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  #101    
Old April 9th, 2013, 08:47 AM
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@BlahisSuck: I'm personally glad a part of the country got out of a tyrannical dictatorship and got to enjoy freedom. Peace at the cost of slavery is not worth it.

This also proves how the key to turning corrupt regimes into democracies is not as much the Americans opening war against the State but them throwing money in return for milestones- free elections, free markets, etc. The carrot is much more successful than the bomb.
One of my main arguments was that there wouldn't have been a tyrannical dictatorship had there not been a division. The military would not achieve the relevance it has without a war and the South, and while the government may still be authoritarian, life in Korea wouldn't be terrible. You can compare it to China and Vietnam today - fast growing economies without democracy, but a rising quality of life and relative freedom for the majority. It certainly wouldn't be slavery if you take that to be what North Korea is today - because it wouldn't be North Korea, and I don't know if you'd describe life in China as slavery.

And you say "got to enjoy freedom" like it's nothing but the Korean people worked for it after decades of coups after one another, dictators after one another, repression and martial law. It took over 40 years for the South Koreans to achieve democracy as they practice it today. I'm not sure what you mean by slavery, but the South Koreans did not enjoy American-style rights and freedoms until 1987. Human rights awareness in the national consciousness didn't kick in until 1992. Democracy is a process, not a mere entitlement but something that is earned. It isn't so simple as leaving a dictatorship and establishing democracy like a 1-2 process.

It's easy to bash "slavery" when we live in North America, because we live in so much wealth and when a poor standard of living is caused by less rights and freedoms than more of it. In developing Asian countries, even an authoritarian government can ensure rising incomes and lowering poverty instead of causing it. Peace - material security is a priority in many areas of the world less developed than ours, so I feel it is an oversimplification to make the description "peace at the cost of slavery".
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  #102    
Old April 9th, 2013, 10:24 AM
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I don't live in America- I live in Spain, the European country with the forgotten fascist dictator (Paco Franco) who was allowed to roam free between 1939 and 1975 with the approval of the powers that be, including the US, because he was an ardent anti-communist and once his friends Adolf and Benito were dead he wasn't so dangerous anymore- the new bad guys were the commies!

During the 60's, our country enjoyed a period of fast growth -our GDP increased threefold in 10 years- and there were all sorts of security. At the cost of what? Well, "relative freedoms", as in, no voting or anything similar (ahaha), no writing anything against the official Party line, no demonstrations, no leaving the country without permission, and the constant threat of disappearing in a police station if you ever did something "suspicious", like handing pamphlets asking for the ability to elect our leaders.

Our process to obtain democracy started in the early 70's, with Franco agonyzing at a hospital, and we didn't finally get rid of the leading party until 1982. So I know what you are talking about.

We know that, after the war, a part of the peninsula was given a somewhat western-ish-esque system that developed, after a long and difficult process, into what SK can enjoy today. Meanwhile, the part that fell in the hands of Kim-il Sung became a crazy Stalinist state (and by "slavery", I mean negation of most individual rights- which is what they have today. Everyone must wear an Il Sung pin to be allowed to go outside? What?). You say that, without the intervention of the US, the country would have evolved, not being so dependent on the military. The problem is, Russia, their main allies through and through, were the main responsibles for encouraging such a behaviour. And, unlike Communist Germany, they had China to take their place instead and keep encouraging and subsidizing them. I personally think that, without that war, all of Korea would have fallen the same steps. In any dictatorship, the military is going to take on a leading role as they "protect" the system from the citizens- maybe not to this levels of crazy, but would have been relevant after all. That's why I think that the US original involvement was positive- at least for a part of the population, which managed to develop into a democratic country.
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  #103    
Old April 9th, 2013, 11:45 AM
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North Korea does not have any allies through and through. They broke with the Soviets, as did the Chinese around the 60's with the ascent of Khrushchev and the Soviet abandoning on the Stalinist model. They also took advantage of this to break apart from the Chinese as well. The North Korean regime is also very anti-Chinese for the amount of aid they're getting. The Chinese used to have their people in North Korea, but they were sidelined as Kim Il Sung took absolute power. As well, China has been repairing relations with the US since the end of the Mao period. The North Korean interests have deviated from Soviet and Chinese interests for a long time. I don't know why you think the ex-communist countries are staunch allies. All of them had different views on communism and each other's regimes. If the Soviets and China helped encourage North Korean behaviour, it's probably because they figured that the two powers couldn't be trusted. What you claim about North Korea's former communist allies is just not true, at least not from my reading of history.

