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  #551    
Old October 13th, 2012, 01:19 PM
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Sign me up, why not.

I'm an optomistic agnostic you might say? I dont know if there is a term for my belief. I was raised a baptist and while I dont believe in a lot of what the bible says I think theres a god, because why not? I pray sometimes and I believe in an afterlife. I dont really believe in the classic Heaven/Hell but I think that there is some sort of afterlife other than it all just goes black and your done.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.

Abortion: Im pro-abortion.(God, that sounds awful.) I think if someone wants to get an abortion more power to em'. The world is already overpopulated and I hate most people. I dont want more of them. A lot of kids are born into really terrible situations because its "wrong" for their parents to get abortions.

Death Penalty: Im not really for or against it.
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  #552    
Old October 13th, 2012, 01:57 PM
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Sign me up. Being an atheist in one of the least religious countries in the world (The Netherlands), it's not that hard for me being an atheist. Especially in the environment I currently live in (university) where most people are not religious.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Let gay people marry! For god sake (see what I did there?), what the hell does it matter to you if two gay people get married. How does the fact that they sign a paper make your marriage seem more insignificant or more terrible? How does it affect your life? Kinda proud that my country was the first country in the world to legalize gay marriage (2001). If gay people want to be as miserable as the rest of the married couples, let them .

Abortion is legal in my country and rightly so. Overpopulation is becoming a bigger problem every day, so that's already one reason. Second, you can have an abortion untill an x amount of weeks. Before that time, the being in your body isn't sentient yet, so it's not really murdering a living being. A fly for example is more 'living' than that little pile of cells. Don't really care if it's being removed, although I do think people should not think too lightly of it. You are destroying something that eventually will be a living being. So I do think people should be heavily consulted on abortions by their doctor or something.

Death penalty: not a fan. I do get the sentiment in certain cases, but I'd rather have someone locked up for life in a little cell, than have the easy way by just ending their lives, without dealing with the consequences. Let them figure out what they did and why they need to be punished. Plus, it has happened that decades later, they found out that the guy who they killed, didn't actually commit the crime he was killed for. Hard to restore that. Easier when he is locked up.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
My parents raised me without any religious background. They did teach me to figure it all out myself, without any pressure. In my teens, I decided that religion to me was nothing more than a disturbing fairy tale with too many ****** rules that just seemed absurd to me.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
I like to think there is something, but I don't actually think there is. If there is, I do hope God won't be a prick about me not believing, but judges me on the way I lived my life. But even if there is anything after death, I don't think it will be the classical Heaven/Hell like the current religions want us to believe, though.

Do you believe in aliens?
Yes. But I don't think we will discover them untill we invent faster than light travel. The universe is immense, I don't think we are the only planet with intelligent live.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
Most people do. Whether you like the phenomenon or not, religion is a very interesting subject to talk about. And being an atheist in my country is not exactly very strange, so no reason to hide it.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
If church and state are not seperated, it's hard to have freedom of religion if your religion is not the state's. Seperation is good. It makes sure that people will always have their own freedom of religion, without the state intervening. Freedom of and from religion is good too. I don't get why people don't understand that.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I really have no clue. I like to think he is a wise old man, but that seems unlikely. If he exists, I'm guessing he is more like an all-powerful entity. Present, but not really visible.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My mother is agnostic, my father is atheist, my brothers are both atheist too. I have an aunt and uncle who are religious (Christians), but most of my family members are not really religious. Most are atheists/agnostics.
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  #553    
Old October 13th, 2012, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.
Welcome to the group!

It makes sense. Marriage in and of itself is a religious institution. I think it's more about getting equal rights than anything. Any religion has the right to say they won't marry a same sex couple, but when it comes to the government they should still be seen as equals. Separation of Church and State.
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  #554    
Old October 13th, 2012, 02:07 PM
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Thanks.

And I also dont believe very strongly in science which Im sure doesnt really fly around here. And i dont believe in Outer Space. Weird, right? Thats the kind of **** you can only tell people anonymously over the internet haha.
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  #555    
Old October 13th, 2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomX0990 View Post
Marriage in and of itself is a religious institution.
Marriage is not a religious institution. It's a social union and a state-regulated legal contract. People were marrying before Christianity was around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
Thanks.

And I also dont believe very strongly in science which Im sure most of you do. And i dont believe in Outer Space. Weird, right? Thats the kind of **** you can only tell people anonymously over the internet haha.
Science isn't something you believe in or don't believe in. It's just something you understand.

