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  #601    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:10 PM).
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I can't honestly tell if you are serious or not. Go outside with a telescope, look up. SPACE. "I believe" is never valid in arguments nor supportive. When you use "Well I believe" then you lost your argument because you are wrong when it comes to a proven fact that is generally accepted.

Basically what you are saying is, math doesn't exist. I was taught math in school, but I don't believe in it so it doesn't exist. I don't have any reason to believe it doesn't exist, I just don't believe in it even though I have a whole text book written by people with PHDs and Doctrites. Not to mention all of my collage graduate teachers are wrong because Math doesn't exist cause I believe it doesn't exist.

There are various elements that are found from space, stones collected and beought back, video recordings of planets and planetoids. You have the Sun which is hot and produces light. 2 things that cannot happen without it being 1) a giant lightbulb that uses a special filament to create light as electricity passes through it which also releases a gas as it makes light or 2) a ball of super heated gas that's on fire.

You also used Gravity...Gravity is scientifically proven. You believe in Gravity but nothing else in science? Gravity is one of the generally accepted facts that is disputed by scientists more so than space.

Questioning accepted truths is what Science is all about, but when all the sources all say the same thing and there is no room to question it further, its a fact that cannot be disputed. No one argues if Space exists. Its there you don't need a scientist to tell you its there. You can look at the night sky with or without a telescope. With a telescope you can see even more of space.
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  #602    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:13 PM).
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Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock View Post
Maybe the moon is higher than any plane can fly, or else its not a rock that people can stand on but some sort of optical illusion like the northern lights.
Right lets continue this point then.

Did you know it's possible to fire a laser at the moon and bounce it off a metal sheet PLACED there during the moon landings? If the moon was an illusion (or if the moon landing was faked) then this was be impossible.

Mythbusters can vouch for this!

Also, to elaborate on 'maybe it's too high to fly to' - what makes it hard for a plane to fly there? If there is no space than air pressure/consistancy wouldn't change and we would just have to fly up. However, that doesn't work. If air gets thinner the higher you go then can you not see how logical it is that there is a distance from the earth where there are no air molecules and there is 'space'?
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  #603    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:22 PM). Edited October 14th, 2012 by AChipOffTheOldBrock.
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I can't honestly tell if you are serious or not. Go outside with a telescope, look up. SPACE. "I believe" is never valid in arguments nor supportive. When you use "Well I believe" then you lost your argument because you are wrong when it comes to a proven fact that is generally accepted.

Basically what you are saying is, math doesn't exist. I was taught math in school, but I don't believe in it so it doesn't exist. I don't have any reason to believe it doesn't exist, I just don't believe in it even though I have a whole text book written by people with PHDs and Doctrites. Not to mention all of my collage graduate teachers are wrong because Math doesn't exist cause I believe it doesn't exist.

There are various elements that are found from space, stones collected and beought back, video recordings of planets and planetoids. You have the Sun which is hot and produces light. 2 things that cannot happen without it being 1) a giant lightbulb that uses a special filament to create light as electricity passes through it which also releases a gas as it makes light or 2) a ball of super heated gas that's on fire.

You also used Gravity...Gravity is scientifically proven. You believe in Gravity but nothing else in science? Gravity is one of the generally accepted facts that is disputed by scientists more so than space.

Questioning accepted truths is what Science is all about, but when all the sources all say the same thing and there is no room to question it further, its a fact that cannot be disputed. No one argues if Space exists. Its there you don't need a scientist to tell you its there. You can look at the night sky with or without a telescope. With a telescope you can see even more of space.
"I believe" is valid in arguments. All "proven facts" were originally theories werent they?

I get what your trying to say with your second paragraph but Math is different. You have all the evidence right in front of you, there isnt any possibility for error. Also, you spelled doctorate wrong. And its "college" not "collage". Its not important but Im just saying.

So questioning accepted truths is what science is all about but when everyone accepts it you shouldnt question it? Makes sense.

Youve got to open your eyes and look at other possibilities. I "argue if space exists. And if you read my other posts you'd know I dont believe that what I see in the night sky is nothing. I just dont believe it is what scientists say it is.

You shouldnt just accept something because everyone else does and tells you you should.


Alright. @swiftsign, based on the air molecule thing I can get how there can be some kind of empty space and I accept that. But I dont believe in all that stuff about solar storms and infinite solar systems or even stars. Ill respond to your other question once I get done watching this mythbusters video.