One of the reasons that the North Koreans have so little rights is to prevent them from learning about the prosperity in South Korea, which would undermine whatever legitimacy there is for the regime. Under a united Korea, this wouldn't occur. There also wouldn't be any anti-Americanism in the way we see it now, as China opened up to the US during the 70's and the Soviets during the late 80's. You say that North Korea would follow the same steps. Well I would agree to the point that South Korea and Spain also went through the same steps of military rule leading up to economic and democratic reform. It is highly unlikely, for the reasons I listed above, that North Korea would have any parallel to its regime today. In addition to uniting Korea, the Kim regime will have to deal with South Korean socialist and left-wing moderates instead of having a military core strengthened by war, the South, and breaking away from the Soviet Union and China. A Korea united under the North should at least be similar to Vietnam and China, but perhaps more so like China because it wouldn't be devastated by decades of war. In fact, a united Korea would be more industrialized than China was when it started. Hypothetically, if the two countries industrialized at the same time, Korea would end up industrializing faster.

The best reason I say that a united Korea would be different is the simple fact that there is no South. There is really no reason that a Korea united under the North would not open itself to the international community and trade. The only reason it cannot do that is because the regime would become irrelevant vs. the South. Remove this obstacle and there is really nothing stopping reform. In fact, North Korea as been starting to juggle economic reform recently. Let's not forget this time last year, everybody was speculating if the political shuffles going on meant that North Korea was preparing for reform. Reform is something that they have to consider in the context of its relationship to the south. If there was no south, there wouldn't be that obstacle.

Edit: To avoid double posting, Pak Pong-ju has been appointed Prime Minsiter, head of government, of Nort h Korea. He is reform-minded and well regarded in the defector community. There is another personality, Jang Sung-taek who is the uncle-in-law of Kim Jong-un, who has been to China to consider the formation of Special Economic Zones. For those of you who don't know, SEZ's have more free market-oriented policies than the rest of the countries - basically to encourage foreign investment. They've worked in China, so there are people in the leadership of North Korea who are still looking to liberalize their economy.
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  #104    
Old April 9th, 2013, 02:02 PM
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Without the war Korea would've had a difficult time finding a scapegoat to blame for it's troubles...well unless we (the U.S.) tried to take out their leader much like what we've tried to do with Cuba's, and even with the now departed Hugo Chavez. The country would proably be in the same position as Cuba, not as good as we'll like but not as bad as what it has now imo.
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  #105    
Old April 9th, 2013, 02:30 PM
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I think it is a country trapped in a bygone era, with a model establishment taken from mid-1900s USSR. Pyongyang even looks like Moscow from the 1970s.

The DPRK never signed a peace treaty with the South so they are technically still at war.

China is North Korea's closest ally. Both are communist and share borders. China is more concerned with its global standing than North Korea, though. It sees DPRK as a sort of diversion for the USA from other issues around that area ie China defending Taiwan. If Korea were to be reunited, then the USA would be able to have troops directly next door to China long-term. Furthermore they share similar ideals. They're both communist states. That's why, in my opinion, China supports DPRK.

I don't think DPRK will go to war. It'll make threats and slowly this news will die down. I think the new leader is trying to gain affirmation from NK citizens who doubt him. So the best way to do this is to threaten major countries of the world.
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  #106    
Old April 9th, 2013, 06:38 PM
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I have to object to liberal usage of "communist". If you mean that they are both ruled by communist parties, then yes they are communist. Are these parties revolutionary? In fact they are conservative parties, hardly revolutionary and increasingly difficult to enact change. The Communist Party of China (CPC) isn't looking towards the establishment of a stateless, classless society - okay maybe in a 1000 years, but we know that's not what's on the table when it comes to party meetings. What they are concerned about is improving free trade, encouraging foreign investment, and encouraging domestic entrepreneurship - at least in an economically equitable framework, but define that how you will because there is a capitalist class in China who own the means of production privately. There isn't even commun-ism in China anymore, as communal agriculture was disbanded long ago and the private sector is booming.

