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  #26    
Old November 13th, 2012, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
You realize you're quoting a movie, right? Our founding fathers rebelled against a tyrannical monarchy. These people are rebelling because a black man is still president, elected by the very spirit our founding fathers risked their lives for. There can be no rational comparison between the two here. These people aren't patriotic or brave, they're racist.
Not saying that this secession thing isn't dumb, but I do know several people who seriously consider the government to be tyrannical and vastly overreaching, almost like the Crown of the day of the Founders. Sure there are some doing it based on the race card, but I think most people genuinely believe the country has become something that they perceive as a threat and care just as passionately about being an American as you probably do.
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  #27    
Old November 13th, 2012, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stand Alone View Post
Not saying that this secession thing isn't dumb, but I do know several people who seriously consider the government to be tyrannical and vastly overreaching, almost like the Crown of the day of the Founders. Sure there are some doing it based on the race card, but I think most people genuinely believe the country has become something that they perceive as a threat and care just as passionately about being an American as you probably do.
'Thinking' the Government is tyrannical because of the rhetoric floating around and it actually being so are two very different things. It's based around a poor grasp of Colonial History.
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  #28    
Old November 13th, 2012, 08:15 AM
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A poor grasp of history does not a racist make though.
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  #29    
Old November 13th, 2012, 08:24 AM
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Not saying I disagree there either, but in this age of everyone being right, and everyone else being wrong, it is very hard to tell which is truth. People perceive based on very tangible actions of the government that it is one of tyranny as well, such as the NDAA provisions. The actual belief that it will be used on a regular basis to ensure power dominance and whatnot is vastly skewed, but the fact remains that it could very well happen. Things like that are what the people I'm talking about believe. I agree that a lot of stuff out there is hogwash, but when it boils down to it, a lot of things DO happen that based on one's beliefs could be perceived as wrong and worth fighting.

I'd go back to the Founders here as well: I'm sure many people were perfectly okay with the British government at the time, particularly non-Colonials. While there was more tangibility and fact supporting what we believe to be "wrong" happening at the time, such as those unfair taxes, the quartering, the outright oppression we believe today, it doesn't mean that there wasn't also rhetoric at the time as well feeding the movement. It's human nature to exaggerate things and it's also perception based.
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  #30    
Old November 13th, 2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
You realize you're quoting a movie, right? Our founding fathers rebelled against a tyrannical monarchy. These people are rebelling because a black man is still president, elected by the very spirit our founding fathers risked their lives for. There can be no rational comparison between the two here. These people aren't patriotic or brave, they're racist.
And you accused me of making wild accusations, Live?

There are plenty of reasons to secede from this increasingly tyrannical nation, lead by an unelected President!
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  #31    
Old November 13th, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
And you accused me of making wild accusations, Live?

There are plenty of reasons to secede from this increasingly tyrannical nation, lead by an unelected President!
Okay, I'm really wondering, Freaky. Please tell us how Barack Obama is an unelected President. Like him or not, he was fairly elected by the majority of voters - he won both the popular vote and the electoral vote by a fair margin in both elections, despite Republicans doing their damnedest to make voting difficult. How do you figure that he wasn't elected? I voted last week and didn't see any people having guns held to their heads being told to vote for Obama.
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  #32    
Old November 13th, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
And you accused me of making wild accusations, Live?

There are plenty of reasons to secede from this increasingly tyrannical nation, lead by an unelected President!
Everything in that post was factual. Then again, you're known for ignoring facts, so.

And regardless, the states can't secede from the union anyways. That was a specific mandate written into the constitution of every single Confederate State during Reconstruction, upon re-admission to the Union. So no only are they racists, they're completely ignorant of the laws of their own states. Not a good combination - then again, these are the same people who named a political movement after a sex act.
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  #33    
Old November 13th, 2012, 10:46 AM
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The fact that you don't like a President doesn't make it illegitimate as long as he was elected by rules and procedures. No taxation without representation- and you sure had the choice to vote for your representatives last week. Didn't like majority choice? Well, you can try to assemble a better group of players for next time or go and say that playing basketball is boring and you didn't want to anyway and that you'd rather play with your friends only because the rival team was certainly cheating and the umpires were helping them and they didn't really win and and and, but only one choice is truly serious anyway.

