Atheist Alliance

[Barrels]

Oh... wow. I feel like there are some things I need to say before I leave the discussion, but it's tough to marshal my thoughts on everything that's been said.

First... I honestly do feel bad if I've upset anyone with my comments. That wasn't my intention, but it looks as if I've managed to break one of the most important rules of the internet during this discussion ('don't be a dick'), and for that I apologise. Perhaps offence is an inevitable consequence of arguing about things like morality – but perhaps it isn’t, and I’m sure I could have conducted myself in a more controlled manner. So on that note...

Thank you Shdwj for being so gracious: ‘I do thank you for reading our posts, and I thank you for being kind enough to share you views as well.’ (I wish I had your ability to remain so calm and level-headed during this type of discussion!) Thank you droomph for answering my questions, and again, I am truly sorry if I contributed to your decision to leave. Any argument that ends with a participant removing themselves from the vicinity isn’t won by their opponent, after all. And finally, thank you Andy and FrostPheonix for your very kind words.

I’m off now. Thanks for the debate, guys – you were all awesome.

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Keiran777

I just..what? There are many people who are literally living in outer space.

The post in which I tried to explain my views has been deleted and Im not going to try and do it again. Apparently my opinions are too offensive to argue.

[Went]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

The post in which I tried to explain my views has been deleted and Im not going to try and do it again. Apparently my opinions are too offensive to argue.

Offensive? What? Saying that "outer space doesn't exist" is like saying "Ecuatorial Guinea doesn't exist" ._. People have been there, you know. There is nothing to argue about. That's not offensive. Just wrong.

And your latest posts have been deleted for being too close to trolling. If that's the way your debates go in general, we'd rather be without them. There have been far much richer and interesting ones in the last few pages.

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Went

Offensive? What? Saying that "outer space doesn't exist" is like saying "Ecuatorial Guinea doesn't exist" ._. People have been there, you know. There is nothing to argue about. That's not offensive. Just wrong.

And your latest posts have been deleted for being too close to trolling. If that's the way your debates go in general, we'd rather be without them. There have been far much richer and interesting ones in the last few pages.

Im not saying that my not believing in space is offensive. My other opinions are apparently. And I probably shouldnt do this but, whatever:

Just because the news says people have been to space doesnt mean they really have. I dont accept things just because people on TV say they are "scientifically proven." I would think that more skeptics would share this opinion but nope. Most just blindly accept what they are told as long as it claims to be proven by science.

[Went]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

Im not saying that my not believing in space is offensive. My other opinions are apparently. And I probably shouldnt do this but, whatever:

Just because the news says people have been to space doesnt mean they really have. I dont accept things just because people on TV say they are "scientifically proven." I would think that more skeptics would share this opinion but nope. Most just blindly accept what they are told as long as it claims to be proven by science.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "science". The idea of science is trying to give an explanation for a certain phenomenon that a) logically describes why it happens, b) predicts when it's going to happen again and c) fits every instance of the phenomenon, so there aren't any exceptions for a rule.

The point of this is that the explanation that fits all these requirements is the best accepted one. But, if for some reason, there is an instance of the phenomenon that doesn't follow the current laws, or the theory fails to predict an instance, or the logical chain the explanation is based upon is proved false, or if a new, more complete theory is found, the previous one will be discarded. As such, if you "blindly accept" what science says, you are doing it wrong, because science itself asks anybody who cares about it to constantly check the theories and try to disprove them. If they are logically disproven, science moves forward. If they aren't, they hold stronger as their certainty has overcame a challenge.

Of course, your regular Joe in the street doesn't have enough knowledge to try to disprove a theory, and that's why people rely on experts to do so. But, if the millions of scientists checking theories don't find anything seriously wrong about them, it's safe to say that they are as correct as they can get. On the other hand, if someone proves some theory wrong, the general consensus will shift. Just a handful of scientists (like the couple of hundreds who support creationism) will refuse to accept it. True science means that you can try to prove everyone wrong, as long as you accept to be proven wrong if your theories are successfully challenged. Of course, if a theory has remained unchallenged for centuries despite constant research, it is safe to accept it by default and use it as a jumpstart, even if it can be eventually be proven wrong.

But all of this has nothing to do with "going into space". That's not only science. That's not the work of "evil TV's". That's dozens of living people going there, and talking to other people, and bringing rocks and pictures and experiments. That's thousands of satellites there, predicting the weather, taking pictures of the Earth (from where could they be taken if there is nowhere outside of the Earth??). That's the GPS positioning system. That's thousands of rockets being sent into space by dozens of countries during several decades. If all of that is part of a conspiracy, boy howdy is that an extraordinary waste of time and resources for no apparent purpose, one nobody has properly uncovered yet 50 years later.

