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  #1    
Old April 16th, 2013, 07:58 AM
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Okay, the idea here is that I'll present a topic that will be open for people to debate on for approximately a week before closing it and moving onto a new topic.

The topic will most likely be related to events in modern history, the near future or current times and will probably be politically or ethically based.

I'll keep a list of finished topics and if this thread garners enough interest I'll even format this post and make it look/sound better.

Onwards to the first topic!
"Are the United States of America too involved in foreign politics?"

I'll probably post my own arguments a little bit later (if at all).
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  #2    
Old April 16th, 2013, 11:18 AM
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I think most countries are pretty fairly represented through all kinds of things. Globalization. The UN. Diplomats and embassies. etc.

The U.S., still being a super power for the time being, hopes to get the most benefit out of it all - but it doesn't always end up that way
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Old April 16th, 2013, 12:55 PM
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Well, the US is involved in a lot of stuff around the world. It is the largest economy (for now) and does represent about 1 in every 20 people in the world. But involved in other nation's politics? Not so much. Sure, we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and were part of what happened in Libya, but there are plenty of places where we could be intervening in with justifiable reasons. (I don't mean to imply that what we did in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya was necessarily justified, just that we claimed we were and lots of people believed us at the time, rightly or wrongly.) Look at Syria, where we've been pretty hands off despite the atrocities there.

I guess when you compare the U.S. to other countries we do seem like we have our fingers in everyone's pies. I don't see anything wrong in trying to promote democracy and human rights though and if that's something the U.S. is doing then that's okay by me. (War is an entirely different story though.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
Yes, it's been proven America is working with the Mexican government. For a couple years now America has been working with them so they get benefits of moving here. They get free health care, welfare, food stamps, and jobs without any question asked. It's easier for an illegal citizen from Mexico to get jobs, or any assistance from the government. It's just the liberal's mentality.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/20...llect-welfare/

http://personalinsure.about.com/od/h...immigrants.htm

This is a major issue here in America and it's causing our job market to fail. In lots of states (especially democratic) illegal immigration takes most of our jobs. American welfare is higher than ever because this is a problem. I don't know what America is trying to accomplish here.
So they're taking jobs... but they're also on welfare? I don't think it works that way.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:02 PM
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So they're taking jobs... but they're also on welfare? I don't think it works that way.
Read the article and look around you. They're working illegally.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:03 PM
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I think he meant that they're taking jobs causing born American citizens to go on welfare because they cannot get employed. Mexicans are willing to work for lower wages, too, and even though their stereotype says otherwise, imo they'll work harder for their buck. Employers would probably prefer a worker like that over one they have to pay properly, finance if they're injured on the job or who may or may not work as hard / take the job for granted.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Yusshin View Post
I think he meant that they're taking jobs causing born American citizens to go on welfare because they cannot get employed. Mexicans are willing to work for lower wages, too, and even though their stereotype says otherwise, imo they'll work harder for their buck. Employers would probably prefer a worker like that over one they have to pay properly, finance if they're injured on the job or who may or may not work as hard / take the job for granted.
Thank you that's exactly what I was getting at. Not just that they work for lower wages WHILE on welfare because we signed an agreement with Mexico stating we do that. They get everything easier than a citizen born in America. I'm not talking illegal citizens born in America because that's not "legal citizenship" that's illegal immigration still. It's just the way the liberal government here works, I don't understand they're logic. But liberals will over and over deny the fact even tho it's obvious because they have they're head stuck in the sand.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
Thank you that's exactly what I was getting at. Not just that they work for lower wages WHILE on welfare because we signed an agreement with Mexico stating we do that. They get everything easier than a citizen born in America. I'm not talking illegal citizens born in America because that's not "legal citizenship" that's illegal immigration still. It's just the way the liberal government here works, I don't understand they're logic. But liberals will over and over deny the fact even tho it's obvious because they have they're head stuck in the sand.
I don't see how that makes their life easier. I don't know why American complains that illegals are "taking their jobs". The nationalists who bash those more educated and less educated because they're willing to work harder than them. If you really wanted to work, then get down and dirty and get paid for less because there are people willing to do it. Nobody's stealing your job if they're actually doing it. I don't know what the privileged - master race, if you will - are trying to accomplish by complaining. You're not entitled to a job if you're too picky about the pay. Almost a million immigrants will come illegally to your country every year to work a job you claim to be too **** for you. If you're too good as a White American to do the same jobs illegals do then keep complaining and keep suffering, because at least somebody is putting food on the table for their family tonight.

