[Discussion] Vaccines

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Toujours

Put it this way. In a world where everyone at a school is required to be immunized against polio, polio cannot find a foothold. No one is getting it. Even in a school where only 5 people aren't immunized, if one of those people fall ill with polio, no one else is getting it because it can't pass from person to person to get to everyone in the school. But in a school where 60% of the population isn't immunized, one person coming into contact with polio and contracting it becomes an epidemic. Then you are not only putting people at risk that don't have the immunization, but the people they come into contact with, such as very young children that have not begun or completed their vaccination series yet.

When you are in close quarters with hundreds of other people every day, the idea of allowing everyone to immunize as they please hurts much more than the person choosing not to immunize. If you and 20 other people end up not immunizing, and you contract polio and they all get it from you, your choice not to immunize is the choice that gave them polio.

If only the people who dont get immunized get the disease then theres no problem. If you dont want to get polio you just get your polio shot. You should be allowed to contract polio if you want to. Its a matter of principle.

[Livewire]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

You should be allowed to contract polio if you want to.

...


This is literally the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You should be allowed to contract a potentially deadly disease that could not only kill you, maim you, etc, but infect and potentially kill or stricken a family member or a friend? That's lunacy.

[joshbl56]

Originally Posted by Livewire

...


This is literally the stupidest thing I have ever heard. You should be allowed to contract a potentially deadly disease that could not only kill you, maim you, etc, but infect and potentially kill or stricken a family member or a friend? That's lunacy.

I don't think he meant it literally but instead is pointing out that people who do not get these vaccines are kind of making that choice themselves (quick note, I haven't really read any other post right now except the last few).

As for the vaccines themselves, I would rather have a group of people be forced to get a vaccine for something like polio than see them all die because of it. While I usually go for the 'people have the right to choose' choice, I would rather choose the 'Make sure everyone lives' kind of choice. I would go with this choice specifically for children. Children who die because their parents didn't get them vaccinated is probably one of the worst things to find out about.

[Wobbachomp]

Originally Posted by LividZephyr

I think the Chicken Pox vaccine was a stupid idea. Why immunize kids from a disease they'd only get once, and wouldn't die from? (It's like one in 10 million, or am I overstating?) Let their immune systems grow by fighting an actual disease.

It's also dangerous to use some vaccines, as they have high risk of actually infecting somebody. I think it should be someone's choice on most of them - but some need to be required. We need to prevent these things from killing us. Let us hope they can eventually do this for cancer...

I didn't even know there was a Chicken Pox vaccine... That is a really stupid idea.

[Kura]

I'd want vaccinations to be optional. I know someone (young and healthy) who has been left paralyzed from the neck down because they took a shot to prevent against hepatitis before going on vacation to a resort country (forget which one.. mexico, dominican republic, etc) because of the rare side effects.. but yeah.. :/ I dunno.. I'm pretty wary.

[TRIFORCE89]

Originally Posted by Wobbachomp

I didn't even know there was a Chicken Pox vaccine... That is a really stupid idea. >_>

Why? I was vaccinated against it.

I went a good long time without getting Chickenpox. As such, I was eventually vaccinated because if you "miss it", then you contract a more sever variation later in adulthood. Why would I want that?

I know some people do like "Chickenpox parties" and expose their kids to it early. But, at my school if someone got it... nobody really knew. I'm sure people at school had it, but no one mentioned it XD

Further, if you get it as a kid, you're susceptible to shingles as an adult. So, that's another lovely thing I get to skip. So, :p

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by joshbl56

I don't think he meant it literally but instead is pointing out that people who do not get these vaccines are kind of making that choice themselves (quick note, I haven't really read any other post right now except the last few).

As for the vaccines themselves, I would rather have a group of people be forced to get a vaccine for something like polio than see them all die because of it. While I usually go for the 'people have the right to choose' choice, I would rather choose the 'Make sure everyone lives' kind of choice. I would go with this choice specifically for children. Children who die because their parents didn't get them vaccinated is probably one of the worst things to find out about.

Yeah thats what Im saying. If your stupid enough to turn down a polio vaccine then you deserve to get polio. Its just a matter of freedom of choice IMO.

[TRIFORCE89]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

Yeah thats what Im saying. If your stupid enough to turn down a polio vaccine then you deserve to get polio. Its just a matter of freedom of choice IMO.

Partly. There's more to it, for diseases like polio, then just protecting an individual.

Vaccines protect the population. You choose not to get vaccinated, okay. Maybe you then contract it. You very well may infect those who have not yet been vaccinated but intend to or are unable to at present.

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89

Partly. There's more to it, for diseases like polio, then just protecting an individual.

Vaccines protect the population. You choose not to get vaccinated, okay. Maybe you then contract it. You very well may infect those who have not yet been vaccinated but intend to or are unable to at present.