And even if the discussions between Religion (believe even if there is no evidence) and science (challenge everything you can as long as you have evidence) are somewhat relevant, we are getting offtopic here so I'll stop XD

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Went

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "science". The idea of science is trying to give an explanation for a certain phenomenon that a) logically describes why it happens, b) predicts when it's going to happen again and c) fits every instance of the phenomenon, so there aren't any exceptions for a rule.

The point of this is that the explanation that fits all these requirements is the best accepted one. But, if for some reason, there is an instance of the phenomenon that doesn't follow the current laws, or the theory fails to predict an instance, or the logical chain the explanation is based upon is proved false, or if a new, more complete theory is found, the previous one will be discarded. As such, if you "blindly accept" what science says, you are doing it wrong, because science itself asks anybody who cares about it to constantly check the theories and try to disprove them. If they are logically disproven, science moves forward. If they aren't, they hold stronger as their certainty has overcame a challenge.

Of course, your regular Joe in the street doesn't have enough knowledge to try to disprove a theory, and that's why people rely on experts to do so. But, if the millions of scientists checking theories don't find anything seriously wrong about them, it's safe to say that they are as correct as they can get. On the other hand, if someone proves some theory wrong, the general consensus will shift. Just a handful of scientists (like the couple of hundreds who support creationism) will refuse to accept it. True science means that you can try to prove everyone wrong, as long as you accept to be proven wrong if your theories are successfully challenged. Of course, if a theory has remained unchallenged for centuries despite constant research, it is safe to accept it by default and use it as a jumpstart, even if it can be eventually be proven wrong.

But all of this has nothing to do with "going into space". That's not only science. That's not the work of "evil TV's". That's dozens of living people going there, and talking to other people, and bringing rocks and pictures and experiments. That's thousands of satellites there, predicting the weather, taking pictures of the Earth (from where could they be taken if there is nowhere outside of the Earth??). That's the GPS positioning system. That's thousands of rockets being sent into space by dozens of countries during several decades. If all of that is part of a conspiracy, boy howdy is that an extraordinary waste of time and resources for no apparent purpose, one nobody has properly uncovered yet 50 years later.

And even if the discussions between Religion (believe even if there is no evidence) and science (challenge everything you can as long as you have evidence) are somewhat relevant, we are getting offtopic here so I'll stop XD

I understand science in the way you explained it. I was talking about Adam Atheist(No offense intended. I am referring to the close minded condescending atheists that give atheists a bad name.) who sees something on TV which there is no proof for except that the news anchor says its scientifically proven and then mocks all those who dont believe it. And I guess Im just a conspiracy theorist then. Outer Space just doesnt make much sense to me. Maybe as I get older Ill see something that will make me come to believe in space but I refuse to have faith in the scientific community.

[F1refly]

One only has to look into a Telescope to prove that Space "exists". I myself have seen Saturn and it's rings, in my own back garden with a powerful telescope. I even saw a meteor going slowly acros the sky on Friday. Here where I live I can see satelites slowly trekking their way across the night sky, make out most constellations and even spot UFOs. Well, I don't think I've seen any yet, but we do have a UFO research centre

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by F1refly

One only has to look into a Telescope to prove that Space "exists". I myself have seen Saturn and it's rings, in my own back garden with a powerful telescope. I even saw a meteor going slowly acros the sky on Friday. Here where I live I can see satelites slowly trekking their way across the night sky, make out most constellations and even spot UFOs. Well, I don't think I've seen any yet, but we do have a UFO research centre

Ive never seen any planets but what you saw could have easily been somehing else.

Originally Posted by F1refly

One only has to look into a Telescope to prove that Space "exists". I myself have seen Saturn and it's rings, in my own back garden with a powerful telescope. I even saw a meteor going slowly acros the sky on Friday. Here where I live I can see satelites slowly trekking their way across the night sky, make out most constellations and even spot UFOs. Well, I don't think I've seen any yet, but we do have a UFO research centre

Ive never seen any planets but what you saw could have easily been something else.

[Toujours]

So, let me get this straight - you don't believe in observation being a solid basis for belief, and you don't believe scientists because you don't think they're telling the truth, but you refuse to do research on it yourself? And you're Christian, because that's so logical and make so much sense, but don't believe in what you can see?



Edit: Have you told your science teacher at school this belief?