Remember, these people are here working with little qualifications and making much less than someone more privileged does. I see this as a fault of the capitalists who employ them. Because illegals are paid less, more of them are eligible for food stamps. Everybody in the country contributes to the funding of your welfare state, but the rich "job creators" are reaping the profit. Don't blame the illegals - they've suffered much already and are willing to continue working. Instead blame those who can only gain by providing lower wages and less benefits. If you're upset about illegals and at the government, that's exactly what the privileged class would want from you so they can continue using cheap labour at your expense.

Socialist rant over, now let's get to the foreign politics. Perceptions of Mexico as a poor, backwards country can only be caused by your media. In fact, Mexico is one of the Next 11 economies having grown 3.9% in 2012 vs. the US only having grown 2.2%. While the Mexican GDP per capita is 17% of the US, that ratio will grow to be 48% in 40 years. Even though it's poor when compared to the US, the country is quite wealthy in comparison to the rest of the world and will continue to grow quickly.

As for the rest of the world, I'm not too sure because I don't even know what perspective to take. How do you define what's in the American interest? Is the US not taking a more direct action in Libya and Syria a sign of it being unable to act like it once could, or that it's smartened up and learned how to achieve its goals without intervening directly (not so much in Syria, but still). And is the US pivot to Asia going to lead to more cooperation or suspicion with China? Now I can say for sure that industrializing countries want to usher in a multipolar world where US influence will not be paramount - it'll still be powerful and have friends, but won't be calling the shots like it could post-1990, or even during the Cold War. So you could even frame the question like so: the US will be intervening too much with respect to how much regional powers want sovereignty in their spheres of influence (Europe, Russia, China, Brazil, Iran - among many others).
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Old April 16th, 2013, 06:32 PM
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Guys, the effect of immigration has little to nothing to do with the topic at hand with where you have taken it.

@BlahISuck - I'd say you are certainly correct, ever since the US decided to intervene in Vietnam (and failed, I don't care what you think but that is the truth), and the Cold War they have seemingly been getting smarter and smarter becoming less and less involved with the political struggles and choices of other nations. That being said, and sorry for how bad this will probably sound, the US is like that kid at school who was well intentioned but always getting into fights with kids with different view points. Even to this day the US government is too wary of communism (which in itself isn't actually a bad system) and involved in several military conflicts, which due to agreements such as the ANZAS treaty they manage to drag their allies into also. I'm willing to concede that the US have improved but they have a long way to go, do you honestly think that the American government wants to see the rise of other superpowers?
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Old April 16th, 2013, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Guys, the effect of immigration has little to nothing to do with the topic at hand with where you have taken it.

@BlahISuck - I'd say you are certainly correct, ever since the US decided to intervene in Vietnam (and failed, I don't care what you think but that is the truth), and the Cold War they have seemingly been getting smarter and smarter becoming less and less involved with the political struggles and choices of other nations. That being said, and sorry for how bad this will probably sound, the US is like that kid at school who was well intentioned but always getting into fights with kids with different view points. Even to this day the US government is too wary of communism (which in itself isn't actually a bad system) and involved in several military conflicts, which due to agreements such as the ANZAS treaty they manage to drag their allies into also. I'm willing to concede that the US have improved but they have a long way to go, do you honestly think that the American government wants to see the rise of other superpowers?
Which is absolutely the right thing to do. Get involved in other countries conflicts, you are left with nothing more than a failed agenda and soldiers dead for a stupid cause in another land. Take Iraq for example, you may have installed a democratic government there but it is pretty useless with daily bombings and what not.
The US doesn't have long however. This century belongs to China. spheal with it. :p
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Old April 16th, 2013, 06:51 PM
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I'm not American... I have no problems dealing with it

I'm somewhat confused though because you wrote like you were opposing what I said but were actually agreeing with it.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 07:14 PM
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Oh, no, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I had quoted you just for the first part of what I said. xD
To be clear, yes I'm opposed to the US intervening in other countries.
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  #12    
Old April 16th, 2013, 07:32 PM
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I'm not sure if the US could get its way intervening anywhere in the world anymore. If anybody notices an exception, it would be much appreciated.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
I don't see how that makes their life easier. I don't know why American complains that illegals are "taking their jobs". The nationalists who bash those more educated and less educated because they're willing to work harder than them. If you really wanted to work, then get down and dirty and get paid for less because there are people willing to do it. Nobody's stealing your job if they're actually doing it. I don't know what the privileged - master race, if you will - are trying to accomplish by complaining. You're not entitled to a job if you're too picky about the pay. Almost a million immigrants will come illegally to your country every year to work a job you claim to be too **** for you. If you're too good as a White American to do the same jobs illegals do then keep complaining and keep suffering, because at least somebody is putting food on the table for their family tonight.
That's the thing. Americans that work minimum wage can't afford to support they're family unlike the illegals. The illegals live in a big group and each bring home $5 an hour or so and that makes it at least 4x as much as a US citizen once you do the math and include American's paying taxes. Also in America it's technically illegal to have a paying job and not pay taxes if you're over 16 years old.

