Gen V: More Controversial Than Gen III

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Ever since the announcement of Pokemon Black/White, there's been a lot of controversy within the franchise's community regarding the fifth generation:

- The fact that it's not a 3DS title
- The titles have gone back to colors rather than metal/gems
- The main trainers are older than 10
- A female professor
- Pokemon evolving later than usual
- The Dream World
- The starters' performance in battle
- Garbador line
- Vanilluxe line
- The Kami trio being recolors
- BW's story
- N in general
- Unova's linearity, which has been explained by the developers
- Unlimited TM use
- HMs aren't constantly used often in the story
- Healers in caves
- You don't face the champion after beating the Elite 4 until post-story
- Removal of the Battle Frontier
- No VS Seeker
- Sequels instead of an anticipated third version
- The fact that said sequels aren't on the 3DS
- The Dream Radar
- The Kami Trio getting new formes to make them look different
- Cheren as a Gym Leader, ruining Blue's uniqueness
- Kyurem can't be caught until post-story
- Iris as champion
- The difficulty setting
- The Pokemon World Tournament

I haven't seen this much hate on a certain gen since the Ruby/Sapphire days. Could Gen V perhaps be the most polarized gen in the whole series?

[LilJz1234]

Probably because they have added YET another set of Pokemon and people find it too much.

But also, most people that seems to complain about Black & White, are also the people who didn't even try the game, and stay on the Gen I games saying the rest are crap.

I haven't yet tried BW2 but I did get Pokemon White a few days ago, and even though I didn't play it that much yet, I gotta say that I'm loving really loving the game as to now.

And that's saying something, because me too, I used to bash on the Gen V serie.

[Cerberus87]

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

I haven't seen this much hate on a certain gen since the Ruby/Sapphire days. Could Gen V perhaps be the most polarized gen in the whole series?

Yet BW was a change for the good. RSE was a change for the worse.

[Heracles4]

RSE was a step in the right direction, compared to GSC....


Oh, add to the list: No Safari Zone, No poisoning outside of battle. I think the dream world is a ridiculous thing

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by Heracles4

Oh, add to the list: No Safari Zone, No poisoning outside of battle. I think the dream world is a ridiculous thing

Thanks for reminding me those, and I also remembered the lack of game corners.

[coolcatkim22]

I don't like B/W for three simple reasons:
1. It pretends to be new when it's just rehashing old ideas.
2. It trying to be like other RPGs, and not even like the good RPGs.
3. It doesn't try to be challenging.

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by coolcatkim22

1. It pretends to be new when it's just rehashing old ideas.

It was never meant to be new to begin with; it was trying to be more like the first generation with all the mechanics introduced from the later gens.

2. It trying to be like other RPGs, and not even like the good RPGs.

I don't understand this reason. :/

3. It doesn't try to be challenging.

Pokemon was never meant to be challenging; that's why players make up their own challenges such as the Nuzlocke Challenge. The supposed in-game challenges you've went through was due to errors developers made during the making of these games such as Psychic types being Game Breakers.

[AdrianD]

I think that this is the best Gen so far. I like the unlimited Tm uses. I dont see why it matters if a professor is male or female. I also know that you have to keep up with the times staying behind does you no good. I am liking the DW. I like that you can play B/W longer term for other things other then catching pokemon. ie Gens 1 and G+S 2.

[Hikari10]

To be honest, 5th Generation has to be the best ever cos it changed loads of things in Pokemon and did a lot of twists and turns at us.

I enjoyed Black and White so much and they became my favorite games, and I'm getting Black 2 and White 2 soon which hopefully might be just as awesome for me.

I really enjoyed the changes 5th Generation brought us, which is why I don't get all the hate behind it.

Unlimited TM uses really helped me get better movesets on my Pokemon, and it was something I wanted.

Also, B2/W2 introduced the Repel reminder, which comes up when you run out of a Repel and want to use another. Saves time looking through the bag.

[Aeon]

Honestly when Gen V was announced I was anticipating it to get the hate that it has. The amount of negativity Black and White were getting prior to their release was quite unexpected, and now that I think of it. I really like them though, despite some of the new Pokemon evolution lines being rather disappointing (mainly the two in the OP.) I actually liked the story, even though it might had been a little overdone by the end.