[droomph]

Well to be fair, the sky does look kinda bland...I find it hard to believe that there's something above that swath of black.

But given that I've been on airplanes...

And honestly, even I find it kinda...weird that you believe observation isn't proof enough, though...I don't know.

I...have nothing to say...no offense but that's just dumb, any way you look at it. Ifthere's no outer space, how can planes fly? Where's the "cap" at? 50 miles? And given that we can plainly see that solar storms have effects on us...Why aren't we all burned up by the sun? And if the sun is that small, how is it possible to keep going for generations after generation?

Whatever.

Edit: how can you not believe in science? I can see that given faith has no real "proof", that some people are rightly skeptical of religion.

But science is truth, however you look at it!

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Toujours

So, let me get this straight - you don't believe in observation being a solid basis for belief, and you don't believe scientists because you don't think they're telling the truth, but you refuse to do research on it yourself? And you're Christian, because that's so logical and make so much sense, but don't believe in what you can see?



Edit: Have you told your science teacher at school this belief?

I think either scientists are lying or the people on TV are lying. I goto a ****** school and my science teachers just read the text books and give tests. They dont really care about science. And Im not really christian but I believe in God because it makes more sense to do so than not to. I dont think that the white dots in the sky are giant balls of burning gas billions of miles away. It doesnt really make much sense. Ive never had the reasoning for it explained to me because Ive never had a science teacher that was any good. Ive seen Stephen Hawkings Mysteries of the Universe on Netflix and it seemed like a crock.

And droomph how is science truth any way you look at it when even scientists disagree with each other. Different scientists believe in different theories. And I just havent seen enough proof to believe in solar storms and all that nonsense.

[Toujours]

You didn't answer my question at all. Have your told your science teacher at school this belief?

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by droomph

Well, that doesn't give you an excuse to doubt science.

I can see why you don't like your science teachers, but I can't believe you don't believe in science because of that.

I say that you do some research on basic science. It will make sense once you can see what science is.

And...just...no. Any way you look at it, outer space is still there.

I can doubt science if I want to. I dont need an excuse. And I understand most basic science. Ive always gotten As on my science tests and never gotten worse than a B in any science class if that counts for anything. And I dont believe it is. At least not in the way its been shown to me.

and no Toujours I dont think I have. Ive asked questions about other things that didnt make sense to me like parts of the Evolution theory but Ive always been scoffed at and ignored. I dont know why I would ask my science teacher anything. I dont think very highly of her opinion.

[FrostPheonix]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

I think either scientists are lying or the people on TV are lying. I goto a ****** school and my science teachers just read the text books and give tests. They dont really care about science. And Im not really christian but I believe in God because it makes more sense to do so than not to. I dont think that the white dots in the sky are giant balls of burning gas billions of miles away. It doesnt really make much sense. Ive never had the reasoning for it explained to me because Ive never had a science teacher that was any good. Ive seen Stephen Hawkings Mysteries of the Universe on Netflix and it seemed like a crock.

And droomph how is science truth any way you look at it when even scientists disagree with each other. Different scientists believe in different theories. And I just havent seen enough proof to believe in solar storms and all that nonsense.

I can see where you're coming from. But space is just different. What happens to the rockets that go up? Come back down? Cuz if they do, someone would notice and tell the whole world. And yeah, the stars being balls of gas seems weird. But like others said, look through a telescope. How can that be something else? What is the moon? If you consider the stuff that happens, space fits in to other scientific theorems. Solar storms, ok, I don't really bother think about them, but the stars? Existence of space? Think about it. Gravity, for example, is part of space. Maybe Ill try say more later. But thats just what I think.

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by FrostPheonix

I can see where you're coming from. But space is just different. What happens to the rockets that go up? Come back down? Cuz if they do, someone would notice and tell the whole world. And yeah, the stars being balls of gas seems weird. But like others said, look through a telescope. How can that be something else? What is the moon? If you consider the stuff that happens, space fits in to other scientific theorems. Solar storms, ok, I don't really bother think about them, but the stars? Existence of space? Think about it. Gravity, for example, is part of space. Maybe Ill try say more later. But thats just what I think.

i dont have answers to why everything in the sky is how it is. I dont think there is no Outer Space at all I just dont think it is the way we are taught it is. Rockets could easily go up above the clouds and come back down couldnt they? Gravity comes from the earth doesnt it? Arent we all drawn to the earth by its gravitational pull not another planets or a stars? Thank you for not completely ****ting on my beliefs haha.

Somebody watch Mysteries of the Universe with Steven Hawking on Netflix and tell me all that makes sense. It is very far fetched and alot of it seemed baseless.

