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  #76    
Old March 11th, 2013, 04:26 PM
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This video is awesome...




Awesome..! And good luck. PHP is quirky, but you can really hammer things out fast with it... Also if you need to work with MySQL databases a lot: https://github.com/Archenoth/DBroker /shameless plug
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I think I'm doing PHP for Computer Science 30. I can't exactly remember, but it doesn't look easy at all.
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  #77    
Old March 11th, 2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by twocows View Post
For instance, take #define macros. Yes, these can be abused and in a very ugly way, but at least the relationship is still 1-to-1; you can guarantee that unhelpfulmacroname is going to expand to the same thing every time.
Actually, you can’t! Stuff is frequently defined in header files but anything you define can be clobbered by another header.

Code:
#include <a.h>
#include <b.h>
is not necessarily the same thing as
Code:
#include <b.h>
#include <a.h>
The preprocessor (specifically the combination of #include and #define) is one of C’s biggest weaknesses, along with string handling and general vulnerability to buffer overflows. There is a neat proposal to implement modules for C/C++ in LLVM; I hope it gains traction.
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Java's a dying language. Python's more popular now. The only real remaining uses for Java are Android and companies already stuck with Java.
I guess you’ve never been around companies that have fresh CS grads still believing in the wonders of Java. I have, and it’s really disheartening. Better languages have been gaining ground in academia (along with some worse ones), but Java isn’t going anywhere anytime soon…
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  #78    
Old March 11th, 2013, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Team Fail View Post
I think I'm doing PHP for Computer Science 30. I can't exactly remember, but it doesn't look easy at all.
PHP is a multi-paradigm language. That pretty much means that you can code using it in quite a few different ways. So you can just write little snippets of code to insert something inline quickly, which tends to be ugly:
Code:
echo 2 + 2;
Or you can write functions anywhere to allow you to code in a procedural style.
Code:
function add($x, $y)
{
   return $x + $y;
}

echo add(2, 2);
Or you can go object oriented and create classes in very much the same way as Java.

Code:
class Math{
  function add($x, $y)
  {
     return $x + $y;
  }
}

$math = new Math();
echo $math->add(2, 2);
As long as you have a paradigm figured out, it is incredibly easy to write in PHP. Its API is quite easy to browse, and there is quite a bit of example code in the documentation. Also if you can't figure something out, most PHP problems can be solved easily with Google because they most likely have been asked about a billion times before you start having issues, so it's really easy to find answers.

Also, if you ever write code with errors that causes you to have a blank screen, check the server log, it will tell you what you did wrong.

That said, I'm warning you now, there are a fair amount of criticisms for the language, so if you write anything in it, you'll hear these from pretty much everyone.

And while these criticisms are true, they don't really detract from the fact that you can really get a lot accomplished with very little PHP code, and it will usually be relatively readable. Much more so than one of the languages that it got a lot of ideas from: Perl. (As much as I like the language.)

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Last edited by Archenoth; March 11th, 2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #79    
Old March 11th, 2013, 09:33 PM
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I do programming as a job :) .

At work, I use PHP5 with the Zend Framework, JavaScript, CSS, sometimes Java, VBScript and C#.
Outside of my job, I sometimes code little things in C++.

I actually started a Sonic fangame written in C++ using the SDL library two years ago, but ultimately I switched back to using Gamemaker for such projects, mostly because it's multi-platform now, and because the messiest parts are already taken care of, like collision detection, I never got it to work right in C++ without tremendously slowing down the game.
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  #80    
Old March 14th, 2013, 09:31 PM
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Yes I program, I use C++, C#, HTML(Not actually a programming language),CSS, Javascript, PHP, MYSQL, I know a little Java and I am thinking about studying another, haven't made my mind up on which yet..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archenoth View Post
I'd say go C first... The things you pick up when learning C can be translated to C++ relatively easily. Also C is a really small language. It will make you work with pointers, with memory allocation, and quite a few low-level functions. It is also really portable if you avoid using system calls.

As for between Java and Python...

