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Pokémon X & Pokémon Y The Kalos region awaits! Explore a new world, capture new Pokémon, and fight off Team Flare in the newest installment of the core Pokémon series.

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  #1    
Old February 26th, 2013, 05:00 PM
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After playing the pokemon games I find myself looking more at the pokemon's stats we currently have 6 stats that define certain pokemon these are HP (Hit Points), Attack, Defence, Special Attack, Special Defence and Speed. When I was looking at certain pokemon's stats I feel that more stats might make the game a little bit more fun and would make it a little more technically for older generations while keep it simple enough for younger audiences.

The main stat I keep feeling needs to be introduced is Endurance, even though people would argue that HP is a pokemons endurance I feel this is 100% true when you watch the anime you see a first stage pokemon being able to outlast third stage pokemon because it has more endurance to its own weakness's, obviously adding an endurance stat would kind of ruin the aspect of a pokemon being weak to a type as it could just have a max endurance stat and be able to tank anything, however certain "BIG BUILD" pokemon such as Snorlax even though it only fins it's self with one weakness it is still pretty weak to any type of move but if you watch the anime Ash's Snorlax managers to take many fighting type moves and still come out unscathed. Obviously I am not saying every pokemon gets the same endurance of course certain pokemon would be able to have more of an endurance than others and they way in which you train the endurance would be determined how much a pokemon is attacked and how much health it losers throughout it's time with a player.

Another stat which is already in the pokemon game is evasiveness, however I don't think it's given enough recognition than the other stats because evasiveness is should be a key thing in pokemon, fast pokemon like Weavile and most bird pokemon should be able to avoid slower pokemon Like Slowking and Snorlax more often because they can out speed there attacks. Again I am not saying having a pokemon that can avoid every single hit a slower pokemon deals but has like a 1 in 4 chance to avade the attack if it has a 100 Evasiveness stat. I know alot of people would dislike this stat but I feel just like endurance it would make online battling alot more fun as trainers would have to mix and match teams in order to cover there evasive and endurance problems. People will argue that you mix and match in the current battling system but when I find myself WiFi battling or on Pokemon Online I always end up facing the same team 15 times in a row because they are OP in some way or they have a set up which can beat anything because of how there stats are set out.

Additional stats is something I have debated about with and against many people because it's quite a big subject, whether or the not the 6 stats there already are is enough or whether more stats would help with competitive battling and make the game have a better and realistic feel to it. Some people will say that if they add more stats the game could become too much like the anime but in my opinion what would be wrong with that? even the introduction of counter shields would be something to consider however I will touch on that in another post as this one is solely about stats.

The final stat that I wish to discuss is Adrenaline, we have moves at the moment like Anger Point where when your pokemon gets hit with a Critical hit it's attack is raised by 12 however I don't feel this is enough? You do have the generic Overgrow, Torrent and Blaze however I feel abilities should be more obvious the player, such as when blaze is activated a pokemon that protrudes fire such as Infernape should have the fire double in size or become more aggressive in movement. Going back to the actual adrenaline stat, Maybe it should be more of an ability but I feel if a pokemon gets down to a certain health than depending on it's adrenaline stat it has an increase in speed or attack or it hits first or hits harder but something which is similar to a last ditch attempt at overcoming an enemy!

Thank you for reading! Please do read it all before leaving a comment below and you might mistake certain parts and right something completely wrong to the subject! Again thanks and I look forwars to the comments!
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  #2    
Old February 26th, 2013, 05:19 PM
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OH GOD NO NOT EVASIVENESS(no offense) that is the worst stat to ever have been included ever. Reasoning follows bellow:

I know you've stated that hey, it's not necessary to have a Pokemon evade every single attack. But the problem with that is...well, weavile would be able to evade slower Pokemon like Slowbro, but taking in your previous stat into consideration(endurance), then that would make the likes of Slowbro/Slowking literally untouchable. Think about it, unless Weavile uses Night Slash, it cant make a damn dent in those two Pokemon, and they wouldn't even have to use speed to crush Weavile, they could just use a move like I dunno, Surf to KO it really. I'd say it's pretty damn hard to dodge a tital wave coming for you, but that's just me. XD

But really, i think that the stats that we have now are balanced enough as it is. you'd have sturdy Pokemon being literally untouchable by your standard neutral moves, since they have ridiculous endurance, and then you would have the Pokemon would high evasiveness being untouched by moves that require physical contact, so I do think that it'll be quite a bit unfair, and it'll definitely make competitive battling more of a struggle than it is. For example, you have a Pokemon like....Staraptor, right? Alright, we'll take Staraptor as an example. It's a pretty fast Pokemon, let's give it a good level of evasiveness.