In other words, if you don't like the way the country is going, push for the opposite ideas. They lost soundly 7 days ago, but maybe they won't in four years. But saying "it's unfair and it doesn't count since I lost" is not the way to go. Anywhere.

After all, if the US survived a ""tyrannical unelected president"" called George W Bush not so long ago, it can't really get much worse now. This one at least won two elections.
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  #34    
Old November 13th, 2012, 11:01 AM
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Okay, I'm really wondering, Freaky. Please tell us how Barack Obama is an unelected President. Like him or not, he was fairly elected by the majority of voters - he won both the popular vote and the electoral vote by a fair margin in both elections, despite Republicans doing their damnedest to make voting difficult. How do you figure that he wasn't elected? I voted last week and didn't see any people having guns held to their heads being told to vote for Obama.
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Everything in that post was factual. Then again, you're known for ignoring facts, so.

And regardless, the states can't secede from the union anyways. That was a specific mandate written into the constitution of every single Confederate State during Reconstruction, upon re-admission to the Union. So no only are they racists, they're completely ignorant of the laws of their own states. Not a good combination - then again, these are the same people who named a political movement after a sex act.
I'll continue to call him unelected until the issues of voting machines converting Romney votes into Obama votes, why workers for an Obama-supporting union were the ones who were hired to service the shady voting machines, how counties in key swing states that Obama carried had more votes cast than there are registered voters, etc. are addressed.

You can call my accusations outrageous if you'd like. They're no more outrageous than Live's unfounded accusations of racism, though.

Last edited by FreakyLocz14; November 13th, 2012 at 11:39 AM.
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  #35    
Old November 13th, 2012, 11:29 AM
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I don't see anything wrong with the idea of a country splitting into smaller countries, even the US, but not over something silly like an election that was pretty fair in the overall scheme of things. The US is not Yugoslavia or Sudan. We're not in armed conflict with different parts of the country and torn by bitten ethnic tension (well, maybe we are a little, but it's not that bad). This is just a knee-jerk reaction to an election loss. It's "I'm moving to Canada 2.0."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
I'll continue to call him unelected until the issues of voting machines converting Romney votes into Obama votes, why workers for an Obama-supporting union were the ones who were hired to service the shady voting machines, how counties in key swing states that Obama carried had more votes cast than there are registered voters, etc.

You can call my accusations outrageous if you'd like. They're no more outrageous than Live's unfounded accusations of racism, though.
Where are you getting these accusations from?
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  #36    
Old November 13th, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
I'll continue to call him unelected until the issues of voting machines converting Romney votes into Obama votes, why workers for an Obama-supporting union were the ones who were hired to service the shady voting machines, how counties in key swing states that Obama carried had more votes cast than there are registered voters, etc. are addressed.

You can call my accusations outrageous if you'd like. They're no more outrageous than Live's unfounded accusations of racism, though.
Where is your proof of these things? Do you have any proof that this actually happened? I dont know where you're getting this from but Im not really inclined to believe you without actual evidence or proof that it happened.
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  #37    
Old November 13th, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
I'll continue to call him unelected until the issues of voting machines converting Romney votes into Obama votes, why workers for an Obama-supporting union were the ones who were hired to service the shady voting machines, how counties in key swing states that Obama carried had more votes cast than there are registered voters, etc. are addressed.

You can call my accusations outrageous if you'd like. They're no more outrageous than Live's unfounded accusations of racism, though.
You are also forgetting how Romney was invested heavily in companies that made some of the voting machines, and his intentionally training poll watchers with incorrect information about just who can and can't vote.

Both sides need investigating, not just Obama. The only reason your not saying both sides need investigating is because you don't give a **** about honesty, you just don't want a Democrat as the President.

