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View Poll Results: Would you help make a Community Hack?
Yes 19 54.29%
Possibly 14 40.00%
No 2 5.71%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1    
Old November 27th, 2012, 02:03 AM
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What do you ROM Hackers here at PC think about a Community Hack? Like where all of us ROM Hackers here work together to make a fabulous hack? Since we all have something we specialize in, we could make a perfect hack. Fudgey said "That could be an interesting idea (though difficult to implement) and would probably be the largest team ever assembled lol." Which is true. Thoughts on this?
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  #2    
Old December 1st, 2012, 01:38 AM
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I think Dr.Fuji is right it would be very hard to do since I think many will join and try to help and I think it will make the hack difficult to become a great hack because of the many Ideas of people and some might not get along. Or maybe some will say that they will help but will quit some time around. And it could be abandoned as well like what happened to the other forum's community hack...
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  #3    
Old December 1st, 2012, 11:56 AM
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As the idiom goes, too many chefs spoil the broth.
But it could be interesting. I mean, each of us could create a map and scripts for it, some of us could create custom sprites in order to create a giant hack. Albeit the problem would be the continuity. Some people may be making their maps to hard, while other may be making their maps too easy. So we would need a lot of standardization.
  #4    
Old December 2nd, 2012, 12:21 AM
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Also to point things out, what's the point?

Isn't a team thread considered a community hack as well? Cause you are looking for people to help you with your hack in a community. People just doesn't go/apply to team threads because they are either lazy or not up to it. And also Ach7AC is right there must be someone leading the team so he/she can put up the hack's standards and it is most likely that you will get newbies to help in this.
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  #5    
Old December 2nd, 2012, 01:41 PM
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i love this idea im up for it
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  #6    
Old December 5th, 2012, 12:37 AM
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A community hack sounds great and all... but having said that, if there's no director of the ROM hack to organize the storyline or at least put in polls for voting in which ideas to use and stuff every 2 weeks or so... then a community hack won't exactly go as planned and would end up failing to be achieved.

If we were to start a community hack... there needs to be someone in charge of gathering all the ideas from the user's posts and then putting it all into a poll that would go for 2 weeks and one that is most voted would be used in the community hack and the people who are willing to help out with putting into the hack of what was most voted. There would need to be volunteer developers who are willing to accept whatever was most voted to put into the ROM hack.

And that... is the only way of how a community hack would work out properly... so that there's no arguments involved and all things chosen in a vote.
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  #7    
Old December 20th, 2012, 03:50 AM
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The problem with a vote is you end up having at least a portion of people voting for the general coolest thing rather than one that fits with everything else (ie. nobody has vision) and it ends up feeling very stuck-together and not cohesive.

If it were to happen, I would think it would end up just being one guy who actually 'directs' the hack, while the community gives input and makes maps/scripts/sprites/etc.
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  #8    
Old December 21st, 2012, 04:30 PM
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With the general disparity in skill levels, it would not go well.

There's like, noob, respectable, a seemingly gigantic abyss, and then the hackers that actually know their stuff.

Not only that, the fact that ROM hacking in general requires you to be good at a whole bunch of disparate things, someone could be godlike with ASM but their maps look like a toddler put them together. Most new hackers are, frankly, bad at everything and need practice. Including the people who just downloaded Advance Map and XSE would ruin it for sure.

Cutting to the chase, if a community hack happened, the quality would be so horrendously terrible that it wouldn't even be worth looking at.
  #9    
Old January 17th, 2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Deokishisu View Post
With the general disparity in skill levels, it would not go well.

There's like, noob, respectable, a seemingly gigantic abyss, and then the hackers that actually know their stuff.

Not only that, the fact that ROM hacking in general requires you to be good at a whole bunch of disparate things, someone could be godlike with ASM but their maps look like a toddler put them together. Most new hackers are, frankly, bad at everything and need practice. Including the people who just downloaded Advance Map and XSE would ruin it for sure.

Cutting to the chase, if a community hack happened, the quality would be so horrendously terrible that it wouldn't even be worth looking at.
Well, having a large community working on a project, if someone messes something up, or their share is not up to standard, another member who shares the skills in the same aspect can help boost the quality.

Teamwork, bro.
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  #10    
Old January 17th, 2013, 03:10 PM
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Maybe make more than one hack then? I don't know, it seems like a lot of people would result in a hack that's all over the place.
  #11    
Old January 19th, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Organizing the whole thing would be hard, difficult, challenging, not easy (and other words that imply some high level of difficulty).