And then let's try it's opponent. Luxray for good measure. Of course, taken into account that Luxray is a slower Pokemon than Staraptor, it's a bit of a problem. Not only this, but if you're applying that logic, then Luxray can't really touch Staraptor much, because Staraptor is a bird, and it can outspeed pretty much just about every single move that Luxray could do it, bar thunder/thunderbolt, and Lux is more of a physical attacker anyway, so it already has a disadvantage from the start.

Ultimately, I feel that I wouldn't be very comfortable with these changes because it would give certian Pokemon a -huge- boost while it would just bump down so many other Pokemon, making them have some sort of unfair disadvantage against those who have higher speed, and those who have higher speed having an unfair disadvantage against those who have extremely high endurance. It'll just really make things a lot more complicated than it should be, which is how things shouldn't be, especially when you consider that kids play these games, and the last thing that we need is for them to be throwing their 3DS' at the wall because (insert 6th gen pokemon here) has higher speed and, by mere luck, keeps dodging the opposing Pokemon's attacks. Even if it's 1 in 4, you have to admit that 25% is still quite a big number in terms of battling, and can make a -huge- difference in the long run.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 08:22 PM
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I wouldn't really like this, like what Derk explained above me. The current stat lineup is enough, and much more simple to understand. Adding new stats could make some Pokemon completely broken.
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Old February 26th, 2013, 10:52 PM
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OH GOD NO NOT EVASIVENESS(no offense) that is the worst stat to ever have been included ever. Reasoning follows bellow:

I know you've stated that hey, it's not necessary to have a Pokemon evade every single attack. But the problem with that is...well, weavile would be able to evade slower Pokemon like Slowbro, but taking in your previous stat into consideration(endurance), then that would make the likes of Slowbro/Slowking literally untouchable. Think about it, unless Weavile uses Night Slash, it cant make a damn dent in those two Pokemon, and they wouldn't even have to use speed to crush Weavile, they could just use a move like I dunno, Surf to KO it really. I'd say it's pretty damn hard to dodge a tital wave coming for you, but that's just me. XD

But really, i think that the stats that we have now are balanced enough as it is. you'd have sturdy Pokemon being literally untouchable by your standard neutral moves, since they have ridiculous endurance, and then you would have the Pokemon would high evasiveness being untouched by moves that require physical contact, so I do think that it'll be quite a bit unfair, and it'll definitely make competitive battling more of a struggle than it is. For example, you have a Pokemon like....Staraptor, right? Alright, we'll take Staraptor as an example. It's a pretty fast Pokemon, let's give it a good level of evasiveness.

And then let's try it's opponent. Luxray for good measure. Of course, taken into account that Luxray is a slower Pokemon than Staraptor, it's a bit of a problem. Not only this, but if you're applying that logic, then Luxray can't really touch Staraptor much, because Staraptor is a bird, and it can outspeed pretty much just about every single move that Luxray could do it, bar thunder/thunderbolt, and Lux is more of a physical attacker anyway, so it already has a disadvantage from the start.

Ultimately, I feel that I wouldn't be very comfortable with these changes because it would give certian Pokemon a -huge- boost while it would just bump down so many other Pokemon, making them have some sort of unfair disadvantage against those who have higher speed, and those who have higher speed having an unfair disadvantage against those who have extremely high endurance. It'll just really make things a lot more complicated than it should be, which is how things shouldn't be, especially when you consider that kids play these games, and the last thing that we need is for them to be throwing their 3DS' at the wall because (insert 6th gen pokemon here) has higher speed and, by mere luck, keeps dodging the opposing Pokemon's attacks. Even if it's 1 in 4, you have to admit that 25% is still quite a big number in terms of battling, and can make a -huge- difference in the long run.
I think you missed the point I was trying to make, with your example of the Weavile and the Slowking the point I was trying to make is that in the anime they are quite bulky even to moves which are super effective against it so why can this not be reflected in the games. I do enjoy the battling in pokemon games as it is but I just find that I am often bored and use the same pokemon over and over so adding in new stats would help bring some of the lesser used pokemon into action. As for your example about the Staraptor and the Luxray did you never consider if a Luxray was using a move like thunderbolt? Sure the Staraptor is fast but 9 times out 10 a thunderbolt is going to hit a bird pokemon and hit it hard.

