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  #1    
Old October 15th, 2012, 10:46 AM
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Vaccines are only effective at stopping epidemics if most of the population has been vaccinated. For reasons of public health should everyone be vaccinated, or does this infringe on their choices?

If you're not too familiar with this topic, lots of people are given the MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine as kids before we enter school (which is kind of a breeding ground for germs and disease) and so develop an immunity to these diseases, keeping them safe and making it harder to spread the disease to those people who aren't vaccinated. There are also sexually transmitted diseases, such as HPV (human papilloma virus) which cause a number of different cancers, that have vaccines, although this and other vaccines are not as widespread as the MMR vaccine. Typically you get one or a few doses of the vaccine and only a few people show side effects, most of which are minor. Vaccines are widely known to be the reason we no longer worry about polio of smallpox.

If you want to bring up the autism rumors, religious objections, conspiracy theories, whether you're vaccinated, or whatever else, go ahead.

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  #2    
Old October 15th, 2012, 11:06 AM
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Growing up my parents were kinda hippies about this kind of thing and I never got most of the major vaccinations. I know that'll probably screw me majorly some day, lol, but I've noticed I actually get sick way less than anyone else I know. I can't even remember the last time I had so much as a cold. :P

Isn't it true that you have to be immunized in order to attend public school? And the law requires you attend (unless you were homeschooled like I was), so in a way they're sorta legally required. o.O

I feel so uneducated about this haha. I sound like a buffoon.
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  #3    
Old October 15th, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Was this inspired by the brand new study released that charted the sexual behaviors of young women that got the HPV vaccine and determined the vaccine had no effect on them?

And yeah certain immunizations are required for schools, even college nowadays. I know my mother had to go get a newer immunization when she went back to school, because it wasn't a requirement when she was a kid and now it is.
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  #4    
Old October 15th, 2012, 11:17 AM
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I don't know about the public school like grade school (don't have kids, don't know anyone with kids that age, was too young to know when I was that age) but when I went to college and lived in the dorms I had to be vaccinated against meningitis. Well, actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure if it was a requirement or a very strong suggestion.

Guess I'm also uneducated about this stuff.

Edit: @Toujours. Maaaaybe.

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Last edited by Esper; October 15th, 2012 at 11:19 AM. Reason: maybe
  #5    
Old October 15th, 2012, 12:14 PM
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Not getting vaccines is laughable and largely stupid. Say you're headed off to college. You need to get the meningitis vaccine if you're living in the dorms. If you decide to not get vaccinated, and you get Bacterial Meningitis, then well, sucks to be you. If you don't get the proper vaccinations you can pose a threat to not only your own health, but the health of others.

The laws saying you have to be vaccinated are largely a product of an older time when these diseases could run rampant through urban population centers. Look at what Polio did in the 1930's-50's.
  #6    
Old October 15th, 2012, 12:32 PM
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I think it should they should be provided for free but it should still be a choice. And yeah Ausaudrial, at least in America you have to be vaccinated to attend public school. I remember going into middle school we had to get certain vaccinations to be allowed to attend.
  #7    
Old October 15th, 2012, 05:39 PM
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Our Constitution, and the principles that it was founded upon, always put the rights of the individual over the collective. I believe that mandatory vaccination is not only unconstitutional, but is also morally wrong because it violates a person's individual sovereignty.
  #8    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
Our Constitution, and the principles that it was founded upon, always put the rights of the individual over the collective. I believe that mandatory vaccination is not only unconstitutional, but is also morally wrong because it violates a person's individual sovereignty.
Keeping somebody from contracting a potentially fatal disease isn't morally wrong.
  #9    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
Keeping somebody from contracting a potentially fatal disease isn't morally wrong.
Forcefully medicating someone is morally wrong, especially these new laws they are passing that allow minors to get vaccines without their parents. Since vaccines have more deadly side effects, it is foolish to believe that a minor can make an informed decision as to the safety of accepting the vaccine. Heck, adults in consultation with their doctors aren't even completely safe!
  #10    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
Forcefully medicating someone is morally wrong, especially these new laws they are passing that allow minors to get vaccines without their parents. Since vaccines have more deadly side effects, it is foolish to believe that a minor can make an informed decision as to the safety of accepting the vaccine. Heck, adults in consultation with their doctors aren't even completely safe!
Well nothing is completely safe. And I think its fine to let a child get a vaccination without their parents but they should have a choice.
  #11    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:40 PM
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I swear, some people would just totally disband the government and condone total anarchy if they could.

Considering vaccines prevent mass outbreaks of deadly diseases, I think that far outweighs the possible side effects. It's the government's job to protect its citizens - if people don't get vaccinated, then not only do they put themselves at risk, but also those around them who don't have the vaccine. Since vaccinations have become routine, we've totally eradicated smallpox, and other diseases such as polio are practically unheard of nowadays. Requiring those shots prevents practically the entire populace from contracting those deadly diseases.

