[Discussion] The one and only big fat thread about GUNS.

[twocows]

Originally Posted by GreatTornado

Why would you need a gun anyway? If someone was trying to kill you, you'd go to the police.

Yes, the person trying to mug me is going to let me walk to the police station before before proceeding with his attack.

[François]

Originally Posted by GreatTornado

Why would you need a gun anyway? If someone was trying to kill you, you'd go to the police. If you were hunting, you could spare the poor animal's life and go buy the same animal as food from a store or market. Unless an apocalyptic situation befalls humanity, there really isn't a reason for guns to even EXIST. What ever happened to "Make Love, Not War?"

I think they'd be quite useful if your house is robbed while you're there. I know I'd feel more comfortable having one in my home.

That said, the gun laws in the US are insane. It needs regulation and it baffles me to see so many people so passionately against the idea. The fact that assigning armed security guards to schools is seen as a viable alternative to restricting gun access is hilarious to me as an outsider, but were I a citizen of the US I'd be horrified at the country's attitude.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by François

I think they'd be quite useful if your house is robbed while you're there. I know I'd feel more comfortable having one in my home.

And as this case shows us, all 5 people survived because they had a gun in their house.

Right? No. They were all killed.

Just more proof that owning a gun doesn't make you safer.

They haven't said who owned what guns, and given that they found several at the house, the gun used to kill all of them could have easily belonged to one of the adults that was killed.

[Sweets Witch]

So much to say but I'm scatterbrained this evening so here.

>There were a TON of gun shows yesterday to speak out against the president and 99.9999% of the patrons didn't make the news because they were safe, responsible adults and they don't deserve to be rewarded with publicity for having common sense.
>There's no arguing that these were accidents.
>Some dude in Indiana shot himself in the hand in the parking lot of a gun show.
>This dude walked around with an unloaded AR-15 to show that guns are as dangerous as the people who hold them.
>Comparing guns to cars is downright laughable because cars are heavily regulated and breaking any number of those regulations results in a penalty. If you wanna regulate guns like cars then hell, let's do that.

[GreatTornado]

Originally Posted by twocows

Yes, the person trying to mug me is going to let me walk to the police station before before proceeding with his attack.

See, there's this thing called a "phone". What you do to use it is you pick up the handset and press the numbers "9-1-1" then the call button. Then you request the police and tell them what's happening and that you need help.

[François]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

And as this case shows us, all 5 people survived because they had a gun in their house.

Right? No. They were all killed.

Just more proof that owning a gun doesn't make you safer.

They haven't said who owned what guns, and given that they found several at the house, the gun used to kill all of them could have easily belonged to one of the adults that was killed.

Admittedly there are dangers to having guns in your house, but given random people coming into houses and using the residents' own guns to shoot them isn't super common, I'm not overly worried about it.

Originally Posted by GreatTornado

See, there's this thing called a "phone". What you do to use it is you pick up the handset and press the numbers "9-1-1" then the call button. Then you request the police and tell them what's happening and that you need help.

I think you're seriously overestimating how nicely the mugger is going to treat you. You think anyone would give you enough time to take out your phone, dial the number, tell the police you're being robbed AND where you are? I find that hard to imagine.

[GreatTornado]

Originally Posted by François

I think you're seriously overestimating how nicely the mugger is going to treat you. You think anyone would give you enough time to take out your phone, dial the number, tell the police you're being robbed AND where you are? I find that hard to imagine.

I think you didn't understand what my first post was about.

Originally Posted by GreatTornado

Why would you need a gun anyway? If someone was trying to kill you, you'd go to the police.

Nothing to do with mugging at all. If someone was trying to kill you, there'd be a very high chance that you'd know it was happening. Then you would go up to the police and say "Hey, someone's trying to kill me, I need help" (Well, not exactly like that, but you get the point) and from my understanding (I don't actually live in the united states, so correct me if I am wrong) you would be placed into a Witness Protection Program sort of thing.

[twocows]

Originally Posted by GreatTornado

See, there's this thing called a "phone". What you do to use it is you pick up the handset and press the numbers "9-1-1" then the call button. Then you request the police and tell them what's happening and that you need help.

Oh yeah, I'm sure he'll let me do that, too. While he's mugging me.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by twocows

Oh yeah, I'm sure he'll let me do that, too. While he's mugging me.

Their's also these things known as tasers and pepper spray.

These are defensive weapons. Weapons whose primary purpose is to defend.

Guns aren't defensive weapons. Their primary purpose is to kill. And killing isn't defensive, it's offensive.

[LilJz1234]

Showing these kind of stuffs could provoke the mentally ill people desperately searching for attention *_*

Just like what Mark David Chapman did to John Lennon. Once he shot him, he just stood there and wait for the police to come. Any normal person would of fled the scene right away after commiting the murder.

[François]

Originally Posted by GreatTornado

I think you didn't understand what my first post was about.

