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  #76    
Old April 6th, 2013 (08:20 PM).
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Again this is all just assumptions, you dont know this for sure and wont if/when we go to war with them. Yea it seems we would win but crazier things have happened in the world. Think back to Hannibal and Rome. He didnt really beat rome but he caused them great damage and loss of life. If rome didnt resort to cheap tatics by cutting off the carthaginians food supply hannibal might have crushed rome...

I'm just saying its possible we could lose, china could support NK and russia as well.. I wish people would stop being so arrogant, hell this country was founded by us defeating the British which no one thought we ever could..
It's not completely assumption. Chemical armour strength can be measured as an equivalent of mm steel. Modern tanks are armed with grills to help defeat shaped charge by dissapating their concentrated force before it hits the chassis. They are also armed with active protection systems that can detect incoming missiles and destroy them. Plus you have thermal sites, rangefinders, computers, and all sorts of gadgets that make the comparison between North Korean and US armour like feature phones vs. smartphones. We know the amazing amount of tech Western armies are equipped with, and we know what they can do from experience in Iraq/Afghanistan. We also know how Saddam's tanks were no match for the M1 Abrams and air power. The terrain in North Korea is really hilly and difficult to navigate, so American air superiority be ever crucial in dominating a land army operating on rough ground. They're not just assumptions, they're educated estimates based on things we know. And Russia has other things to worry about, they're not even communist anymore. China wouldn't want a war with the US - and that seems to me to be a bottom line. Actually the real bottom line is to not compromise Chinese security, so if the US gets really suspicious with its invasion, maybe China will intervene. But if the US knows what's good for itself and the rest of the world - and it undoubtedly does - they would not do something so rash as to provoke the Chinese to attack.
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  #77    
Old April 6th, 2013 (08:47 PM). Edited April 6th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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While even old tanks can kill, they can generally only kill other old tanks. Speaking of old, the majority of their tanks are old T-55's.

Against a M1 Abram, a T-55's main cannon wouldn't do jack ****. The rounds would, quite literally, bounce off of a Abrams armor. Meanwhile, a Abram's main gun could punch a hole right through. If they line up targets right, might end up taking out two in a shot.

Their Pokpung-ho and Ch'onma-ho tanks would pose more of a threat - That is, if the information we have is correct and not exaggerated. Which, with N. Korea's history of loud talk, is most likely the case.

With the majority of N. Korea's tanks being Soviet era, and their poor economy, their army is pretty much held together by duct tape.

N. Korea's airforce is much of the same - Old tech. Mig-21's make up the bulk of it. Even the now outdated F16's could scrap these with minimal effort.

The only real threat are their small number of Mig-29's. Nothing a F15 can't handle though.

I'm not even going to explain how ****ed N. Korea's airforce would be against F22s. Lets just say what the Fighting Falcons and Strike Eagles can do in minutes, the Raptor can do in seconds, even with how many issues it has.

As for the rest of N. Korea's airforce, it's literally target practice. That is, if they can even fly - If they could, due to the poor economy and most likely not being able to afford proper maintenance and repairs, I wouldn't be that surprised if they fell apart during a turn, or the engine decides to go kaboom while accelerating.

The only real threat is their Artillery units - And thats only because of proximity.

You have a point though on their infantry weapons though. In this case they would still be able to kill.
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  #78    
Old April 6th, 2013 (08:56 PM).
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The two Ho's are also undergunned and have weaker mobility than even a heavyweight like the M1 Abrams. They probably have better fuel economy, but the war wouldn't last long enough for that to be important anyways.
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  #79    
Old April 6th, 2013 (09:04 PM).
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According to info from a defected N. Korean general, they didn't have fuel for military exercises. This is old information though, but if true then they would have to have good fuel economy.