I've seen something like this in the pixel art section. Where some guy would start off a sprite with a line or something and the each successive spriter would add to it something. It was really interesting to see how some of the sprites came out. Not sure if that anecdote was relevant at all, but it's supposed to be a hint. :D
  #12    
Old January 21st, 2013, 04:30 PM
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I don't know if I see it happening. Not because of the trouble it would take to get it organized, but rather because of the INCREDIBLE divide in opinions I could see sprouting up. A divide in opinions will likely make making any sort of headway rather difficult, and there will be a lot of arguing and quitting because of it.

Disregarding that, I don't really think that having such a large team is a good idea unless we voted on several heads of development, because there has to be at least one head or the hack would become disjointed and disorganized, and there has to be several to manage such a large team.

This is not to say that it wouldn't be possible, it certainly would be, but it would be quite the task to make, let alone to simply plan and put together.
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  #13    
Old January 21st, 2013, 05:32 PM
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See the problem is democracy. One person just needs to take charge and be the directer. Allocate a group of link minded people to make a storyline, a group of sprite artiest with similar talents, a group of mappers with similar styles, and bring it all together. I think unlike most people, that this can be done. The way it can be done is similar to how real games are made, where the directer sais do a Map this way, if you don't like it leave. This may seem harsh, but it will yield the best result.
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  #14    
Old January 21st, 2013, 05:55 PM
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See the problem is democracy. One person just needs to take charge and be the directer. Allocate a group of link minded people to make a storyline, a group of sprite artiest with similar talents, a group of mappers with similar styles, and bring it all together. I think unlike most people, that this can be done. The way it can be done is similar to how real games are made, where the directer sais do a Map this way, if you don't like it leave. This may seem harsh, but it will yield the best result.
That would imply less skilled hackers have no part in it, or at least next to nothing.
  #15    
Old January 21st, 2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
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That would imply less skilled hackers have no part in it, or at least next to nothing.
Not necesarily, they could vote and help decide. Also, we could use it as teaching tool for young hackers. We could asign them to write the basic scripts and then as we see them getting better and better, they get tougher and tougher assignments. If they don't like their jobs, we find someone else. Maybe, an experienced scripter is paired with a beginner. They work together and the younger (in terms of experience) can learn under the older one.

But then again, everyone could end up hating each other. This could bring us all together or it could tear us apart. But if everyone is only in it to make a hack by everyone and nobody's in it just for their name in the credits, then we shouldn't have a problem.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
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That would imply less skilled hackers have no part in it, or at least next to nothing.
And that is how it should be! Why would you want unskilled hackers working on the hack? That makes no sence, that is like a company hiring unskilled workers just because they live in the area.

I am just giving the outline for the highest yield in quality and success. If this is to be a success though decisions half to be made. Contrary to popular belief, everyone opinion. . . does not matter.
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  #17    
Old January 21st, 2013, 07:25 PM
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Not necesarily, they could vote and help decide. Also, we could use it as teaching tool for young hackers. We could asign them to write the basic scripts and then as we see them getting better and better, they get tougher and tougher assignments. If they don't like their jobs, we find someone else. Maybe, an experienced scripter is paired with a beginner. They work together and the younger (in terms of experience) can learn under the older one.

But then again, everyone could end up hating each other:). This could bring us all together or it could tear us apart. But if everyone is only in it to make a hack by everyone and nobody's in it just for their name in the credits, then we shouldn't have a problem.
This seems like an efficient way to go about the hack. It would not only increase productivity rates, but it would also increase the skill and give experience to many new or inexperienced hackers. I could see some ragequiting here and there, but otherwise it seems pretty efficient.

It's also a great way to include the entire community without hindering the project in the process.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 07:25 PM
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If we leave out new hackers then it would boil down to handful of all-stars working under the guise of a 'community'. That's not how it works.

