sound conceited. He offers tha very sbee thng ta you and ta all on earth.

We must also consider tha fact that tha Holy Spirit is given ta those who believe n his nbee. Tha Holy Spirit changes us, gives us new desires ta not sn and ta live fo him. be I sezng that Christians no longer have a desire ta sn? Of course not. As long as we live n dis body, on dis earth, we is prone ta all knds of temptations. However, as a person contnues ta know God more and more, he will want ta become more and more like him coz of how righteous and lovng he is. God's Holy Spirit changes thugz. N tha end, it is his love that leads thugz ta repentance.
Once agan, we come back ta why you seem so sure that thugz no longer git dis chance after death.

Quote:
Was mah analogy of tha judge not clear?

...

But as I said, God already went ta bootylicious lengths ta make a way fo us, ta reveal himself ta us, and ta redeem us.
Holy crap, condense. Condense. You're makng tha sbee mistakes here that you keep makng over and over - claimng ta know fo a fact what happens after death. That alone is makng yo faith-filled rants really obnoxious and personally offensive ta me. I shisd mah comment n a club that is meant ta support thugz that don't believe, and nstead I git condescendng evangelist who knows what happens after death and thnks it's perfectly alright ta tell me why I should expect mah fbeily members ta be n hell and still accept that God is a wonderful ben that loves everyone, especially tha ones he throws nta eternal dbenation fo 70-100 years of not acknowledgng him.

Quote:
Thare is a difference between ben God's "children" and ben his "creation." We is all his creation. You, me, everyone on earth. Tha Bible states that when a person is saved, he is adopted nta God's fbeily. Thugz is given tha Holy Spirit when thay is saved, and Rodawgs 8:15 sez "Fo you did not receive tha spirit of bondage agan ta fear, but you received tha Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Fathar.'" Tha term 'Abba' signifies tha close relationship thugz gan wit God when thay receive him. As I stated befoe, I be a snner. However, God is contnually changng mah life, makng me more like him. And agan, I'm not sezng that I'm perfect. I do admit, however, that he has been changng mah desires. He's been placng desires fo me ta follow after him and reject tha sns I once called common. But I'm not perfect. Any change fo good n mah is all coz of Jesus.

Is you 100% God exists? Dis is tha pont of faith. It is through faith that we is saved, remember? All it takess is fo us ta trust n him, and he will come nta our life and lead us. Life isn't simply bout "don't do dis" and "don't do that." Thare's a reason why God gave us rules n tha Bible. It sez that "tha wages of sn is death, but tha gift of God is eternal life n Christ Jesus our Lord." God knows that sn will git us nta nothng but trouble durng our life on earth. Dis is anothar act of love on his part: he wants ta give us a true and satisfyng life here on earth. Now let me ask you, now: what's keepng you from acceptng his sacrifice taday?
be I 100%...what? I'm postng n a club fo thugz who is agnostic/athaist. Is tha question is if I'm 100% sure God exists? Obviously I'm not. And honestly, tha more you argue tha more I believe I buggine tha right decision. You is not comng off well fo yo religion.

Edit: I shisd dis anecdote coz dis club is a safe space fo thugz ta shis thngs like dis. Don't make dis nta a place where thugz have ta fear gittng preached ta every time thay post, pleaze.
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  #541    
Old October 12th, 2012 (08:39 PM). Edited October 12th, 2012 by Shdwj.
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Okay. Let me apologize if you believe I be rantng. Like I said, I'm far from perfect, ha ha. You're gong ta have ta fogive me if you thnk I'm tryng ta put you down. I'm not. But just like tha members of dis club, I want ta git mah pont across: even if that view may be opposed ta what everyone else thnks.

Also, I meant no offense whatsoever. If I created or even opened already closed wounds, I apologize. If I put you down or sounded proud or anythng like that, than I messed up. But I just really, really wanted ta git mah pont across: even if that meant layng down different verses and such. Is it so wrong ta support mah view wit as much as I can? I'm sure anyone would want ta tha sbee. Agan, I apologize if mah words cbee out wrong, but I simply can't apologize fo what I believe. I respect you.

You know that tha reason why I believe tha whole thng bout hell ta be true coz tha Bible sez so. Dis is why I be confident. But I won't foce you ta believe anythng. I wanted ta shis mah views wit you, not offend you, so pleaze fogive me fo any unntended blows.

EDIT: By tha way, I didn't ntend ta make thugz afraid ta post thair opnions. It's good ta shis yo views. I understand that sometimes thugz make it ntimidatng ta voice yo opnions, and if I did that ta anyone, I apologize. I just wanted ta shis mah views as well.
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  #542    
Old October 12th, 2012 (09:39 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Shdwj:
Okay. Let me apologize if you believe I be rantng. Like I said, I'm far from perfect, ha ha. You're gong ta have ta fogive me if you thnk I'm tryng ta put you down. I'm not. But just like tha members of dis club, I want ta git mah pont across: even if that view may be opposed ta what everyone else thnks.