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html

I recommend Java because Java is a lot more popular, and a lot more ubiquitous... (Your C# knowledge would come in handy when learning it too.) It has a lot more real-world usage currently (I mean job-wise.) so knowing it would be an asset if you were to become a professional developer. But you could choose Python too if you want, but I can't really speak for Python since I don't know it.
I'm somewhat late to this discussion but I think your advice is for lack of a better word is incorrect...

I think any new programmer should avoid C at all costs, There is no need to actually learn it unless you planing on programming for iOS(Objective C) or something else that will only allow you to use C. I think even the iOS devices support more than just C(I could be wrong). Also learning C can make it more difficult to learn some concepts of C++ also C teaches bad programming habits and they will be hard to unlearn when learning or using C++
.
While your argument for C is valid
Quote:
Also C is a really small language. It will make you work with pointers, with memory allocation, and quite a few low-level functions.
C++ will also teach you these things and then some. While C++ is a huge language and a great undertaking once you know it and have grasped the concepts of the language any other language you chose to learn will be easy.. This is just my opinion..
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Last edited by KingCharizard; March 14th, 2013 at 09:52 PM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #81    
Old March 14th, 2013, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KingCharizard View Post
While your argument for C is valid
C++ will also teach you these things and then some. While C++ is a huge language and a great undertaking once you know it and have grasped the concepts of the language any other language you chose to learn will be easy.. This is just my opinion..
I have to agree with this assessment, even though I am no fan of C++ (or C for that matter), C does seem like a bad choice, with C# experience already present another language focusing on Object Oriented design seems like a good choice.

Though the question still asks what the goal of learning the new language?
If you want new viewpoints and expand the way you think I'd probably suggest something entirely different (A functional language perhaps)
If you want to actually learn something practical or are interested in system level programming, embedded applications, game development etc. then C++ (and sometimes C) might be the right choice.
If you are just doing it for fun/interest there may be be other unmanaged/hybrid (D - for example) that are worth considering.

Last edited by Yankas; March 15th, 2013 at 01:15 AM.
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  #82    
Old March 17th, 2013, 12:32 AM
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I agree. If it was just for learning programming in general, I would have suggested a Lisp like Clojure, since it has a completely different paradigm and has a lot of real-world application.

I think every programmer should learn at least one functional language, if only to gain insight into new ways to implement things in efficient ways in languages that support it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCharizard View Post
I'm somewhat late to this discussion but I think your advice is for lack of a better word is incorrect...

I think any new programmer should avoid C at all costs, There is no need to actually learn it unless you planing on programming for iOS(Objective C) or something else that will only allow you to use C. I think even the iOS devices support more than just C(I could be wrong). Also learning C can make it more difficult to learn some concepts of C++ also C teaches bad programming habits and they will be hard to unlearn when learning or using C++
.
While your argument for C is valid
C++ will also teach you these things and then some. While C++ is a huge language and a great undertaking once you know it and have grasped the concepts of the language any other language you chose to learn will be easy.. This is just my opinion..
Uhm... No offense but you should really re-read what I was responding to...

He was asking between C and C++, and learning C is definitely an asset to someone who eventually intends to be C++ programmer since the same concepts from C can be used when coding in C++. So while you are learning C, you are actually also learning C++ concepts. And since C is the smaller language, it is less of a hurdle to get to, a quicker payoff for learning something. So why not learn the smaller language with the same concepts so you can build on those if you choose to continue?

Also no, Objective C and C are not even remotely similar outside of the C-like code structure. Objective C is a high-level Object oriented language, whereas C is a Medium-level (Some will say low-level) procedural language.

Last edited by Archenoth; March 17th, 2013 at 12:38 AM.
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  #83    
Old March 17th, 2013, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Archenoth View Post
And since C is the smaller language, it is less of a hurdle to get to, a quicker payoff for learning something. So why not learn the smaller language with the same concepts so you can build on those if you choose to continue?
That isn't really a good point, imo, the first chapters of most C++ text books will likely look very similar to those of a C one. Just because C++ has a lot of complex language features, that does not mean that the fundamental ones become more difficult to learn.
C and C++ are different languages so it's simple really. If you want to learn C++ then you should learn C++ not C.
It might be easier to learn C in it's entirety than it is with C++ but you don't start studying a language in it's entirety you go with small incremental steps.
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  #84    
Old March 17th, 2013, 12:59 AM
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I see where you're coming from, and you are right. If you want to learn C++, go with C++.