I agree that there should be some sort of quality control and a system of hierarchy if something like this ever eventuates, and the idea of veterans helping out new members sounds incredibly enticing. It sort of reminds me of workshop threads in the past where people came together for the good of helping others through mentoring and problem solving. Regardless, in my opinion it should live up to both the name and standards of a community project.
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  #19    
Old January 21st, 2013, 07:42 PM
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Take advice from experience developers in other computer related fields and make the first goal as a community to create a revision control system, more commonly referred to as a VCS. Be it anything from Github to dropbox, it is very important for all those contributing to be regulated, monitored, and have a easy to see history of changes that contributors made.
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  #20    
Old January 21st, 2013, 07:47 PM
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And that is how it should be! Why would you want unskilled hackers working on the hack? That makes no sence, that is like a company hiring unskilled workers just because they live in the area.

I am just giving the outline for the highest yield in quality and success. If this is to be a success though decisions half to be made. Contrary to popular belief, everyone opinion. . . does not matter.
Because I don't just wanna sit there and watch it all happen. I'm a man of involving nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFuji View Post
If we leave out new hackers then it would boil down to handful of all-stars working under the guise of a 'community'. That's not how it works.

I agree that there should be some sort of quality control and a system of hierarchy if something like this ever eventuates, and the idea of veterans helping out new members sounds incredibly enticing. It sort of reminds me of workshop threads in the past where people came together for the good of helping others through mentoring and problem solving. Regardless, in my opinion it should live up to both the name and standards of a community project.
I agree, someone must dedicate their time to this project and not let it be just some side thing. Another fairly important detail that I'd like to add is story line. I suggest having a solid story line and a pseudo event line planned out. That way when people add to it, they won't just blindly be adding random events/event sequences that make no sense and everyone won't be making a "main" rival named after themselves.

Graphics such as tiles should be left out for the beginning since everyone's opinions differ. We should change that up later if people feel it's really taking away.

That being said, a nomination must be made for the "leader" of this project through a community vote out of a group of individuals who have volunteered for the job (or we can let Pokemon masters do it for coming up with the idea, though it's not original). Maybe at the end everyone who participated can have a nice shiny emblem and a mention in the credits for some incentive :D?
  #21    
Old January 21st, 2013, 07:50 PM
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If we leave out new hackers then it would boil down to handful of all-stars working under the guise of a 'community'. That's not how it works.

I agree that there should be some sort of quality control and a system of hierarchy if something like this ever eventuates, and the idea of veterans helping out new members sounds incredibly enticing. It sort of reminds me of workshop threads in the past where people came together for the good of helping others through mentoring and problem solving. Regardless, in my opinion it should live up to both the name and standards of a community project.
I agree. If we exclude those of lesser experience simply because of their inexperience then we can't well callit a "community" project, can we?

There can always include the aforementioned hackers in one way or another, be it as writers, assigning them to smaller scripts, mapping jobs, etc., or just as those who make and vote for decisions on various matters. Sure, quality is important, but if we lose sight of what the project set out to be in the first place, is there really any point in making it?


I feel that the idea of partnering/workshopping would really benefit the community as a whole, as well as to reduce the amount of required micro-management for the higher-ups.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:06 PM
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In a republic(like that of the u.s.) do you let everyone vote on every bill? No the majority just vote for the few to "represent them". This is a similar case, and I am sure you can find at least 20 qualified, willing hackers. That is if the project is represented in a professional way.
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  #23    
Old January 21st, 2013, 08:25 PM
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In a republic(like that of the u.s.) do you let everyone vote on every bill? No the majority just vote for the few to "represent them". This is a similar case, and I am sure you can find at least 20 qualified, willing hackers. That is if the project is represented in a professional way.
...But that's the government, and this is a community. The government is made up of those who are supposedly "qualified" to lead and make decisions for us (in most cases). However, a community is made up of people that aren't really qualified to do anything. A community is simply made up of those who reside together. Community Colleges don't require much in the way of education, that's why they have students with varying skill sets, grades, and IQs. Same with, say, a neighborhood. All that qualifies a neighborhood to be a community is that they have the money to live where they do...and that's it.

No one has to be qualified to make a hack, and no one should be turned away from helping out their community for any reason other than that they are not qualified to do higher level work (in which case, they should be suggested another job). That's the beauty of a community. It is in that variety that we make something that could not possibly be made with a small number of people. Communities aren't republican, they are democratic, and that is why they are effective: everyone in the community has a say. Sure, opinions may clash, but it is through such clashing that we can create and compromise, and as such, can make a hack truly representative of who we are as a community.
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Last edited by machomuu; January 21st, 2013 at 08:43 PM.
  #24    
Old January 21st, 2013, 08:50 PM
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I agree, someone must dedicate their time to this project and not let it be just some side thing. Another fairly important detail that I'd like to add is story line. I suggest having a solid story line and a pseudo event line planned out. That way when people add to it, they won't just blindly be adding random events/event sequences that make no sense and everyone won't be making a "main" rival named after themselves.

