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  #26    
Old January 20th, 2013, 04:48 AM
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I don't have long enough to read the whole thread, so I'm just going to reply to the first post.

Having been here since 2009, I do agree that game development has lost a lot of its sense of community in the last few years. But I don't think this is just a problem with this one section, it's a problem with the whole of the forum. Many older members have left and haven't been replaced by enough new members. It's one of the reasons I've mostly left the Game Development section and entirely left the rest of PC and gone to deviantART. There's a lot better community over there then there is here.

As for people criticising, I honestly don't think this is a bad thing most of the time. Yes, comments that go along the lines of "This is bad because it is" obviously don't help, but most are well written constructive criticism. If someone can't take the CC of other members, and therefore improve their game with it in mind, they shouldn't be making a game. My entire game is based around the criticism I have taken, and it looks far better than it did at first.

And people holding grudges is just something that is always going to happen in this kind of community. The majority of members are young and still immature, so will tend to hold grudges against people instead of thinking it out logically. People from this section have held grudges against me, but I really haven't taken it at all seriously because I know they're just immature. A lack of good moderation at times (such as when there were no mods) also hasn't helped.

Edit: After reading the rest of the thread, I'm probably going to double the size of this post in quotes once I get back to my computer.
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  #27    
Old January 20th, 2013, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ayutac View Post
I disagree here. While making games can be fun, I think the focus should be on completing them. Don't you hate it when you play a wonderful game and realize you can't go further because no one developed it further, and not only yet but never because he/she quitted? You would miss the part you can't play ever. If this game would have never been released, you wouldn't miss anything. It's a bit like love. But personally, I would pass the joy for not having to miss it. The game I mean.
The second thing is, this is "Game Development" and not "Game Let's start one and never finish it". If one just wants to mess around a little bit / have fun with others, there is the RPG-Section for that.
I may sound radical to you, but these are my thoughts.
No one here has an obligation to finish the game they are making. Like you said it's "Game Development", not "Game I must finish". You can put several different spins on the title, but I think that the constant pestering and asking of releases/dates from a developer is very dismissive of the hard work they are putting in, and quite discouraging. This is the exact attitude which isn't helping a community at all. Instead of thinking "when will they finish the game so that I can play it", you could be thinking "how could I help the game production" (if you really want to play it). I don't see anything wrong with taking one's time in producing a polished and better piece of work, rather than just spewing out complete yet unattractive crap. I've gotten criticized a lot throughout the years, for never releasing the game, taking ages to finish, or suffering from the "Duke Nukem forever" syndrome, been called a "feature creep" on numerous occasions. I simply couldn't care less. I find Game-Devving fun, and do it for that: a hobby in my spare time, something to challenge myself and sharpen my skills. I don't have any production pressure on me as the game isn't commercial, neither does the rest of the community. It is all open to the developer. If they want to release a demo/beta/early-release they can, if they don't, they don't have to. No one is forcing you to follow any game, or stopping your life for it.

This was one of the reasons I closed my thread here, as getting nagged for a release 10-15 times daily wasn't helpful or constructive. I rarely receive helpful offers, but receive a ton of requests on a daily basis. Problem is that this "community" turned into a commercial competition, where most of the people just want attention/praise - but that is human nature. People will have no problem screwing you over just so that they can achieve a personal goal. You see that everywhere: school, internet, commerce, etc. There is also the segment of us getting more and more people starting to make games with the mindset of "who can help me" rather than "how can I help myself". Since it is a hobby, not too many really have the patience to do any real problem solving. I've seen some ridiculous threads being opened here where people post their error messages asking for help, where all you had to do is read the message and change what the message said was wrong (this is what they are for). I personally loose interest in a community like that. I had discussions on such topics with Maruno and Abnegation, and now another one here. I always keep asking myself, why do I even bother? This thread will probably become inactive soon, pushed into the archives, and then people will come again doing the same crap over and over again. I've been here for over 4 years, and I've seen it all happen again and again. I believe those are the reasons why the better gamedevs (like Neo-Dragon, Wichu, Flameguru, Poccil, etc) left this community. And with them gone, and not many to fill their shoes, the quality of the community is going down the drain.
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Last edited by Luka S.J.; January 20th, 2013 at 06:40 AM.
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  #28    
Old January 20th, 2013, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peeky Chew View Post

