Community Hack [Pre-production]

[karatekid552]

Originally Posted by FBI agent

Too many strike through tags. I know it's not easy to write longs scripts the first time, but I'm saying that length =/= quality i.e:
Move player
move some dude
move camera
move player again
open a door
move more people
battle
move again
move more

Shows the same as
move x
battle
battlee goes through a door

You see what I mean?

Since this involves me, I guess I can comment. We both know that tajaros knows how to script, and a 600 line script, even if it is the same thing over and over, does show skill, because how you organize it is key also. You need to be able to manage long scripts, or else you are screwed if you need to do something big.

While versatility with commands is good, new commands are fairly easy to learn. It's being given a task and finding a way to do it that actually shows the skill of a scripter. Not how many commands he/she knows how to use.

And yes, I do have mad copy and paste skills to make that 2311 line script to set 2000+ flags in under 10 min, haha!

Edit: I also can't wait for this project to get off the ground. I will definitely be a scripter, but I don't have enough time for being a head scripter, which is mostly why I didn't apply.

[FBI agent]

Originally Posted by karatekid552

We both know that tajaros knows how to script

Not too sure how I would know this, but OK.

While versatility with commands is good, new commands are fairly easy to learn. It's being given a task and finding a way to do it that actually shows the skill of a scripter. Not how many commands he/she knows how to use.

I agree, # of commands don't show anything real. I just want to see efficient scripting of things that aren't face roll level easy.

Key things to look for in a scripter usually include:

Knowledge of scripting commands -- otherwise you wouldn't know what to do in certain situations.
Knowing how to apply these scripting commands -- Well, this is obvious.
Good grammar and spelling -- Doesn't need to be L33T PROF LVL, but it needs to be fairly good

That's what I look for admittedly.

[machomuu]

Originally Posted by FBI agent

I have a similar opinion to milksy91's about the Story Development. That being said, a detailed story of everything does not mean the whole story can be portrayed in the hack. You should leave the player to enjoy some of the game play aside from story as well. By this I mean there should not be a major script every map. You should limit important events to only what is needed to allow the story to proceed while showing character development. Finding that balance between story line and game play is really key for this role.

There are a plethora of ways to include the story into gameplay, such as sidequests, minor characters, books and objects, and other non-main quest facets. The story does not strictly have to be "what you have to do to move on", there are non-intrusive ways of including the story in otherwise trivial and non-mandatory elements.

[FBI agent]

Originally Posted by machomuu

There are a plethora of ways to include the story into gameplay, such as sidequests, minor characters, books and objects, and other non-main quest facets. The story does not strictly have to be "what you have to do to move on", there are non-intrusive ways of including the story in otherwise trivial and non-mandatory elements.

I see what you mean, it's sort of the "if you repeat a ridiculous lie long enough people will believe it" concept. I'm trying to point out that you shouldn't sabotage gameplay for the sake of notifying the player of menial details within the story. Not to say that you will do that, but you should be careful as to not let something like that happen.
If you can keep that balance while still incorporating a quality story, then good! :)

[Bela]

I feel like I need to respond to this.

Originally Posted by miksy91

Hopefully this thread doesn't get spam in it and I sure don't want to be the one "awoking" that but I just wanted to say that I'd like to see machomuu being the one to take over the storyline and events planning.

I have nothing against Bela, at all. And I haven't even played Rose to see for myself how good the storyline and planning really is in it;

But just look at what machomuu would offer the hack;

This thing here pretty much covers everything a hack should be like (well, expect for epic plot twist) ! Every storyline-related NPC should bring something to the game itself. They can't be just random people, they must have their own personality, like every human do. Think about the "bad guys" for instance; they can't be just "evil and so wanting to take over the world". If the bad guys really want to do that, they must gain something out of it! Like search for a certain artifact... pretty much everything you can imagine they could be doing which actually makes sense!

And if you want to pull off something even better, they can turn good people out all of a sudden. If the leader behind the evil organization leaves or is defeated, what makes his minions continue their mission anymore? Loyalty? Might work somewhere but if you think about them as their own persons, not a single one of them is actually interested in taking over the world. If they get no money out of the deal after the leader went, why would the continue?