But if you are unsure of which of the two you want to go for (Like the guy I was responding to was.), why not pick the one that takes less effort to learn and aids in learning the other?
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  #85    
Old March 17th, 2013, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Also no, Objective C and C are not even remotely similar outside of the C-like code structure. Objective C is a high-level Object oriented language, whereas C is a Medium-level (Some will say low-level) procedural language.
The same comparison could be made with C and C#.

I think C should be avoided, you obviously support it. Its ultimately up to him what he chooses, Enough said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archenoth View Post
I see where you're coming from, and you are right. If you want to learn C++, go with C++.

But if you are unsure of which of the two you want to go for (Like the guy I was responding to was.), why not pick the one that takes less effort to learn and aids in learning the other?

because it wont do him much good. C is still used but not alot anymore. C++ is the industry standard it doesnt matter if is games, software, apps etc is widely supported and documented. So why have him learn a language which wont be of much use to him..
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Last edited by KingCharizard; March 17th, 2013 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #86    
Old March 17th, 2013, 01:18 AM
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because it wont do him much good. C is still used but not alot anymore. C++ is the industry standard it doesnt matter if is games, software, apps etc is widely supported and documented. So why have him learn a language which wont be of much use to him..
C is less used huh?

https://github.com/languages
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html

And yes this is anecdotal, so things may be different for you but... I also see a lot more jobs out there that want C experience than I do C++ experience.
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  #87    
Old March 19th, 2013, 05:17 AM
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I've used C for years, and I can hardly see any reason why I should move to C++; I can easily see my code becoming obfuscated and confusing extremely quickly with basically any "feature" (read: liability) that C++ "adds" to C.

You could say "why not just use the C subset of C++?" But that would be missing my point, I think. In other words, "C++ sux, C is king", yadda yadda, you know my schpiel already.
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  #88    
Old March 19th, 2013, 12:05 PM
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I've used C for years, and I can hardly see any reason why I should move to C++; I can easily see my code becoming obfuscated and confusing extremely quickly with basically any "feature" (read: liability) that C++ "adds" to C.

You could say "why not just use the C subset of C++?" But that would be missing my point, I think. In other words, "C++ sux, C is king", yadda yadda, you know my schpiel already.
I understand you completely. I feel C++ was too rushed and it wasn't so well made... like it was a C with forced objects...
But with C++11, it might prove useful.
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  #89    
Old March 19th, 2013, 01:17 PM
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Just finished about two weeks worth of studying into Python. I won't say I know the language explicitly, but I have learnt a lot and for the most part, I like it. It's a quirky language, which is the best way to describe it for me!

...and I've given in and bought a C++ book too. I know C++ sucks but I really want to know the ins and outs of an unmanaged language before starting my degree in Computer Science and while it may not be the best of languages according to some, it's good enough for most professionals so I'll give it a whirl and see.
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  #90    
Old March 19th, 2013, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Serene Grace View Post
...and I've given in and bought a C++ book too. I know C++ sucks
It does not suck. Those people here who are against it couldnt or wouldnt try to understand the language. Its got its bad things as well as good, every language does but it wouldnt be used for countless games/game engines if it was such a bad language. Just look at EPIC Games and the Unreal Engine(C++ at its finest)... C++ is a great language for those who can understand it and use it properly
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Last edited by KingCharizard; March 19th, 2013 at 05:08 PM.
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  #91    
Old March 19th, 2013, 04:59 PM
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I tried compiling some open-source binaries with C++ and I must say, it's very complicated, even for a first-timer. (inb4 compiling isnt for n00bz)

Overall, programming is the weakest computer skill for me to work with. I have tried again and again to get a general fit for programming (through languages such as VB.NET, C#, and C++ as mentioned above), but I just can't seem to get the hang of it. Perhaps I need to take some classes on programming before I try again. :\
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  #92    
Old March 19th, 2013, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ZachLMedia View Post
I tried compiling some open-source binaries with C++ and I must say, it's very complicated, even for a first-timer. (inb4 compiling isnt for n00bz)