I dont really know how polio works but if its a disease that spreads from person to person and its really rare in the modern world what are the chances of someone contracting it because they dont get their shot? And I guess thats just a chance people will have to take.

[Livewire]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

I dont really know how polio works but if its a disease that spreads from person to person and its really rare in the modern world what are the chances of someone contracting it because they dont get their shot? And I guess thats just a chance people will have to take.

Polio isn't an issue anymore because people got vaccinated against it.

[TRIFORCE89]

Originally Posted by AChipOffTheOldBrock

I dont really know how polio works but if its a disease that spreads from person to person and its really rare in the modern world what are the chances of someone contracting it because they dont get their shot? And I guess thats just a chance people will have to take.

It is really rare in the modern world because the population was vaccinated. That's how you fights these

Stop that and it returns

[AChipOffTheOldBrock]

Originally Posted by Livewire

Polio isn't an issue anymore because people got vaccinated against it.

So is it dead like smallpox or is it something where if you dont get a vaccination you are guaranteed to get it? Nvm I just read triforces post.

[SoulSilver10112]

I have a mild allergy to shots, and I always get sore for a few weeks. But, I still think that most vaccines should be essential in children, because children have quite weak immune systems, plus, it will prevent death and things that will effect you later in life. Others, like the flu shot, I think should remain optional to people, for it has to be taken every year to keep it. For me, that wouldn't work. I'd rather have 2 weeks of sickness then a month of not being able to do something as simple as raising my hand without pain. (Alllergic reaction) So I think some should be (or remain) optional (Like the flu and HPV) , but others, not so much. (Polio, Chickenpox, Measels, etc.)

[FreakyLocz14]

Liberals: What happened to "My Body, My Choice"?

[Toujours]

You're allowed to choose not to vaccinate. You just have to be homeschooled in that case. Kind of like things that aren't required of colleges, just required to receive federal funding.

The government has a vested interest in protecting the kids that they're making come together in massive groups for school. Thus it makes sense to require extra precautions.

[Livewire]

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89

It is really rare in the modern world because the population was vaccinated. That's how you fights these

Stop that and it returns

Old, but I just now saw this:

There's a term in Epidemiology called 'Herd Immunity' - basically, in order for a population to become immune to a pathogenic disease, 80-90% must be effectively vaccinated against that disease in order to prevent a widespread outbreak. Every single person who opts not to get vaccinated jeopardizes not only their own health but the communities health.

[Khawill]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Liberals: What happened to "My Body, My Choice"?

That doesn't really apply here, I can not choose legally to put a gun to my face and pull the trigger. Similarly you can not choose to endanger yourself by ignoring something as simple as getting a shot (face your fear of needles for your own safety)

On a side not, people who are suspect able to certain vaccines are not allowed to join the military (can't join cause smallpox vaccine will kill me)

[TRIFORCE89]

Originally Posted by Khawill

That doesn't really apply here, I can not choose legally to put a gun to my face and pull the trigger. Similarly you can not choose to endanger yourself by ignoring something as simple as getting a shot (face your fear of needles for your own safety)

Also, endangering others. Not just yourself.

[Lishy]

Some people might be surprised to hear I am actually a supporter of vaccines. They're a wonderful boon to protect ourselves from epidemics which plague the third world.

However, we also have to realize not all vaccines are good, and not all are bad either. Some vaccines are true to their purpose, while others such as Merck falsify their test results to push an ineffective mumps vaccine to the public (which ends up giving people the mumps.)

We have to realize that vaccines are very grey, but also very dangerous. That is because a manufacturer could put anything into your body and not be responsible for it.

Forced inoculations makes it all much more worrying.

It's a very grey area. But vaccines are just a tool. There for, we as a society need to remain vigilant about who manufactures our vaccines. Because they are the true culprit for crime, and not vaccines themselves.

[Catalyst.]

Originally Posted by Ausaudriel

Isn't it true that you have to be immunized in order to attend public school? And the law requires you attend (unless you were homeschooled like I was), so in a way they're sorta legally required. o.O

Wouldn't this go against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights's right to education? I don't know about the U.S.A, but in Canada, this has been gone through in court before, and the first was upheld. The schools still try to make you think it's needed, however. :P

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Khawill

That doesn't really apply here, I can not choose legally to put a gun to my face and pull the trigger. Similarly you can not choose to endanger yourself by ignoring something as simple as getting a shot (face your fear of needles for your own safety)

On a side not, people who are suspect able to certain vaccines are not allowed to join the military (can't join cause smallpox vaccine will kill me)

I would defend your right to end your own life. The govenrment has no business telling people what to do with their own bodies, be it using recreational drugs, comitting suicide, refusing vaccinations, engaging in prostitution, etc.

Originally Posted by Catalyst.