I don't believe I am misunderstanding you. I get your basic point, but you made it overly simplistic. You can't run to the police in every situation where someone is threatening you. Not that that means the only other option is to get a gun (as Mr. X pointed out), but I do believe there are situations where it's necessary to have some sort of weapon at your disposal.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by François

I don't believe I am misunderstanding you. I get your basic point, but you made it overly simplistic. You can't run to the police in every situation where someone is threatening you. Not that that means the only other option is to get a gun (as Mr. X pointed out), but I do believe there are situations where it's necessary to have some sort of weapon at your disposal.

Thats the thing, everyone has a sort of weapon at their disposal - their fists and feet. The only thing is that no one wants to put the effort into learning how to properly use them, and would rather go for the easy solution like a gun.

[twocows]

Originally Posted by Mr. X

There are also these things known as tasers and pepper spray.

These are defensive weapons. Weapons whose primary purpose is to defend.

Guns aren't defensive weapons. Their primary purpose is to kill. And killing isn't defensive, it's offensive.

I was told recently that tasers and pepper spray are illegal in a lot of places that aren't the US, which I find absurd. However, it's also hard to get a taser in the US. I do support making non-lethal weapons easier to obtain, I agree they're often a better choice.

However, note that firing a taser, which causes muscle contractions, at a mugger (probably tense and with poor trigger discipline, meaning they'll be clutching the trigger instead of the trigger shield like they should be) is probably not the best idea. I'm not sure about pepper spray, but it could potentially have the same effect. The force of a shot from certain kinds of guns, if it hits the right spot, can easily knock a person over, though.

[CarcharOdin]

This is probably the wrong thread to post this in but after reading both Mr. X and twocow's posts (the notion that killing can't be defensive and that tasers/pepper spray being illegal or hard to get a hold of), I question on whether I should even feel "safe" in our current world. Not because of increase in gun crime, but because there are so many laws being passed and people who spit in the face of self-defense that it seems virtually impossible to defend yourself, even in life or death situations, and not get slapped with the notion that you are the criminal, not the person who was threatening/attacking you.

Guns, tasers, knives, and pepper spray are all defensive weapons as far as I'm concerned and placing severe restrictions on any of them, no matter how lethal they are, make me feel unsafe. Killing in self-defense is defensive, even with guns, not the other way around. Of course, there are limits to self-defense; equal force must be met in equal measure. If someone is threatening you with a knive, a gun might be overkill, but if someone is threatening you with a gun and you have one of your own, what are you going to do...wait for him to fire first?

[Keiran777]

Originally Posted by twocows

Yes, the person trying to mug me is going to let me walk to the police station before before proceeding with his attack.

There are ways to deal with being mugged that don't involve shooting. In fact, it would probably be fairly difficult to pull out a gun in that situation.

I'm not sure if it's laziness or people just underestimate self defense/martial arts. Using guns solely to protect yourself is a crutch, and a very risky one (mostly for other innocent people) at that.

Do you think a school shooter would be very successful if the classroom he entered had a teacher or student that could go all Sandy Cheeks kara-tay on his trifling butt the moment they walked in?

Disarm and overpower, not shoot down.

[Yoshikkko]

You'd think the fact that America has had like 5 shootings lately would be an eye opener.

[François]

Originally Posted by Keiran777

There are ways to deal with being mugged that don't involve shooting. In fact, it would probably be fairly difficult to pull out a gun in that situation.

I'm not sure if it's laziness or people just underestimate self defense/martial arts. Using guns solely to protect yourself is a crutch, and a very risky one (mostly for other innocent people) at that.

Do you think a school shooter would be very successful if the classroom he entered had a teacher or student that could go all Sandy Cheeks kara-tay on his trifling butt the moment they walked in?

Disarm and overpower, not shoot down.

I agree with this post barring the bolded bit. Unless the teacher / student is standing right beside the door, I doubt they'd have enough time to run over to the shooter and disarm him before he fired. Unless he was exceptionally hesitant or got very close to his victims before firing, I don't think martial arts training is a viable solution to a gun shooting.

[Scarf]

Originally Posted by Yoshikkko

You'd think the fact that America has had like 5 shootings lately would be an eye opener.

You'd think that over 1000 gun deaths since the Sandy Hook massacre would be an eye opener, too, but it isn't.

There's something wrong with our collective American consciousness.

[Mr. X]

A Georgia man is accused of killing a man whose GPS system mistakenly led him to the wrong house.

Phillip Walker Sailors, a 69-year-old resident of Lilburn, Ga., was arrested and charged with murder for the death of Rodrigo Abad Diaz, a 22-year-old Cuban immigrant, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports.

Passengers in Diaz's car say they were on their way to pick up a girl to go ice skating around 10 p.m. when their GPS led them to the wrong address, according to Fox 5. As they waited in the driveway, the owner came out with a gun. He fired two shots: one in the air and one that killed Diaz.

Sailors' lawyer says his client feared for his life.