And people holding grudges is just something that is always going to happen in this kind of community. The majority of members are young and still immature, so will tend to hold grudges against people instead of thinking it out logically. People from this section have held grudges against me, but I really haven't taken it at all seriously because I know they're just immature. A lack of good moderation at times (such as when there were no mods) also hasn't helped.
A good point but it's too personal really, you can't blame the downfall of the section based on someone that does or doesn't have a grudge. If they do hold a grudge, they're more likely to not even look at the thread or talk to the member, that happens everywhere. It's not a sole reason for this all.
I agree that what really put a spanner in the works was having no mod, but that's not the GameDev community's fault. Hell, mods sometimes even leave off topic threads in the wrong section here open, just to stop this whole place from dying.
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  #29    
Old January 20th, 2013, 06:37 AM
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I think the section would benefit a lot if there was more going on. So more competitons, such as map-offs, small game making competitions, more community projects to help out essentials, working together to make more resources, and in general, more things that bring the section to life.

Really should have said that earlier but posting on a phone can be tedious. Would you guys be up for that? Another example would be finally getting the GDM moving. That'd benefit from being a community effort, or multiple people, it's a big challenge for one person alone.
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  #30    
Old January 20th, 2013, 07:19 AM
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I agree with Abnegation. We should really have some maping competitions, screenshot competitions and stuff like that. I think that will bring the GD comunnity a bit closer and we'll make more friends that way I suppose.

The threads in beginner showcase rearly get any posts or constructive critics on the work. Why is it like that? Because it is beginner showcase ? There are some really good games/ideas in beginner showcase but its sad to see a potential game has about 10 post and 8 of them are when is the game going to be released or where is the download link. Its really sad to see that and it keeps you from updating here really. We have to do something about that and whole GD comunnity.
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  #31    
Old January 20th, 2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayutac View Post
I disagree here. While making games can be fun, I think the focus should be on completing them. Don't you hate it when you play a wonderful game and realize you can't go further because no one developed it further, and not only yet but never because he/she quitted? You would miss the part you can't play ever. If this game would have never been released, you wouldn't miss anything. It's a bit like love. But personally, I would pass the joy for not having to miss it. The game I mean.
The second thing is, this is "Game Development" and not "Game Let's start one and never finish it". If one just wants to mess around a little bit / have fun with others, there is the RPG-Section for that.
I may sound radical to you, but these are my thoughts.
Reading this post has irritated me quite a bit. No matter which you spin this sections name off, it will always be a section for others to show off their work. People like you don't seem to realise this one fact, these games are not made by dedicated teams, most of them are made by either a single person, or on average 3-5 people. They are not getting paid to make these games, they do not have to complete it just to please others who are playing the game for FREE. It's a hobby of theirs to try out making their own fan game of an existing franchise, it's not their job, it's not the peoples choice as to whether it gets finished, it's their time, their project, if they don't want to finish the game anymore due to lack of interest, then it's up to them, not us. At the end of the day, yes, it does make disappointment to those who are following the game, but quite frankly, if you want a game complete, do it yourself. Note, "Game Development Come here to discuss your games, and the tools used to create them." not "Game Development Come here to complete your game so arrogant gits can complain about it" nor "Game Development Come here to not finish your game."
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  #32    
Old January 20th, 2013, 08:45 AM
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There are many great points here in this thread. I haven't had time to read them all, but the gist of things is easy to pick up, myself being a member and a part of the game development empire of Pokecommunity for about 6 or 7 years. I think that as the Game Development section has progressed over the last few years, we have strayed from the basic ideas that give existence to the section itself. The problem isn't on decreasing numbers of finished games, no. It is deeper. It is a problem that leads to few games, and fewer interested members. A big problem I seem to see all the time revolves around the cockiness of greater experienced users. When I was new here years ago, I was welcomed to warm responses from advanced users such as Flameguru. These users brought me to the experience level that I am at now (not just with the RPG Maker program and infamous starter kit, but in game development overall). Nowadays when you see a new user show up here, you also see their attempts to fit in thwarted by some random arrogant user. I can't help but to feel sorry for the new user, since I realize that I was once new to all of this. I don't fully understand how they feel, though, since I was never given destructive criticism back years ago. It must be intimidating for them, and probably turns many away from this section. If we could bring in more new users, and allow them to hit the ground running with enough experience to get farther on their own, then perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about the eventual death of this portion of the most beloved Pokémon forum. We have many tutorials, but I feel that there needs to be a very long and detailed tutorial, almost a book, that could allow these users to get going, or maybe a sub thread for new users that is accompanied by an advanced one, that involves some type of schooling. That's just my two-cents. If anyone agrees, then great. If anyone doesn't, then post some kind of arrogant response giving reason on why your opinion is better than mine - I dare you.
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  #33    
Old January 20th, 2013, 08:50 AM
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@carmaniac:
I know these points. "most of them are made by either a single person, or on average 3-5 people." and "not getting paid to make these games, [...] just to please others who are playing the game for FREE" apply to me as well.
Of course they don't have the duty to finish, as people don't have that when writing stories or painting images. But it sucks when they don't and they should start with the attitude to finish and trying their best to do so after recognizing their game is somewhat popular. Or at least release the source code or something like that...