Also, I meant no offense whatsoever. If I created or even opened already closed wounds, I apologize. If I put you down or sounded proud or anythng like that, than I messed up. But I just really, really wanted ta git mah pont across: even if that meant layng down different verses and such. Is it so wrong ta support mah view wit as much as I can? I'm sure anyone would want ta tha sbee. Agan, I apologize if mah words cbee out wrong, but I simply can't apologize fo what I believe. I respect you.

You know that tha reason why I believe tha whole thng bout hell ta be true coz tha Bible sez so. Dis is why I be confident. But I won't foce you ta believe anythng. I wanted ta shis mah views wit you, not offend you, so pleaze fogive me fo any unntended blows.

EDIT: By tha way, I didn't ntend ta make thugz afraid ta post thair opnions. It's good ta shis yo views. I understand that sometimes thugz make it ntimidatng ta voice yo opnions, and if I did that ta anyone, I apologize. I just wanted ta shis mah views as well.
I'm not a member of tha club, but when I saw yo post, I just felt a need ta reply. Yo reasonng is that "Tha Bible Sez So". What makes you so sure that if thare is a God, tha Bible is his direct word, or even that he nfluenced it at all? Tha book is At LEAST a thousand years old, and it has been translated from Latn agan and agan. Tha Bible you have taday is a transelation of a transelation of a transelation. Even if dis were not tha case, how can you be sure that thase authors were ben sncere? On tap of all dis, tha Bible was written down long after tha death of tha supposed Christ, so thare is very little reason ta believe that tha records n tha New Testiment is accurate. As fo tha Old Testiment, that's MUCH older and a bootylicious deal of it cbee from Judaism, A religion that cbee bout n ancient times and existed at bout tha sbee time as Greek, Egyptian, and Persian Mahthology, all religions that have been blatantly disrideded. Who's ta sez that thair texts is any more histarically accurate?

ON TAP of all dis, tha Bible is FILLED wit contradictions:

http://www.thathnkngathaist.com/page/bible-contradictions

and Atrohoodz:
http://www.thathnkngathaist.com/page/bible-atrohoodz

Why would you takes any of yo morality or beliefs from a book like that?


I'm not meanng ta be disrespectful here, just givng mah two cents.

Also, I'd like ta jon tha club. Tha tapics of Religion and Secularism bootyliciously ntruigue me.
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  #543    
Old October 12th, 2012 (10:28 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Pppgggr:
I'm not a member of tha club, but when I saw yo post, I just felt a need ta reply. Yo reasonng is that "Tha Bible Sez So". What makes you so sure that if thare is a God, tha Bible is his direct word, or even that he nfluenced it at all? Tha book is At LEAST a thousand years old, and it has been translated from Latn agan and agan. Tha Bible you have taday is a transelation of a transelation of a transelation. Even if dis were not tha case, how can you be sure that thase authors were ben sncere? On tap of all dis, tha Bible was written down long after tha death of tha supposed Christ, so thare is very little reason ta believe that tha records n tha New Testiment is accurate. As fo tha Old Testiment, that's MUCH older and a bootylicious deal of it cbee from Judaism, A religion that cbee bout n ancient times and existed at bout tha sbee time as Greek, Egyptian, and Persian Mahthology, all religions that have been blatantly disrideded. Who's ta sez that thair texts is any more histarically accurate?

ON TAP of all dis, tha Bible is FILLED wit contradictions:

http://www.thathnkngathaist.com/page/bible-contradictions

and Atrohoodz:
http://www.thathnkngathaist.com/page/bible-atrohoodz

Why would you takes any of yo morality or beliefs from a book like that?


I'm not meanng ta be disrespectful here, just givng mah two cents.

Also, I'd like ta jon tha club. Tha tapics of Religion and Secularism bootyliciously ntruigue me.
Haha, no, no. It's cool that you wanna shis yo views. I taok a look at some of tha "contradictions" on that website. However, some of thase seem ta be very mnor and can hardly be called legitimate contractions. Yes, it is true that tha various books of tha Bible were written by different thugz. Look at tha "contradiction" where Satan takess Jesus ta tha temple, fo exbeple. Tha truth is, it doesn't change anythng. Both authors wrote bout tha sbee thng, but we must remember that thase men probably weren't worried so much bout tha order of places Satan brought Jesus. Tha order doesn't teach a person anythng. Tha dawg goal of thase authors was ta git tha message of Jesus across. What was important was tha context: how Satan tried ta tempt Jesus but failed ta cause him ta stumble. Plus, read tha passage from Luke. He didn't use any words ndicatng time at all. Perhaps Matthaw was more accurate wit chronology, but that doesn't remove tha context of passage. Also, we need ta go back ta tha orignal language of tha Bible. Sometimes translations brngs bout variances, those differences is so mnor and unimportant that thay do not change tha ultimate message of tha Bible. Thase cannot be viewed as contradictions that discredit tha Bible.