EDIT: Alright Im done watching it. That could have very easily been faked. And how big must those retrorflectors be for them to be able to hit it with a laser from earth and get a response? It should be about 900 meters square according to this website. How did they get that to the moon and in place? Eh, its not enough for me.
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  #604    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:25 PM).
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When did I make a claim of fact? Ive never read any scientific papers because im not interested in Space because I dont think it exists in the way most people do.

@Swiftsign, I have cable. Photos can easily be faked. Im not sure what the sun is but I have a hard time believing its a ball of burning gas 90 million miles away that we all rotate around at astronomical speeds. The things you see in the sky could just be illusions like the northern lights. Maybe the moon is higher than any plane can fly, or else its not a rock that people can stand on but some sort of optical illusion like the northern lights.

Im going to say again, I dont think there is nothing out in space but I dont think its the way everyone else thinks it is. It doesnt make sense to me.
If you have no wish to make a real argument, stop arguing. The purpose of an argument is to present evidence and arrive at a truth; if you have no intention of arriving at a truth because you choose ignorance over knowledge, then no one here can help you. "Space doesn't exist" is a statement of fact. Even if you say it's a belief, you believe in an objective statement. Therefore, logic would dictate that you have a logical reason to think this. Logic would dictate since you're so secure in this claim, that you have done intellectual research and found mistakes in the research of the rest of the scientific community. Do you not believe in logic either, like the earth being round and water boiling?

The claim of fact you made is that there are people that do believe this. To say a claim like that, you have to back it up. Who are these "people" that you believe over the millions of scientists that think you're wrong? Why are they more reliable than the consensus of everyone else in the world?
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  #605    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:30 PM).
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If you have no wish to make a real argument, stop arguing. The purpose of an argument is to present evidence and arrive at a truth; if you have no intention of arriving at a truth because you choose ignorance over knowledge, then no one here can help you. "Space doesn't exist" is a statement of fact. Even if you say it's a belief, you believe in an objective statement. Therefore, logic would dictate that you have a logical reason to think this. Logic would dictate since you're so secure in this claim, that you have done intellectual research and found mistakes in the research of the rest of the scientific community. Do you not believe in logic either, like the earth being round and water boiling?

The claim of fact you made is that there are people that do believe this. To say a claim like that, you have to back it up. Who are these "people" that you believe over the millions of scientists that think you're wrong? Why are they more reliable than the consensus of everyone else in the world?
I didnt say I wanted to have my belief proven wrong. I said I dont believe in Space. And in other posts I clarified that I dont believe in certain things about space not that I dont believe in empty space itself. And even if it is an "objective statement" I can believe it if I want to. You have no right to tell me I cant. Your a Richard Dawkins level dick. I never said there are other people that believe the same thing I do. I didnt base my beliefs on what someone told me. I just thought about it and came to a conclusion. I believe myself ove the millions of scientists that think Im wrong.
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  #606    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:41 PM).
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Yes "I believe" is invalid because your beliefs have no proof to them. There is proof that space exists. There has been proof that it exists for hundreds of years. Where do Meteors come from? How do you explain something falling out of the sky if there is nothing beyond our sky?

And Math is as real as Science as far as your argument is concerned. Math is made of nothing but theories and algorithms that change as often as science does until it cannot be improved upon. Math makes up science as a whole. Since math makes up science since science is fake, so is math.

Yes Science is about questioning accepted truths until they cannot be questioned. When you cannot come up with a valid question, then the theories are proven as facts. You cannot question if space exists. Your only reason for saying it doesn't is "I believe" in which case your beliefs are wrong because it exists, it has extensive proof that it exists as well as phenomenon that happen ever so often out there that effects the planet as a whole.

Space exists. There is no one that questions whether or not it exists with graduate degrees or work is specific fields. You cannot even disprove that it does exist outside of "I believe" so your argument holds no valid points. All you are going to do is blindly disregard everything put in front of you because you don't want to believe it.
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  #607    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:41 PM).
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Somebody watch Mysteries of the Universe with Steven Hawking on Netflix and tell me all that makes sense. It is very far fetched and alot of it seemed baseless.

If you want to watch something about cosmology on Netflix I recommend Cosmos with Carl Sagan (Neil Degrasse Tyson is hosting an updated version which should be out in 1-2 years). Those Discovery/Nova programs featuring Stephen Hawking aren't really written well and aim to please with computer graphics rather than their facts. I tried watching them and their ability to convey the subject matter was poor at best. I felt bad for Mr. Hawking.