By more of a threat I mean that instead of poking a rock (Abrams) with a toothpick (T55), North Korea has moved up to using a stick (The Ho tanks). Still not going to do anything but it's an improvement... I guess.
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  #80    
Old April 6th, 2013 (09:36 PM).
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LOL I meant it as a joke because North Korea has no fuel and the M1 Abrams guzzles gasoline like an alcoholic. But yeah, you bringing up the ho's had me scared - for all of a second XD The only thing the KPA is good for is doing relatively discriminate amounts of damage.
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  #81    
Old April 6th, 2013 (09:42 PM).
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I just don't understand North Korea's president, does he want peace or war?
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  #82    
Old April 7th, 2013 (02:05 AM).
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I just don't understand North Korea's president, does he want peace or war?
He wants peace but with the country standing in the boder of economic meltdown for decades, the only way to stop a revolution is keeping the country ready for a fantastic war against an imaginary enemy- namely the US and their Empire and all of that. Without a foreign "threat" to keep them unite, the citizens might start to wonder why they can't have three daily meals all seven days a week.

Not to mention Un was picked to be the next country dictator because he was the "less bad" son in Il's family- he's not really trained for leadership, he's too young in a country full of really old people, and all rumours say his father-in-law is really the one calling the shots and keeping the military at bay. If he doesn't do anything to prove his leadership soon, he risks a coup d'etat from his own army. And the best way to stop that is keeping them busy studying plans to invade California.

Plus, if he gets to negotiate food for "good behaviour", the better for him.

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Originally Posted by twocows
Having a loaded gun is a lot different than firing a loaded gun. Or in this case, pointing a loaded gun at a room full of armed police officers with their assault rifles trained on you and making empty threats at them is a lot different than firing that gun at them.
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  #83    
Old April 7th, 2013 (12:12 PM).
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The US not only declared it would tone down its rhetoric, it also delays a missile test because of rising tensions. What do you think this means? Actual fear of a North Korean threat, or trying to undercut North Korean rhetoric?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americ...341732178.html
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  #84    
Old April 7th, 2013 (12:17 PM).
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More like deciding we don't want to get into another, costly, war.

We'll retaliate should they attack, but still - We'd rather not find ourselves in another war.
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  #85    
Old April 7th, 2013 (05:15 PM).
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Really? So you know for a fact that is what they are trying to achieve? He has said this? Really? I must have missed that.
You're right, he COULD just be an incompetent idiot, in which case he'd get stomped by every country on all sides and quickly be made into an irrelevant crater. But that's unlikely, because as both of have agreed, they're NOT idiots. Any head of state is going to have some coaching on international politics and foreign policy. Moreover, they're going to be at least somewhat self-motivated. Kim Jong Un, and moreover, most of his staff, is perfectly aware of what would happen if they launched an attack. It would not end well for them. There's only one explanation for why he would be threatening it, and it's something that's already been established by dozens of expert political analysts and makes perfect sense. That explanation is that he is that he is showing he can stand up to the international community to solidify his very tenuous position as head of state.
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I understand perfectly, I also understand its never actually gone this far.
False. North Korea has declared war on the US or South Korea a total of five times since the Korean War ceasefire.
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I also know even if he sends weapons out no one will still be willing to talk. I also know all this started over broken deals and a nuclear test and/or N korea wanting to launch a satellite into orbit. I also know that they didn't need to put the sanctions on them like they did. Why cant N. Korea launch a satellite into orbit? We have thousands and so do most other countries... It just seems we do our best to maintain power around the world by not letting other countries advance..
I can name several reasons and I'm not even well-versed on the topic. First, because they've threatened to "turn South Korea into a hellscape of fire" or something to that effect (something which they are currently unable to do), and all of the programs the international community has protested against are things that could help them accomplish this goal in some way. Second, because they refuse any significant contact with the outside world; if they sent up a satellite under those conditions, it would probably run into another satellite and destroy it. Third, because developing a nuclear program without any regulation or outside input could very well lead to them blowing THEMSELVES up and making the entire area radioactive. And even if they didn't, see point one.

I'm sure you can use Google if you'd like more reasons. I'm sure nothing I've said hasn't been mentioned already by the mainstream media.
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  #86    
Old April 7th, 2013 (05:36 PM).
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I figure that the US could be trying to defeat NK in a war of words by being the "nice guy" in hopes that NK's antics become more and more irrelevant. When their last real weapon of diplomatic threat disappears, then they would truly be defanged, although they would be all the while more dangerous as they would have nothing but plan B's.
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  #87    
Old April 7th, 2013 (05:37 PM).
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The difference though is the leader - This is the first war threat (I think) made by Jong Un so we really can't say how it will turn out. Might be like his father - Just talking **** - but he might try to stay to his threats.
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  #88    
Old April 7th, 2013 (10:53 PM).
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But again, if they turn their threats into action, they'll win absolutely zero and stand to suffer infinite loss. As young and inexperienced he might be, he needs to be downright brainless to go ahead with them.
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  #89    
Old April 7th, 2013 (11:02 PM).
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To make the threats in the first place shows a lack of intelligence.