Overall, programming is the weakest computer skill for me to work with. I have tried again and again to get a general fit for programming (through languages such as VB.NET, C#, and C++ as mentioned above), but I just can't seem to get the hang of it. Perhaps I need to take some classes on programming before I try again. :\
Visual Studio could probably help you with your problem.
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  #93    
Old March 19th, 2013, 05:27 PM
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Visual Studio could probably help you with your problem.
Visual Studio is pretty nice to use, I must admit. Especially when there's Intellisense. It really helps with the capitalization, it's so nit picky on it.
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  #94    
Old March 20th, 2013, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KingCharizard View Post
It does not suck. Those people here who are against it couldnt or wouldnt try to understand the language. Its got its bad things as well as good, every language does but it wouldnt be used for countless games/game engines if it was such a bad language. Just look at EPIC Games and the Unreal Engine(C++ at its finest)... C++ is a great language for those who can understand it and use it properly
I wasn't actually being serious when I said C++ sucked, I was making fun of the fact that there are constant arguments online about C++ in which C fans slate its apparently rushed creation and C++ fans backlash by slating C's old fashioned practices.

Personally I think C++ is a promising language and, once I get to studying it properly tonight, I'll give my feedback into what I think about it. The main reason I'm learning it, though, is because it's an unmanaged language and I think it'll be helpful to learn a managed language before starting my degree in Computer Science (that, and I have a theory paper that has a section on Operating Systems which may contain memory management).

Also, what do you guys think of programming languages such as PHP who implemented an object oriented approach alongside their normal procedural approach - do you think languages should distinctively have one paradigm, or most programs should embrace both procedural and object oriented approaches, like PHP does?
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  #95    
Old March 20th, 2013, 02:33 AM
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Indeed. I'm against people on both sides of the C vs C++ argument here because people seem to love one and think that everyone else should avoid the other like the plague. That's not true. They both have their place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCharizard View Post
It does not suck. Those people here who are against it couldnt or wouldnt try to understand the language. Its got its bad things as well as good, every language does but it wouldnt be used for countless games/game engines if it was such a bad language. Just look at EPIC Games and the Unreal Engine(C++ at its finest)... C++ is a great language for those who can understand it and use it properly
ID software also writes beautiful code...
https://github.com/TTimo/doom3.gpl.git

Seriously, you don't even need to know C++ to understand it for the most part.

Hey look! They are writing to a save file! Oh my, they have a function to restore it below!
They are the masters of readable code. This guy did a code review of the entire codebase.

It's also crazily efficient and modular, even their older engines are like this. The Quake 3 engine, ID's older engine (Made in 2000) is still in use: The Call of Duty games use a modified version of it with physics hooks and camera effect patches to this day.

I agree. C++ does not suck. If you give it time, you may actually like the language and its features. They don't have to be a liability.

Last edited by Archenoth; March 20th, 2013 at 02:49 AM.
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  #96    
Old March 20th, 2013, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Also, what do you guys think of programming languages such as PHP who implemented an object oriented approach alongside their normal procedural approach - do you think languages should distinctively have one paradigm, or most programs should embrace both procedural and object oriented approaches, like PHP does?
PHP... its.. well.., its different.. But if you expect to do any web/server programming its a must have. I am using it right now to work on a personal project.
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  #97    
Old March 20th, 2013, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Serene Grace View Post
Also, what do you guys think of programming languages such as PHP who implemented an object oriented approach alongside their normal procedural approach - do you think languages should distinctively have one paradigm, or most programs should embrace both procedural and object oriented approaches, like PHP does?
I like multi-paradigm languages, because they can be used to a great deal of effectiveness in quite a few different situations. With PHP you can write things inline for really small bits of quick code. You can write functions for simple repeatable things you may do often. Or you can create APIs and well-structured programs with the Object Oriented paradigm.

Of course, that is really open to abuse, especially when you start to mix these paradigms. To make matters worse, PHP can also support limited functional programming.

I suppose the saying "With great power comes great responsibility." applies here. You have the tools to shoot yourself in the foot, and they are powerful tools indeed. So you have to be careful.