All in all, storyline and planning is the game. Besides, the hack shouldn't be rushed getting started right away after forming the team. A well-planned storyline along with plot twists and the areas they occur should be planned out first. Of course everything can be changed later on but stuff gets way easier if done properly right from the start.

It's curious how you make this comparative analysis but admit that it has incomplete information. Why not create a better informed analysis? Unless, of course, your objective is something else. I guess while we're lifting things from my thread, and not a single somewhat jokingly written line, here's the introduction to the story you can find in my thread:

Spoiler:

The Centiq (/sĕn-tēk/) region is a place rich in history. Understanding that history is important for understanding its future. Your journey as a young trainer will take you from the depths of dungeons to the tips of mountains, from the happiest of places, to the dark hideouts of evil. Enjoy the experience of exploring new routes, cities, and caves in Pokémon Rose Version!

A year has passed since a young Pokémon trainer from Kanto defeated Team Rocket and became Kanto's Pokémon League Champion; likewise in the Hoenn region, a young trainer there put an end to Team Aqua and Team Magma's plans and defeated Hoenn's Pokémon League Champion.

Why have Teams Rocket, Aqua, and Magma shown up in the Centiq region? What is the organization known as Thrasher and what is their goal? Could it have something to do with The Emerald Tablet, a mythical artifact believed to be hidden within the Centiq region? The answers to these questions and more await you!

And here's a summary of the beginning story I wrote:

Spoiler:

The Centiq region is a region rich in history and complex affairs. Plagued by various evils, a great Creator was once said to have bestowed upon Hermes Trismegistus an artifact known as the Emerald Tablet, said to contain both sacred knowledge of the world and a great power. This legendary tablet has been sought by many over the course of Centiq’s history, but it has never been found...

Aster is a 15 year old boy living in Springate Town, a small quiet village on the southern seashore of Centiq. Professor Larch has returned from a trip far away, where he spoke with one of his colleagues. He has brought back some special Pokemon and might just give one of those to you! Aster leaves his house after talking to Mom and heads for Professor Larch’s laboratory.

But before he gets far, Aster sees a strange man speaking with the professor outside! Hurrying over, Aster sees a tall, blue haired man in a black cloak. What does he want with the Professor?

“Tell me everything you know regarding The Emerald Tablet!” the man shouts. Clearly he is not a friendly person! Running to the Professor’s aid, Aster is given three Pokemon by Larch in order to fight the mysterious hostile man. Defeating his Shelgon, Pupitar, and Metang, Aster succeeds in protecting the professor from further harm. Seemingly indifferent to his loss, the strange man simply states, “We shall meet again, Professor Larch,” before taking his leave. As he does so, a large blue cross is seen on the back of his cloak. Who was this strange person?

The Professor thanks Aster and offers him one of the Pokemon he received from his colleague while traveling abroad. Aster’s long-time childhood friend, Allen, had been waiting inside the Lab during the ordeal outside. The two have their first Pokemon battle, now that they both have their very first Pokemon. Allen and Aster decide to compete to see who can get to the Pokemon League first, with Allen taking the lead.

Will you make it to the Pokemon League before Allen, Aster?

After running an errand for Professor Larch, Aster arrives at his first new destination: Elderoak Town! This small forest village has a large retirement community, as well as a school taught by the town’s elder, simply known as “Granny” to everyone. Unaware of Granny’s temperament, Aster casually walks inside to find out more about Pokemon, taking a seat at an empty chair in the schoolroom.

“Is everybody here? Well then, let’s get started!” declares Granny. Aster, realizing a mistake has been made, tries to sneak out of the classroom before he’s noticed. He doesn’t know about Granny’s adept hearing, sounding the pitter-patter of feet.

“Stay in your seat!” the little old lady exclaims at Aster, who in a shock immediately complies. He has been mistaken for one of her students! Granny begins to play a video for the students, designed to teach them how to catch Pokemon. Aster, having already known long ago how to do this and has seen Professor Larch do it many times, tries to take advantage of the situation and leave once more.