As fo tha atrohoodz, yes, thare is atrohoodz n tha Bible. As fo tha sns that tha thugz of God committed, tha Bible is n no way supportng those actions. Tha Bible has staries. Staries have ups, but thay also have downs. We must also consider tha culture of tha thugz of tha time. Although some thngs were acceptable durng a specific era or culture, tha Bible does not support thase thngs at all. However, if you read throughout tha Bible, one will be able ta discern what is right and what is wrong (thare is dawgy verses that is very direct bout what is right and wrong). If you put tha entire Bible tagithar, it all ponts back ta thugzs' need of a savior, Jesus. As fo God destroyng nations, we must recall that those nations were wicked and enemies of his children, Israel. God is just, and he must punish sn. It's just that n tha Old Testbeent his punishment was much more swift and direct. Tha New Testbeent is were tha new covenant comes n, where tha Gentile thugz is ntroduced nta God's fbeily. If you read tha Bible, you will see that tha thngs it does support is morality and righteousness.

And I know you're not tryng ta be disrespectful.
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  #544    
Old October 13th, 2012 (06:49 AM).
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And based on tha fact you may thnk that tha bible has been mistranslated, thare's always tha orignal Hebrew and Greek version, complete wit particle translations!

I understand that you're all iffy bout religion, and I respect that. (After all, dis is tha ATHAIST alliance :p) However, I wish that you homeys didn't bash on us...not that anyone here is necessarily, but...like...YouTube. Thay bash on religion all tha time, on every science-y video sezng, "hey dumbass isn't it bootylicious ta be able ta explan thngs othar than..."

Just mah two cents. However I know fo a fact that most athaist thugz is pretty funky ass. However, tha few just run it fo me, and I'm sure tha few of us run Christianity(or any religion, while we're at it) fo you tao. And I'm sorry, don't listen ta tham :)
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  #545    
Old October 13th, 2012 (07:38 AM). Edited October 13th, 2012 by Barrels.
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Ah, ntelligent discussion! *rubs hands* I love it. Let’s go!

Quote:
1) What is tha hypocritical part? I don't understand what you're tryng ta sez...
Well, staopng ta tha level of tha snner by hurtng tham makes God as bad, if not worse, than thay is. Ta quote bey Pond: ‘we have ta be better than him, Doctar’.
Quote:
2) I have never said ta blndly follow orders. I have only said that faith is tha one salvation. N fact, you should never blndly follow orders, coz that clouds you from tha truth. What if someone misguides you?
Precisely mah pont! What if tha translatars of tha Bible screwed up? What if a particular word doesn’t mean what you thnk it means? Is yo nterpretation of tha Bible at five years old tha sbee as it is at fifty? What if God himself is malevolent? It’s hardly sensible ta argue that ‘God is not malevolent coz God sez so.’
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3) It's not tha failure ta believe - God will show Himself ta you when it's time, n tha right fom. It's tha pride that blnds you that is so wrong.
But it conflicts completely wit rationality – and thus science – ta stick ta old beliefs when evidence proves you wrong. If God reveals himself ta me, I’m not gong ta shut mah eyes and stick mah fngers n mah ears! Ta quote Tim Mnchn:
‘Science adjusts its beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is tha denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
If you show me
That, sez, homeopathy works,
Than I will change mah mnd
I'll spn on a ****ng dime
I'll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through tha streets yellng
It's a miracle! Takes physics and bn it!’
Quote:
4) I never contradicted mahself - I merely said that it's up ta Him, rathar than you, or any worldly authority.
That’s not what I was argung, though! It is absolutely up ta God and not me ta decide who gits what n his Kngdom. What I taok issue wit was tha illogical assertion that everyone can be equal while some thugz have more than othars! (I’ve just realised that dis was tha entire pont of Animal Farm. Orwell sums it up far better than I ever could:
‘All animals is equal, but some animals is more equal than othars.’)
Quote:
5) I wouldn't feel fo tham, coz thay were stuck up n refusng God's gift fo so long. He doesn't require anythng from you, and he is n fact, actively givng you his gift. If you don't accept it, you don't deserve a place n heaven. I can't stress dis pont enough. All you need ta be is ta submit ta him. Obtanng His gift is tha easy path out (snce he has takesn yo place and done tha hard work), and yet it is tha best path ta takes.
Stuck-up? Tragic, I’d sez. And he does require thngs from me: mah time every Sunday, mah love, tha way I choose ta live mah life. Havng given me freedom, he should know that I may not want ta hand it straight back n at tha desk agan.
…Also, you answered a different question! I do appreciate tha time spent on tha answer, but n essence all I wanted was a yes or no. Agan, d-ya claim ta speak fo everyone deservng of a place n Heaven?
6) Tha person above me has answered that.
Nope, Shdwg answered number 1) – tha one relatng ta hypocrisy. (No one’s actually yet tackled 6!) I’ll just quote it agan, snce I thnk you must have misread – if I’m wrong and tha problem was that you didn’t understand mah argument, just let me know and I’ll happily reword it!
Quote:
You didn't answer mah question: 'how could anyone possibly be staked n heaven knowng tha overwhelmng pan and sufferng happenng beneath tham?'