[Ninja Caterpie]

I can't tell how much of your list is legit but I'll separate it and answer it accordingly.

Spoiler:

- The fact that it's not a 3DS title
- The titles have gone back to colors rather than metal/gems
- The main trainers are older than 10
- A female professor
- Pokemon evolving later than usual
- The fact that said sequels aren't on the 3DS
- HMs aren't constantly used often in the story
- Cheren as a Gym Leader, ruining Blue's uniqueness

people will whine about anything.

- Sequels instead of an anticipated third version

??????? third versions were always lacking in content and people whine about how little there are changes, now that there are changes people whine about too much ??????

- The Kami trio being recolors
- The Kami Trio getting new formes to make them look different
- Removal of the Battle Frontier
- The Pokemon World Tournament

WHINE HARDER.

ps. I love the PWT.

- Garbador line
- Vanilluxe line

There are always "stupid" pokemon.

- Unlimited TM use

This is a good thing.

- Unova's linearity, which has been explained by the developers

Because every other region was not linear and backtracking is fun.

- The difficulty setting
- Healers in caves

Pokemon was never hard, and if you want to make it harder, don't use the healers. Problem solved.

- BW's story

Pretty sure people whine about older games having no story as well, so...

- The Dream World
- The Dream Radar

Don't like these; don't use them.

- You don't face the champion after beating the Elite 4 until post-story
- Kyurem can't be caught until post-story

I've typed "whine" so much it has stopped having meaning.

- The starters' performance in battle

This is one of the few legit points, but it's not like they're absolutely terrible. Now you don't feel bad about using something else for variety because they're not massive powerhouses.

- Iris as champion
- N in general

That's an opinion. I happen to like both characters so I have nothing to say.

Which leads me to the last real criticism I can find on the list.

- No VS Seeker

tl;dr whiners gonna whine.

[Kenshin5]

I'm not seeing out of most points you made that dubs this generation in more or less controversial. Too me it just seems nitpicking cause you dislike certain aspects. I feel every game has aspects that a person dislikes, but that doesn't make it controversial.

[Sassy Milkshake]

It all boils down to one's perception of the generations. I for one hear a lot of people giving DPPt a lot of crap because of all the pointless evolutions. So comparing BW to RSE might not exactly be accurate.

But yeah there's a lot of changes. I don't consider them all exactly controversial exactly, then every generation would have its controversies.

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by Kenshin5

I'm not seeing out of most points you made that dubs this generation in more or less controversial. Too me it just seems nitpicking cause you dislike certain aspects. I feel every game has aspects that a person dislikes, but that doesn't make it controversial.

I never said I dislike Gen V; I've just listed out the points people make to dislike them that makes it controversial.

I for one hear a lot of people giving DPPt a lot of crap because of all the pointless evolutions.

But those evolutions were a necessity to keep them from being obselete/outclassed by other Pokemon. Some even got a huge benefit from these evolutions (i.e. Roselia, Electibuzz, and Poliswine).

[Wind Heart]

- Sequels instead of an anticipated third version

When I think of a possible third version of Gen V Game, I wonder what would Game Freak do with Black City and White Forest since they're different, yet located on the same spot. So IMO it's the good thing we get the sequels, although now Black City and White Forest looks similar (of feature) in the sequels.

[Suicune™]

Ironically, if Gen III remakes were introduced into Gen V, it would most likely negate the hate for Generation V going by the amount of demand for RS remakes. IMO I think B2W2 are the best games to date and BW don't fall too far behind.

[coolcatkim22]

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

It was never meant to be new to begin with; it was trying to be more like the first generation with all the mechanics introduced from the later gens.

That's the problem. It should have meant to be new to begin with. Ever since lg/fr all we have been getting is games that are trying to be like the old games but with new mechanics. Why do we another one attempting to do this?

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

I don't understand this reason. :/

Okay, um, it's trying to be like other RPGs instead of it's own story. It started during R/S/E where it started to be more about saving the world from a very powerful being. Now, there is was trying to copy other good RPGs. In B/W it tries to copy bad RPGs by adding in unnecessary drama, poorly done plots, odd locations, etc. There are so many things that they are clearly just taking elements from other RPGs and it doesn't work in this series.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Pokemon was never meant to be challenging; that's why players make up their own challenges such as the Nuzlocke Challenge. The supposed in-game challenges you've went through was due to errors developers made during the making of these games such as Psychic types being Game Breakers.