“You again!” Granny bellows. This time she begins to walk over to you! “Do you think you know it all?” she asks inquisitively. “How about I give you a test in a Pokemon battle?” Quickly, the teacher sends out a Spearow with a menacing look, certainly used to giving that look as if it were to intimidate small misbehaving children.

But Aster has his own Pokemon, too! Sending out the Pokemon you received from Professor Larch, you quickly dispense of the sparrow Pokemon, apparently only good at using its Leer attack to frighten Pokemon and students alike. Granny comes to the realization that you are not, in fact, one of her students. Just then, the teacher’s son, a grown man himself, walks in with a small boy under his arm. Evidently this was the missing student whose chair you had sat in.

“I saw a big yellow Pokemon run past here!” the boy shouted. Clearly he was troubled by something he saw outside. It could have been the reason he skipped class. What was this big, yellow Pokemon he spoke of? What kind of big, yellow Pokemon are capable of running around in the Centiq region? Could it have been the crystal beast...Raikou?

Thinking nothing of it now, Aster continues on his journey so he can face his first gym battle in Bloomful City. To get there, however, Aster must travel across a field full of grass Pokemon. This shouldn’t be much of a problem, since Aster’s Pokemon is much stronger than most of the grass Pokemon around.

After battling a few trainers on his way to the next town, Aster is soon approaching the end of the grassy field. With only a little way left to go, and the buildings of Bloomful near on the horizon, Aster is swiftly met with a shocking site.

“Finally we have caught up with you, Raikou,” stated a man dressed all in black, with a large red “R” on the front of his outfit. Two more men in a similar outfit are standing next to a big, yellow Pokemon that has become immobilized by traps that have been dug into the ground. “It appears the snares we set have done their job!” The crystal beast growled in anguish. “You will now become a prize for Team Rocket!” shouted the man, throwing a purple and pink Pokeball at the legendary creature. The Pokemon is instantly caught without any resistance. Was that a Master Ball that they just used? One of the two men who were standing next to the legendary Pokemon retrieves the Pokeball and stores it away. “Our client will be pleased that everything has taken place without incident,” the man who threw the Pokeball muses.

Aster approaches the three men, who have recognized that they are being watched. “Hey, you there kid! You didn’t see anything, did you? Well, I’ll have to take care of that!” the man who threw the Pokeball shouts. Sending out a Zubat, the Team Rocket grunt is poised to take you on, while his fellow grunts have escaped. Aster sends out his Pokemon and defeats the flying bat Pokemon! The Rocket grunt is distraught that a mere child could be capable of beating him. “You better stay out of our business!” he shouts at Aster. “And our client’s as well!” Who would Team Rocket’s client be?

Unbeknownst to Aster, and indeed much of the Centiq region, a mysterious organization named Thrasher is secretly working to collect many powerful legendary Pokemon, as well as be the first to have ever found the legendary Emerald Tablet. But for what purpose? Who is their Leader? Could it be the strange man in blue, who demanded that the good professor tell him about the Tablet? Their goals, their influence, their leadership, their very existence… all things about Thrasher are shrouded in secrecy.

My interests in crafting a story starts with building a world for the plot to take place in. As such, when I first started work on Rose, I had ideas for both a region and for events in the story I wanted to have play out. This was fleshed out with a design for the region the story takes place in, and building scenarios which take place there. Here's the map for my region to give you a sense of how much thought I've put into this:

Spoiler:

There's a lot I could tell you about this region. I spent a lot of time developing a story before I ever started working on the rom hack. You've ignored everything I've posted above in pursuit of something to misrepresent my work. Now why would you do that?

Originally Posted by miksy in the Second Hack of the Quarter - 2012 thread

And I just realized something neat related to the main post. What we actually are voting for isn't defined anywhere. It's just "Hack of the Quarter" competition. What does a hack being "Hack of the Quarter" mean? Is it the hack with the most entertaining gameplay? The best storyline, or something else? For now, it's pretty much the one most popular and graphically appealing.

For the following competitions, I'd recommend making it clearer what you're actually voting for. Also if you take a look at the screenshots of the main post, they're already leading people to vote for Rose! Some of the voters may not play any of the games yet they still vote in the competition. The screenshots taken of Rose Version greatly divide it from the rest, and nicest graphical work is the case here as well.