As for North Korea, I don't know if there were any developments recently, but the private sector is probably tiny, basically a black market, so economically, yes they are still collectivized and state-directed. But North Korea isn't even Marxist-Leninist anymore, they've replaced that with the Juche ideology. Korea can never be communist because the culture is far too nationalist. The Soviet Union was actually communist in this sense because they tried to break down the national identities of the countries that formed it and replace it with a Soviet citizenship. That would never happen in Korea, and not in Japan or China for that matter because East Asians are just too damn nationalist XD. Anyways the culture of North Korea is highly ethnically chauvinist and xenophobic, things we would usually call the far-right.

From the above it's pretty clear that they don't share similar ideals. China is looking to modernize its economy, broaden its trade relations and gain political influence in East Asia. North Korea seems hell-bent on preserving the party's status and power. You're right that China supports North Korea partially out of preventing US troops on its borders, but a united Korea would probably get rid of US troops as quickly as possible. First of all, because nobody would want US troops on Chinese borders on that point because it is an absolutely obsolete relic of the Cold War, and will do nothing but raise tensions. Of course it may be the goal of a future conservative South Korean or American administration to keep things the way they are, but at least we've taken out a big reason for keeping them there. Of course the US has bases in Pakistan and Kyrgyzstan already so China might be okay as long as the US doesn't boost troop sizes or add more bases. I would qualify the use of "ally" as well, as Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally of the US and we all know how wonderful that relationship is. To add more context, article two of the Sino-North Korean Mutual Aid and Cooperation Friendship Treaty says: "the two signatory nations guarantee to adopt immediately all necessary measures to oppose any country or coalition of countries that might attack either nation". Hahahahahaha like that's going to happen.

But yes, this probably isn't going to lead to war. Jon Huntsman is probably a really good authority as he was Ambassador to China, so he actually knows what he's talking about. Here's an example of the expertise of a diplomat vs. a journalist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4K5Celh4Fk
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  #107    
Old April 9th, 2013, 07:57 PM
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http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...l-out-war?lite

He truly is just a kid with big toys... and no leadership skills whatsoever... Now they're telling foreigners to evacuate too. 7000 Australians evacuated the other day.. (last week i think). and today is the day it's apparently ment to happen (as of posting this it is 12:57, 10th of April in North Korea).

Today is the day to hold our breaths I guess..
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  #108    
Old April 9th, 2013, 09:14 PM
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They're just doing test launches. It's so easy to pick out parts of a sentence and cite only those parts. Breaking news, news stations embellish their headlines. I'm too lazy to pull up the articles right now. Maybe later.
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  #109    
Old April 11th, 2013, 09:47 AM
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If NK would try to nuke someplace, they would face annihilation. Which i was hoping and praying. The US would be forced to destroy NK and millions of people will die forcefully because of the rash actions of their young leader. Kim Jong Un may not be Stalin, but maybe much worse if this things will continue.
Kim Jong Un knew the military capabilities of US and its allies which gave him the benefit of the doubt not to lunchan all out war. So for now trolling around with this "threats" would suffice. And I can't believe China's buddies with NK.

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Originally Posted by bradenm View Post
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...l-out-war?lite

He truly is just a kid with big toys... and no leadership skills whatsoever... Now they're telling foreigners to evacuate too. 7000 Australians evacuated the other day.. (last week i think). and today is the day it's apparently ment to happen (as of posting this it is 12:57, 10th of April in North Korea).