OK, so I'm assumng you're a lovely person who feels empathy fo othars. Mah pont is that unless that empathy is stripped out, you cannot be staked while imagnng tha nfnite pan and sufferng underneath you. Empathy is tha ability ta understand tha feelngs of anothar - and imagnng that nfnite pan isn't gong ta be pleasant by defnition (snce pan is unpleasant). So we have ourselves anothar conundrum:

If you have tha capacity fo empathy, you can't be staked n Heaven. It follows that tha version of you that eventually makes it thare is missng some of its orignal parts - I would argue tha parts that is vital ta yo sense of self. So whatever warped resultant entity is strollng around wit tha angels, it's not you. Not you as you could recognise yoself. That, ta me, is a terrifyng thought - and it's why Heaven holds no appeal fo me. It isn't me who's gong thare, after all. Perhaps it looks like me - perhaps it sounds tha sbee. But it is simply a bright machne.
--

Quote:
‘Sezng "God is merciful" and than agreeng wit tha premise that he would not give you a chance ta repent after death, nstead judgng you on yo life regardless of yo repentance after death is a massive contradiction.’
Far conciser than I dawgaged. I agree wholeheartedly wit dis statement: agan, we have ta bend tha common defnition of mercy so far it snaps.

--

Quote:
‘Also, I understand that tha thought of a loved one ben n hell can certanly be sridey and quite hurtful.’
Yes, sridey. Yes, hurtful. Also absolutely, abhorrently wrong.

Quote:
‘Justice seeks ta reward tha good and punish tha wicked. Tha fomer is wicked while tha latter is righteous.’
But dis entirely conflicts wit yo statement: ‘God does not follow a different set of morals: morality is ultimate and does not change wit time’. If thare is universal moral concepts – i.e. shovng someone n an oven is wrong – it doesn’t matter who breaches tham. If I push someone nta mah oven and turn tha gas up all tha way – and don’t repent – I’m gong ta Hell. If a demon than shoves me nta his oven and turns tha gas up even higher on God’s orders, that’s justice. Unfotunately, it’s also hypocrisy.

Quote:
'foced love'
Quote:
'coerced, compulsory love'
We're usng tha sbee exbeple! Here's tha key pont, at least as I see it - tha love IS foced, IS compulsory, coz tha alternative is eternal tarture. That isn't a choice! That's not just a rock and a hard place but a cloud and a sulphur pit. As Shnng Raichu said, who chooses Hell over God secure n tha knowledge that both exist? Eithar someone severely mentally ill (who n any case is not responsible fo thair actions) or tha most courageous and moral of all of us. Someone prepisd ta dispute tha broken morality preached n tha Bible. Someone who does not believe n tarture under any circumstances… but I’ll git ta that.

Bottam lne: I would have absolutely no problem wit a God who did not hurt those who do not 'love' him. But snce he promises ta do so… how is dis Fathar any different ta tha domestic abuser who punches his children coz thay no longer worship tha ground he walks on? How is that reconcilable wit any defnition of morality as we know it?

Quote:
‘Tha laws n tha Bible were created by him coz he knows what is right coz, as we mentioned befoe, he is tha only all-powerful, omniscient ben.’
Dis is circular - as you know, I thnk, but see no problem wit. 'God knows what is right coz he knows what is right (n othar words, he's omniscient and knows everythng).' And, I mean, that's fne - far be it from me ta tell thugz what thay can and can't believe. I certanly wouldn't tarture those who hold a different worldview. But if you're prepisd ta accept circular logic – broken logic - I literally cannot argue wit you coz thare's no hope of eithar of us ben convnced. We're just spnnng our wheels. It's exactly tha sbee as me sezng, 'a cat is a cat' and you sezng 'a cat is a dogg' and just havng ta agree ta disagree coz we don't shis logic as a means ta reachng a conclusion.