Also, the sun isn't an illusion. We feel its heat and we can draw solar power from it. The moon isn't an illusion, we feel its gravity and have what is called "tide". It can also physically block the sun's light and produce an eclipse. The northern lights aren't illusions either, they are due to collision of charged particles directed by the earths magnetic field. And we know magnetism isn't an illusion simply because if degaussing wasn't possible WW II probably would have went a bit differently.

And meteors must come from somewhere, I don't think clouds can defecate large rocks.
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  #608    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:48 PM).
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Okay, you know what? Please. Let's end the insanity now. We are derailing the thread. There is no point in beating a dead horse and yes, you are free to think that oranges are actually purple if you wish to. So please let's end this topic right now.
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  #609    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:49 PM).
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If you want to watch something about cosmology on Netflix I recommend Cosmos with Carl Sagan (Neil Degrasse Tyson is hosting an updated version which should be out in 1-2 years). Those Discovery/Nova programs featuring Stephen Hawking aren't really written well and aim to please with computer graphics rather than their facts. I tried watching them and their ability to convey the subject matter was poor at best. I felt bad for Mr. Hawking.

Also, the sun isn't an illusion. We feel its heat and we can draw solar power from it. The moon isn't an illusion, we feel its gravity and have what is called "tide". It can also physically block the sun's light and produce an eclipse. The northern lights aren't illusions either, they are due to collision of charged particles directed by the earths magnetic field. And we know magnetism isn't an illusion simply because if degaussing wasn't possible WW II probably would have went a bit differently.

And meteors must come from somewhere, I don't think clouds can defecate large rocks.
Alright. I might give that show a watch.

There could be different answers to why all those things happen. And if not then maybe the moon and sun rotate around the earth. And what are the northern lights then? Like physically? Am i right in thinking they dont have a physical presence? Thats what I meant when I said the moon and sun could be illusions. And I dont think magnetism is an illusion.

@Went, alright Ill quit arguing about this. We arent getting anywhere.

Just felt the need to point out that no one was at all concerned with my religious beliefs they just bashed me for not liking homosexuals and not believing in science. Isnt this club about religion?
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  #610    
Old October 14th, 2012 (01:57 PM).
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Actually Atheists are a group of people that do not believe in religion. So its the opposite. Its a thread for people that don't believe in religion. And while Atheism is is recognized as a "religious" group, there isn't much religion in the group XD

Its a politically correct group of Non-Believers who have combined with others of like minds.
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  #611    
Old October 14th, 2012 (03:15 PM).
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I may be in the minority here but I prefer this club without outside people popping in to rile us up about religion. I think Andy likes it more debate-y but I kinda wish it was a place where people questioning religion could come and discuss their feelings, that kind of thing.

Idk I'm in the minority on it but sometimes this club is SO EXHAUSTING

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  #612    
Old October 14th, 2012 (03:22 PM).
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I may be in the minority here but I prefer this club without outside people popping in to rile us up about religion. I think Andy likes it more debate-y but I kinda wish it was a place where people questioning religion could come and discuss their feelings, that kind of thing.

Idk I'm in the minority on it but sometimes this club is SO EXHAUSTING

You dont have to rage against everyone who disagrees with you.
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  #613    
Old October 14th, 2012 (03:31 PM).
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I like this thread when there aren't two long pages I have to read through to catch up.

No, I like this to be a thread for non-believers primarily. It should be a safe space for non-believers before anything else. Not that there is any shortage of places for atheists on the internet, but, ya know, it's what this place is for.

Wasn't there a club for Christians a while back? What happened with that?
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  #614    
Old October 14th, 2012 (03:46 PM).
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You dont have to rage against everyone who disagrees with you.


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I like this thread when there aren't two long pages I have to read through to catch up.

No, I like this to be a thread for non-believers primarily. It should be a safe space for non-believers before anything else. Not that there is any shortage of places for atheists on the internet, but, ya know, it's what this place is for.

