[Discussion] Vaccines

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by Scarf

but what of people whose choices are being made by other people? (Meaning children of parents who won't immunize them, let's say for religious reasons.) They become more and more at risk the more people opt not to immunize themselves.

If a parent is deciding not to vaccinate their child, that is none of my business, nor' responsibility.

Of course I do not condone religious baloney, but it's really not my responsibility. The world can't come crumbling down to accommodate one person's misfortunes.

Likewise, on that subject, forced inoculations is a bad, BAD idea! Neither the state nor' federal government should have the power to forcibly inoculate the population due to issues of not only preserving the liberty of an individual, but also because they're forcing me to put something inside my body I do not know or choose, and furthermore, that they are not responsible for. What if they put something immoral inside the vaccine they didn't want us to know about?

Population control and eugenics is certainly a scary thing, but it's also very concerning when we pave the way for it with forced inoculations. It probably isn't happening today, but it could easily happen if we provoke it to happen.

As it is people are already complaining about overpopulation. Do we really need forced inoculations where they could put whatever they want into our bodies and not be responsible?

Society should not use morality as an argument for this because the ramifications of it are far greater than anything else.

[Shiny Celebi]

You sound overly paranoid no offense. Vaccines are meant to protect people from diseases , nothing else. By not vaccinating people, there is a risk of an outbreak of Polio or other diseases which dosent exist when the whole population is vaccinated. Its just too much of a risk because when people stop getting vaccinated, the disease has a chance to infect people who will transfer the disease to others that aren't. Personally Id rather get vaccinated then risk contracting a disease. No one wants these illnesses, they can kill people. There is a reason people have to get vaccinated. Because it dosen't just affect you, it's for everyone's health and safety.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by Shiny Celebi

You sound overly paranoid no offense.

Is anything I said incorrect though?

The issue is we should not be letting the government forcibly inject something into our bodies that they do not always fully declassify, and furthermore, that they're not responsible for if something goes wrong.

No one is stopping you from getting vaccinated. In fact, I actually do advise people to get vaccinated if they do their research and decide they trust the manufacturer. However, the issue arises once vaccinations are forced.

[Shiny Celebi]

I dont see what overpopulation has to do with people getting a vaccine. That's an entiely different issue. Im saying there is a reason vaccinations are required in some cases, such as before children enter school. I honestly dont think the government is putting malicious stuff in vaccines or using it to put mailicious stuff in our bodies.

[Khawill]

Dude, they give vaccines to everyone, they wouldn't put malicious substances in it for the sake of population control, that is stupid. Also not taking vaccines endangers others. I can't take smallpox vaccine, or I die (I was warned by my doctor, my federal doctor) If vaccines were not forced and that disease came back, you could spread it to me and I could die. This applies to other people with allergies to vaccines as well.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by Shiny Celebi

Im saying there is a reason there is a law requiring Vaccination.

Really? We're required by law to have a vaccine? Since when?

Originally Posted by Khawill

Dude, they give vaccines to everyone, they wouldn't put malicious substances in it for the sake of population control, that is stupid.

It doesn't matter what they actually put in the vaccines in the end. We shouldn't be giving stepping stones for malicious things in the first place. Vaccines especially.

You're missing the point that this is an issue of individual liberty versus forced vaccines.

If you guys seriously believe in forced inoculations, we might as well take it a step further and have Gestapo police barging into our houses and forcing our children to take Ritalin and other pills. Because that's essentially the same thing as forcing someone to be vaccinated by law.

And don't forget the only way to enforce a law is through force. I don't believe it's moral whatsoever for us to throw someone in jail for refusing a vaccine. Can you seriously tell me that is moral in any way whatsoever?