[droomph]

Baseless because you most likely don't understand the basics of what he's trying to say. Don't just say it's baseless, prove it.

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

I can doubt science if I want to. I dont need an excuse. And I understand most basic science. Ive always gotten As on my science tests and never gotten worse than a B in any science class if that counts for anything. And I dont believe it is. At least not in the way its been shown to me.

and no Toujours I dont think I have. Ive asked questions about other things that didnt make sense to me like parts of the Evolution theory but Ive always been scoffed at and ignored. I dont know why I would ask my science teacher anything. I dont think very highly of her opinion.

Okay, let's approach it from this way - outer space is something that's been accepted by everyone. Millions upon millions of scientists that have been learning more and more about the planets, stars, galaxies out there, sending out probes, pouring billions of dollars a year into this kind of research. It's so widespread that Googling "outer space doesn't exist" doesn't come up with even half-reputable sources in all the pages I searched for it (for the record I went 5 pages deep). The world is critical and loves a scandal; take the global warming numbers that were fudged and how the news was all over it.

What's the motive for the millions of people across centuries of time all reporting the same thing, no people debunking it, no one disagreeing with it? Why would they do that? Why not just tell the truth, if it didn't exist?

In addition, your complete dismissal of all science should be logically followed by a replacement with your own beliefs. While it may be "simpler" for you to just do some hand-waving and say "God did it with magic!", it's not the sign of an intelligent, educated person to not attempt to understand the world around them.

Edit, since you posted again: Droomph is 100% right. Do you have scientific proof that shows that his is baseless? Obviously they're not going to go into all the science in a TV special, because people without a significant background in science wouldn't understand even the most basic concepts. And why do you say gravity comes from the Earth? The scientific explanation of gravity is that gravity is caused by mass. You can acknowledge that planets move, you can see them at times in the sky (such as Venus certain times of the year). Why are you seeing them again and again? They move, but then come back. Why? Because of their mass, their gravity puts them in orbit in a balance with all the other planets in the galaxy and our star.

Also, you have to specify how much science you dismiss due to your "beliefs". Do you believe the Earth is flat? Do you believe in the boiling point of water? Do you believe that you have a body?

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Toujours

Okay, let's approach it from this way - outer space is something that's been accepted by everyone. Millions upon millions of scientists that have been learning more and more about the planets, stars, galaxies out there, sending out probes, pouring billions of dollars a year into this kind of research. It's so widespread that Googling "outer space doesn't exist" doesn't come up with even half-reputable sources in all the pages I searched for it (for the record I went 5 pages deep). The world is critical and loves a scandal; take the global warming numbers that were fudged and how the news was all over it.

What's the motive for the millions of people across centuries of time all reporting the same thing, no people debunking it, no one disagreeing with it? Why would they do that? Why not just tell the truth, if it didn't exist?

In addition, your complete dismissal of all science should be logically followed by a replacement with your own beliefs. While it may be "simpler" for you to just do some hand-waving and say "God did it with magic!", it's not the sign of an intelligent, educated person to not attempt to understand the world around them.

Not everyone believes in space. And even if they did, a few hundred years ago everyone believed the world was flat. Just because no one else thinks something doesnt make it untrue. And I dont completely dismiss all science. And who are you to say what the sign of an intelligent educated person is? You put a unnecessary comma after intelligent! :o That doesnt seem like something an intelligent educated person would do. Also, I never claimed to be an intelligent educated person. Maybe Im just a stupid yokel who thinks space doesnt exist because no one ever taught me the "proper" way to think.

And droomph, how can you claim science is the one undeniable truth when only a tiny fraction of scientists believe there can be a God and claim to be a christian?

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

Not everyone believes in space. And even if they did, a few hundred years ago everyone believed the world was flat. Just because no one else thinks something doesnt make it untrue. And I dont completely dismiss all science. And who are you to say what the sign of an intelligent educated person is? You put a unnecessary comma after intelligent! :o That doesnt seem like something an intelligent educated person would do. Also, I never claimed to be an intelligent educated person. Maybe Im just a stupid yokel who thinks space doesnt exist because no one ever taught me the "proper" way to think.

First of all, I didn't put an unnecessary comma anywhere. You don't understand grammar if you think I did. That's a list of adjectives, not a phrase. Lists have commas.

Show me three people who have scientific reasons to not believe that outer space exists. You are not included. You have no scientific reasons. If you've done even the most basic research you should have something to back yourself up, yeah? If not, why bother trying to argue this?

