TMs and HMs

[Jake♫]

Previous TM thread here

With every new generation the TM and HM list are added to, changed around, and sometimes even have things removed. Do you think they'll continue the trend of the 5th generation and just add to the current TM list, or do you think they will change it completely? Do you think any HMs will be removed/added again? Is there any moves that you would want added to either list?

I honestly like the TM list as it is, and if anything I'd love additions to it like Unova did. I think it was a great idea with the fresh start to have a new set of TMs starting from 51, and keeping the set from Generation 4. As HMs go, I'd love to see Cut get removed as an HM, as it's onlly actually useful during the beginning to mid-game most of the time.

[Narnia]

I don't think they'll change the whole TM list completely honestly. It would be too hard thinking of new replacements that didn't copy names etc. and it involves quite a bit of effort. I think Gamefreak will just continue the trend of keeping the current TMs and adding onto it, which I personally like. Also, I'd like to honestly see more Water TMs added, not HMs but TMs. The only one I can think of at the moment is Water Pulse and although it has a nice side-effect, honestly we need more powerful ones. :x

As for HMs, I really want them to get rid of Cut. One of the most awful and useless moves in existence, in the games I think you only need to use it once or twice and in battle, it isn't helpful at all. :B

[Miss Doronjo]

They'll at least add more TMs because I do bet that there is going to be new moves. But, honestly, I don't think they'll change around the mechanics of TMs that much. They've probably released that they current TM system is very easy for us, since they're now all multi-use. As for HMs, I dunno, I think they should at least make them more hidden. Or, at least get rid of some of them, because, would a machine or compact disc be the only way to teach a pokemon that can surf naturally, like Lapras, or a pokemon who has been known for cutting and slashing, like Scyther who needs to know how to cut?

[.Aero]

TMs will be expanded for sure. There's literally no doubt in my mind that the number will increase. They'll probably replace a few TMs with other moves (as they have in the past) but I expect the general list to stay pretty much the same as last generation.

As for HMs, I hate them. I really honestly hate them more than anything. Essentially when planning out a team or just going through the game before you play you have to remember to cover each HM required to beat the game or just for convenience sake (like Fly). I find it ridiculous that pokemon like Wailord or Swellow need to learn Surf / Fly respectively before being able to actually do it. It didn't make much sense to me.

What I would like to see from HMs is this:
1. Keep them, but make them non-permanent. I don't understand why they were ever permanent in the first place.
2. Once you have the HM, you aren't required to teach it to a Pokemon in order for the Pokemon to be able to use it outside of battle. You just need the corresponding badge and the HM, and the Pokemon itself simply has to have the POTENTIAL of being able to learn the move (for example, say you have the Surf HM and its corresponding badge and you have a Swanna. It doesn't have to physically know Surf to be able to Surf outside of battle).
3. You can still teach it to your Pokemon because certain HMs are very useful in battle too (i.e. Surf / Waterfall).

I feel like it's an old mechanic that just needs to be dropped. It's just an inconvenience and I don't believe we'll ever have another HM Slave as good as Bibarel (and most people don't even want him in their team anyway).

I know Black and White took a step in the right direction making it so that the only REQUIRED HM as far as I was concerned was Cut. And you only had to use it once, so you could catch some Purrloin or something early (and extra one if you wanted), teach it Cut, and then forget about it later. They're almost there though and I'm hoping HMs are dropped almost entirely.

[Cerberus87]

Originally Posted by Narnia

I don't think they'll change the whole TM list completely honestly. It would be too hard thinking of new replacements that didn't copy names etc. and it involves quite a bit of effort. I think Gamefreak will just continue the trend of keeping the current TMs and adding onto it, which I personally like. Also, I'd like to honestly see more Water TMs added, not HMs but TMs. The only one I can think of at the moment is Water Pulse and although it has a nice side-effect, honestly we need more powerful ones. :x

As for HMs, I really want them to get rid of Cut. One of the most awful and useless moves in existence, in the games I think you only need to use it once or twice and in battle, it isn't helpful at all. :B

Well there's Scald... It's one of the most used moves in the game.

The reason for not many Water TMs is simple: there are a lot of Water HMs. Two of them are very good (Surf and Waterfall).

I'd like a type change to Cut, make it Bug-type, maybe increase its power and accuracy a bit.