[Khawill]

Ritalin doesn't prevent people from dying, it is something to calm down people. Also people should be forced because it prevents ignorant people from inadvertadly endangering themselves. Not only this but there is no stepping stone for your paranoid fantasy genocide, the government has better ways to control the population than outright killing people.
Such as
-Legal Abortion
-Less child tax breaks
-Teaching about birth control
-Child birth limits
-Childcare for a limited amount of children per family

Also it isn't the government's job to control the population unless it gets way out of hand, it is the parent's job to raise their children responsibly.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by Khawill

Ritalin doesn't prevent people from dying, it is something to calm down people. Also people should be forced because it prevents ignorant people from inadvertadly endangering themselves. Not only this but there is no stepping stone for your paranoid fantasy genocide...

It doesn't matter. Ritalin is still a comparison because you're still mandating someone by law must consume a drug.

And I'm not saying the government will use vaccines as a fantasy-genocide. I'm saying that opening up the possibility with forced vaccinations is dangerous for society in the longterm. Especially at the cost of our individual liberties for our own bodies. And don't forget that the government is not responsible if you get sick from the vaccine!

But ultimately, if someone is ignorant and endangering themselves, that is none of your business. What someone does to their own body is absolutely none of your business. Period.

Originally Posted by Khawill

...people should be forced because it prevents ignorant people from inadvertadly endangering themselves...

Don't you have any idea what the founding fathers of America fought over?

[Khawill]

Originally Posted by Lishy

It doesn't matter. Ritalin is still a comparison because you're still mandating someone by law must consume a drug.

And I'm not saying the government will use vaccines as a fantasy-genocide. I'm saying that opening up the possibility with forced vaccinations is dangerous for society in the longterm. Especially at the cost of our individual liberties for our own bodies. And don't forget that the government is not responsible if you get sick from the vaccine!

But ultimately, if someone is ignorant and endangering themselves, that is none of your business. What someone does to their own body is absolutely none of your business. Period.

Are you for or against gay marriage? (It is relevant to my argument)

Also, ignorance is something different than choosing not to do it. When someone is ignorant, they may choose not to do it because they don't know the consequence of not doing it. It would be like if I gave someone allergic to peanuts a snickers bar (assume they have never seen it before). They would choose to eat it, but they would not be able to know that nuts are in it.

Also vaccines are not drugs, they are a harmless version of a virus that makes your body immune to it. There are very rare side effects, and there is little reason not to take them.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by Khawill

Are you for or against gay marriage? (It is relevant to my argument)

Also, ignorance is something different than choosing not to do it. When someone is ignorant, they may choose not to do it because they don't know the consequence of not doing it. It would be like if I gave someone allergic to peanuts a snickers bar (assume they have never seen it before). They would choose to eat it, but they would not be able to know that nuts are in it.

Also vaccines are not drugs, they are a harmless version of a virus that makes your body immune to it. There are very rare side effects, and there is little reason not to take them.

How the heck is gay marriage even relevant for an issue like this?

And I'm fully aware of the consequences if I choose not to have a vaccine. But I'm also not responsible for someone else who didn't have the vaccine. I don't like being treated like cattle, you know.

Your analogy doesn't make sense in this argument because they're willingly acting. He still chose to have the snickers bar. I'm not responsible for his decisions chose to eat it.

But the bottomline is forced vaccinations are still mandates to inject something into our body against our will. Its effectiveness at stopping viruses is irrelevant. You're absolutely missing the point about individual liberties, entirely!

A bureaucracy should not be able to decide what a population can do to their own bodies. They especially should not force them to consume a substance because that is essentially martial law where the government controls the population.

Originally Posted by Khawill

Also it isn't the government's job to control the population unless it gets way out of hand...

No it's not. People are supposed to protest. That is the heart of freedom. People are supposed to control the government through a representative republic! NOT the other way around!

The only "out of hand" that exists is when we start violating others' liberties.

We have the second amendment so that when the first amendment is violated, we as Americans are allowed to rise up and take it back. That is why it is specifically the second amendment of our constitution after the first.