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  #12    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:50 PM
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I swear, some people would just totally disband the government and condone total anarchy if they could.

Considering vaccines prevent mass outbreaks of deadly diseases, I think that far outweighs the possible side effects. It's the government's job to protect its citizens - if people don't get vaccinated, then not only do they put themselves at risk, but also those around them who don't have the vaccine. Since vaccinations have become routine, we've totally eradicated smallpox, and other diseases such as polio are practically unheard of nowadays. Requiring those shots prevents practically the entire populace from contracting those deadly diseases.
There are a lot of people who say they would be glad to totally disband the government and condone anarchy. Im a libertarian personally. Its the only reasonable party to belong to. And as such Im against forcing people to get vaccinated, if only by principle. Im sure almost everyone would still be more than happy to get vaccines for polio and other diseases.
  #13    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
Forcefully medicating someone is morally wrong, especially these new laws they are passing that allow minors to get vaccines without their parents. Since vaccines have more deadly side effects, it is foolish to believe that a minor can make an informed decision as to the safety of accepting the vaccine. Heck, adults in consultation with their doctors aren't even completely safe!
A routine vaccination for polio, small pox, pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, etc, is not morally wrong, it's a standard of basic health that every single industrialized country does to ensure public health. Do you know what Polio did to this country in the early 30's-50's? Whooping Cough? This misguided, selfish notion that "I'm an individual, I can do what I want" line of individual freedom here < public health, and it means you are endangering not only yourself, but your potential children and other people. Most people wouldn't even consider jeopardizing the health of millions because the evil big bad government can tell you what to do.

And what vaccines have 'deadly side effects', exactly? I bet it's only the HPV one.
  #14    
Old October 15th, 2012, 06:59 PM
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I hardly think one person not wanting a shot just to say "eff the system" is more important than ensuring the health of the public (all 311 million of us in the US). There are some cases where the safety and well-being of humanity in general outweigh the rights of the individual, sorry to tell you.

By your thoughts, I should have the right to do whatever I choose, just because I should do whatever I want without government interference.

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  #15    
Old October 15th, 2012, 07:11 PM
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Vaccines work because of herd immunity. When we start allowing people under any circumstances not to get a vaccine, then we compromise that herd immunity and the vaccines are ineffective.

I got the HPV vaccine and I'm not dead! Yayyy!
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  #16    
Old October 15th, 2012, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
A routine vaccination for polio, small pox, pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, etc, is not morally wrong, it's a standard of basic health that every single industrialized country does to ensure public health. Do you know what Polio did to this country in the early 30's-50's? Whooping Cough? This misguided, selfish notion that "I'm an individual, I can do what I want" line of individual freedom here < public health, and it means you are endangering not only yourself, but your potential children and other people. Most people wouldn't even consider jeopardizing the health of millions because the evil big bad government can tell you what to do.

And what vaccines have 'deadly side effects', exactly? I bet it's only the HPV one.
The HPV vaccine is extremely dangerous, and has a long history of death and destruction.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morkula View Post
I hardly think one person not wanting a shot just to say "eff the system" is more important than ensuring the health of the public (all 311 million of us in the US). There are some cases where the safety and well-being of humanity in general outweigh the rights of the individual, sorry to tell you.

By your thoughts, I should have the right to do whatever I choose, just because I should do whatever I want without government interference.
This is just a philosophical disagreement between us. You believe that the rights of the collective should trump the rights of the individual. I believe the opposite.
  #17    
Old October 15th, 2012, 09:22 PM
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I think the Chicken Pox vaccine was a stupid idea. Why immunize kids from a disease they'd only get once, and wouldn't die from? (It's like one in 10 million, or am I overstating?) Let their immune systems grow by fighting an actual disease.

It's also dangerous to use some vaccines, as they have high risk of actually infecting somebody. I think it should be someone's choice on most of them - but some need to be required. We need to prevent these things from killing us. Let us hope they can eventually do this for cancer...
  #18    
Old October 15th, 2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LividZephyr View Post
I think the Chicken Pox vaccine was a stupid idea. Why immunize kids from a disease they'd only get once, and wouldn't die from? (It's like one in 10 million, or am I overstating?) Let their immune systems grow by fighting an actual disease.

It's also dangerous to use some vaccines, as they have high risk of actually infecting somebody. I think it should be someone's choice on most of them - but some need to be required. We need to prevent these things from killing us. Let us hope they can eventually do this for cancer...
This is because the body develops antibodies to prevent subsequent symptoms of these diseases. Vaccines work the same way, except the pathogen is dead or inactive, so that the body can develop antibodies without first having experienced the symptoms of infection.
  #19    
Old October 15th, 2012, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LividZephyr View Post
I think the Chicken Pox vaccine was a stupid idea. Why immunize kids from a disease they'd only get once, and wouldn't die from? (It's like one in 10 million, or am I overstating?) Let their immune systems grow by fighting an actual disease.