What I was trying to achieve this this thread wasn't to get people to start wanting new stats but just to think about the options which Game Freak has to make the game a little more fun and technical by making it more like the Anime which if we're all honest has some of the greatest battle scenes in a TV show let alone in a kids show. I may have miss wrote what I was trying to get across I wasn't speculating that Bulky pokemon like Slowking be untouchable just more bulky when it comes to being hit super effectively some pokemon like Blissey for instance wouldn't get a high endurance because even though it is a big bulky pokemon endurance would work of a pokemons Sp. Defence and Defence but be a completely new stat meaning that just because a Rhyperior is Defensively bulky it doesn't necessarily mean it will have high endurance because it has a low Sp. Defence, pokemon who would have a higher endurance would be pokemon like Mismagius who has a well rounded Sp. Defence and Defenc mixed in with it's low HP means it would likely have a higher endurance than a Rhyperior because it has the ability to tank hits but not the HP to do so.

Man I am loving this intellectual debating over the past few days! :D
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Old February 27th, 2013, 05:11 AM
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Y'know, I feel like that Pokémon X and Y won't be introducing new types of stats, since this is something that they have never done since the days of Gold/Silver where they split Special into Special Attack and Special Defense. But you never know, they could.

If there was any new stats categories... I would speculate Friendship stats... since there's nothing else I can think off. But introducing new stats is highly unlikely, since there's hardly anything I can think of regarding new stats other than "Friendship".
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Old February 27th, 2013, 05:23 AM
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I, too, think friendship would be a good addition. Based on what level it is, and the nature of your pokemon, it could raise already existing stats. Or make your pokemon feel more close to you, maybe even have them follow behind you at a certain point!

There's plenty of options for this idea. And the friendship or "bond" level of a pokemon just sounds really fun and cute in general. Fits pokemon.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 06:55 AM
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I think the current stat system is well balanced and easy enough to understand that adding anything more would just upset that. More than that, base stat totals for all Pokémon as well as the number of EVs a Pokémon can have will have to be readjusted. To me that's just creating an unnecessary complication for players, and some newer players or those getting introduced into competitive battling already think the current system can be confusing as it is.

Also, a stat for evasiveness? Yeesh! Could you just imagine a Pokémon with a high evasive stat, an ability such as Sand Veil or Snow Cloak, and a move that lowers their opponents accuracy? That's like a battle nightmare!

A fitting quote for this would be, "Why fix something that isn't broke?"
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Old February 27th, 2013, 07:07 AM
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I think you missed the point I was trying to make, with your example of the Weavile and the Slowking the point I was trying to make is that in the anime they are quite bulky even to moves which are super effective against it so why can this not be reflected in the games. I do enjoy the battling in pokemon games as it is but I just find that I am often bored and use the same pokemon over and over so adding in new stats would help bring some of the lesser used pokemon into action. As for your example about the Staraptor and the Luxray did you never consider if a Luxray was using a move like thunderbolt? Sure the Staraptor is fast but 9 times out 10 a thunderbolt is going to hit a bird pokemon and hit it hard.
No offense, but I'm not sure if you even read my post, because if you did, then I answered pretty much exactly what you wanted me to! Do you know how much of a bulky Pokemon Slowbro is? Have you considered huge legendary Pokemon such as Wailord, Kyogre, or even Groudon for that matter? They sure have endurance, but how does evasiveness apply to them? During your entire post, I've not see one example of how this could apply to legendaries, and that's why I think it kind of fell flat here.

And yes, I disregarded the Luxray using thunderbolt half-on purpose, because again, Luxray is a physical attacker, no so much of a special one. It's possible, but does that mean thunderbolt is the only thing Luxray could use against flyers as a move that'll even hit? As a better example, what about two flying Pokemon against each other? It's certainly possible that they could dodge each other's moves as well as hit each other, so do explain the mechanics of how that would work. It would just be a huge mess in the games that wouldn't fare well, so do forgive me here for disagreeing.


Quote:
What I was trying to achieve this this thread wasn't to get people to start wanting new stats but just to think about the options which Game Freak has to make the game a little more fun and technical by making it more like the Anime which if we're all honest has some of the greatest battle scenes in a TV show let alone in a kids show. I may have miss wrote what I was trying to get across I wasn't speculating that Bulky pokemon like Slowking be untouchable just more bulky when it comes to being hit super effectively some pokemon like Blissey for instance wouldn't get a high endurance because even though it is a big bulky pokemon endurance would work of a pokemons Sp. Defence and Defence but be a completely new stat meaning that just because a Rhyperior is Defensively bulky it doesn't necessarily mean it will have high endurance because it has a low Sp. Defence, pokemon who would have a higher endurance would be pokemon like Mismagius who has a well rounded Sp. Defence and Defenc mixed in with it's low HP means it would likely have a higher endurance than a Rhyperior because it has the ability to tank hits but not the HP to do so.
I'm sorry, the run-on paragraph kind of confused me, but I'll further clarify myself to the best of my ability in the following example:

Let's take a super bulky Pokemon. Ferrothorn is an excellent example here. Name any other Pokemon that could come against Ferrothorn, and that Pokemon would almost always win, because it'll "dodge" Ferrothorn's attacks, similar to how it would in the anime. Ferrothorn is a Pokemon that(if I'm correct) does not, if hardly ever moves at all, so what if you're trying to lay down spikes? Stealth rock and Toxic spikes are also pretty much redundant if you're playing this like in the anime, since I assume that normal land-based Pokemon could just avoid them, but that's just an assumption anyway.