Battles aren't challenges? Gyms aren't challenges? Problem solving isn't a challenge?
Of course Pokemon was meant to be challenging! If it wasn't it'd be a game where all you have to do to win is walk forward. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Now granted, I'm not saying B/W is as easy as just walking forward but it's not as challenging. The map in linear, grinding is easier, catching Pokemon is easier, everything is easier for the casual player. The only things that are actually challenging in the games are only challenging because they made them needlessly complicated.

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by coolcatkim22

That's the problem. It should have meant to be new to begin with. Ever since lg/fr all we have been getting is games that are trying to be like the old games but with new mechanics. Why do we another one attempting to do this?


Okay, um, it's trying to be like other RPGs instead of it's own story. It started during R/S/E where it started to be more about saving the world from a very powerful being. Now, there is was trying to copy other good RPGs. In B/W it tries to copy bad RPGs by adding in unnecessary drama, poorly done plots, odd locations, etc. There are so many things that they are clearly just taking elements from other RPGs and it doesn't work in this series.

Now you're contradicting yourself. You want Gen V to be less like Gen I in terms of in-game features yet you want Gen V's story to be more like Gen I? Wasn't Gen I's story originally going to be about a trainer saving the world from a villain?

Battles aren't challenges? Gyms aren't challenges? Problem solving isn't a challenge?
Of course Pokemon was meant to be challenging! If it wasn't it'd be a game where all you have to do to win is walk forward. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Now granted, I'm not saying B/W is as easy as just walking forward but it's not as challenging. The map in linear, grinding is easier, catching Pokemon is easier, everything is easier for the casual player. The only things that are actually challenging in the games are only challenging because they made them needlessly complicated.

The map is linear for reason, because kids had trouble getting to Snowpoint City. It's not like the grinding system was broken to begin with as the older system from previous titles were flawed too (being able to curbstomp everything with one Pokemon for example). You just answered your own question, Pokemon is suppose to be a casual player's beginner for the RPG genre before moving onto others like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade, but even then, it's still the best-selling RPG of all time due to having an element used in Western RPGs: Playing as yourself as a trainer rather playing as a character with his own personality and backstory, as found in JRPGs. People can choose to make the game challenging by making their own rules.

It's people like you, as well as the people from 4chan, the reason why I made this thread in the first place.

[Iceman3317]

Only reason people say it is easy is because they are use to the games. You know the weaknesses, you know what to use and what not to use. These games are probably harder for new people, not people who have played forever. And to be honest, 5th Gen has by far been one of the harder games. These games are for young kids not older people. That is why it is easyer. Otherwise, it would have E10+ rateing.

There are some route that are easyer to get through than others, but some are a challenge. Grinding I am glad is easier so you don't have to no life getting pokemon up in level. They made that change because people were complaing.

[Arlo]

In order to fully convey the necessary point I must descend into slang - haters gon' hate.

Seriously, that's what it seems to come down to to me. There are just a number of people who were bound and determined (and a surprising number who still are) to hate this generation (or IV, or III, or II...), and that's just that. The reasons are secondary - most of the time, they don't even seem particularly well thought out, and a disconcerting amount of the time, the people expressing them haven't even played the games - they've just already decided they hate them because... whatever.

I say just let 'em be. If someone wants to waste their time and energy hating games that they haven't even played for reasons that don't seem to make any sense anyway, that's their right, and their problem. It makes no difference to me, or to my enjoyment of the games, just as it made no difference in Gen IV or Gen III, and won't make any difference in Gen VI, when there will be another whole raft of people who hate the games because... whatever.

Originally Posted by Iceman3317

Only reason people say it is easy is because they are use to the games. You know the weaknesses, you know what to use and what not to use. These games are probably harder for new people, not people who have played forever.