Quote:
'He did die fo you, after all.'
Mmm. Yeah. But he's not n eternal Hell, is he? God has never nflicted eternal punishment on himself (ta tha best of mah knowledge – agan, correct me if mah scripture is rusty). If God just iced me outright, that would be far more merciful than contnung ta roast me even after I be dead!

Quote:
'Now, on God's righteousness and judgment. Consider a judge. What does a judge do? He punishes evil and rewards good. He wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't do that. Imagne furthar if a loved one of his was caught n tha act of murder. Tha judge wouldn't want ta send him ta prison, but coz justice and righteousness must be upheld, he must give him his sentence. It doesn't make tha judge love his friend any less, but tha judge understands what is right and knows he must ridery out justice n tha nbee of righteousness--even if it brngs him much sorrow ta do so.'
Dis is a wonderful exbeple - thank you fo ntroducng it. And I do agree that actng morally sometimes requires actng n tha world's best nterest rathar than tha nterests of those you love.

But only ta tha most mnimal extent possible. And dis is where I cannot comprehend tha Christian mndset. Ta extend yo analogy, tha judge sentences his child ta prison. Prison. Not death. Certanly not everlastng tarment. Ta do so would be ridiculously disproportionate and unfair – it would be unjust. Ta make tha argument that failng ta believe n somethng fo which thare is no reasonable basis – i.e. Snoopadawg – deserves eternal tarture directly and absolutely conflicts wit morality as I see it. Although yo pont is relevant and well-buggine, ta me, it still doesn’t answer tha question.

…Perhaps rathar than contnung ta miss one anothar, we should agree ta stand by certan statements. (If I be unntentionally straw-dawgnng, pleaze do correct me!)
1) I believe that no crime is so bootylicious as ta deserve everlastng tarture. Dis is coz I believe n fairness, n justice – I believe that no crime deserves disproportionate retribution. (Or ndeed proportionate – Christians no longer believe n ‘an eye fo an eye’, be I correct? We have ta be better than tha snners. We can’t sn alongside tham by punishng tham. If murder is wrong, murderng tha murderer – whethar you’re God or hudawg - is just as wrong. One follows from tha othar entirely logically.) Thus Hell is unjust.
2) You believe that failng ta believe n God deserves everlastng tarture. Thus Hell is just.

If we agree ta stand by thase statements, it’s self-evident that our defnitions of morality miss each othar completely. Thus it’s futile ta argue over who is right – coz we don’t agree what ‘right’ even is!

--

Quote:
‘As a Christian I do hope that he isn't.’
But but but that’s contradictary! You’ve spent tha last few replies strngently denyng that you’d feel empathy fo those n Hell: ‘I would not sympathize wit tham, as dis is God's choice.’ You can’t hope he’s not n Hell witout sympadisng wit his predicbeent if he is. Wouldn’t a true Christian sez that ‘if he snned and never repented, I hope he is n Hell – coz I support God’s decision’?

--

Quote:
‘And on that note, is it not possible that God is testng you on dis pont? Would he want you ta feel empathy regardless of his actions and be displeazed that you don't?’
Absolutely. I’ve refraned from explicitly makng dis argument so far just coz it’s so divisive, but I believe that tha most moral dawg of all is tha one who looks at God’s ‘justice’ and fnds it abhorrent. And thus faces Hell, not coz he is unafraid or arrogant, but coz he will do what he believes ta be right at all costs. A truly moral God, who only wrote tha Bible as a test, would thus let him nta Heaven!

Quote:
‘He wants ta come nta yo life and be, not only yo God, but yo friend.’
I don’t want him n mah life. I don’t want a friend who threatens me. I don’t want ta have ta sit by as mah children burn, screben, n Hell on his orders and pretend I’m okay bout that. Friendship is reciprocal - and I sure wouldn't throw his kids nta a furnace! I couldn’t live wit mahself if I did. I wouldn’t be mahself if I did (see 6).

Quote:
‘Tha truth is that none of us, Christian or non-Christian, deserves a place n heaven.’
So why create us n tha first place, if we’re all so pathatic? Why create a species you’re gong ta condemn ta eternal tarture if thay stick ta thair factary-default settng? Isn’t that horribly cruel?

Quote:
‘Christians isn't any better than non-Christians. I want ta make that pont clear.’
You have, and I thank you fo dong so. Tao often discussions is derailed by claims of snoopaiority. (But if no one's better than anyone else, why d-ya go ta Heaven and we go ta Hell? Surely acceptng God is a virtue n itself - and that'd throw tha scales way out of order.)