The point that I'm ultimately trying to make, is that, again, it would give certain Pokemon a huge boost, while it'll set back other Pokemon unfairly. To further clarify this, faster Pokemon have little chance against bulky Pokemon(unless they have choice band, but how does Choice Band work in the anime? Forgive me, I haven't watched the anime in years, so I wouldn't know, just using my imagination here), and vice-versa, because bulky Pokemon aren't "fast" enough to attack very fast Pokemon, so it'll just create an unnecessary hot mess, really.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 07:22 AM
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No offense, but I'm not sure if you even read my post, because if you did, then I answered pretty much exactly what you wanted me to! Do you know how much of a bulky Pokemon Slowbro is? Have you considered huge legendary Pokemon such as Wailord, Kyogre, or even Groudon for that matter? They sure have endurance, but how does evasiveness apply to them? During your entire post, I've not see one example of how this could apply to legendaries, and that's why I think it kind of fell flat here.

And yes, I disregarded the Luxray using thunderbolt half-on purpose, because again, Luxray is a physical attacker, no so much of a special one. It's possible, but does that mean thunderbolt is the only thing Luxray could use against flyers as a move that'll even hit? As a better example, what about two flying Pokemon against each other? It's certainly possible that they could dodge each other's moves as well as hit each other, so do explain the mechanics of how that would work. It would just be a huge mess in the games that wouldn't fare well, so do forgive me here for disagreeing.




I'm sorry, the run-on paragraph kind of confused me, but I'll further clarify myself to the best of my ability in the following example:

Let's take a super bulky Pokemon. Ferrothorn is an excellent example here. Name any other Pokemon that could come against Ferrothorn, and that Pokemon would almost always win, because it'll "dodge" Ferrothorn's attacks, similar to how it would in the anime. Ferrothorn is a Pokemon that(if I'm correct) does not, if hardly ever moves at all, so what if you're trying to lay down spikes? Stealth rock and Toxic spikes are also pretty much redundant if you're playing this like in the anime, since I assume that normal land-based Pokemon could just avoid them, but that's just an assumption anyway.

The point that I'm ultimately trying to make, is that, again, it would give certain Pokemon a huge boost, while it'll set back other Pokemon unfairly. To further clarify this, faster Pokemon have little chance against bulky Pokemon(unless they have choice band, but how does Choice Band work in the anime? Forgive me, I haven't watched the anime in years, so I wouldn't know, just using my imagination here), and vice-versa, because bulky Pokemon aren't "fast" enough to attack very fast Pokemon, so it'll just create an unnecessary hot mess, really.
Spikes and Toxic Spikes would be redundant? Have you watched the anime? You can still lay down spikes and any pokemon sent into battle would automatically have to touch with the obvious exceptions of flying/steel and poison pokemon, so even with the evasive stat at it's peak a pokemon would never be able to dodge a toxic spikes laydown, also Ferrothorn is a pokemon which doesn't attack often, It is used mainly as a setup pokemon so why would it matter if it's attacks could be evaded? and I am sure you never read my post about it completely through as I clearly stated all the evasive stat would do is give a pokemon a 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 chance chance to evade a slower pokemon if it's evasive stat is over a certain number. I never once said a extremely fast pokemon would be able to dodge every attack of a slower pokemon rather it being chance based to dodge the attack.

And you mention leaving out thunderbolt on a luxray because it is a physical attacker? but what electric types even those who are physical don't use thunder or thunderbolt? You can't just say "Because a pokemon is more physical it will never use a special based attack" because if you watched Paul vs Ash in the anime you will see that Paul's Aggron even though it is a physical attacker it uses Special based attacks! So your argument is slightly redundant it's self.

Some good points being made here! Keep it up guys! XD
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Old February 27th, 2013, 07:37 AM
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Spikes and Toxic Spikes would be redundant? Have you watched the anime? You can still lay down spikes and any pokemon sent into battle would automatically have to touch with the obvious exceptions of flying/steel and poison pokemon, so even with the evasive stat at it's peak a pokemon would never be able to dodge a toxic spikes laydown, also Ferrothorn is a pokemon which doesn't attack often, It is used mainly as a setup pokemon so why would it matter if it's attacks could be evaded? and I am sure you never read my post about it completely through as I clearly stated all the evasive stat would do is give a pokemon a 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 chance chance to evade a slower pokemon if it's evasive stat is over a certain number. I never once said a extremely fast pokemon would be able to dodge every attack of a slower pokemon rather it being chance based to dodge the attack.
I really do feel like you're ignoring parts of my post on purpose here.