Today is the day to hold our breaths I guess..
They should've chosen a more capable leader. I don't know how they've chosen their leader, but they sure have chosen the uh... I'm not gonna say it. It reminds me of early japanese emperors, only following their councilors. Glad I moved out from my hometown to the capital. The place I'm from I'm dangerously close to NK.
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Last edited by ♣Gawain♣; April 11th, 2013 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Your double post has been automatically merged.
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  #110    
Old April 11th, 2013, 10:05 AM
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Gahh, for the last time, it is not so simple as China's buddies with North Korea! I've provided a youtube video in my last post that illustrates how complex the problem actually is. And it's also not as simple as the US being forced to destroy North Korea. No country is forced to do anything - it does everything out of its own self interest. So South Korea wasn't forced to do anything to the North when it got one of its ships blown up and artillery that killed several soldiers and civilians. Anybody who believes otherwise is listening to an excuse. And Kim Jong Un is not trolling.

I think we the people need to be more prudent when it comes to considering international issues, because they are complex and morally ambivalent. Oversimplifying will only promote narrow-minded thinking that does not consider the big picture. The best example of this is how a lot of American believed that the war in Iraq was related to Saddam Hussein working with al-Qaeda. It's this lack of critical thinking that allows the US Government to conflate Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and have the mass media/public believe it!
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  #111    
Old April 11th, 2013, 11:38 AM
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It's this lack of critical thinking that allows the US Government to conflate Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and have the mass media/public believe it!
I like this last line, and I completely agree with your post. Its not that simple, it never is. There is always the gray area that most people are ignorant of.
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  #112    
Old April 11th, 2013, 03:12 PM
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CNN is reporting that a new study conducted by an agency under the U.S. Department of Defense claims that North Korea may have a nuclear warhead that has the potential to be launched on a ballistic missile, which comes as a surprise because no one really thought they had these types of weapons yet. The warhead itself apparently does not have great accuracy, but it can be fired.

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"Quoting from the unclassified portion, which I believe has not yet been made public, they say, quote, 'DIA assesses with moderate confidence the North currently has nuclear weapons capable of delivering by ballistic missiles. However, the reliability will be low.'" Lamborn told Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, who was testifying before the committee.
This comes after North Korea "prepares" its Musudan missiles to be launched. A U.S. intelligence official said that the missile they were allegedly going to "test" was raised to an upright launching position, but then another U.S. intelligence official stated that the same missile was placed back into its launcher. I suppose that this is a scare tactic to antagonize the international community, as Kim Jon-Un knows that the world is closely watching his country's every move.

Here's the link to the CNN article: link
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  #113    
Old April 13th, 2013, 10:25 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22139959

Looks like some progress perhaps? General Martin Dempsey has already made a mark as a badass in my books when he spoke out against media attention on Israeli airstrikes on Iran last year. But now there's cooperation between US and China, towards a peaceful outcome.
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  #114    
Old April 15th, 2013, 07:20 PM
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Technically North and South Korea have been at war since the Korean War due to the fallout of a peace treaty. Same old, same old in the DMZ.
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  #115    
Old April 15th, 2013, 07:28 PM
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I do think NK doesn't have a chance against SK even if they have those nukes :3

Plus an atomic bomb or two can make them surrender anytime
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  #116    
Old April 15th, 2013, 07:50 PM
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I do think NK doesn't have a chance against SK even if they have those nukes :3

Plus an atomic bomb or two can make them surrender anytime
North Korea's military is larger and more heavily funded than South Korea's.
Also, your view of nuclear weapons is a little skewed if you think countries are willing to just throw them around. If any of the nuclear possessive states use hydrogen bombs then all of humanity and the world suffers.
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  #117    
Old April 15th, 2013, 07:56 PM
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China's come out saying it's looking for the peaceful denuclearisation of Korea, which is basically in accordance to American interests too. Even if you think it's all talk, it's only talk because the situation is rather scary and everybody's being cautious. It's in China's best interests to get rid of North Korean nukes so congrats for them declaring it even if it doesn't translate into action quickly. Note that North Korea wants negotiations but their bottom line is to maintain their nuclear capability. So these are strong words indeed.
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  #118    
Old April 15th, 2013, 08:05 PM
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I too look forward to better China-U.S. relations. It'll be nice to be rid of that former animosity between two societies with different ideologies. Not unlike North and South Korea.
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  #119    
Old April 16th, 2013, 09:52 AM
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North Korea's military is larger and more heavily funded than South Korea's.
Put a huge asterisk next to that.