“He is very distraught over the loss of life from the defense of his home," he told WSB-TV. "This incident happened late in the evening hours when he was home with his wife and he assumed it was a home invasion and he maintains his innocence."

Sailors, a war veteran and former missionary with no known criminal history, is currently being held without bond on charges of malice murder, according to the station.

This is not the first time an armed homeowner has been charged with murder.

In November, Minnesota resident Byron David Smith allegedly shot and killed two unarmed teenagers, whom he reportedly found in his house on Thanksgiving Day. The teenage cousins, ages 18 and 17, were said to be in the midst of a break-in when Smith allegedly shot them multiple times with his Mini 14 rifle and 22-caliber revolver.

According to authorities, Smith admitted to firing "more shots than I needed to" and reportedly was proud of "a good clean finishing shot" that killed one teen, the Associated Press reports. He was charged with two counts of second-degree murder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2574273.html

He murders a person for entering the driveway.

The person doesn't get out, just waits. And this person runs out and kills him, for no justifiable reason.

He claims he feared for his life... but what threat did this person pose, just sitting in his car? No threat.

He is a prime example on why more mental screenings are needed before being allowed to purchase/own a gun.

[droomph]

No, person below me, just somebody dumb.

please don't go on a gun debate, pretty please…this has nothing to do with it. It's more of somebody being dumb, that resulted in somebody dying.

…oh fine troll away

[Elendil]

No words can be said about the horrors of this. I have no problem with gun possession, having lived out of the US for quite some time now I have no idea what exactly is going on there for all this sudden drama to be appearing, but the dam is slowly breaking I fear. Entitlement to heavy weaponry is never a good sign, even if its for collective reasons, simply cause cases like this will appear more often. Once you give the people entitlement for owning something like this, shotgun's for hunting are okay but still, the looming danger for entitlement of usage slowly creeps closer as well. As I said, I'm not entirely sure what's going on, history surely hasn't provided such an example to go by, but pure logic dictates as I said that entitlement for ownership surely leads to entitlement for usage, and in this case it can only go horribly, horribly wrong.

[TRIFORCE89]

What.the.hell.

Well, I'm never going to Georgia then. I turn into people's driveways to turn around or check something all the time.

At first I thought this must be a racial reaction. But I don't know if he could see into their car in the darkness of 10-o'clock at night and tell they were Cuban.

Why can't people call 911 if they're concerned?

[Virtual Chatot]

Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89

Why can't people call 911 if they're concerned?

911 response times are absolutely horrible and can sometimes take a half-hour for police to arrive on scene, especially in rural areas.

I'm not going to make a judgement until more facts are known here.

[Scarf]

Someone simply parking in his driveway made him "fear for his life." He's either lying (and a cold blooded killer) or not mentally capable of responsible gun ownership.

And therein lies the biggest problem with the suggestion that we have better mental health services and screenings for gun ownership: what do you do with people who already own guns? Do you require every owner to come in for a mental health screening? If we don't then we're leaving potential dangers out there. And what if they do come in and they don't pass, do you take their guns away and then inflame all the Charlton Hestons out there, or do you leave the guns in their incapable hands? And, on top of these problems, how do you pay for mental health service for this when just getting regular healthcare is next to impossible?

Yeah, have mental health services to help keep the wrong people from having guns, but that's only one small piece of the puzzle.

[Renpuu]

One thousand gun deaths is surprisingly low to the vast amount of other killer diseases and other factors such as suicide. Suicide is higher than murder in the US.
Most of the gun violence is due to gang violence.
These special "shootings" are only a small blip in society compared to the vast amount of other problems facing the world.
If a teenager shoots his family or another person's family, who bought the gun and where was it kept ?
If it was in a secure location such as a key-padded security cabinet where only the parents had access to and essentially the teenager had bought a weapon himself or stolen it from someone else and then used it on the victims, then that's different.
What if the gun was IN the house, just lying around and he knew this family owned a gun and it was kept it "so and so" place just in case of a "burglar attack." Got pissed off at them and then decided to go "ape sh**" and shot them dead. Then it was the family's fault for keeping a gun in the house.
Weapons cannot be used defensively if they have the sole nature of seriously harming someone. In england, if you're found with a knife on you (because apparently a knife is meant to keep you safe) then you'll get a prison sentence just for having one on you.
If Americans were smart enough to say "Okay, maybe we DO have the right to bear arms..but maybe only particular people should ?"
Americans want to have their guns and rifles because it gives them a false sense of security. If a team of robbers actually wanted to invade your house and steal everything then they should be smart enough to either do it when you're not at home OR when you're fast asleep and just have superior numbers that can overwhelm you from EVER getting to your rifle or pistol.
In a shooting situation, it is chaos and people will just panic and get out. Nobody needs to carry a gun at school or the cinema or the shopping center. If normal everyday people want to go around killing people, then maybe Americans should agree that guns are NOT good for society and they should not be legal.