Now, as for my wish... Well, I think it can't be denied that the absolute best TM/HM list of all time was in 4th gen. 3rd gen fixed the absolute fiasco that was 2nd gen, and 4th just added more on top of it. In 5th gen they replaced a few moves with gimmicky and useless ones like Struggle Bug. Now with the 3DS and bigger memory I expect the TM/HM list to contain more than 100 moves, and it would be awesome to see some of the current move tutor techniques to be added as TMs, so that they can be passed down through breeding, but I guess they need some use for Shards...

[Twilight Sky]

Just keep on addin', is my stance! :3

I'd love for there to be more TMs! The thought of HMs still bugs me, but if anything I just wish HMs were easier to remove without having to go to a Move Deleter each and everytime you wanted them removed, that part was just kind of irritating, if anything.

And also what Aero mentioned here:

2. Once you have the HM, you aren't required to teach it to a Pokemon in order for the Pokemon to be able to use it outside of battle. You just need the corresponding badge and the HM, and the Pokemon itself simply has to have the POTENTIAL of being able to learn the move (for example, say you have the Surf HM and its corresponding badge and you have a Swanna. It doesn't have to physically know Surf to be able to Surf outside of battle).

That'd be my wish as far as TMs/HMs go for these games.

[Archeops12354]

I hate HM's, you can't make your pokemon forget them, they are relatively useless in battle (apart from surf and waterfall), and you usually need an HM slave which takes up a slot in your team, HM's suck. But you know what I hate most about HM's? You need the move 'cut' to cut down a tree, but why can't I use X-Scissor to cut the tree? Or psycho cut? Or guillotine? I just don't understand.
Also, why can't birds fly without teaching it the move 'fly'? Shouldn't it be a natural thing for them to fly? The same thing goes for water types that need a special move just so they can do what they were born to do - swim, or in this case 'surf'.
HM's are just stupid, and I hate them. They should just be changed to TM's.

[imevil]

They will probably not change the current list but just add to it in order to make up for new moves in gen 6.

[Zorogami]

Removing the HMs (or at least some) would be one of the greatest improvements ever to a pokemon game. I get how HMs are needed to make some areas only accessible in later parts of the games, but they could make them Key items, that way you dont always need a certain pokemon with a certain move in your party, just to cut down a stupid tree. I think this system would work better than HMs

As TMs go, im really satisfied with the list in B/W2, and i think it should stay that way, after adding some new TMs for new Gen VI attacks of course

[Elendil]

Saying it for the umpteenth time, get rid of the damn HM's. At worst, at least give them an HM slot on Pokemon and allow us to breath. Pokemon has never been and never will be a game that successfully utilizes the keys for keyholes progression that other games have.

[vaporeon7]

I wouldn't mind them keeping HMs, but they should really make the move deleter earlier in the game. Also Cut needs a power boost or it needs to go. Seriously, it's worse than Tackle now.

[Forever]

I want HMs to have little use through the game, much like what happened in Unova. It was really nice for HMs not to matter, and I'd like to see it again!

As for TMs, idm as long as Scald and Stealth Rock are included n_n

[Kurapika]

^ Indeed, HMs are just annoying especially when they're super-mega lame such as Cut, even Tackle is more useful than Cut (same power and damage type, more PPs, more accuracy, easy to replace, ...)
I don't matter for HMs to be there as long as they are pretty useful such as Surf and Fly.
Regarding TMs, I personally find 100 TM more than enough. I am actually concerned about Move Tutors, I hope they will put PLEEEEEEEENTY of them as they did in B2/W2 and Platinium. :]

[Zorogami]

Originally Posted by Kurapika

I am actually concerned about Move Tutors, I hope they will put PLEEEEEEEENTY of them as they did in B2/W2 and Platinium. :]

You are right, i really did like how the tutor system worked in B/W2, they definitely should use a similar system in X/Y, but maybe with even more tutors and attacks!!

[Jake♫]

Originally Posted by Forever

As for TMs, idm as long as Scald and Stealth Rock are included n_n

If Stealth Rock comes back as a TM you don't even understand how happy I would be

[Diversion]

I don't mind the TMs, but I do mind the HMs.
Cut and Rock smash are just horrible, they both need to be replaced, or just boost them.

[Tackle]

I agreed with Diversion, Cut and Rock Smash are bad, they should be replaced.
That would be great if there're new HM moves, such as Mud Shot for filling the hole.