Also let's get realistic here. This is America and for some reason race is still a major issue. Talk about equal opportunity employment... Yeah right, explain why every worker at the Sub Ways, Dunkin Donuts, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, etc are Hispanic? If you don't see an issue in illegal immigration then you need to move you're ass to America and then you will see my position in trying to get a job (i got a job). I can't afford to even support myself on anything lower than minimum wage. A 1 bed apt is $700 bucks up here and that's in the bad neighborhoods. So don't even start with me saying they are willing to work because American's are willing to work too. We just don't live here illegally with 15 people all paying for something so it's a lot harder for us. Which is why the welfare system is so high now. American's have just given up because of the immigration, we don't even bother trying.. Get free money from the system, hell why not I wouldn't mind getting $600 a month for free with free health care and food stamps.

Quote:
Remember, these people are here working with little qualifications and making much less than someone more privileged does. I see this as a fault of the capitalists who employ them. Because illegals are paid less, more of them are eligible for food stamps. Everybody in the country contributes to the funding of your welfare state, but the rich "job creators" are reaping the profit. Don't blame the illegals - they've suffered much already and are willing to continue working. Instead blame those who can only gain by providing lower wages and less benefits. If you're upset about illegals and at the government, that's exactly what the privileged class would want from you so they can continue using cheap labour at your expense.
But it's also illegal to pay under minimum wage and if they get caught they get a huge fine but yet they still risk it.

You don't seem to know the issues that come with illegal immigration because you don't live near it. Move to Chicago buddy.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 07:53 PM
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I don't think the US takes part in foreign politics that much.

You see here at the Philippines the election is going to start at the 13th of May and I don't really see any Americans trying to represent people here. :3
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Old April 16th, 2013, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
That's the thing. Americans that work minimum wage can't afford to support they're family unlike the illegals. The illegals live in a big group and each bring home $5 an hour or so and that makes it at least 4x as much as a US citizen once you do the math and include American's paying taxes. Also in America it's technically illegal to have a paying job and not pay taxes if you're over 16 years old.

Also let's get realistic here. This is America and for some reason race is still a major issue. Talk about equal opportunity employment... Yeah right, explain why every worker at the Sub Ways, Dunkin Donuts, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, etc are Hispanic? If you don't see an issue in illegal immigration then you need to move you're ass to America and then you will see my position in trying to get a job (i got a job). I can't afford to even support myself on anything lower than minimum wage. A 1 bed apt is $700 bucks up here and that's in the bad neighborhoods. So don't even start with me saying they are willing to work because American's are willing to work too. We just don't live here illegally with 15 people all paying for something so it's a lot harder for us. Which is why the welfare system is so high now. American's have just given up because of the immigration, we don't even bother trying.. Get free money from the system, hell why not I wouldn't mind getting $600 a month for free with free health care and food stamps.

But it's also illegal to pay under minimum wage and if they get caught they get a huge fine but yet they still risk it.

You don't seem to know the issues that come with illegal immigration because you don't live near it. Move to Chicago buddy.
So why don't White Americans start living in big groups and sharing costs? NO THAT WOULD BE COMMUNISM AND AGAINST OUR FREEDOM LOVING WAYS OF LIFE! Really? That's a terrible excuse - what it tells me is that Hispanics are much more efficient when it comes to their household expenses XD. Wow, so you think the service workers at restaurants are only there because of affirmative action? Talk about jealousy! That's just excuses, man. Calling them incompetent and their jobs undeserved is just lofty thinking. I don't know why you think it's a problem that you can't support yourself lower than minimum wage, but it's also a problem that illegals can support themselves. What there are different criteria depending on how you entered the country?

And I'm not sure, but are you blaming illegals for getting paid under minimum wage illegally? Shouldn't you be directing your frustration at their employers? They're just here to work and get paid, that's happy enough.

I thought the US housing market wasn't doing so well. You can find 1 bedroom apartments for $400 or $500 in Toronto. And everything is supposed to be more expensive in Canada. Numbeo tells me that Chicago rent prices are supposed to be 3% higher than toronto, not 40%.