Wasn't there a club for Christians a while back? What happened with that?
It died twice since I've joined. It's unfortunate, and kind of confusing because there are a lot of Christians on PC. I guess most of them just don't really want to discuss their religion with other believers? I mean, plenty come in here, enough to make their own club, but we're non-believers so it could just be a wish to debate instead of a wish to discuss their own religion, haha. I can imagine with all the different denominations it would be difficult to come together though. :(
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  #615    
Old October 14th, 2012 (04:07 PM).
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. I can imagine with all the different denominations it would be difficult to come together though.
Yeah. Even denominations as similar as baptists and methodists cant get along.
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  #616    
Old October 14th, 2012 (05:07 PM).
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You dont have to rage against everyone who disagrees with you.
Then don't barge in here and do just that.
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  #617    
Old October 14th, 2012 (05:29 PM).
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Then don't barge in here and do just that.
All I did was answer questions.
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  #618    
Old October 14th, 2012 (06:21 PM).
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And droomph how is science truth any way you look at it when even scientists disagree with each other. Different scientists believe in different theories.
I just want to take this statement you made here and clarify it for you. Science is truth when it is proven, mathematically, be it through physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Theories may be scientific, and have mathematical solutions that give a possible answer to a given situation. Theories are not proven, therefore scientists can have different theories until proven otherwise or that they are correct. For example, I might be able to say that one scientist believes string theory to be true; that everything is held together by tiny little strings, while another scientist may believe in loop quantum gravity which suggests that space is granular. These are two completely different UNPROVEN theories. Therefore, neither are true, yet neither are false, and both are in research by science.

You need to understand what is the difference between a theory, something that is yet to be true or false, and what is true. Disbelieving in science is essentially disbelieving in how the universe, or for your closed-minded approach, how the world works. I don't see why you don't grab a telescope and see with your own eyes what might lie up there in the sky, and if you have, I want to hear your explanation of what they may be. Illusions? Angels? Some of God's little creations? Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is no god, I believe in some kind of greater being, but I don't think I believe in the same God that you do.

I believe that there are far more truths that can be learned through science rather than religion. You claim that science has not been proven because we're being told it through a television on the news by some anchor. Let me ask you, how is your little bible of bizarre stories any different? You like talking, flaming bushes, men who can apparently split water in half and people who can be resurrected, for which there is no proof can be physically done. You are being told that those events happened. We are being given mathematical and scientific explanation for events that we believe occurred.

EDIT: Furthermore, if your science and math teachers aren't able to explain these things to you, I suggest moving to another school. I feel bad for your education system. Pick up the book Zero by Charles Seife. It might teach you a few things about numbers and science.
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  #619    
Old October 14th, 2012 (06:37 PM). Edited October 14th, 2012 by AChipOffTheOldBrock.
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I just want to take this statement you made here and clarify it for you. Science is truth when it is proven, mathematically, be it through physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Theories may be scientific, and have mathematical solutions that give a possible answer to a given situation. Theories are not proven, therefore scientists can have different theories until proven otherwise or that they are correct. For example, I might be able to say that one scientist believes string theory to be true; that everything is held together by tiny little strings, while another scientist may believe in loop quantum gravity which suggests that space is granular. These are two completely different UNPROVEN theories. Therefore, neither are true, yet neither are false, and both are in research by science.

You need to understand what is the difference between a theory, something that is yet to be true or false, and what is true. Disbelieving in science is essentially disbelieving in how the universe, or for your closed-minded approach, how the world works. I don't see why you don't grab a telescope and see with your own eyes what might lie up there in the sky, and if you have, I want to hear your explanation of what they may be. Illusions? Angels? Some of God's little creations? Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is no god, I believe in some kind of greater being, but I don't think I believe in the same God that you do.

I believe that there are far more truths that can be learned through science rather than religion. You claim that science has not been proven because we're being told it through a television on the news by some anchor. Let me ask you, how is your little bible of bizarre stories any different? You like talking, flaming bushes, men who can apparently split water in half and people who can be resurrected, for which there is no proof can be physically done. You are being told that those events happened. We are being given mathematical and scientific explanation for events that we believe occurred.

EDIT: Furthermore, if your science and math teachers aren't able to explain these things to you, I suggest moving to another school. I feel bad for your education system. Pick up the book Zero by Charles Seife. It might teach you a few things about numbers and science.
Thank you for explaining theories for me.

Ive already answered a lot of these questions and Went said not to argue about it anymore.

For the last time, its not that I dont believe in all science and space just some aspects of it. I dont believe in everything the Bible says, I do think there is some truth in it though.
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  #620    
Old October 14th, 2012 (08:12 PM). Edited October 14th, 2012 by Phantom.
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I like this thread when there aren't two long pages I have to read through to catch up.