What could be done is to not show screenshots of any of the eligible hacks to vote for, or possibly show a little bit but try to place them at the "same level" from the start. That way, the voters would actually have to think for a little while instead of just pushing the "vote for this hack" button there and submit their opinion. This would also lead into the actual players have a bigger meaning in the competition, good implementation beats nice graphics anytime, anywhere.

What I particularly like about this quote here is it shows the hypocrisy with what you're doing. You suggested we should let people evaluate those hacks on their own, because you felt some were being unfairly represented. I think it can be agreed here that you're doing exactly that now.

And so your bias is made clear. I wouldn't have gone out of my way to write all this if I didn't feel like what you're doing is intentional. Your suggestion that I lack background when you've clearly read my thread is incredibly dishonest. Don't misrepresent my work to pursue some agenda of yours. If anything, I think you've hurt your objective with this.

If you want to talk about what direction the story should go, that's a conversation I would love to have when everyone interested in developing the story gets together.

Originally Posted by machomuu

There are a plethora of ways to include the story into gameplay, such as sidequests, minor characters, books and objects, and other non-main quest facets. The story does not strictly have to be "what you have to do to move on", there are non-intrusive ways of including the story in otherwise trivial and non-mandatory elements.

I agree that newspapers and written notes are a really effective way to give more story-related details to the player. It's easy to tuck away these extra details in places. I think it's nice to reward those players who do extra exploring and go off the beaten path though, and that could make for some nice side quests.

I look forward to working with you machomuu and everyone else on this project.

[Darthatron]

While we're still waiting for everyone to get their applications in, let's take some time to vote on, what I feel, are some key issues:

Do we want to include Fakemon?
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?

Please give a yes or no response and some justification as to why you feel that way. If you can't think of something logical, a simple yes or no will suffice.

Here's my input:

Spoiler:

Do we want to include Fakemon?
No. I think that, as this is a hack made to represent PokeCommunity, we should stick to legitimate Pokemon and not create any as this may tarnish the final outcome.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes. I think including all Pokemon currently in the official games will allow us to appeal to a broader demographic.

[ForeverDash]

Do we want to include Fakemon?
No. I don't think many people will like Fakemons in a hack. But if we do decide to put it, it must be really good.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes. Many people will play this hack if there are 4th and 5th gen Pokemon.

[Fireworks]

Yes and yes.

I think as a community we can come up with some pretty cool Fakemon, making it feel more like a Pokecommunity hack, as it would contain Fakemon designed by the community.

[Bela]

Do we want to include Fakemon?
No. This would probably take up too much time and not be very appealing to people.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes. I think including these Pokemon would be more appealing to people. It adds some diversity that may otherwise be missing. It also gives us a larger pool of strong Pokemon to choose from for opponents.

[miksy91]

Originally Posted by Bela

Message

I apologize for sounding rude because that was no way what I was meaning to be like.
Currently, I've to get going elsewhere and so don't have time to but I'll be replying to you with PM later today.

[DrFuji]

Do we want to include Fakemon?
I would wait to see the calibre of the Head of Graphics and any people immediately under them before sticking a solid answer on this. If they are up to the task and feel like they can do a good job then by all means. I know there is more than just graphics when it comes to fakemon as there are movesets and stats etc but you can't have them without an artist.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes, including some of them will give us more freedom to do things.

[tajaros]

Originally Posted by FBI agent

Not too sure how I would know this, but OK.


I agree, # of commands don't show anything real. I just want to see efficient scripting of things that aren't face roll level easy.

Key things to look for in a scripter usually include:

Knowledge of scripting commands -- otherwise you wouldn't know what to do in certain situations.
Knowing how to apply these scripting commands -- Well, this is obvious.
Good grammar and spelling -- Doesn't need to be L33T PROF LVL, but it needs to be fairly good

That's what I look for admittedly.

And what do I miss from this?

____________________________________________________

Do we want to include Fakemon?
No way it would be painstaking work for the spriters.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes, since more players would be attracted if we were to add IV/V gen Pokemon.