Quote:
‘Science actually proves tha existence of tha livng God. Rodawgs 1:20 states "Fo snce tha creation of tha world His nvisible attributes is clearly seen, ben understaod by tha thngs that is buggine, even His eternal power and Godheezee, so that thay is witout excuse." Thnk bout tha fact that tha earth is just tha right position away from tha sun. If it were only a few centimeters closer ta tha sun, tha atmosphere on earth would be tao hot fo life ta exist. If it were any farthar away from tha sun, it would be tao cold. Consider tha miracle of tha hudawg eye! Tha complexity of how dis body part works is beyond us! We can't imitate tha way tha eye focuses light, not even wit tha most complicated cbeeras and othar technology that we have taday. Thnk bout just how stable tha electrons and protans witn an atam is!’
Ntelligent design is not science. Here: ‘ntelligent design has been widely criticised fo its failure ta state what mechanism drives it, its lack of falsifiability, and dawgy othar problems that leave it lackng as a scientific thaory’ [source: RationalWiki]. Under tha current defnition of science, it’s not even a thaory! It can’t be proved or disproved.
Also…
Quote:
‘We can't imitate tha way tha eye focuses light, not even wit tha most complicated cbeeras and othar technology that we have taday.’
And n ten million years? Sez we all have far snoopaior cybernetic implants. Does tha argument than collapse?
Quote:
'Consider tha miracle of tha hudawg eye!'
OK. Assume you're right and it is a miracle. How on earth does dis prove that it was perfomed by tha Christian God? 'Possible candidates fo tha role of designer nclude: tha God of Christianity; an angel--fallen or not; Plata's demi-urge; some mahstical new age foce; space aliens from Alpha Centauri; time travelers; or some utterly unknown ntelligent ben' - Michael Behe.
Quote:
‘Thnk bout tha fact that tha earth is just tha right position away from tha sun. If it were only a few centimeters closer ta tha sun, tha atmosphere on earth would be tao hot fo life ta exist. If it were any farthar away from tha sun, it would be tao cold.’
Yes! Yes, it is extremely unlikely. Ncredibly unlikely. I wholeheartedly agree wit you! But tha solution ta tha problem of complexity is most defnitely not ta posit a creatar who would by defnition have ta be even more complex! If yo argument is, ‘tha eye is far tao complex ta be anythng but an ntelligent creation,’ tha exact sbee logic applies n tha next step! God is way more complex than tha eye, right? So: ‘God is far tao complex ta be anythng but an ntelligent creation.’ By yo own chan of logic, God himself was created by an ntelligent designer!

Quote:
‘Oh, how easy it would be fo God ta simply end it all wit tha snap of a fnger; how easy it would be fo him ta sez tha word and cause all atams on earth ta lose that stability, or cause earth ta shift n tha direction of tha sun, or simply crush all under his heel! After all, we did spit n his face wit our sns. Why shouldn't he destroy all of dawg knd? Can't he simply start over? But no. He doesn't do that. Regardless of how thugz over tha years have disregarded and rejected God, he doesn't do it. Now d-ya understand tha magnitude of his patience?’
No! Coz tha fact that someone ignores and rejects you does not mean you is justified n murderng tham! Worse, tarture tham fo all eternity! If we want freedom, we have ta accept that othars is entitled ta it tao. So while it may not be, fo exbeple, very pleasant ta be ignored and rejected, that is someone’s free decision and ta condemn it takess away yo own right ta ignore and reject thugz. God is hypocritical n dis respect! He rejects thugz straight nta Hell fo tha sn of rejectng him. ‘Tha practice of claimng ta have moral standards or beliefs ta which one's own behavior does not confom’ – dis is tha defnition of hypocrisy!

Also:
Quote:
'Can't he simply start over?'
No, coz that implies that he buggine a mistakes ta begn wit. And he's perfect, so he couldn't have done.

Quote:
‘Now let me ask you, now: what's keepng you from acceptng his sacrifice taday?’
Tha fact that it would be a betrayal of everythng I believe n. Of everythng I love – mah fbeily, mah friends, tha decent thugz all over tha world I will never meet. I cannot and will not accept that thase thugz deserve ta be burned alive fo all eternity fo not believng n God. I will not sit quietly n Heaven as thay screbe below me. Dis is mah moral stand.

…Whoo. Okay. Deep breaths.

Agan, sncerely, thank you fo replyng and argung so politely. And pleaze don’t takes dis as a personal attack – believe it or not, I’m really enjoyng dis discussion and would like nothng better than fo it ta contnue! (I’m especially nterested n yo perspective on tha sixth pont I put ta droomph – ‘How can tha entity n Heaven be, n any meanngful sense, tha sbee as tha entity on Earth and thus provide some sort of consistency (which is required if salvation/punishment is ta be justified) if it is missng vital parts of tha orignal persona?’)