As said, I may sound a little bit radical. Maybe because I'm a mathematican / computer scientist. I'm used to get things finished. You can't code a package halfway and release it then, same goes for proofs. And being an author before these two, I'm also sad when you don't finish a story.

EDIT: But I may add that it is fascinating how you guys actually got a new form to express the love to the fandom, standing aside with writing, drawing and composing: Creating games.
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  #34    
Old January 25th, 2013, 11:55 AM
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I have seen a few projects similar to my project and I try to not be negative. I have played with Jext on Pokengine and try to offer my own opinions. Features that are received well with my users I send him the suggestion of using them in his engine. He hasn't played my game but he knows I am working on it and has given me positive comments about the development process.

I think people who are negative of others projects are usually intimidated by the other user's project. If you have confidence in what you are doing then others shouldn't be a threat. If you keep a positive attitude and get your ideas out there then you will probably retain credit for your suggestion.

I understand the negative attitude, people are paranoid that others will steal your ideas or project. Everyone wants to be the topic poster who has 1000000 views and 10000 posts. But good games are usually not just one person working on the project it is usually a team of people working together and no one person takes all the glory. Making video games takes a team. There is no way around that. If you have good opinions and can contribute then you can get on the credits of the project and that should be enough. Because if you think you will waltz in and become the Member of the year because of your RPG maker project then you need to mature a little.

I agree that new members are treated a little different in the community. I have been programming for 10 years but just recently created an account. I do tend to get the cold shoulder where I go. Not blaming anyone because i can see the forum being flooded with spam if everyone is allowed to do whatever they want. And number of posts and age of account are the only numbers to go by.
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Last edited by Rolyataylor2; January 25th, 2013 at 12:00 PM. Reason: last paragraph
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  #35    
Old January 26th, 2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nintendork15 View Post
Your criticism is good, because you make it harsh and able to stick the poster due to being honest and harsh, without sugarcoating it.
The only thing that will stick about such harsh criticism (especially when it's not asked for) is that the person giving it is somebody to be avoided. While you should still tell people what's wrong, if you really want to help them, you must always be careful and sensitive in how you word things. Otherwise you come off as judgmental and unsupportive.
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  #36    
Old February 13th, 2013, 07:42 AM
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  #37    
Old March 3rd, 2013, 10:38 AM
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It's strange how this section's attracted me so much that I feel like it's a part of me, and yet have never really posted or looked around much anywhere. Sometimes I wonder if the shift in demographic for the franchise ever had anything to do with it. I wouldn't know how something like that would be negative, but I keep seeing evidence of that shift.
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  #38    
Old March 3rd, 2013, 01:42 PM
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What do you mean by a shift in demographic?
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  #39    
Old March 3rd, 2013, 09:06 PM
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Going by the little bits of posts here and there, the community seems to have grown up over time as the 4-10 year-olds that were hit by the fad in 1998-2000 became a next generation with a different set of responsibilities. An extreme example happens with Pokemon Crater where going off to college pretty much excised them from the fanbase. It's by no means hard evidence, but Bulbagarden's long-standing poll to its community about ages has a huge bump in the 1992-births area. It's likely that the birthdates of the community will be slowly moving over as time passes, but seeing as the day of the fad was the time when the franchise really was at its best, it could be said that we're past the point where we can rely on the series's own interest to put the interest in fangaming. Actually, a better way to say it would probably be that the demographic has shifted over.

I do remember the times when there were always a few games popping up here and there in idea-concept stage. Boy do I miss those days... false hope or not at least there was hope...
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