Anyway...

http://rt.com/news/korea-fourth-nuclear-test-473/
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  #90    
Old April 8th, 2013 (01:58 PM).
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To make the threats in the first place shows a lack of intelligence.
He knows nobody's going to do anything, and he's desperate to legitimize his rule within the state.
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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"- Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980) [source]
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  #91    
Old April 8th, 2013 (02:11 PM).
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and he's desperate to legitimize his rule within the state.
To who? How does a supreme leader need to prove themselves? Do the citizens know its all a facade?
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Old April 8th, 2013 (03:29 PM).
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To who? How does a supreme leader need to prove themselves? Do the citizens know its all a facade?
As I said in an earlier post, to the military. That's generally where a coup d'état starts.
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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"- Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980) [source]
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  #93    
Old April 8th, 2013 (03:32 PM). Edited April 8th, 2013 by Gyardosamped.
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Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 View Post
To who? How does a supreme leader need to prove themselves? Do the citizens know its all a facade?
The problem is that the North Korean people don't know it's all a façade. Many have been brainwashed for years to think that their country is the strongest in the world on many levels. Kim Jon-Un is fairly new to the political system left by his forefathers (what can be considered communism), and he's also fairly young. He needs to gain support within his own country and among his generals if he wishes to get anywhere. He also wants to "scare" the international community into thinking he's some sort of paramount ruler that has the Earth's fate in his hands. The sad part is that his generals are probably going to continue to run the show regardless of whether he thinks he's on top or not. He might not be a supreme leader to the international community, but he's greatly idolized by his own people, although most are starving and living in deplorable conditions. They have no other way of knowing what's going on in North Korea or around the world except for what they see in the censored state news that is broadcast throughout the country, and this obviously bias news station depicts North Korea as being a powerful country that the rest of the world is afraid of. We all know the truth, though, but that's just how communism works. If war were to ever break out, I really feel bad for the innocent people living in North Korea, because they are pretty much just products of a corrupt system and regime.
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  #94    
Old April 8th, 2013 (06:07 PM).
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To who? How does a supreme leader need to prove themselves? Do the citizens know its all a facade?
A military dictatorship it may be, but that doesn't mean that all the power is Jong Un's. He also has senior Communist Party officials to worry about. There's always politics to be played within any regime in any country.
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Old April 8th, 2013 (09:03 PM).
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So today I learned that the Korean peninsula had a 99% chance of going communist had the US not intervened.

After the fall of the Japanese, there was a People's Republic of Korea managing a provisional government in the South, as well as a Provisional Government of the Republic of Korea in exile in Shanghai. There were also many grassroots people's committees being organized all over the countries. The military occupation didn't like this one bit, as they thought the whole arrangement to be too communist. So they ignored the existing and developing interim governments, and decided to continue military rule.

They ended up appointing Syngman Rhee, an anti-communist ex-member of the Provisional Government of the ROK who was impeached from its leadership 20 years ago for corruption and the abuse of authority (read: he had a dictator's personality). This wasn't enough, so they cracked down on leftist elements like revolutionary organizations and the labour unions. This culminated in an uprising throughout Southern Korea in 1946, with citizens clamouring for socialist goals such as higher wages, the right to organize, and better working conditions. The US military government responded with martial law, police power, strikebreakers, and sending in troops. This ended up crushing the power of the leftist movement in South Korea.

Rhee ended up elected as President of the ROK, but this is after a brutal repression of leftists, torturing/eliminating political enemies, and using the military to shut down rebellions. Repression and corruption become the norms during his role, and a communist insurgency develops. The US doesn't want to send him weapons because they wanted only a defensive military. The North Koreans, however, were much better equipped and by 1950 they were streaming over the 38th parallel, beginning the Korean War. The rest, they say, is history.