Again, I admitted that I haven't watched the anime in years, so yes, my argument may be slightly off, but do recognize that the games are completely different from the anime for a reason. And yes, having Ferrothorn attack actually -does- matter, otherwise it'd just be a sitting duck(which, for most Pokemon, it already is, anyway). It's imperative that Ferrothorn attacks via either Gyro Ball or Power Whip, and how do you propose it would do that when, when you really think about it, it can't/doesn't even move much?

Also, I feel you didn't read this part of my first post, either.

Quote:
Even if it's 1 in 4, you have to admit that 25% is still quite a big number in terms of battling, and can make a -huge- difference in the long run.
Think about it. Scald hits for burn about 30% of the time. Which, if you think about it competitively, literally translates to "lol almost all the time", so what's the difference here? 5 percent? 1 in 6 would be more reasonable than 1 in 4, but I feel it'll just frustrate people more and more by incorporating anime mechanics into the game, because you're not really taking into account accuracy as well, which is also "evasiveness" to some sort of extent. You never explained in your post how accuracy would fit as far as endurance, or even evasiveness stat is concerned. So I feel like you're saying "hey, it doesn't matter if you're using a move with 100% accuracy, if you're using it against a faster pokemon, it has an x amount of chance of missing because the faster pokemon might dodge it."

Hax pisses off enough people already. Let's try not to make that worse, shall we?

Quote:
And you mention leaving out thunderbolt on a luxray because it is a physical attacker? but what electric types even those who are physical don't use thunder or thunderbolt? You can't just say "Because a pokemon is more physical it will never use a special based attack" because if you watched Paul vs Ash in the anime you will see that Paul's Aggron even though it is a physical attacker it uses Special based attacks! So your argument is slightly redundant it's self.

Some good points being made here! Keep it up guys! XD
I never said "never". I said "not so much a special attacker". But screwing that example altogether(since I felt it was a pretty bad one anyway), you also ignored when I asked you the question about explaining how mechanics between two flying Pokemon would work, or heck, even another better one! What about Ghost Pokemon? They're naturally immune to physical attacks, so could they only be hit by special attacks? What if Ghost Pokemon have a high evasion? There are honestly just so many things wrong here that you have to consider not just the stats, but how each Pokemon of each type would utilize that stat, if you're really trying to incorporate this and somehow make the games like the anime. There are so my flaws here and there's honestly so many things you're not explaining that it doesn't really help your argument, either.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 07:49 AM
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I would have to agree with what the people said above, the current stat system is pretty simple and balanced out and if they were to add some of the stats you mentioned i think it would just become too complicated.Even though you brought up some good points from the anime you have to remember that the game mechanics are totally different, some of the battling aspects of the anime would simply not work.

Also like Aerilyn said "Why fix something that isn't broke?"This is pretty much like the debate on introducing new types, it simply wouldn't work this far of into the franchise.The second generation introduced new types because the type chart was flawed in the first generation and the Special stat also split off into Sp.Atk and Sp.Def because that was something necessary.And adding new stats or types for that matter would be redundant.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 07:55 AM
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I really do feel like you're ignoring parts of my post on purpose here.

Again, I admitted that I haven't watched the anime in years, so yes, my argument may be slightly off, but do recognize that the games are completely different from the anime for a reason. And yes, having Ferrothorn attack actually -does- matter, otherwise it'd just be a sitting duck(which, for most Pokemon, it already is, anyway). It's imperative that Ferrothorn attacks via either Gyro Ball or Power Whip, and how do you propose it would do that when, when you really think about it, it can't/doesn't even move much?

Also, I feel you didn't read this part of my first post, either.



Think about it. Scald hits for burn about 30% of the time. Which, if you think about it competitively, literally translates to "lol almost all the time", so what's the difference here? 5 percent? 1 in 6 would be more reasonable than 1 in 4, but I feel it'll just frustrate people more and more by incorporating anime mechanics into the game, because you're not really taking into account accuracy as well, which is also "evasiveness" to some sort of extent. You never explained in your post how accuracy would fit as far as endurance, or even evasiveness stat is concerned. So I feel like you're saying "hey, it doesn't matter if you're using a move with 100% accuracy, if you're using it against a faster pokemon, it has an x amount of chance of missing because the faster pokemon might dodge it."