And I don't understand how you can say you don't "believe" in outer space. Look up at the sky tonight, and you'll see space. That's evidence.
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  #556    
Old October 13th, 2012, 02:23 PM
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And I don't understand how you can say you don't "believe" in outer space. Look up at the sky tonight, and you'll see space. That's evidence.
I look up at night and I see white dots, black sky, and a big white circle or part of it. I dont see planets or other galaxies or black holes or an atmosphere or anything else. And when I say I dont believe in science I mean I dont accept something just because people say its scientifically proven. Probably could have worded that better sorry.
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  #557    
Old October 13th, 2012, 03:58 PM
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Welcome to all our new members :D - and Scruffington I'm so sorry, I must have missed your joining post altogether among all the stuff that's been going on lately haha.

There's a lot of stuff I want to reply to and I will get to that, but I'm running out the door the second I finish this post, so I'll just quickly deal with the two things I find most pressing for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph
SR, please take me off the list. You all have proven that you will not tolerate Christians here, so I'm gonna not even try to get you to respect my view.

You find it unintelligible? How insulting! I may believe in what could be an imaginary man, but that doesn't mean I'm a retard!

With that, I see the atheists here on PC (or the Internet, for that matter) won't tolerate religion, and justly so.

I'm sorry to have even ever bothered you, and I'm sorry that I ever bothered to try to explain myself and my religion.
droomphy, please calm your farm. Of course we find religious arguments unintelligible. We're atheists. If we didn't find religious arguments unintelligible, we wouldn't be atheists. If a word as simple as that will offend you then it's probably for the best that you don't come here and upset yourself, but you will always be welcome if you change your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock
Gay Marriage: Im against it. Dont really have a good reason though. I think if somebody wants to be gay than whatever. I dont care if they want to have a domestic partnership I just dont want them to call it marriage, if that makes sense.
No, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Firstly, I feel the need to point out for what must be the five thousandth time, nobody ever wanted to be gay. Nobody chose it for themselves. Secondly, if you're going to have an "anti" stance on anything you have to have a reason for it. Because if you don't have a reason to be anti-something, then you have no right or cause to be anti-something. Simply stating "I don't really have a good reason" isn't really good enough when it's an issue that affects the lives of other people.
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  #558    
Old October 13th, 2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
Marriage is not a religious institution. It's a social union and a state-regulated legal contract.
Not exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scruffington View Post
People were marrying before Christianity was around.
Not really. There was a concept the social practice of bonding two people together to form unions, either political, social, or religious. But the word marriage endears it as a Sacrement, making it purely religious.

English fails in that sense.
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  #559    
Old October 13th, 2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
Well thats your opinion I guess. I reserve my right to discriminate against homosexuals for no reason at all other than disgust.
You may have the right to feel that way, but you don't have the right to discriminate on pokecommunity. There are many of them here, and especially in this club, so I would recommend holding back your thoughts on that subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
I look up at night and I see white dots, black sky, and a big white circle or part of it. I dont see planets or other galaxies or black holes or an atmosphere or anything else. And when I say I dont believe in science I mean I dont accept something just because people say its scientifically proven. Probably could have worded that better sorry.
Buy a telescope?
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  #560    
Old October 13th, 2012, 07:13 PM
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droomphy, please calm your farm. Of course we find religious arguments unintelligible. We're atheists. If we didn't find religious arguments unintelligible, we wouldn't be atheists. If a word as simple as that will offend you then it's probably for the best that you don't come here and upset yourself, but you will always be welcome if you change your mind.
I don't mind that you find me unintelligible at all - I understand. I know why you're atheist. However, you all make me feel unwelcome just for being Christian. I try to explain it to you, and rather than saying "no, I don't understand so please stop" (which I could understand!) you drag me on and on, and I feel like you all don't respect me.

I know you're trying to have a respectful conversation, but I honestly find some of the things you say insulting. And when you said "I think the general religious consensus would disagree", I felt like you weren't listening to me at all, but rather kicking me at everything that goes against your beliefs, but rarely ever mentioning what you do agree with.

I don't know what it is, but ever since I posted my thoughts on religion, or even mentioning that I'm Christian, I have felt unwelcome.

That's what I meant.