Edit - I read a story about the messed up voting machines selecting Obama when Romney was pressed, but I've also read one the opposite. In both cases, this was either because the person was pressing too hard on the screen or because the touchscreen wasn't calibrated right.
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  #38    
Old November 13th, 2012, 12:24 PM
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Well this has went from a discussion to a debate :D. I pick the side of Obama though, why? Because he is the lesser of two evils, and to be honest I don't like either party.

The states suceding is very funny to me, 19/20 I'm very sure will fail if they get out. Additionally I disagree that race really factors into it, yes there are racist people, but do you think they would really have the knowledge to know they can sucede? In the famous words of some yahoo commenter, I wish I could sucede from the human race (:D)

In other words, Texas has received 65k sigs, meaning that the Obama administration must waste their time looking this crap over, way to waste the goverment's time further.
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  #39    
Old November 13th, 2012, 12:44 PM
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In other words, Texas has received 65k sigs, meaning that the Obama administration must waste their time looking this crap over, way to waste the goverment's time further.
I say let em go, induct Puerto Rico as the new 50th state, watch Mexico try to annex Texas, start a new short war, end up giving part of Texas to Mexico and then have whats left of Texas take Puerto Rico's place as a US Territory.
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  #40    
Old November 13th, 2012, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
You realize you're quoting a movie, right? Our founding fathers rebelled against a tyrannical monarchy. These people are rebelling because a black man is still president, elected by the very spirit our founding fathers risked their lives for. There can be no rational comparison between the two here. These people aren't patriotic or brave, they're racist.
that is an assumption, they are not. They are doing it because they are tired of the government...

These states wont be allowed to leave the union.
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  #41    
Old November 13th, 2012, 12:50 PM
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I say let em go, induct Puerto Rico as the new 50th state, watch Mexico try to annex Texas, start a new short war, end up giving part of Texas to Mexico and then have whats left of Texas take Puerto Rico's place as a US Territory.
That is a terrible idea, I'd rather drop Jersey than Texas... Like the article says Texas is a big economic factor for us and just giving it up is hardly a decent option.
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  #42    
Old November 13th, 2012, 12:52 PM
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that is an assumption, they are not. They are doing it because they are tired of the government...
A week after the 2012 election. Which Obama and the Democrats won handily. So yes, they are.

And people, for the millionth time, the states can't secede anyways on account of their Constitutions and the terms upon which they were re admitted to the Union during Reconstruction. This means that no matter how many signatures it gets, it's null and void - has been since 1870.
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  #43    
Old November 13th, 2012, 01:01 PM
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A week after the 2012 election. Which Obama and the Democrats won handily. So yes, they are.

And people, for the millionth time, the states can't secede anyways on account of their Constitutions and the terms upon which they were re admitted to the Union during Reconstruction. This means that no matter how many signatures it gets, it's null and void - has been since 1870.
It's still funny that these people are wasting their own time, reporters' time, the governments' time, and most importantly space that could go to more deserving souls.

Here is a question, why do you think the other political side is idiotic, corrupt, irrelevant, or tyrannical (I still have all of my freedoms from before, as a matter of fact this is probably the best state this world has been in ever. As in the history of human life. As in before this, uh century? Or 50 years, you decide.)
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  #44    
Old November 13th, 2012, 02:16 PM
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A week after the 2012 election. Which Obama and the Democrats won handily. So yes, they are.

And people, for the millionth time, the states can't secede anyways on account of their Constitutions and the terms upon which they were re admitted to the Union during Reconstruction. This means that no matter how many signatures it gets, it's null and void - has been since 1870.
Well, correction - they can't peacefully secede. ;) Which of course is what they're asking for, but secession isn't an impossibility if something completely out of the blue happened and one decided to secede, since they wouldn't be respect their Constitution as part of the US anymore. Although chances are the US military would overwhelm them and they would be brought back into the fold within a year.