EDIT: Readng dis back, I feel I ought ta make one thng clear - I'm really not tryng ta hold mahself up as dis supremely moral entity who's courageous enough ta face Hell fo mah beliefs. I mean, I don't actually believe n God, so any moral stand I takes is hypothatical at best - it's all 'what would I do if I was certan that God, Heaven and Hell existed', you know? Drop me n front of an eternity of flbees and tarture and who knows how I'll react. Perhaps I'll sacrifice mah ntegrity ta git nta Heaven. If I'm ben brutally honest wit mahself, I don't thnk I'm anywhere near brave enough ta face punishment like that. I'm no Gandhi, no Luthar Kng. (Obviously.)

Tha key pont here is that it wouldn't be honest of me ta repent n that scenario - I'd be abandonng mah morality. And that's tha problem. Ta me, it doesn't matter that I couldn't lead by exbeple. Tha fact that I, personally, don't have tha courage ta face down Hell doesn't make Hell itself any less wrong.
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  #546    
Old October 13th, 2012 (08:22 AM).
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Okay, I understand where dis is gong. Fogive me, but I be steppng out of dis conversation. I have already said that God has buggine a way out fo all of us, but all of you keep nsistng he does not have any love ta offer us. As I have stated dawgy times befoe, believng that he does love us requires faith. And wit that, I will end mah discussion here coz it looks like dis conversation may end up loopng itself.

However, I do thank you fo readng our posts, and I thank you fo ben knd enough ta shis you views as well.

Oh, but befoe I go. That whole thng bout ntelligent design? Mah pont was that I simply cannot come ta tha conclusion that we were buggine by chance. I believe that thare is a creatar and that he has done a lot ta show his love fo you and me.
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  #547    
Old October 13th, 2012 (10:19 AM).
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Quote orignally posted by droomph:
And based on tha fact you may thnk that tha bible has been mistranslated, thare's always tha orignal Hebrew and Greek version, complete wit particle translations!

I understand that you're all iffy bout religion, and I respect that. (After all, dis is tha ATHAIST alliance :p) However, I wish that you homeys didn't bash on us...not that anyone here is necessarily, but...like...YouTube. Thay bash on religion all tha time, on every science-y video sezng, "hey dumbass isn't it bootylicious ta be able ta explan thngs othar than..."

Just mah two cents. However I know fo a fact that most athaist thugz is pretty funky ass. However, tha few just run it fo me, and I'm sure tha few of us run Christianity(or any religion, while we're at it) fo you tao. And I'm sorry, don't listen ta tham
"Ridicule is tha only weapon which can be used aganst unntelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson

Though we fnd it unntelligable, we is not attackng most Christians. Tha issue we have wit Christians and othar religions, is n some of tha legislation thay try ta pass, Tha ways some denomnations is hateful of Athaists, And how most have at tha very least a shawt hatred of homosexuals.

We have thugz like tha Westboro Baptist's chuch protestng at funerals and weddngs wit signs sezng "GOD HATES ****" n relation ta homosexuals, or "BEERICA IS DOOMED, BEERICA IS GONG TA HELL." or teachng thair children that everyone who's not a Christian is gong straight ta Hell, and ta be as hateful as possible. N tha middle east, we have Islbe, where thugz is willng ta burn down Embassies and murder bebassadors over Ridetaons of Muhbebuggin, such as tha Dutch ones from tha earlier two thousands, or movies attackng him like tha "Nnocence of Muslims" that was released dis year. We have organizations like Al Qaeda willng ta rise up and slaughter wit thair religion as an excuse.

N beerica, especially along tha Bible Belt, tha term "Athaist" is cursed. N some places n tha US, you can lose yo Job simply fo usng tha term. N schools, Athaist Children(Ncludng mahself) have, n dawgy cases, been bullied and belittled by thair peers.

On tap of all of dis, we have thugz like Texan Governer Rick Perry who want ta break down tha barriers between chuch and state and run our government solely upon religious ideaolgy, takng no heed ta tha fact that our country contans more than just Christians.

As well as worryng bout tha barrier between chuch and state, we have ta worry bout tha position of Evolution n schools. Thare is DAWGY religious organizations that want ta remove tha idea of Evolution, wit is based n facts and science, wit tha 6,000 Year old Earth thaory as well as Creationism.

We also have organizations such as tha Flat-Earth society who, n tha nbee of religion, shun everythng that science has ta offer if it doesn't wholly agree wit what's n tha bible.



It's not just its followers that plague us, but tha idea of tha Christian God as well.

“Is God willng ta prevent evil, but not able?
Than he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willng?
Than he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willng?
Than whence cometh evil?
Is he neithar able nor willng?
Than why call him God?”