[Archeops12354]

When gen 5 was introduced, you have no idea how happy I was when GF made TMs reusable, it's just the greatest thing eva!!! Although, it does lose some brownie points for no longer making stealth rock a TM, but still! REUSABLE TMs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[XanderO]

Originally Posted by Kurapika

I am actually concerned about Move Tutors, I hope they will put PLEEEEEEEENTY of them as they did in B2/W2 and Platinium. :]

Originally Posted by Zorogami

You are right, i really did like how the tutor system worked in B/W2, they definitely should use a similar system in X/Y, but maybe with even more tutors and attacks!!

Move tutors don't appear until the second set of games (third's, remakes, or sequels). The main game sets never have them.

As for HMs...they are going to keep them so there is no point in whining. They may be useless to you but I and other do like them. They've had their reasons for making them non-deletable so you can't get locked in an area bu accident should you trade a Pokemon with an HM over instead of trying to find said HM on your own as there are usually optional HMs.

TM wise, I kinda hope they only change a handful of the ones we have currently. I'd prefer if they keep the highly competitive ones out. Keep those as Egg Moves until the Move tutors reappear in the next installments of the game.

Originally Posted by Tackle

I agreed with Diversion, Cut and Rock Smash are bad, they should be replaced.
That would be great if there're new HM moves, such as Mud Shot for filling the hole.

Rock Smash on a Pokemon with Serene Grace is severely OP. None of the HMs are incredibly useless. Only time they don't get a lot of support is when you don't have to use them. Practically all the HMs were useless in Gen 5 as you didn't have to use any of them more than once some you'd never have to use at all if you didn't want to do all the extra things. You can go the whole game without using Surf and Waterfall. They were useless by that regard. All they have to do is create more mandatory use of each HM. I can see a good number of attacks getting nerfed in power in Gen 6 since they got boosted in Gen 5. They do it a lot between generations and sometimes within the same gens. I rather hope they weaken some moves rather than increase others.

[Forever]

Originally Posted by Diversion

I don't mind the TMs, but I do mind the HMs.
Cut and Rock smash are just horrible, they both need to be replaced, or just boost them.

I don't think they'll get boosted much. ;( There's better as it is. Unless they extend Cut to like, Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Slash, Leaf Blade and so on. :3 Those would thus perform the duties of cut!

[Jake♫]

Originally Posted by XanderO

TM wise, I kinda hope they only change a handful of the ones we have currently. I'd prefer if they keep the highly competitive ones out. Keep those as Egg Moves until the Move tutors reappear in the next installments of the game.

This I would just like to see you expand upon. Any particular reason you would like them left out? Personally, leaving them out is just discouraging to a lot of people who battle competitively, and it makes it much more difficult to actually make a Pokémon viable. I can understand keeping some things out so that move tutors actually have a purpose (which I feel that has been done well in the past, it gives a lot of things new toys to play with), but I don't see a point of keeping some of the more powerful TMs out of the game just for the sake of doing it. I guess I can understand leaving some of them out because they probably don't have as much use in-game as they would competitively, but even then I'd love to see some of them included in the Gen 6 TM list.

[Jimmyray]

Originally Posted by .Aero

TMs will be expanded for sure. There's literally no doubt in my mind that the number will increase. They'll probably replace a few TMs with other moves (as they have in the past) but I expect the general list to stay pretty much the same as last generation.

As for HMs, I hate them. I really honestly hate them more than anything. Essentially when planning out a team or just going through the game before you play you have to remember to cover each HM required to beat the game or just for convenience sake (like Fly). I find it ridiculous that pokemon like Wailord or Swellow need to learn Surf / Fly respectively before being able to actually do it. It didn't make much sense to me.

What I would like to see from HMs is this:
1. Keep them, but make them non-permanent. I don't understand why they were ever permanent in the first place.
2. Once you have the HM, you aren't required to teach it to a Pokemon in order for the Pokemon to be able to use it outside of battle. You just need the corresponding badge and the HM, and the Pokemon itself simply has to have the POTENTIAL of being able to learn the move (for example, say you have the Surf HM and its corresponding badge and you have a Swanna. It doesn't have to physically know Surf to be able to Surf outside of battle).
3. You can still teach it to your Pokemon because certain HMs are very useful in battle too (i.e. Surf / Waterfall).

I feel like it's an old mechanic that just needs to be dropped. It's just an inconvenience and I don't believe we'll ever have another HM Slave as good as Bibarel (and most people don't even want him in their team anyway).