Maybe you are. You said it, not me.

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Toujours

First of all, I didn't put an unnecessary comma anywhere. You don't understand grammar if you think I did. That's a list of adjectives, not a phrase. Lists have commas.

Show me three people who have scientific reasons to not believe that outer space exists. You are not included. You have no scientific reasons. If you've done even the most basic research you should have something to back yourself up, yeah? If not, why bother trying to argue this?

Maybe you are. You said it, not me.

Yes you did. Unless Im mistaken, you only need a comma in a list of adjectives if you have 3 or more adjectives. Even if its only two you didnt put a comma after educated so its still wrong.

I dont need to. Im just answering questions about my beliefs.

Well, you certainly insinuated it.

[Went]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

Not everyone believes in space. And even if they did, a few hundred years ago everyone believed the world was flat. Just because no one else thinks something doesnt make it untrue.

A few hundred years ago (actually over 500 years ago), people didn't have enough ways to gather evidence to prove or disprove it, so they went with their own eyes: the horizon looked flat, ergo it must have been flat! Your eyes though, have been telling you and billions of people over thousands of years that there are stars on the sky.

And (I'm remembering now Rumsfeld's quote about the "unknown unknowns"), it's true that something can't be discarded just because nobody else agrees with it. Nobody thought about evolution before Darwin's age. But, the thing is, you can't accept something as a fact unless you have evidence to back it up. It can't be disproven, but it can't be proven either, and something is not true unless it's proven. Ergo, as it's not proven, it's not true. You don't need to disprove something that has been never proved before.

But, going ahead. Outer space has been proven. It's not a matter of "since we can't be sure, I'll go with my own beliefs", as in the legendary god argument. In this case, the existence of outer space has been proven. If you want to argue that it doesn't exist, go on and gather evidence to disprove the huuuuuuuuuuge rolls of evidence in favour of its existence. Otherwise, it's "there is all this evidence" against "I think that". I know what I'll be going with.

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Went

Outer space has been proven. It's not a matter of "since we can't be sure, I'll go with my own beliefs", as in the legendary god argument.

How has it been proven? And it sure is a matter of "since we can't be sure, I'll go with my own beliefs".

[SwiftSign]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

How has it been proven? And it sure is a matter of "since we can't be sure, I'll go with my own beliefs".

Evidence (which even your average person can understand):

You watch TV? Most TV satellites are circling the earth, in space. If not then how are you watching the TV?

Photos from space.

The Sun, unless you believe it is a small ball in the sky.

Telescopes give first hand evidence (as others have mentioned).

The moon. You might not believe people have been there but you can clearly see it in space, if it was in the limits of our 'sky' then we could fly planes there easy peasy.

[Toujours]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

I dont need to. Im just answering questions about my beliefs.

You made a claim of fact. If you're going to make a claim of fact (people believe this), then you have to back yourself up. Your refusal to back yourself up shows that you have no actual reason to believe this, it's just easier for you to yell "MAGIC" at the world and pretend that it all solves itself.

The way science works, to expand on Went's final paragraph, is that there are scientific theories, countless theories, that are based around the existence of space and explain many things about our world. If you truly want to make a case for this, your job is to disprove them. I would suggest starting with scientific papers; science shows on TV aren't good enough because they don't deal with the scientific foundation, just the conclusions.

What part of the evidence in scientific papers do you disagree with?

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Toujours

You made a claim of fact. If you're going to make a claim of fact (people believe this), then you have to back yourself up. Your refusal to back yourself up shows that you have no actual reason to believe this, it's just easier for you to yell "MAGIC" at the world and pretend that it all solves itself.

The way science works, to expand on Went's final paragraph, is that there are scientific theories, countless theories, that are based around the existence of space and explain many things about our world. If you truly want to make a case for this, your job is to disprove them. I would suggest starting with scientific papers; science shows on TV aren't good enough because they don't deal with the scientific foundation, just the conclusions.

What part of the evidence in scientific papers do you disagree with?

When did I make a claim of fact? Ive never read any scientific papers because im not interested in Space because I dont think it exists in the way most people do.

@Swiftsign, I have cable. Photos can easily be faked. Im not sure what the sun is but I have a hard time believing its a ball of burning gas 90 million miles away that we all rotate around at astronomical speeds. The things you see in the sky could just be illusions like the northern lights. Maybe the moon is higher than any plane can fly, or else its not a rock that people can stand on but some sort of optical illusion like the northern lights.

Im going to say again, I dont think there is nothing out in space but I dont think its the way everyone else thinks it is. It doesnt make sense to me.