You live in a place where illegal immigration happens, yet your perspective is still biased and lacks focus. I'll be happy staying in Canada and maintaining a clear head, thanks.

-----------

Anyways, did you know your president is part Chinese? =D

Pay attention to those elections! I'm sure the South China Sea/Philippines Sovereignty issue will pop up several times. There might be different ways your politicians suggest will solve the problem - many that no doubt involve the United States. The South China Sea issue is the foremost issue that binds China, Philippines, the US, and the rest of SEA. The US had your country in its grips 100 years ago, and it's still there today.

Okay - so there's one scenario that the US might intervene in. Especially on the side of the smaller countries, like the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, and Indonesia. Not military intervention like we've been focusing on these past few posts, but intervention in territorial disputes, sovereignty, and economics nonetheless.

Edit: and totally unrelated to this thread, I learned that there was a Chinese Filipino cardinal called Cardinal Sin. That sounds like a rapper's name XD
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Old April 16th, 2013, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
I don't see how that makes their life easier. I don't know why American complains that illegals are "taking their jobs". The nationalists who bash those more educated and less educated because they're willing to work harder than them. If you really wanted to work, then get down and dirty and get paid for less because there are people willing to do it. Nobody's stealing your job if they're actually doing it. I don't know what the privileged - master race, if you will - are trying to accomplish by complaining. You're not entitled to a job if you're too picky about the pay. Almost a million immigrants will come illegally to your country every year to work a job you claim to be too **** for you. If you're too good as a White American to do the same jobs illegals do then keep complaining and keep suffering, because at least somebody is putting food on the table for their family tonight.

Remember, these people are here working with little qualifications and making much less than someone more privileged does. I see this as a fault of the capitalists who employ them. Because illegals are paid less, more of them are eligible for food stamps. Everybody in the country contributes to the funding of your welfare state, but the rich "job creators" are reaping the profit. Don't blame the illegals - they've suffered much already and are willing to continue working. Instead blame those who can only gain by providing lower wages and less benefits. If you're upset about illegals and at the government, that's exactly what the privileged class would want from you so they can continue using cheap labour at your expense.

Socialist rant over, now let's get to the foreign politics. Perceptions of Mexico as a poor, backwards country can only be caused by your media. In fact, Mexico is one of the Next 11 economies having grown 3.9% in 2012 vs. the US only having grown 2.2%. While the Mexican GDP per capita is 17% of the US, that ratio will grow to be 48% in 40 years. Even though it's poor when compared to the US, the country is quite wealthy in comparison to the rest of the world and will continue to grow quickly.

As for the rest of the world, I'm not too sure because I don't even know what perspective to take. How do you define what's in the American interest? Is the US not taking a more direct action in Libya and Syria a sign of it being unable to act like it once could, or that it's smartened up and learned how to achieve its goals without intervening directly (not so much in Syria, but still). And is the US pivot to Asia going to lead to more cooperation or suspicion with China? Now I can say for sure that industrializing countries want to usher in a multipolar world where US influence will not be paramount - it'll still be powerful and have friends, but won't be calling the shots like it could post-1990, or even during the Cold War. So you could even frame the question like so: the US will be intervening too much with respect to how much regional powers want sovereignty in their spheres of influence (Europe, Russia, China, Brazil, Iran - among many others).
Quoting simply because this in a nut shell. I mean you really cannot summarize it better than this. Only thing I can add as I don't really see it mentioned if it is not hinted at: They are not "stealing" our jobs. They are taking the jobs we DO NOT WANT TO WORK. They have the last job we'd ever take if our lively hoods depended on it. I saw some crack about them only working in select restaurants. As Ironic as it is the only two types of restaraunts I've seen a majority of Mexican workers in is Taco Bell and Mexican theme'd. Everywhere else in my state is either Black or Asian decent. In the five cities near me the Asian cuisine has gone up by a large margin. Many new Asian themed restaurants pop up every other month.