I know Black and White took a step in the right direction making it so that the only REQUIRED HM as far as I was concerned was Cut. And you only had to use it once, so you could catch some Purrloin or something early (and extra one if you wanted), teach it Cut, and then forget about it later. They're almost there though and I'm hoping HMs are dropped almost entirely.

I like the idea of having HM's as more of an ability than having to take up a move slot, but I think a more logical way they could enforce this - considering the direction they've gone with gen 5 - is to simply make HM moves replaceable, then for example, you could teach Cut to your Scyther and delete, say, X-Scissor, and then once you're done replace the HM with the TM again seeing as you can use them however many times you want now. This might become a little tedious but it saves the whole move deleter process and also means you're less likely to have to go to the PC and switch your team around just to get past a tree or a boulder etc.

[Handsome Samurott]

These are just some of my quick thoughts on the subject:

- I would like the entire TM and HM system revamped.

- I would like to see a number of old TMs eliminated and new ones created. Also, reconfigure the power, accuracy, PP, and effects of existing TMs and HMs.

- I think moves that are useful primarily for competitive battling should be learned through move tutors rather than TMs. Preserve TMs for in-game battling. Pokemon is going too far in the direction of competitive battling to the point that the quality of the in-game experience is deteriorating.

- I would like to see one of two scenarios happen pertaining to HMs. (1) Eliminate them altogether and allow Pokemon to learn cut, fly, surf, etc. on the basis of their type and abilities; (2) Create HM slots for each Pokemon in addition to TM slots.

[Jake♫]

Originally Posted by Handsome Samurott

These are just some of my quick thoughts on the subject:

- I would like the entire TM and HM system revamped.

- I would like to see a number of old TMs eliminated and new ones created. Also, reconfigure the power, accuracy, PP, and effects of existing TMs and HMs.

- I think moves that are useful primarily for competitive battling should be learned through move tutors rather than TMs. Preserve TMs for in-game battling. Pokemon is going too far in the direction of competitive battling to the point that the quality of the in-game experience is deteriorating.

- I would like to see one of two scenarios happen pertaining to HMs. (1) Eliminate them altogether and allow Pokemon to learn cut, fly, surf, etc. on the basis of their type and abilities; (2) Create HM slots for each Pokemon in addition to TM slots.

Just because I think a lot of this is interesting, I just want to reply to each point (in hopes that I'll get a reply back!)

• Define rework the entire system (unless the other points were what you were getting at).
• It isn't really viable to rework a large amount of TMs just for the sake of doing. The only one that I can even think of that was buffed last generation was Giga Drain, which made sense since for what it was it shouldn't have had 5 PP (the power boost was just a nice addition!).
• I think there's already a lot of overlap between competitive moves and in-game moves (Scald, Roost, Giga Drain, Volt Switch, etc.). Besides, nothing is deteriorating the in-game experience since there's very few moves that are even in-game exclusive as it is (especially since Stealth Rock got removed),
• Yeah I have nothing to argue against removal of HMs =P

[XanderO]

Originally Posted by Jake♫

This I would just like to see you expand upon. Any particular reason you would like them left out? Personally, leaving them out is just discouraging to a lot of people who battle competitively, and it makes it much more difficult to actually make a Pokémon viable. I can understand keeping some things out so that move tutors actually have a purpose (which I feel that has been done well in the past, it gives a lot of things new toys to play with), but I don't see a point of keeping some of the more powerful TMs out of the game just for the sake of doing it. I guess I can understand leaving some of them out because they probably don't have as much use in-game as they would competitively, but even then I'd love to see some of them included in the Gen 6 TM list.

To limit the competitive use of TMs. If they keep them as unlimited then I hope that all of the TMs are smaller TMs that can help through the main game and give little use competitively. Make competition ready teams worth raising rather than just slapping on TMs like in B/W. I was so happy when moves like Dark Pulse and Stealth Rock were removed because it limited their use to a select few. Move Tutors should be the ones for competitive use, and since you have to earn either shards or Battle points to get them, it makes it more worth while to get them, plus limits them. Spreading all the super moves freely with no restrictions makes all the teams fairly boring as its easy to copy them if you know how.

Yes I prefer harder work for competitive teams. I disliked the easy to attain teams in B/W. I really wish they'd go back to one time use for TMs as I find infinite use a pointless change. Just make them all Move Tutors if they can be used infinitely. At least this way there'd be a way to control it.