Hax pisses off enough people already. Let's try not to make that worse, shall we?



I never said "never". I said "not so much a special attacker". But screwing that example altogether(since I felt it was a pretty bad one anyway), you also ignored when I asked you the question about explaining how mechanics between two flying Pokemon would work, or heck, even another better one! What about Ghost Pokemon? They're naturally immune to physical attacks, so could they only be hit by special attacks? What if Ghost Pokemon have a high evasion? There are honestly just so many things wrong here that you have to consider not just the stats, but how each Pokemon of each type would utilize that stat, if you're really trying to incorporate this and somehow make the games like the anime. There are so my flaws here and there's honestly so many things you're not explaining that it doesn't really help your argument, either.
Ghost pokemon are not immune to physical attacks just normal and fighting attacks so they could still be hit by a move such as Thunder Fang so it wouldn't exactly ruin a battle, as for the 1 in 4 thing I didn't mean that it should be a 1 in 4 I was using it as an example obviously if they were to add it it would end up a 1 in 12 or something ridiculously low in order to keep battles flowing you say that the anime and the games are not similar but you have to understand that not watching the recent animes you sort of lose your a valid argument and it ends up as a stab in the dark.

You mention the matter of 2 bird pokemon with high speed and high evasion but if a fast pokemon comes up against another fast pokemon obviously they are going to be able to hit each other very often because they are fast enough not to be beaten by the other pokemons evasiveness stat, I tried not to go too much into how the game mechanics of these stats would actually work because alot of people wouldn't be able to understand how they would work but you are not fully grasping the concept I layed out, you need to take in all the information before commenting back, 2 fast pokemon will be easily able to hit each other, the same goes with 2 slow pokemon but a slow pokemon against a fast pokemon the faster pokemon should be allowed some sort of advantage and although you would argue being faster is the advantage already it doesn't apply to certain moves and items which require you to be slower, For example; zoom lens? payback ect.

The final point I wish to make is why wouldn't a pokemon be able to dodge something? the battles seem a tad unrealistic in that a pokemon would just stand there not move and just take hits and then deal them until 1 pokemon faints? how boring would that become in future games, so the reason I put up the evasion stat would be to throw up some controversy and make people debate about it! but in order to argue about it you cannot be 100% biased to one side you have to consider the other sides argument aswell!
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Old February 27th, 2013, 08:25 AM
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I think a main point isn't being addressed, and that's that the anime is an adaptation of the games. Believe it or not, everything is set in for the games first, and then the anime takes it from there and uses the Pokémon. So a Pokémon being able to dodge in the anime (which in all honesty is kind of crap to begin with, as the battling mechanics in the games and in the anime are two totally different things) based on an evasiveness stat honestly doesn't make sense to me. It would change the whole mechanics of the game (BSTs, IVs, EVs), which would just be a pain in the butt for the developers to even work around, and have to go back and change all the previous 600 odd current Pokémon.

You could say, "Hey, they split Special into Special Attack and Special Defense in Gen 2!" But that change made sense. There was already attack and defense, so splitting Special to fit the same mold (while only changing a MUCH smaller amount of Pokémon) was reasonable. On top of that, Gen 1's mechanics were still getting refined, so IVs and EVs really didn't have much bearing on that change either.

tl;dr If it ain't broke don't fix it
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Old February 27th, 2013, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake♫ View Post
I think a main point isn't being addressed, and that's that the anime is an adaptation of the games. Believe it or not, everything is set in for the games first, and then the anime takes it from there and uses the Pokémon. So a Pokémon being able to dodge in the anime (which in all honesty is kind of crap to begin with, as the battling mechanics in the games and in the anime are two totally different things) based on an evasiveness stat honestly doesn't make sense to me. It would change the whole mechanics of the game (BSTs, IVs, EVs), which would just be a pain in the butt for the developers to even work around, and have to go back and change all the previous 600 odd current Pokémon.

You could say, "Hey, they split Special into Special Attack and Special Defense in Gen 2!" But that change made sense. There was already attack and defense, so splitting Special to fit the same mold (while only changing a MUCH smaller amount of Pokémon) was reasonable. On top of that, Gen 1's mechanics were still getting refined, so IVs and EVs really didn't have much bearing on that change either.

tl;dr If it ain't broke don't fix it

I totally agree with the points you made there Jake re stating 649 and then another generation would be a massive task and wouldn't even be considered by Game Freak, I wasn't trying to say having more stats was something that is necessary more just trying to get people to think of alternate things which could be apart of the future franchise. The reason I put strong arguments for the stats was because I knew 99% of people would strongly disagree about more stats so I had to put up as good an argument for it as I could, but if I am being completely honest I don't think there is a problem with the current stat set up!