This.

I just really feel the need to pop up and say about the whole "atheists can't understand religion" thing. Like Toujours, I was Catholic, and I went to Catholic school for 13 years, and was even an altar server. I came to the realization that I was agnostic during my Confirmation classes, then atheist after a few years of researching and learning of other belief systems.

As for atheists not understanding religion... I took theology/philosophy as minors in college. Yet, here I am an atheist.

There are actually studies done that the average atheist knows more about religion that the believers do.

I took the test, got a 30/30.
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  #621    
Old October 14th, 2012 (09:02 PM). Edited October 14th, 2012 by Sodom.
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Ugh really guys, again? Twice in two days we've had to bring H-staff in to clean up the mess. Get it together, Tyrone.

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Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock
Just felt the need to point out that no one was at all concerned with my religious beliefs they just bashed me for not liking homosexuals
Nobody 'bashed' you for this. I called you out on a hatred that you admitted was baseless. I wasn't bashing you for not liking homosexuals, I was simply pointing out that it's silly to hate something without a reason. Which, by the way, it is.

Quote:
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I think Andy likes it more debate-y but I kinda wish it was a place where people questioning religion could come and discuss their feelings, that kind of thing.
Not true. When the club began it was intended just as you described... but the Other Clubs rules state that you're not allowed to prevent anybody from joining a group, which is tricky in the case of an Atheist club. I've always welcomed religious people to come in and discuss with us because the inclusive nature of the clubs forum says I have to. I welcome discussion but I don't like it being debatey; it just inevitably becomes that way and once the spiral starts there's little I can do to stop it.

Again, I welcome the religious people to come here and talk with us, but I disagree with the way that it's often done... with an "I've come to put you in your place" attitude. As though it's a matter of Holy duty and public service.

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Wasn't there a club for Christians a while back? What happened with that?
It's currently in the great clubs heaven in the sky. It died out of lack of interest.
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  #622    
Old October 15th, 2012 (09:32 AM).
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Soooo........let's start up a new discussion. What are your takes on events depicted in the bible, for instance the Great Flood or When God Rained Down Fire on the Egyptians? Do you think they are made up or are actually real events that happened but people attributed a "divine" intervention sort of thing to it?

Also, for the kooks like me who dig the Ancient Aliens theory, do you think that the ark might have been an alien artifact?
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  #623    
Old October 15th, 2012 (10:18 AM).
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I believe there have been big floods in the past - there is evidence of them in the geology and seabeds and so on - but floods, even big ones, are things we know happen so it's easy to believe in them. Rain of fire? I'm willing to believe that someone saw a volcano somewhere and the story of it got passed around and so the idea of fiery rain could easily have been embellished and attributed to something more.

But I'm not one to use the bible(s) as historical documents. Not that I'm against religious texts being used as documents, but the bible-as-published-today has been through too many rewrites and translations to be of much use. Even when you get back to the source you ought to back it up the anecdotal evidence with other records and, hopefully, some physical evidence.
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  #624    
Old October 15th, 2012 (01:26 PM).
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We have a literal deluge of evidence now (Sorry I couldn't help myself) that shows that a large flood did indeed hit the Mediterranean area around 8000 years ago. Funny.

You will notice around the Black Sea large clusters of cities and population centers that were last above water around 8000 B.C. The same is true in the oral traditions of many indigenous Native American tribes around the Great Lakes region in the U.S. and Canada. Notice how these stories originate from a time when the glaciers were receding and melting, those millions and million of gallons of water have to go somewhere.

People need to remember that the bible relies heavily on metaphor, simile and recycled symbolic imagery. The biblical flood myth is simply based off of an older Babylonian flood myth - The Epic of Gilgamesh. Which in all likelihood was based in part off of a real flood. But it was just that, a flood, not a divine act, but simply a misunderstood geologic process, like so many other instances like this.
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Old October 15th, 2012 (01:32 PM).
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Snowdrop
Throw a blanket over it!
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Fishbowl Space
Gender: Female
Nature: Jolly
What's goin' awwwnnn! I haven't been here in a while!

I have absolutely no idea about the floods in the Bible except that I once watched a show that showed the tides of the sea falling and exposing the ground underneath during a certain season or something, which I guess was supposed to explain Moses parting the tides but I don't remember much.
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