Don't ask me. Ask Benjamin Franklin and George Washington. They knew what it meant to fight for freedom.

[Shiny Celebi]

Originally Posted by Lishy

Really? We're required by law to have a vaccine? Since when?


It doesn't matter what they actually put in the vaccines in the end. We shouldn't be giving stepping stones for malicious things in the first place. Vaccines especially.

You're missing the point that this is an issue of individual liberty versus forced vaccines.

If you guys seriously believe in forced inoculations, we might as well take it a step further and have Gestapo police barging into our houses and forcing our children to take Ritalin and other pills. Because that's essentially the same thing as forcing someone to be vaccinated by law.

And don't forget the only way to enforce a law is through force. I don't believe it's moral whatsoever for us to throw someone in jail for refusing a vaccine. Can you seriously tell me that is moral in any way whatsoever?

No one forces you to take Ritalin or any medication. No one is going to slip things into vaccines and give them to everyone and use if for population control or whatever. about the law thing, I think I missunderstood, I think you just have to take them before entering schools as a school requirement, please excuse my missunderstanding. Ive edited my post.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by Shiny Celebi

No one forces you to take Ritalin or any medication. No one is going to slip things into vaccines and give them to everyone and use if for population control or whatever. about the law thing, I think I missunderstood, I think you just have to take them before entering schools as a school requirement, please excuse my missunderstanding. Ive edited my post.

Thankfully no one forces the population to take Ritalin, and I hope Americans continue to defend our rights and liberties to our own bodies.

No one should be forced to take any sort of medication or vaccine by law because that is essentially martial law. And I'm not pulling fear-mongering out of my behind, because that is the actual definition of martial law. It allows the government to assume absolute control in order to combat a threat. In this case, forcibly medicating the population is on par with dictatorial rule, even if such is driven by a democracy. This is because you're forced by the government to undergo a modification of your body without your consent.

Just understand that for the sustainability of the republic of America, we must respect each others' liberties. Otherwise we ignore everything our founding fathers stood for when they fought for independence.

It's not complicated math. Just respect other people, and they will respect you.

As for vaccines and school, under current laws, you are actually allowed to sign a waiver form if you do not have a vaccine. No public school is allowed to forbid you from entry over a vaccine. This is quite explicit in the law because we have waiver forms. The reason for this law is because YOU, the taxpayer, are paying the bills for the schools to remain open!

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Lishy

Thankfully no one forces the population to take Ritalin, and I hope Americans continue to defend our rights and liberties to our own bodies.

No one should be forced to take any sort of medication or vaccine by law because that is essentially martial law. And I'm not pulling fear-mongering out of my behind, because that is the actual definition of martial law. It allows the government to assume absolute control in order to combat a threat. In this case, forcibly medicating the population is on par with dictatorial rule, even if such is driven by a democracy. This is because you're forced by the government to undergo a modification of your body without your consent.

Just understand that for the sustainability of the republic of America, we must respect each others' liberties. Otherwise we ignore everything our founding fathers stood for when they fought for independence.

It's not complicated math. Just respect other people, and they will respect you.

As for vaccines and school, under current laws, you are actually allowed to sign a waiver form if you do not have a vaccine. No public school is allowed to forbid you from entry over a vaccine. This is quite explicit in the law because we have waiver forms. The reason for this law is because YOU, the taxpayer, are paying the bills for the schools to remain open!

Ah, but education is compulsory, so vaccination is legally forced.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Ah, but education is compulsory, so vaccination is legally forced.

Actually, you can sign a waiver.

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Lishy

Actually, you can sign a waiver.

Not here in California. A doctor has to allow you to opt your child out.

[Lishy]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Not here in California. A doctor has to allow you to opt your child out.

I am not familiar with California law, but someone on Yahoo Answers addressed this from 2 years ago. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1201959AArCIMd Things may have changed since then. Though, I certainly do not agree with the law.