I did like the comment someone made about a friendship stat, I know the max Happiness is 255? so a stat showing what happiness your pokemon is at would be a pretty interesting thing, i know over the years there have been ways of telling how much your pokemon like you D/P/P had the friendship app where it would show you hearts but that wasn't much of an accurate showing of how much a pokemon liked you, we have also had NPC's who tell us how our pokemon want to be treated and how they're feeling which again haven't been that interesting or had much relevance in being used!
The thing I liked the most was when a pokemon follows you around in HG and SS it will tell you how it is feeling, THIS WAS A VERY NICE FEATURE! and I feel it should have stayed or even been upgraded in Black/White/Black 2 and White 2! :D
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Old February 27th, 2013, 09:59 AM
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Why are so many people against evasiveness? I mean okay it could honestly break the game, but it would be nice to have it depicted in stats then just random text blurbs after double team or what not. Its based on speed now, so I would assume they could just use that as a factor for the evasiveness of a Pokemon and that's it. I dunno, I read the entire thread and while both sides are right, evasiveness just feels like one of those things that should exist.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 11:16 AM
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There's one last point that I wish to make, though, but it's more or less echo-ing what Jake said.

As I've stated many many times throughout my posts, I just generally feel that it's something that is unfair to a lot of Pokemon and just overly complex. I'm not going to go into the complexity of everything, because Jake has already covered that. I've already provided examples on how this system just wouldn't work, along with your standard "x attack missed!" I mean, I considered that a form of "dodging", don't you? Personally, I'm pretty shocked that you neglected to mention that throughout your entire argument.

When you're battling Pokemon via the games, I don't care if there's a 1 in 100 chance that a Pokemon's going to dodge, there's still that chance happening, and on top of that, you have to worry about your own Pokemon's accuracy stat as well. That means that moves such as Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, Stone Edge, Focus Blast, and just about every single move with an accuracy stat of 80 or lower is going to be significantly harder to use, no matter how you argue it, because these moves already miss enough as it is; you add an extra statistic(evasion) on top of that, then these moves are going to most likely hit around half the time, so what's the actual point? What is this evasiveness system really going to achieve in the end, and is it really worth making the games that similar to the anime at all? What would the overall benefit to this?

I feel that I didn't really have enough time to expand on my arguments and my examples, because I was such in a rush and whatnot, but now since I have time, I'll go ahead and further explain what I mean and why this evasiveness vs endurance system just wouldn't work out. I'll tackle it out point by point, and you see whether or not you agree with me, but there are more factors to take into consideration than just the words themselves, and I'll go into detail with them now:
Evasiveness:
Example 1: Swellow vs Snorlax

Ah yes, You have a fast Pokemon versus a very bulky Pokemon, two excellent examples and excellent demonstrations of what you're trying to portray here. Swellow, with a base what, 120 speed, and Snorlax, who's basically a special sponge. It seems that at first glance, assuming that Swellow assumes Toxic Orb, that this battle is already won. But utilizing your own ideas, how would evasiveness work on Snorlax? Snorlax has to have evasiveness too, and that's something you cannot possibly ignore! Now, keep in mind that Snorlax has a ridiculous amount of endurace, and that Swellow is just a tiny bird that would seem like a mere housefly to a giant...whatever-you-call Snorlax. The point being, who has the advantage, and who doesn't? What you don't explain in your arguments is that you don't throughly go by and explain point by point who has the advantage and who doesn't, and you cannot possibly argue that because it is way too complex! There's a possibility that Swellow could miss a Facade, or that Facade would just bounce off Snorlax because of that ridiculous endurance. But you're also forgetting another thing! What about Defense? What about the regular stats? Are they taken into account as well? There are just so many questions, and so little answers to them that you don't provide in your arguments that it seems like all you're saying is that "well in the anime this works, so this should work in the games as well!" which isn't necessarily true! Snorlax is fairly flimsy defensively unless it runs a Curse Set, and that's honestly pretty much it's only weakness. Pray tell, how do you plan on beating that huge hunk if all neutral attacks bounce off that thing? Are you proposing using fighting attacks? But didn't you provide a previous example of Ash's Snorlax surviving several fighting attacks?

A Pokemon's height and weight are also taken into consideration, because the one factor that motivates endurace as well as evasiveness is just that: Usually the lighter you are, the faster you are, and the heavier you are, the more bulkier you are, and thus the more resistant to attacks you are. So why not scrap evasivness and endurance and just make weight the ultimate determination of whether or not an attack damages a Pokemon, because that's, in essence, the same thing! You want another example of what I'm talking about? Fine, very well, I'll have at it, then.