Edit: I was trying to source the "states can't secede because of Constitutions" and looked through Florida's and Texas' Constitutions, searching for specifically 'sece'(de, ssion) and couldn't find anything. Is it worded differently without using that, or only in some states, or...?
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  #45    
Old November 13th, 2012, 07:28 PM
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I'm somewhat conflicted about the whole thing.

On the one hand, I consider myself a patriot. I believe in the constitution, federalism, and the character of the American people.

On the other hand, I seriously do not like the direction the country is taking. I think the character of the nation is still strong, but it's getting weaker. Both parties are reckless when it comes to financial matters, people care more about handouts and less about self-reliance, people want to silence offensive expression instead of protecting it, and don't get me started about attacks on the free exercise of religion.

It's unwise for any of the 50 states to seriously consider secession right now. However, I will not say that the day won't come within the next few decades when it would be wise. The U.S. government is not America, the American people are. If it comes to pass that the U.S. government becomes truly and irrevocably detrimental to freedom and justice, I believe it will be the duty of American patriots to seek its dissolution. If this must happen on the state level, so be it.

Now before you crucify me, let me also say that the Civil War was the single biggest mistake in American history, and it absolutely must not happen again. In order for secession to be morally justifiable, it must happen peacefully. Also, only those states who could support themselves as a country (Texas and California come to mind; others would be forced to collaborate) should bother in the first place (remember this is all hypothetical, none should try it now). In other words, even if secession ever becomes morally justifiable, it will remain mostly unfeasible and unlikely.

So no, I'm not in favor of the petitions, but I do sympathize with the general idea. I'm a patriot to the American people and the American ideal. If the U.S. government becomes an enemy to either of those, then I will be its enemy.

(And as for the recent election, I voted against the president, but I settled on my feelings about secession during the Bush years.)
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  #46    
Old November 13th, 2012, 08:08 PM
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This is actually a thing? This is actually a threat in the 21st century? Am I stuck in Gone With the Wind right now? Am I Scarlett O'Hara? I thought, as Live said, it would be impossible for said states to secede anyway due to some Constitutional law imposed upon the states when they were readmitted into America after the first time they seceded. I'm not American, so tell me if I'm ignorant in my question, but what would be the point of seceding? I'm just surprised that this is even on the table.

Long live the Confederacy, I suppose.
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  #47    
Old November 13th, 2012, 09:04 PM
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Can the people who support this within these respective states form a country on their own and leave us? I think that'd be in the best interest for everyone to keep these people separate from our progressive, forward thinking society.
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  #48    
Old November 13th, 2012, 09:10 PM
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Can the people who support this within these respective states form a country on their own and leave us? I think that'd be in the best interest for everyone to keep these people separate from our progressive, forward thinking society.
Yeah, get rid of them. I don't like these people signing the petition making it seem like they're speaking for the whole state. Because um, just so y'all know, not all of us in Alabama want to secede. Or Texas. Or Florida. Or New York. If you have a problem living here, then hell. Don't live here! Don't make the rest of us in the state suffer if this does go through. Cause if it does, I'll sure as hell be the first out the door.

Though I don't think it'll happen, for reasons already said. On the strange off chance though, u kno, I'mma be over in Europe.
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  #49    
Old November 13th, 2012, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Livewire View Post
A week after the 2012 election. Which Obama and the Democrats won handily. So yes, they are.

And people, for the millionth time, the states can't secede anyways on account of their Constitutions and the terms upon which they were re admitted to the Union during Reconstruction. This means that no matter how many signatures it gets, it's null and void - has been since 1870.
Live, this has nothing racism, the President, or his party. The same thing would be happening had Romney and the GOP has a resounding victory

You're also only partially correct. The only states that are formally prohibited from seceding are the ones that have done so before.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
Live, this has nothing racism, the President, or his party. The same thing would be happening had Romney and the GOP has a resounding victory

You're also only partially correct. The only states that are formally prohibited from seceding are the ones that have done so before.
You must be joking. This wouldn't be an issue if Romney were the President. That's laughable to suggest.

And no, I was speaking about the states from the old Confederacy, specifically Texas, seeing as I mentioned Reconstruction.
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