Rhee ended up removing term limits and rigging elections. After having the police shoot at demonstrators, Rhee decides that was enough repression for a lifetime and resigns peacefully. There was another dictator, Park Chung-hee, who ruled South Korea for 16 years. Somewhere along the way a whole lot of US aid got thrown in, and the democracy happened and you got your Samsung Galaxy SIII's.

It's rather similar to most other US occupations - entering a foreign country with no understanding of the indigenous culture, eliminating the people determined undesirable under American ideology, bringing in an obscure and dictatorial leader as "our own dog in the fight", and then establishing democracy after the political opposition has been neutralized. You can look in Asia, Latin America, and Africa for similar examples. Except this one ends with smartphones.

I do love Samsung products and Korean cars are great, and my music world would not be complete without K-pop. But it's interesting to wonder how things could have turned out had the US decided to go with the flow of land and people. Undoubtedly North Korea, or shall we say Red Korea wouldn't be stockpiling nukes, starving its people for an army - as their would be no purpose for that, and there wouldn't be screaming hellfire and brimstone against the United States, because it wouldn't be an enemy. Without an atmosphere of fear I doubt that the military would grow to be the power it is today. I wouldn't say there would be a democratic transition - but who's to say that there wouldn't have been one? And surely they would have transitioned to a capitalist economy like China is doing right now. If you read the history of North Korea, you will find that there were plenty of opportunities for change that were nipped away one by one.

South Korea, as we know it today, is not simply glitz and glamour but a product of US intervention. We the youth have clear memories of Iraq and Afghanistan, and our parents and grandparents can remember Vietnam. In the middle were plenty of Cold War conflicts involving US-backed coups and dictators, but nobody seems to remember those. It was mindblowing for me to look back at the history of the Korean peninsula to understand how it all came to be today. Perhaps there would have been peace in Korea had things gone the way history intended.

--
tl;dr - I read some history of NK and learned how SK came to be at the expense of local governments and the people's wishes. This doesn't excuse NK's behaviour today, but it is very sobering to put today's situation in its historical context. I thought it would be a good idea to bring to you guys a slice of history that is so relevant but unheard of. Don't start boycotting Samsung smartphones - those are great.
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  #96    
Old April 8th, 2013 (09:30 PM).
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I've thought about that too, would Korea had gone the route of Eastern Europe, and Chian had we not intervened? The US almost came close to doing that with China too, but Truman decided to avoid it. In the end the fall of China to Communism led to the fear that others will follow, Korea and Vietnam became those places, thus why the U.S. became so hardline on containment during the 50's and onwards until the fall of communism in Europe (eastern and Russia/Soviet Union). Could the U.S. have unknowly made things worse than if we hadn't tried to contain it? creating a presurized bottle in the process that now threatens to explode in the region.
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Old April 8th, 2013 (10:49 PM).
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@BlahisSuck: I'm personally glad a part of the country got out of a tyrannical dictatorship and got to enjoy freedom. Peace at the cost of slavery is not worth it.

This also proves how the key to turning corrupt regimes into democracies is not as much the Americans opening war against the State but them throwing money in return for milestones- free elections, free markets, etc. The carrot is much more successful than the bomb.
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  #98    
Old April 8th, 2013 (10:58 PM). Edited April 8th, 2013 by Mr. X.
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http://rt.com/news/pyongyang-foreign...on-koreas-545/

Now they are telling foreigners in South Korea to vacate.

Also, some rumors are that N. Korea is planning another nuclear test. In light of this...

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Old April 9th, 2013 (04:29 AM).
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http://rt.com/news/pyongyang-foreign...on-koreas-545/

Now they are telling foreigners in South Korea to vacate.

Also, some rumors are that N. Korea is planning another nuclear test. In light of this...


Yea i just read that on CNN, its gotten to the point where his threats aren't getting him nowhere and to keep making these threats would be pointless. I highly doubt at this point he intends to stop either, IMO its only a matter of time before WAR is officially declared and we invade..
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Old April 9th, 2013 (06:43 AM).
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I've lost the link to this and am to lazy to look for it but N. Korea has hinted at something happening on the 10th. I think.
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