The "too easy" bit especially amuses me. I have to wonder how many of the people (at least the ones who have actually played the games) who complain that they're too easy are going through with a team made up of past generation starters and level 100 legendaries. So yeah - of course it's "too easy," but that's because they 're using uber pokemon. If they don't want it to be so easy, they should park the level 100 Rayquaza in the PC and try a level 30 Axew. Or better yet, a level 10 Purrloin. I guarantee it'll get a whole lot more difficult in a hurry.

[Keiran777]

Just wait for the next gen to come out and people will find new, pointless things to complain about meanwhile they'll regard BW/2 as a great generation. This has happened for Gen 2..3..and 4. The games have only gotten better with time. Try playing Gen 1 in this day and age; it's terribly boring and very bugged and there is literally nothing to do after beating the E4.

[coolcatkim22]

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Now you're contradicting yourself. You want Gen V to be less like Gen I in terms of in-game features yet you want Gen V's story to be more like Gen I?

Kind of. I mean, I still want there to be certain features from Gen 1 in it and the story doesn't have to be exactly like Gen 1's but similar.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Wasn't Gen I's story originally going to be about a trainer saving the world from a villain?

Not exactly. It was more about the main character trying to prove himself to his rival while also trying to fulfill the dreams of Professor Oak.
The villains were more or less just there. The hero wasn't really fighting them because he was trying to save the world, or because he's journey was about fighting evil. It was just something he sort of did partially because Team Rocket kept challenging him, partially because they were in his way and partially because he thought what they were doing was wrong.
Though, you could argue with that and say the hero meant to disband Team Rocket or at least stop Giovanni, and being that he's a silent protagonist I couldn't argue with that but, it's kind of hard to think that he would have that in mind when he has other objectives and he's only ten.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

The map is linear for reason, because kids had trouble getting to Snowpoint City.

Yeah I know, that was a stupid reason. Look, I'm not saying that the game should go all over the place but making it linear is just way to simplistic.
In every game there are going to be parts where the players get stuck (except in simple games like pong). It's natural for that happen and your suppose to figure out a way to over come them. It doesn't mean necessarily, that the game is flawed and the game has to become easier.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

It's not like the grinding system was broken to begin with as the older system from previous titles were flawed too (being able to curbstomp everything with one Pokemon for example).

I don't know about this. Could you give me an example?

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

You just answered your own question, Pokemon is suppose to be a casual player's beginner for the RPG genre before moving onto others like Fire Emblem and Xenoblade,

No, no it is not. I don't even know where you got this idea from.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

People can choose to make the game challenging by making their own rules.

So? I can do that with anything. I don't buy games so I put restrictions on myself, I buy games so they can challenge me.

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by coolcatkim22

Kind of. I mean, I still want there to be certain features from Gen 1 in it and the story doesn't have to be exactly like Gen 1's but similar.

Then you're just another one of those Kanto purists.

Not exactly. It was more about the main character trying to prove himself to his rival while also trying to fulfill the dreams of Professor Oak.
The villains were more or less just there. The hero wasn't really fighting them because he was trying to save the world, or because he's journey was about fighting evil. It was just something he sort of did partially because Team Rocket kept challenging him, partially because they were in his way and partially because he thought what they were doing was wrong.
Though, you could argue with that and say the hero meant to disband Team Rocket or at least stop Giovanni, and being that he's a silent protagonist I couldn't argue with that but, it's kind of hard to think that he would have that in mind when he has other objectives and he's only ten.

If you read any of Masuda's interviews regarding Gen 1, he said that the story was going to be about a trainer stopping a villain from taking over the world before it was changed into just collecting Pokemon and becoming champion.

Yeah I know, that was a stupid reason. Look, I'm not saying that the game should go all over the place but making it linear is just way to simplistic.
In every game there are going to be parts where the players get stuck (except in simple games like pong). It's natural for that happen and your suppose to figure out a way to over come them. It doesn't mean necessarily, that the game is flawed and the game has to become easier.

But there are parts where it's impossible to get past by yourself through trial and error, resorting you to use a guide to help you. It has happened to me in the past, and it has happened to me today.

I don't know about this. Could you give me an example?

In one of BMGF's weekly polls, it mentioned about Gen I-IV having an old EXP system that was based on the number of EXP the Pokemon gives regardless of what level it is on. Training by beating Pokemon who give out the highest EXP helped result ing overpowering one of your Pokemon. This was later changed in Gen V when it's also based on the level of the Pokemon you're facing, so your Pokemon doesn't gain so many levels. TV Tropes also mentions this on their Game Breaker page for more information.