[Toujours]

A personal beliefs exemption shall be granted upon the filing with the governing authority a letter or affidavit from the pupil's parent or guardian or the person seeking admission if an emancipated minor or adult, that such immunization is contrary to his or her beliefs.

Source

In addition, group education is not compulsory. Parents are free to homeschool their children.

[⊗Slenderman⊗]

I don't think it should be required.
I heard (correct me if this is wrong) that the H1N1 vaccine contains carcinogens and the creators of it refuse to get the vaccine.

There are many chemicals in foods and drinks that can cause cancer as well as mental problems and many other things...so why put even more chemicals inside yourself?

Some I can understand...things that are deadly, for example (not including H1N1). But some are not necessary (i.e. being given HPV vaccines in 6th or whatever grade, like I was offered at that age).

[TRIFORCE89]

Originally Posted by ⊗Slenderman⊗

I don't think it should be required.
I heard (correct me if this is wrong) that the H1N1 vaccine contains carcinogens and the creators of it refuse to get the vaccine.

There are many chemicals in foods and drinks that can cause cancer as well as mental problems and many other things...so why put even more chemicals inside yourself?

Some I can understand...things that are deadly, for example (not including H1N1). But some are not necessary (i.e. being given HPV vaccines in 6th or whatever grade, like I was offered at that age).

HPV can lead to cancer. How isn't that deadly?

[Insomniac]

I think that NOT getting a vaccination is pretty stupid. Taking the risk of losing your life to a microscopic disease is not smart, in my opinion. I think that the vaccinations help a whole bunch.. Especially if you don't want STDs or to die.
I have my own opinions, but whatever. I think they're good, but if you want to roll around in mud all day to prove to me that you don't get diseases, fine by me, that's your loss.

[⊗Slenderman⊗]

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89

HPV can lead to cancer. How isn't that deadly?

Yes, but remember that I was only in around 6th grade. Considering the means of transferring it, I was at no risk.

[FreakyLocz14]

Originally Posted by Insomniac

I think that NOT getting a vaccination is pretty stupid. Taking the risk of losing your life to a microscopic disease is not smart, in my opinion. I think that the vaccinations help a whole bunch.. Especially if you don't want STDs or to die.
I have my own opinions, but whatever. I think they're good, but if you want to roll around in mud all day to prove to me that you don't get diseases, fine by me, that's your loss.

Vaccinations aren't life-saving for everybody. In fact, they can be reason why a person dies. Many people have adverse reactions to vaccinations. The Gardasil vaccine in particular is a very deadly vaccine, but others can be also cause adverse reactions in people.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Vaccinations aren't life-saving for everybody. In fact, they can be reason why a person dies. Many people have adverse reactions to vaccinations. The Gardasil vaccine in particular is a very deadly vaccine, but others can be also cause adverse reactions in people.

The very cold truth is that they save many more lives then they kill. This is why they are used. Sure the vaccine may kill a dozen or two people a year, but it also saves thousands per year.

The only reason people raise **** about these deaths, is because it is impossible to say if they would have been killed by the disease had they gone vaccine free.

[SwiftSign]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Vaccinations aren't life-saving for everybody. In fact, they can be reason why a person dies. Many people have adverse reactions to vaccinations. The Gardasil vaccine in particular is a very deadly vaccine, but others can be also cause adverse reactions in people.

People don't die from vaccinations, they die from poor practice or the unlucky '1 in a million' circumstance. People are tested for allergic reactions before they receive a vaccination in the vast majority of cases.

[Livewire]

Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14

Vaccinations aren't life-saving for everybody. In fact, they can be reason why a person dies. Many people have adverse reactions to vaccinations. The Gardasil vaccine in particular is a very deadly vaccine, but others can be also cause adverse reactions in people.

The chances of a complication from a vaccine are literally one in a million or more in some instances. Basically, non-existent. And most adverse reactions are due to underlying conditions.