Graphics such as tiles should be left out for the beginning since everyone's opinions differ. We should change that up later if people feel it's really taking away.

That being said, a nomination must be made for the "leader" of this project through a community vote out of a group of individuals who have volunteered for the job (or we can let Pokemon masters do it for coming up with the idea, though it's not original). Maybe at the end everyone who participated can have a nice shiny emblem and a mention in the credits for some incentive :D?
A lot of those things could be taken care of if it gets off the ground under a decent leadership structure with planning and consultation. I think even now it would be too early to decide on the progression of what should be discussed first, second or third apart from the formation of a group of leaders.

Quote:
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I agree. If we exclude those of lesser experience simply because of their inexperience then we can't well callit a "community" project, can we?

There can always include the aforementioned hackers in one way or another, be it as writers, assigning them to smaller scripts, mapping jobs, etc., or just as those who make and vote for decisions on various matters. Sure, quality is important, but if we lose sight of what the project set out to be in the first place, is there really any point in making it?


I feel that the idea of partnering/workshopping would really benefit the community as a whole, as well as to reduce the amount of required micro-management for the higher-ups.
Yup, I feel that including a way to help newer hackers and help integrate them to the community would be really beneficial in the long-term. They might not have the skills starting out, but being in a team environment and remaining under the direction of a mentor-like figure would be very helpful for them to learn the ropes and maybe even contribute something of their own when its all said and done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NarutoActor View Post
In a republic(like that of the u.s.) do you let everyone vote on every bill? No the majority just vote for the few to "represent them". This is a similar case, and I am sure you can find at least 20 qualified, willing hackers. That is if the project is represented in a professional way.
American democracy is only one way to have a system of government and quite frankly, the notion that what works on a large-scale (A country of over 300 million people) would work on the small scale (~20 people) and vice-versa just doesn't seem to be correct. When you factor in the idea that everybody can talk to anybody on the internet as we are not restricted by distance (only sleep schedules) it makes less sense to restrict people from having a say when attempting to create a democracy. Here we're not limited by the enormous size and expense of a census that somewhere like America or even relatively smaller countries like Australia would have to shoulder if they wanted to get the ideas of the majority of their citizens, which is why they have representatives. At this size, a tribal system where there's a chief, specialists and volunteering workers each with a vote seems fine to me since ideas can be exchanged quickly, fluidly and there's still a sense of order.

If tribal democracy doesn't work then we could try a few other forms of governance: How about an Anarchic system where people can add an update of whatever they want, whenever they want with no checks or reasoning necessary. We could also have a Dictatorial system where if a member doesn't present their work in high enough quality within a time period they're banned exiled to Siberia. Or we could have a Theocratic system where we all pray to the great Masuda for guidance while our Holy Priest of VBA leads the parish to the promised hack. While I'm obviously joking with these examples, the fact is that there are many ways to create a group, so why not try to make it as inclusive as possible?
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Last edited by DrFuji; January 21st, 2013 at 09:07 PM.
  #25    
Old January 21st, 2013, 10:00 PM
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American democracy is only one way to have a system of government and quite frankly, the notion that what works on a large-scale (A country of over 300 million people) would work on the small scale (~20 people) and vice-versa just doesn't seem to be correct. When you factor in the idea that everybody can talk to anybody on the internet as we are not restricted by distance (only sleep schedules) it makes less sense to restrict people from having a say when attempting to create a democracy. Here we're not limited by the enormous size and expense of a census that somewhere like America or even relatively smaller countries like Australia would have to shoulder if they wanted to get the ideas of the majority of their citizens, which is why they have representatives. At this size, a tribal system where there's a chief, specialists and volunteering workers each with a vote seems fine to me since ideas can be exchanged quickly, fluidly and there's still a sense of order.
This.

But if we do decide on a Dictatorship, I shotgun the role of Dictator.

I suggest we allow anyone to suggest ideas, some sort of council who decides on which ideas should (if actually viable) be voted on, and then allow the masses to vote "yay" or "nay".

That said, I still don't like the idea of a community hack. Though, I suppose, if there is enough support I would work on it.
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