And I understand, that none of you particularly understand religion. But you should at least try - I thought the point of atheism was to create a better world than one based on arbritrary rules.
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  #561    
Old October 13th, 2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by droomph View Post
And I understand, that none of you particularly understand religion. But you should at least try - I thought the point of atheism was to create a better world than one based on arbritrary rules.
Excuse me? I have been to Catholic schools for 7 years now. I have gone to weekly classes where their entire purpose was to explain religion for over a year in the past. Don't assume the people that disagree with you are ignorant of religion.
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  #562    
Old October 13th, 2012, 07:38 PM
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Alright guys, no need to go about calling other people ignorant, or making clearly obvious trolly statements to rile others up. *deletes bunch of posts*
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  #563    
Old October 13th, 2012, 07:55 PM
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Excuse me? I have been to Catholic schools for 7 years now. I have gone to weekly classes where their entire purpose was to explain religion for over a year in the past. Don't assume the people that disagree with you are ignorant of religion.
I didn't mean you were ignorant - read again carefully. I said, don't understand.

If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like. However, you said, if I recall, that you were atheist.

You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it.

I don't mean to be rude, but I just feel that you choose not to understand. And I realize. However, don't bash on me. That's all I'm saying.
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  #564    
Old October 13th, 2012, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droomph View Post
I didn't mean you were ignorant - read again carefully. I said, don't understand.

If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like.

You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it.
I said pretty much the same thing. But not as respectfully as you hence the deleted posts and trolling infraction. Just because you hear lectures or take a test on something doesnt mean you understand it.
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  #565    
Old October 13th, 2012, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by droomph View Post
I didn't mean you were ignorant - read again carefully. I said, don't understand.

If you were religious, you would understand what religion is like. However, you said, if I recall, that you were atheist.

You may have knowledge, and I respect that, but there's nothing like experiencing it.

I don't mean to be rude, but I just feel that you choose not to understand. And I realize. However, don't bash on me. That's all I'm saying.
I was Catholic for a long time before I decided it wasn't for me. So don't try that "there's nothing like experiencing it" as if all atheists haven't been religious in the past. That is rude, no matter how you try to couch it in diplomacy, to imply that people don't disagree with you because they actually disagree, but because they don't "understand" what you're saying.

Saying you choose not to know/understand something is saying that you're ignorant. That's the definition of ignorant, and you're choosing to assume that we're just either not willing or not able to understand because it's more acceptable to you than realizing that we understand and don't agree with you. Why are you making that assumption? The assumption that "we just don't understand" borders on arrogant; it assumes that you must be right no matter what we say.

Notice that in the past in this very club I have defended religion, Catholicism in particular because that's the denomination I have the most experience with. I am farther from ignorant on the subject than most anyone I have ever met, people on PC included.
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  #566    
Old October 13th, 2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
I was Catholic for a long time before I decided it wasn't for me. So don't try that "there's nothing like experiencing it" as if all atheists haven't been religious in the past. That is rude, no matter how you try to couch it in diplomacy, to imply that people don't disagree with you because they actually disagree, but because they don't "understand" what you're saying.

Saying you choose not to know/understand something is saying that you're ignorant. That's the definition of ignorant, and you're choosing to assume that we're just either not willing or not able to understand because it's more acceptable to you than realizing that we understand and don't agree with you. Why are you making that assumption? The assumption that "we just don't understand" borders on arrogant; it assumes that you must be right no matter what we say.

Notice that in the past in this very club I have defended religion, Catholicism in particular because that's the denomination I have the most experience with. I am farther from ignorant on the subject than most anyone I have ever met, people on PC included.
Wouldnt a man/woman of science say misunderstanding is the base of a disagreement? Cant there only be one right or wrong answer? And just because you used to be Catholic doesnt mean you fully understood the Catholic Religion.

And droomph, dear god, whatever you do dont use the word ignorant. And Toujours quit trying to put that word into his mouth.
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  #567    
Old October 13th, 2012, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
I said pretty much the same thing. But not as respectfully as you hence the deleted posts and trolling infraction. Just because you hear lectures or take a test on something doesnt mean you understand it.
The entire purpose of a test is to prove you understand something.
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  #568    
Old October 13th, 2012, 08:14 PM
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The entire purpose of a test is to prove you understand something.
But just because you pass a test it doesnt mean you understand it. In math for example, you can learn how to use an equation to solve a problem but you dont necessarily understand what you are doing when you use that equation.
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  #569    
Old October 13th, 2012, 08:31 PM
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I think you guys are just going to have to agree to disagree on the point of whether an atheist can truly understand religious views/feelings or not because you can't seem to debate this without arguing and arguments haven't gone very well in here in the last 24 hours. Please turn the discussion elsewhere--this forum isn't really for debates. Those posts were deleted for a reason and it looks like we're heading int he same direction pretty quickly, so I think it's time to start a new topic.

Clubs are safe-havens for like-minded people and while it's okay for non-atheists to come and mingle to build an understanding between the two groups, if a full-on debate is inevitable, it belongs in Other Chat & Discussions, not here.
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  #570    
Old October 13th, 2012, 08:59 PM
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(I wasn't part of it)

I never said that you specifically didn't understand it though. I wanna make that clear before we get off the subject.