It's also dangerous to use some vaccines, as they have high risk of actually infecting somebody. I think it should be someone's choice on most of them - but some need to be required. We need to prevent these things from killing us. Let us hope they can eventually do this for cancer...
I don't think they'll do it for cancer. Too much money in that industry. Hopefully I'm just cynical

And I had the chicken pox vaccine. :p It never really went around at my school. So, as I approached the end of my elementary schools years, I was vaccinated because the older you are when it hits you the worse it is. So, why would I want that or why would my parents want that for me?
  #20    
Old October 16th, 2012, 03:28 AM
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By your thoughts, I should have the right to do whatever I choose, just because I should do whatever I want without government interference.
In a perfect world you would be able to live life however you chose without government interference.
  #21    
Old October 16th, 2012, 05:53 AM
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In a perfect world you would be able to live life however you chose without government interference.
And then everyone dies for not wearing a seatbelt

Last edited by TRIFORCE89; October 16th, 2012 at 06:20 AM.
  #22    
Old October 16th, 2012, 06:37 AM
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In a perfect world you would be able to live life however you chose without government interference.
Put it this way. In a world where everyone at a school is required to be immunized against polio, polio cannot find a foothold. No one is getting it. Even in a school where only 5 people aren't immunized, if one of those people fall ill with polio, no one else is getting it because it can't pass from person to person to get to everyone in the school. But in a school where 60% of the population isn't immunized, one person coming into contact with polio and contracting it becomes an epidemic. Then you are not only putting people at risk that don't have the immunization, but the people they come into contact with, such as very young children that have not begun or completed their vaccination series yet.

When you are in close quarters with hundreds of other people every day, the idea of allowing everyone to immunize as they please hurts much more than the person choosing not to immunize. If you and 20 other people end up not immunizing, and you contract polio and they all get it from you, your choice not to immunize is the choice that gave them polio.
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  #23    
Old October 16th, 2012, 07:07 AM
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Think about this for a minute, do you really want to be that one person who dosent get vaccinated and contracts a horrible disease? I really think that getting an illness like Polio would be pretty devestating, as it was for many people before the vaccine existed. You may not agree with laws that make people do things, but sometimes, people do need to be protected from themselves. Sometimes, given the choice, people dont exactly make smart choices.The vaccines we are given protect people, not just you, but everyone. Do you want to give a person an awful disease? I personally wouldnt, so yes, I'll take the vaccines if it keeps me healthy even though I dont like getting shots. We dont want any more outbreaks of these diseases.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LividZephyr View Post
I think the Chicken Pox vaccine was a stupid idea. Why immunize kids from a disease they'd only get once, and wouldn't die from? (It's like one in 10 million, or am I overstating?) Let their immune systems grow by fighting an actual disease.

But you don't just get it once. The same pathogen that causes Chicken Pox, Herpes zoster causes shingles, a painful skin rash that hits primarily elderly patients who had chicken pox in their youth. These are reasons why we vaccinate.

  #25    
Old October 16th, 2012, 08:59 AM
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Think about this for a minute, do you really want to be that one person who dosent get vaccinated and contracts a horrible disease? I really think that getting an illness like Polio would be pretty devestating, as it was for many people before the vaccine existed. You may not agree with laws that make people do things, but sometimes, people do need to be protected from themselves. Sometimes, given the choice, people dont exactly make smart choices.The vaccines we are given protect people, not just you, but everyone. Do you want to give a person an awful disease? I personally wouldnt, so yes, I'll take the vaccines if it keeps me healthy even though I dont like getting shots. We dont want any more outbreaks of these diseases.
The thing is that people don't understand logically the risks if any significant portion of the population did what they plan on doing. Because as of now, if someone is homeschooled and doesn't get a vaccine, they're still pretty protected from the diseases that we vaccinate for. Why? Herd immunity. Everyone around them is vaccinated, so they have no chance to be exposed to the disease since no one around them ever has it, so they're safe. So to people that want vaccinations to be 100% optional no matter what, they see themselves as safe because "these diseases aren't a thing anymore".

What they don't understand is the logical sequence that if 30% of the population chooses to not get vaccinated for a deadly, contagious disease, and then someone gets it, they're far more likely to get it. And then we're suddenly a barbaric country where we have vaccines for basic diseases but somehow still get epidemics of them regularly.

The people that made the immunization requirements the way they are made them with the knowledge of the danger behind these diseases.
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