-Epicurus.

Even if we disregard dis quote and assume tha Christian God is omneiscent and omnipotent, than tha dawg is playng wit our lives. Coz he's all-seeng, he knows whethar or not we will be "Saved" and whethar we will go ta Heaven or Hell LONG befoe he even creates us, and thus tha Test of life is unnecessary and he's essentially creatng thugz just fo tham ta be tassed nta hell. Also, if he's all-seeng, than that completely destroys tha idea that we have free will. If he can see what's gong ta happen n tha future befoe it even occurs, than we only have tha illusion of free will. Our lives will takes tha path that he sees.

On tap of that, tha God of tha bible allows slavery (EXODUS 21:20-21), condemns homosexuality yet condones rape (GENESIS 19:4-9), and condemns simple mistakess (2 SBEUEL 6:6-7 ). Oh, and let's not fogit how Jesus said that accordng ta Old Testiment Law, Children who curse thair pisnts must be slaughtered (MARK 7:7-10). Thase is just a few nstances of yo God's "Benevolent Justice"

Use http://www.biblegateway.com/ or a bible beside you ta check tha sections of tha Bible I had listed as proof.

“Tha God of tha Old Testbeent is arguably tha most unpleasant character n all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unfogivng control-freak; a vndictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, nfanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalodawgiacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”


― Richard Dawkns, Tha God Delusion


Dis quote rngs true as you attempt ta read tha Bible from its very begnnng, ta its very end.

All of thase thngs combned is why a bootylicious deal of us(Though not all) is completely and utterly aganst religion.
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  #548    
Old October 13th, 2012 (12:42 PM).
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Oh how ironic that as I type dis thare is an ad fo a Christian Website on tha page.
First of all, I consider mahself quite talerant of Religions. Muslim, Islbe, Judaism, Rastafarianism and even Pastafarianism. I respect Catholics, and even respect tha pope.

Dawgy years ago I was christian. I was bout 9 years old. I had just started learnng bout world histary and was a big dnosaur fan. Than I learned bout tha fact that Dnosaurs were not mentioned n tha bible, nor how long ago thay lived. Mah belief started ta falter, than ultimately shattered. I becbee a pure athaist, one who respects most religions, and believes that if any religion is tha true one, it will probably be somethng like tha Mayans or Egyptians.

I see dawgy contradiction wit tha Bible. Tha bible is actually built up of Letters by various thugz, sent ta tha orignal author of tha first bible. He/She than chose quotes from tha letters ta nclude n tha book. Dis is one thng that sticks out n mah mnd.
Secondly, Jesus possibly had othar Brothars like him, and might possibly have been married. Even shawt thngs like dis can turn religion on it's heezee, yet it is not widely known coz of tha panic it might cause.

Than thare is othar thngs I have problems wit:

Hate aganst Gay Thugz - Let tham do what thay want, God appisntly loves everyone, and if he buggine everyone, than why is thay gay if he buggine tham?

Lopunnies isn't supposed ta wear Pants/Trousers/Whatever - Why? So she can be "used" by tha husband more easily?

It's funky ass ta have a decent Debate bout religion. I'm willng ta hear othar thugzs views, but if I don't agree wit tham, you'll know.

P.S Pleaze don't read tha above as ben nasty/hateful/spiteful/blah blah as when I git passionate bout somethng, mah writng sounds/looks like it's meant ta be nasty. Pleaze takes what I sez above as a proper and decent argument
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  #549    
Old October 13th, 2012 (12:50 PM).
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Quote orignally posted by Scruffngtan:
I'd like ta jon. If you had ta put a label on me, I'd consider mahself an athaist.

However, mah philosophy follows much of what tha ntellectual Sbe Harris advocates. So long as we call ourselves athaists, thugz will associate that wit negative connotations, or categorize us as simply "those who don't thnk thare is a deity." Rathar, if we call ourselves advocates of logic and reason, it becomes very hard ta argue aganst us. Not dawgy thugz is gong ta bite tha bullet and sez that thay don't support those.

Just wanna pop n and sez, yay! Anothar Sbe Harris-ian n tha hizouse!
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  #550    
Old October 13th, 2012 (01:03 PM).
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SR, pleaze takes me off tha list. Y-aw have proven that you will not talerate Christians here, so I'm gonna not even try ta git you ta respect mah view.

You fnd it unntelligible? How nsultng! I may believe n what could be an imagnary dawg, but that doesn't mean I'm a retard!

Wit that, I see tha athaists here on PC (or tha Nternet, fo that matter) won't talerate religion, and justly so.

I'm sorry ta have even ever bothared you, and I'm sorry that I ever bothared ta try ta explan mahself and mah religion.
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