As for your second question. I don't think that languages in general need to follow any specific rules other than to fulfill their original purpose. Strongly typed languages and single-paradigm languages are normally more difficult for beginners because they restrict what they can do, but they also have less room for abuse. Beginners will get less done, but you'll be able to understand what the heck they are doing. Loosely typed languages and/or incredibly dynamic multi-paradigm languages are easier to use and you can usually get a lot more accomplished with them in a sorter amount of time. But if you give that to a beginner, they will get more done, but you will also very likely get the world's worst headache trying to read their code.

It ends up being an experience thing, and a productivity thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Fail View Post
Visual Studio is pretty nice to use, I must admit. Especially when there's Intellisense. It really helps with the capitalization, it's so nit picky on it.
Anything with semantic code autocompletion and error/warning checking is awesome I find. Eclipse IDE has really awesome error/warning checking and code completion as well. Also for things that aren't IDEs, Emacs has a pretty good semantic-mode too.

Last edited by Archenoth; March 20th, 2013 at 03:29 AM.
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  #98    
Old March 20th, 2013, 03:19 AM
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Visual Studio could probably help you with your problem.
Yeah, VS is like messiah for programmers :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCharizard View Post
It does not suck. Those people here who are against it couldnt or wouldnt try to understand the language. Its got its bad things as well as good, every language does but it wouldnt be used for countless games/game engines if it was such a bad language. Just look at EPIC Games and the Unreal Engine(C++ at its finest)... C++ is a great language for those who can understand it and use it properly
Dude... Windows' are coded in C++ and we all know how stable and quick they are...
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Old March 20th, 2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Archenoth View Post
I like multi-paradigm languages, because they can be used to a great deal of effectiveness in quite a few different situations. With PHP you can write things inline for really small bits of quick code. You can write functions for simple repeatable things you may do often. Or you can create APIs and well-structured programs with the Object Oriented paradigm.

Of course, that is really open to abuse, especially when you start to mix these paradigms. To make matters worse, PHP can also support limited functional programming.

I suppose the saying "With great power comes great responsibility." applies here. You have the tools to shoot yourself in the foot, and they are powerful tools indeed. So you have to be careful.

As for your second question. I don't think that languages in general need to follow any specific rules other than to fulfill their original purpose. Strongly typed languages and single-paradigm languages are normally more difficult for beginners because they restrict what they can do, but they also have less room for abuse. Beginners will get less done, but you'll be able to understand what the heck they are doing. Loosely typed languages and/or incredibly dynamic multi-paradigm languages are easier to use and you can usually get a lot more accomplished with them in a sorter amount of time. But if you give that to a beginner, they will get more done, but you will also very likely get the world's worst headache trying to read their code.

It ends up being an experience thing, and a productivity thing.
I completely agree with the statement in bold. I know it sounds a bit backwards but I believe that a multi-paradigm language makes for bad programming practice.

When a programming language, such as Java, forces you to work in an object oriented methods rather than just giving you the option to code in either object oriented or procedural methods, it allows you to make the most of the benefits of object oriented - which is reusable code with good design. On the flip side, a procedural based language that doesn't give you the options to have any object oriented methods (which I believe C and Javascript are) are straightforward in the sense that they're for mocking up quick pieces of code (in my opinion, anyway) and anything more will confuse (or at least make it harder to make significant changes quickly) the programmer, even with good comments, six months or so down the line when they come to change the code.

I also agree with your second statement. Beginners should learn in a single-paradigm language because of they understand the scope of the language that they're using and can then achieve more in quicker time. Therefore, once they move on to multi-paradigm languages, they can start to understand the positives of using such a language and be able to squeeze the most out of those languages.

It's funny, before studying it, I always thought object oriented paradigm was so confusing and now I don't program in anything but that style. Still, I would love to learn a fully procedural language such as C but it all seems so... messy to me.

While I do know PHP, I always use it in an object oriented fashion, therefore I still technically don't know a procedural language! XD
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Old March 20th, 2013, 12:09 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCharizard View Post
Visual Studio could probably help you with your problem.
The thing is, when I made that post, I was actually thinking about Visual Studio. It does seem nice and all, but I have just never been able to understand anything towards general computer programming >_<
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