North Korea
Population - 24,451,285
Military Personnel - 1,106,000
Military Reserves - 8,200,000
Military Total - 9,306,000

That's 38% of the population

South Korea
Population - 49,779,000
Military Personnel - 635,000
Military Reserves - 3,200,000
Military Total - 3,835,000

That's 8% of the population

If South Korea had 38% of its population in military service then they'd have 18,945,564 military personnel total.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/count...pare+Countries
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  #120    
Old April 16th, 2013, 10:21 AM
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North Korea's a joke. He's all bark no bite. Even if he did do something stupid like this America would extinct North Korea from the planet and he knows this. All I gotta say is, "Bring it on"!
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  #121    
Old April 16th, 2013, 11:57 AM
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North Korea's a joke.
Wow that's really rude. The guy might be a nut-job, but what he's proposing is a means to an end, the end being the improvement of his national economy. His country is dying right now. Not saying I agree with him, and hating on him is sorta ok, just not the whole god damn country. They're people too you know.
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He's all bark no bite. Even if he did do something stupid like this America would extinct North Korea from the planet and he knows this. All I gotta say is, "Bring it on"!
Yes because 'bringing it on' and killing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people would be a great way to prove our dominance over the world. Wars and massacres are always the way to go.

Seriously I thought humanity had grown past that 'conquer for glory' phase.

"To vanquish without peril is to triumph without glory" is a very old saying.
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  #122    
Old April 16th, 2013, 12:29 PM
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I'm just stating the facts. It's his choice whether he wants to sign his death certificate or not. North Korea has no allies and no other country would mind us taking care of them. 1 or 2 things will come out of this. WW3 or North Korea is erased from the face of the earth. He's playing with fire and picking his poison.
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  #123    
Old April 16th, 2013, 12:32 PM
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Wow that's really rude. The guy might be a nut-job, but what he's proposing is a means to an end, the end being the improvement of his national economy. His country is dying right now. Not saying I agree with him, and hating on him is sorta ok, just not the whole god damn country. They're people too you know.
He's not trying to improve the North Korean economy. If he wanted to do that he wouldn't be showing his "military might" (It's all outdated WW2/Cold War era weaponry). He's only further alienated his country from the rest of the world since coming to power. If not the worst, he has to be one of the worst, leaders ever.
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  #124    
Old April 16th, 2013, 12:36 PM
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I'm just stating the facts. It's his choice whether he wants to sign his death certificate or not. North Korea has no allies and no other country would mind us taking care of them. 1 or 2 things will come out of this. WW3 or North Korea is erased from the face of the earth. He's playing with fire and picking his poison.
Yes but we as human beings should care about killing tens of millions of people. Have we really evolved into completely senseless cold hearted bastards? I hope not.

The way World War II ended, in my opinion at least, was horrible. It's true that had the two nuclear bombs we dropped not been launched, the war might have gone on for God only knows how long and it's even possible that more lives would have been lost than those taken by the atomic bombs.

But as true as that may be, I as a human can't help but feel that the lives that would have been lost in any further war would not have been as senseless, nor scarring as those who were not even fighting in the war, yet were taken by one trigger as an act of retaliation and vengeance.

I would literally lose my faith in what this country stands for if we retaliated to an attack from North Korea with a god damn nuclear bomb.

An eye for an eye can only go so far.
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  #125    
Old April 16th, 2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
He's not trying to improve the North Korean economy. If he wanted to do that he wouldn't be showing his "military might" (It's all outdated WW2/Cold War era weaponry). He's only further alienated his country from the rest of the world since coming to power. If not the worst, he has to be one of the worst, leaders ever.
Exactly and his greed and decisions is gonna determine him and his peoples destiny. Leave US and its' allies alone or go through with it and get you're people killed.

@Pedro his intentions is to attack city after city and each city here has a couple million people especially cities like Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, etc. If he nukes even one city were sending ours his way and killing all his people. If he kills 3 million of our people, were killing 10 million of his people or how ever many they have. Because America will not allow him to attack more than 1 city if they send it our way, they're ****ed simple as that.

Last edited by ShinyUmbreon189; April 16th, 2013 at 12:59 PM.
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