[Anbuja's_BlooDY]

Do we want to include Fakemon?
No clue, at the beginning i always liked fakemons in a hack, now I just think fakemons are just uninteresting :<
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Off course we should, some people play hacks just to get a certain pokemon.

[SNOR(es)LAX]

If there's a Community hack, I would love to have it without Fakemon, and please include Gen IV and V Pokemon. And can we add some characters in the game which are actual people that are notable in PC? That would be awesome.

A post from a person who has never really posted in the Emulation forums. I might give this hack a go once its completed. And not applying for anything here, I am just here to give my stand.

[FBI agent]

Originally Posted by DrFuji

Do we want to include Fakemon?
I would wait to see the calibre of the Head of Graphics and any people immediately under them before sticking a solid answer on this. If they are up to the task and feel like they can do a good job then by all means. I know there is more than just graphics when it comes to fakemon as there are movesets and stats etc but you can't have them without an artist.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes, including some of them will give us more freedom to do things.

This man doesn't say anything stupid. I agree with him. Also when we say fakemon how much are we talking about? A full dex? A dozen or so? If it's full dex, then it'll take too long. Atleast from what I see, games with full dex Fakemon, take a long time to get rolling (outside of some rushed sprite ones I haven't seen a hack completed with a full fakemon region). Getting all these unique concepts ready and sprited (back sprites and all) is not really easy.

[Jambo51]

IMO, it's pretty much one or the other. You can't really have a bunch of fakemon mixed in with legit Pokémon unless it's a full generation's worth.

Should the hack include fakemon?

No.

Should the hack have new Pokémon?

This is a more complicated question than it first appears. What generation of games will this be based on? (Presumably 3 based on the language used above.)

How are you going to add them?
Do you want to include formes?

Anyway, as long as the effective number of species actually available in the game doesn't top about 200 or so, then having the new Pokémon is no bad idea.

Which is where I come in. The 649 patch is all but ready to be extensively tested, and could be used as a base for this. Of course, that would mean basing the community hack on FireRed, which limits some of your options.

Whatever way you choose, I am willing to share whatever code you desire, with one exception. I won't share forme code.

Note: I do not want a position on the team, I won't have time to be able to effectively help. Besides which, between Darthatron and Shiny Quagsire, I think you're good for ASM hackers!

[Kimarah]

Hi again guys!

I'm really glad to see that this project is starting to get underway. When I read about it in the first poll it seemed like a great idea to make a community hack, if it was done well, and I can't wait to see some of the initial results.

Even though I don't really have the time to add much to the game itself I would like to give my opinions on fakemon and generations in the game.

Should the hack include fakemon?
I believe if fakemon are done well they can be interesting and add a very custom/personal touch to a hack, but if there is a large group of people working on one project continuity could be an issue. I think the huge diversity of pokemon available nowadays means you aren't going to lose anything by choosing not to add fakes. As an alternative to making fake pokemon why not add special side quests or challenges to complete to unlock or spawn some of the more popular pokemon? Adds some diversity other than having to add fakes.

Should the hack have new Pokémon?

I don't see any reason why not. You can only reduce your player base by shortening the list of pokemon you can aquire in game.

Anyway, just some of my opinions. I can't wait to see more!

Maybe when the time comes I can do some art for you guys. When you need it my schedule may be more open! I'm a professional game concept designer, so my skills lay more with rendering and sketching characters/environments than sprite work.

-Kima

[hinkage]

Why are the two people who haven't offered to help (and tajaros) the only ones arguing tho? FBI and Karatekid, calm your buttcheeks.

Taj, your script is good, but it's not a penis, so size doesn't matter. Your grammar/puncuation is kind of crap, but it's good enough to revise easily. But, really you guys? Fighting about a SCRIPT? What a retarded argument, seriously.


Do we want to include Fakemon?
No.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes.

[FBI agent]

Originally Posted by hinkage

Why are the two people who haven't offered to help (and tajaros) the only ones arguing tho? FBI and Karatekid, calm your buttcheeks.

No one is fighting, we are having a friendly heated conversation, thanks.

Taj, your script is good, but it's not a penis, so size doesn't matter.

LMAO.