Wouldn't this go against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights's right to education? I don't know about the U.S.A, but in Canada, this has been gone through in court before, and the first was upheld. The schools still try to make you think it's needed, however.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not law in the United States.

[Khawill]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

I would defend your right to end your own life. The govenrment has no business telling people what to do with their own bodies, be it using recreational drugs, comitting suicide, refusing vaccinations, engaging in prostitution, etc.

That is so stupid humans don't operate off of constant logic, we are constantly influenced by on a whim emotions and changing ideas. Also people are commonly illogical. So let's say we make prostitution legal, what happens when those prostitutes start getting murdered? What happens when the rate of STDs go up because more people are ya know, doing the same tute? Laws keep people from doing stupid things by providing a punishment to deter it. Now you may make the argument "Well the guy should know that he is at risk." What if he is not given the proper education on the subject, or possibly it slips his mind?

The right to suicide is also a terrible belief. What about all the teenagers who commit suicide for extremely petty things, (my girlfriend broke up with me, my dog died, I got an F, nobody liked me today). Normally I could call the police, who will have the clearence to come in, arrest, detain, and rehabilitate or help that teen or adult. Now under your laws, I could call the police but they could not do anything about it and now I'm short one friend. Additionally you have people who overdose without knowing the consequence, and people who become depressed over a large event that doesn't warrant death (divorce, family/friend death,, or presidential election) the latter going off an illogical idea that "This is the only way out"

I agree with rec drugs, not hard, but certainly pot.

I don't mean to say the government knows best, but the people in it are more educated than the common man and there are scientists who work for the government in all fields.

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Khawill

That is so stupid humans don't operate off of constant logic, we are constantly influenced by on a whim emotions and changing ideas. Also people are commonly illogical. So let's say we make prostitution legal, what happens when those prostitutes start getting murdered? What happens when the rate of STDs go up because more people are ya know, doing the same tute? Laws keep people from doing stupid things by providing a punishment to deter it. Now you may make the argument "Well the guy should know that he is at risk." What if he is not given the proper education on the subject, or possibly it slips his mind?

The right to suicide is also a terrible belief. What about all the teenagers who commit suicide for extremely petty things, (my girlfriend broke up with me, my dog died, I got an F, nobody liked me today). Normally I could call the police, who will have the clearence to come in, arrest, detain, and rehabilitate or help that teen or adult. Now under your laws, I could call the police but they could not do anything about it and now I'm short one friend. Additionally you have people who overdose without knowing the consequence, and people who become depressed over a large event that doesn't warrant death (divorce, family/friend death,, or presidential election) the latter going off an illogical idea that "This is the only way out"

I agree with rec drugs, not hard, but certainly pot.

I don't mean to say the government knows best, but the people in it are more educated than the common man and there are scientists who work for the government in all fields.

Prostitition is already legal in Nevada, and there hasn't been a single case of HIV from legal prostitition activity in that state. The workers are also safe.

With prohibition come black market crime and exploitation, while legalization would bring regulation and unionization.

[Khawill]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Prostitition is already legal in Nevada, and there hasn't been a single case of HIV from legal prostitition activity in that state. The workers are also safe.

With prohibition come black market crime and exploitation, while legalization would bring regulation and unionization.

Please don't bring prohibition into this. They suddenly made a substance people had been drinking for centuries illegal (which people were easily addicted to). Not only this, but it is easy to make alcohol, as a matter of fact one extremely potent alcohol type. Now they tax the **** out of it (and tobacco) which lowers the cost. Also prohibition is another example of our human nature and body working against logic and reasoning (proving my point).

It isn't federally legal in Nevada (like pot in Washington/Colorado) meaning the FBI can sill come in a hammer down on the prostitutes if a problem arises (such as the leader of a gang who runs a brothel but they can't get anything on him but that).

Regarding HIV rates in Nevada please read this link http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/lega...ada/index.html
It explicitly details that you will be charged with a Felony if you engage in intercourse with an STD, which means they are still controlling our bodies for or safety. (Much in the same way a vaccine is required)

[Scarf]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

I would defend your right to end your own life. The govenrment has no business telling people what to do with their own bodies, be it using recreational drugs, comitting suicide, refusing vaccinations, engaging in prostitution, etc.

How you endanger yourself should be a question we talk about though. Refusing vaccinations is much, much more likely to have ramifications for other people than recreational drug use would. In this sense refusing vaccination can be in some cases putting other people at risk. Yes, I know, we should all take responsibility for ourselves, etc., but what of people whose choices are being made by other people? (Meaning children of parents who won't immunize them, let's say for religious reasons.) They become more and more at risk the more people opt not to immunize themselves. I'd rather that more people get vaccines than have some personal reassurance from a non-immunized person that they'd stay away from people if they got sick.

To me it's akin to reckless driving. (Not exactly the same thing, but with the same underlying principle.)