Anyways.
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  #571    
Old October 14th, 2012, 12:28 AM
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Jeez, what even happened here? I leave the house for six hours and come home to find a nuke has gone off! I went to a friend's house to watch Breaking Bad, but I should have just stayed home. There was more excitement here than even a show about a crystal meth lab could provide!

Reading over the thread (before everything went south) I realise there isn't actually as much I'd like to reply to as I first thought. I would like to say though, that everything Barrels posts is perfectly in line with me. 10/10 would read again. He almost makes me irrelevant, as everything I have to say (other than the things I never would have thought to say, of which there are many) would be a less eloquent exercise in repetition .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrels
Of everything I love – my family, my friends, the decent people all over the world I will never meet. I cannot and will not accept that these people deserve to be burned alive for all eternity for not believing in God. I will not sit quietly in Heaven as they scream below me. This is my moral stand.
I actually teared up. You could lead a revolt on words like that, and I would follow you to the ends of the Earth.
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  #572    
Old October 14th, 2012, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by droomph View Post
(I wasn't part of it)

I never said that you specifically didn't understand it though. I wanna make that clear before we get off the subject.

Anyways.
You specifically said "none of you understand religion". You should be very careful of such strong stances, especially if you intend to back down from them once people call you out on them.

@Andy: Another not-so-feeling-filled point that I was making to my mom recently - a lot of things I love about my mom are actually considered sinful. So say God is more merciful than Christians on Earth apparently are and allow my mom and I into heaven, as basically good people. The mother that I meet there will be a sanitized version of my mom, without a lot of her personality. Although I guess I'll be sanitized into not liking those parts of her in that case too, so I won't be myself anymore either. :/
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  #573    
Old October 14th, 2012, 02:28 AM
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Whoa. I got some time to come over, and I see an all out war. Well, not really but you get the point.

Quote:
[From Barrels I think]
Of everything I love – my family, my friends, the decent people all over the world I will never meet. I cannot and will not accept that these people deserve to be burned alive for all eternity for not believing in God. I will not sit quietly in Heaven as they scream below me. This is my moral stand.
Whoa. If I hadn't been a Christian I would be hoping to put that quote on my sig, its so epic. And since I've never thought of it from that perspective I can't really respond...

Anyways. Hopefully we don't start another argument. But here goes. How do you guys (atheists reading) wrap your minds about time? Do you believe in quantum theory or something that says universes are born out of sparks of cosmic energy or something? How do you think time began? For me, I can't say I find any of the existing theories convincing. But we don't have much of evidence to help form any theories based on science either..
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  #574    
Old October 14th, 2012, 02:37 AM
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I'll be the first one to say that I don't understand in-depth scientific theories about how time began. Hell, I don't understand a lot of scientific theories that affect my everyday life. I hope I get to a point in my life where I have the time and energy to devote to trying to understand it, but that point is not right now, haha. x_o
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  #575    
Old October 14th, 2012, 04:45 AM
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The beginning of time is an interesting topic albeit unremitting in its inability to bring forth concrete, proven truth.

To imply there was a true beginning, that would require an outside force. Thus, it was not the true beginning. I find it ironic that discussing the beginning and end of the universe is much like the actual thing- an endless loop.

We already know that space and time can dilate, so it's very possible that everything that has ever happened, is happening, and will happen has occurred and is occurring at the same moment and we are just experiencing it at the pace of a human traveling on earth. Time is relative.

Personally, I think time is, as I said, an endless loop without beginning or end. I was not brought into existence on my birthday, and I will not cease to exist when I die. Cremated or buried, either way I will return to the earth after leaving it when the first carbon-based organism spawned. Within the earth, the elements that once served as my body will be used and changed in many different ways until one day our Sun envelopes Earth and I return to the stars to do what I did billions of years ago. As part of the Universe, I am forced to believe that this is how it works as well. If our particular Universe could speak and you asked it, "what happened before the Big Bang?" it may not have an answer much like how we have no memory of before we were born- but we still existed and so did the outside world.

Sorry if I conveyed this poorly (which I often to about my opinions..) or if it seems out of place, I just noticed the current topic posted by FrostPhoenix and felt an urge to reply since it's one of the things I'm currently into researching.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
And i dont believe in Outer Space.
I just..what? There are many people who are literally living in outer space.
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又 yltfos os kaeps and low 又
Wandering Allowed, Wondering Aloud

Last edited by Keiran; October 14th, 2012 at 04:54 AM.
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