I forgot to mention that the setting of the story kinda depicts whether or not we will/should have fakemon. I mean if you're basing this off some area in Kanto, Fakemon make little sense.

[Jim Boob]

Originally Posted by Darthatron

While we're still waiting for everyone to get their applications in, let's take some time to vote on, what I feel, are some key issues:

Do we want to include Fakemon?
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
.

Do we want to include Fakemon?
No, I go out of my way to avoid hacks with fakemon as on a personal level I do not enjoy them as much.

Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
As long as there is a very large world map or multiple regions.

[atif]

I really want this! ^^

Position (multiple if necessary):Head of Mapping

Proof of Ability (if applicable): I worked on Furious Flames. I did the maps for Hoenn. Go check them out and that'll be my proof of ability! ^^

Comments (if applicable): I really want this! ^^ This looks awesome, I really want to be part!

Do we want to include Fakemon?
Not really. It would be a pain to sprite them.

Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yeah, that would be okay. It would make the hack more creative and fun...!

[tajaros]

Originally Posted by hinkage

Why are the two people who haven't offered to help (and tajaros) the only ones arguing tho? FBI and Karatekid, calm your buttcheeks.

Taj, your script is good, but it's not a penis, so size doesn't matter. Your grammar/puncuation is kind of crap, but it's good enough to revise easily. But, really you guys? Fighting about a SCRIPT? What a retarded argument, seriously.


Do we want to include Fakemon?
No.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes.

As FBI said we're not fighting :P

Yeah it's not a penis but I like it. Haha... xD

[shiny quagsire]

Do we want to include Fakemon?
Yes, but only if they are very very very very well designed. They must blend properly with the other pokemon, or it's just awkward. Having fakemon with Jambo51's 649 patch would be cool, and is very well possible.

Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes, but I'd also like to keep the original Pokemon as well. Whenever I see hacks with Gen IV/V pokemon, I can't help but think what pokemon I can't use anymore, which may be a pokemon I really like.

Using Jambo51's 649 patch would be awesome, and he seems willing to contribute his patch and/or source code into this hack (minus the forme changes for whatever reason, but whatever). However, if we do that, we're either going to have to:

A: Get Lu-Ho to support the extended Pokemon from Gens IV and V in A-Map (and Jambo51's D/N patch while he's at it. ). I don't think that would be too hard to add.
B: Get Lu-Ho to release the source code so we can add it ourselves, which is unlikely, but would be great for adding new discoveries and features from the ASM hacking scene.
C: Make a new map editor that supports it, which would take too long. I believe ZodiacDaGreat was working on one though...
D: Hex edit in the values ourselves, which is no fun.

Hopefully someone can contact Lu-Ho and get either A or B through, or ZodiacDaGreat for C. Still, since we have enough backers on this hack, perhaps it won't be too difficult to persuade Lu-Ho to add these features, provided he is checking his e-mail/PC account.

[kj3400]

Do we want to include Fakemon?
Nope. I barely know all 649 real pokèmon as it is XD

Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
If we can get them in the game, why not?

[karatekid552]

Originally Posted by hinkage

Why are the two people who haven't offered to help (and tajaros) the only ones arguing tho? FBI and Karatekid, calm your buttcheeks.

Taj, your script is good, but it's not a penis, so size doesn't matter. Your grammar/puncuation is kind of crap, but it's good enough to revise easily. But, really you guys? Fighting about a SCRIPT? What a retarded argument, seriously.


Do we want to include Fakemon?
No.
Do we want to include Gen IV/V Pokemon?
Yes.

Waoh, now that I am reading this again, I said specifically that I wanted to be a scripter, but I didn't have enough time to make it worth while to apply for head scripter. I also only had one post just to give my opinion on how a scripter should be judged.



Should we include fakemon-
No, unless they are something extraordinarily good and can blend in easily with the others.

Should we include new Pokemon-
Yes. Especially the new evolutions to old Pokemon. We have a man willing to share his hack to enable us to use all of them, so why not? We have good sprites for all of Gen IV and Gen V is getting ever closer to completion courtesy of Chaos Rush's sprite resource, so we could definitely use them.



As I have already said several times, I can't wait to start working on this project. We just need a good solid foundation to build off of.