No, no it is not. I don't even know where you got this idea from.

Nintendo has always been making games that are easy to pick up, fun to play, but hard to master (if you want to go competitive). Casual players tend to be afraid of traditional JRPGs for their complex game mechanics.

So? I can do that with anything. I don't buy games so I put restrictions on myself, I buy games so they can challenge me.

Then you're better off playing NES/arcade games than modern day games.

[coolcatkim22]

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Then you're just another one of those Kanto purists.

I don't know what that is.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

If you read any of Masuda's interviews regarding Gen 1, he said that the story was going to be about a trainer stopping a villain from taking over the world before it was changed into just collecting Pokemon and becoming champion.

So, what?

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

But there are parts where it's impossible to get past by yourself through trial and error, resorting you to use a guide to help you. It has happened to me in the past, and it has happened to me today.

Not necessarily. Although guides are helpful so long as the game isn't too convoluted and you pay avid attention you could probably figure it out on your own.
Even so, the point I was trying to make is that no matter how difficult a game is, so long as it isn't broken do not try to fix it by making it simple.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

In one of BMGF's weekly polls, it mentioned about Gen I-IV having an old EXP system that was based on the number of EXP the Pokemon gives regardless of what level it is on. Training by beating Pokemon who give out the highest EXP helped result ing overpowering one of your Pokemon. This was later changed in Gen V when it's also based on the level of the Pokemon you're facing, so your Pokemon doesn't gain so many levels. TV Tropes also mentions this on their Game Breaker page for more information.

Well, when I was talking about the grinding system I was more referring to how Audinos are everywhere and you get a Lucky Egg and Exp. Share very early on in the games. Not to mention how there are trainers every where.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Nintendo has always been making games that are easy to pick up, fun to play, but hard to master (if you want to go competitive). Casual players tend to be afraid of traditional JRPGs for their complex game mechanics.

I don't know of many people who pick up Pokemon so they can play other RPGs. Or even players that got into other RPGs because of Pokemon.
I don't know, I just, I don't play other RPGs because I played Pokemon. I play other RPGs if they appeal to my interests and even then I've never been afraid to pick up a new game (unless it was in the horror genre).
That's probably just me. Personally, there's very little chance that I would pick up Fire Emblem or Xenoblade, not because I'm afraid, but because it's nothing I'm interest in. I play Pokemon because I like Pokemon, not because it's a starter RPG but because it's a light hearted adventure in a world with magical creatures that you can befriend and watch grow.

Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn

Then you're better off playing NES/arcade games than modern day games.

Wow, way to insult modern games. Basically you're saying that NES and arcade games are the only good games. That's sad, that's really sad.

[Pinkie-Dawn]

Originally Posted by coolcatkim22

I don't know what that is.

Fans who think anything that's not like Gen 1 is crud.

So, what?

So it means the game's story is slowly evolving to what the developers originally planned.

Not necessarily. Although guides are helpful so long as the game isn't too convoluted and you pay avid attention you could probably figure it out on your own.
Even so, the point I was trying to make is that no matter how difficult a game is, so long as it isn't broken do not try to fix it by making it simple.

You have no idea how many people hate Victory Road, as well as Mt. Coronet, because of their frustrating puzzles. The series' primary target are children, and they don't want to place time-consuming puzzles. If you really want the puzzles to stay complex, then they could try to input a super guide like they did with the Zelda games to help younger players.

Well, when I was talking about the grinding system I was more referring to how Audinos are everywhere and you get a Lucky Egg and Exp. Share very early on in the games. Not to mention how there are trainers every where.

Then don't face Audinos; they're really easy to avoid.

Wow, way to insult modern games. Basically you're saying that NES and arcade games are the only good games. That's sad, that's really sad.

When did I ever said that? You said you wanted games to challenge you, and I only said you should play NES/arcade games, because modern games aren't as difficult as those games. Regardless of that, Iceman3317 pretty much nailed why you find these Pokemon games easy, because you've been playing Pokemon for years. Have you ever considered reading any of these comment on this thread?