Example #2: Kyogre vs Rayquaza

Again, you fail to address exactly how this applies to legendary Pokemon. Kyogre vs Rayquaza, Kyogre vs Groudon, and what about the Deoxys forms? What about Shaymin forms? Can land Shaymin dodge just as well as Sky Shaymin, and would those evasiveness stats change? What about Deoxys-S? You do notice that, hypothetically, by introducing the evasiveness stat, you are giving the fastest Pokemon in existence the ability to dodge just about every single move ever made? Don't you think that's just a slight bit unfair? Also noting that Pokemon with a base speed of around 100(let's actually make it better: 110) or more would have a significant advantage against those with a lower speed? Also, don't you think that defense and special defense are there for a reason to signify endurance along with HP? Don't you think that, by the introduction of endurance, that somehow defense as well as special defense would be neglected, accounting for the new stat instead, but how would defense as well as special defense be utilized? Are they just going to be scrapped and replaced by the new endurance stat? There are just so many logical fallacies in your argument and so many questions that I can ask. Here, let me provide another example just to show you, and this will be a good one, I promise you:

Volcarona

So what? Big deal, that thing is Stealth Rock weak, and Terrakion scares the piss out of that thing. Have you ever met Quiver dance Volcarona in sun? How would stat boost effect both the evasiveness stat as well as the endurance stat? If by using Quiver Dance several times, is it possible that Volcarona could also be increasing its endurance stat as well? But that would be incorrect, because Volc here dies to Stone edge regardless. But how can it die when Terrakion can't even touch the damn thing? Poor Terra, with it's only means of hitting Volcarona, now reduced to only hitting by half, and if it misses, assuming that Volcarona has HP Ground or something of that nature, Terrakion is done for. I don't care if it has Balloon, Fiery Dance would hit just as hard, and Terrakion would have to pray to Arceus in order to even get a chance against that thing. So you're talking about one of the very few counters to Volcarona, ruined because of this evasiveness/endurance introduction.

tldr: It further complicates things more than it should because it always varies from Pokemon to Pokemon, and each Pokemon takes each attack differently than the next. That being said, it would make competitive Pokemon just about infuriating to play, increasing the amount of "hax" to massive levels.

Last edited by Zorua; February 27th, 2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 11:27 AM
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Agreed with what the others said. I like the current stat lineup. Evasiveness would just make the game more based on luck than skill.
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Old March 1st, 2013, 03:53 AM
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Evasion stat would destroy competitive battling, given that we have the evasion clause already and I don't think we need more evasion. I really love how the current stats are and I really don't think changing them would be that beneficial. :x

Sorry for lack of long reply but I think everyone else has everything covered for the most part. :)
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Old March 1st, 2013, 04:00 AM
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I agree evasiveness would break the competitive scene. It would be as unfair as critical hits being judged on speed like they were in gen I.
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Old March 1st, 2013, 08:20 PM
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Why would you ever want evasiveness as a proper stat...? How many times have you been battling an NPC who spams Double Team? Or trudged through D/P's foggy areas? It's not a very fun mechanic - especially if you're battling another person, since someone's gotta be on the receiving end of a redundant stream of "Your attack missed! Your attack missed! The opponent avoided the attack! Your attack missed!" Ultimately evasiveness either slows the game down by turning it into a repetitive stall war or it drastically tips the odds in one player's favor, making it a game of skewed luck rather than skill. There's a reason dodging isn't really a thing in the Pokemon games. They run on a turn-based battle system, and when attacks miss regularly in a turn-based system it starts to bog down and ruin the gameplay value. Giving some Pokemon better evasiveness than others would do little more than make those Pokemon insanely obnoxious to battle.

As for endurance, bulk is already achieved through a combination of HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Not to mention most bulky Pokemon tend to have means of improving their already impressive stalling capabilities, boosting stats and restoring HP and whatnot. Seems kinda pointless.

Really if both of these new stats were added it would make the entire game insanely sluggish and defense oriented. Think about it: stacking the two damage-dealing stats (Attack and Special Attack) against five damage-resisting stats (HP, Defense, Special Defense, Evasiveness, and Endurance). You mention Adrenaline as another possibility to boost attack stats, but I doubt it'd do much good against a fourfold defense stat structure - assuming your attacks hit at all when Evasiveness is a major factor! Ultimately you'd just have to invent new ofensive stats to balance against the defensive stats, and then you'd end up with the same stat balance - just more unnecessarily complicated.

I think the six stat system works pretty much perfectly. It's lightweight and comfortable, easy to understand for casual players while still allowing depth for competitive players. But I wouldn't mind seeing maybe a couple more "hidden" stats like evasiveness is now.
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