We do need to focus more on close to home issues rather than putting out noses into everyone else's affairs, but I wouldn't say we are too involved. A lot of the "illegals stole my/our job(s)" is grossly over exaggerated. I also have seen friends deported because their parents didn't have green cards after 5 years. The ones who parents did get green cards are paying taxes and living happily while their kids go to college to get better careers.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 09:13 PM
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Haha, I have to use the language as it came from the mouth of the speaker. It's only responsible journalism
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Old May 9th, 2013, 04:50 PM
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I think we have every right to be involved in world politics. We're the most powerful country in the world, and a lot of countries (both democratic and authoritarian) look to us for support. We need the US as a moderator for problems. Of course, that doesn't mean that we can butt into certain affairs where we're not wanted. But I think that the US is one of the countries the world really needs for a lot of things.
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Old May 9th, 2013, 08:35 PM
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I certainly believe that we are. Some would argue as a superpower its our job to protect the world, fight for those who cant defend themselves. I would have to respectfully disagree. We should refrain from interfering with other countries and international policy unless it directly affects us. Whats happening in syria that's not our concern, we should stay out. Offer no assistance and let them sort it out. Its not our job to force our will or desires on others, that's what we did in IRAQ/Afghanistan. Them people didn't ask for our assistance, they didn't ask for our freedom, they didn't want it. They lived under a dictatorship and it worked for them. Don't get me wrong a tyrant's rule is not justified, but it wasn't our right to step in. How would we feel if China decided that because we owe them tons of money they will impose communism on us? We would fight as the Iraqis did/are still doing.

I think we should not get involved in anymore of the conflicts overseas. Thats their business let them deal with it.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 01:30 AM
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While yes, it's sometimes considered good and noble to stay out of the way with regards to foreign politics, sometimes It is necessary to get involved to protect our own interests. With regards to that, I'm fairly sure the US is good at protecting these things usually.

Part of the interests of the US is in fact spreading the idea of democracy. It's been that way at least for 50 years, give or take 10 or 20, and most leaders of democratic nations usually don't take long to warm up to the US and realize we're only out to maintain peace in the world.

I don't believe we make war for light or frivolous reasons, we do so to stop tragedy and famines, we're picking up the people of the world and giving them the same choices we have.

I don't believe that any of the wars the US has been in since World War II has been any war that wasn't either instigated by someone else, or caused by a country choosing to wage war on our allies. The USA has a LOT of Allies. We look out for a large portion of the world.

The Middle Eastern countries however are a bit of a different story. Unfortunately people here seem to think they didn't want us in the fray. This is true, however it is irrelevant. The Middle East has long been a tinderbox for religious tensions and senseless wars. Wars that would, if left unchecked, erupt rather emphatically into a World War when one country finally persuades a bigger country like China or Russia to help them. China and Russia are powers in their own right, and they're pretty eager to stir trouble. So they feed the fires and watch them burn. Someone has to toss water in on it or it could cause a blaze.

If the USA had been a country with selfish intentions, North Korea would have been wiped out years ago, regardless of how China felt. China however took North Korea under it's wing and we allowed it, so long as China can keep North Korea from doing anything too dumb. Do we like it? Not really, as far as I know.

Being a Superpower means taking the lead sometimes, and it's a tough job. That doesn't always make you friends with everybody though, especially not with the ones who are intent on breaking the rules you're enforcing.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 08:08 AM
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But what gives the US the right to enforce any kind of rules? That's what we have the UN etc... for. It's not up to America to decide what is okay for the rest of the world, just because democracy is a great system of government doesn't mean you have the right to force it upon the world.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
But what gives the US the right to enforce any kind of rules? That's what we have the UN etc... for. It's not up to America to decide what is okay for the rest of the world, just because democracy is a great system of government doesn't mean you have the right to force it upon the world.
The U.N relies on member nations for troops and authority, so naturally, the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China, have more say and more power than the others do. And they can direct & control things as they see fit, usually.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 02:08 PM
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The U.N relies on member nations for troops and authority, so naturally, the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, Russia, China, have more say and more power than the others do. And they can direct & control things as they see fit, usually.
True. And the only thing that appears to be stopping the US, Britain and France going into Syria (good intentions, most definitely, but nothing good would come from it for us at least) is that Russia and China love to mug "the West" off at every occasion possible :)
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Old May 10th, 2013, 05:20 PM
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China is a huge supporter of state sovereignty though, and that's why it's dismissive of intervention into other state's domestic issues. The West focuses a bit more on human sovereignty, which arose from the mistakes of Rwanda and Bosnia and turned into R2P - the idea that states have a responsibility to protect, and intervention should occur when a state loses its ability to do that. The scope however, is only genocides, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansings. There hasn't been much international criticism on the atrocities in Syria, compared to Gaddafi, and R2P certainly doesn't mean regime change - which it undoubtedly became in Libya. It's not even that the West is united in doing something, as there are those who criticize the West in taking advantage of Russia and China's vetos. There are many in the West who see Syria as potentially damaging US interests.
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Old May 12th, 2013, 07:38 AM
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I believe so.

I believe that we should only get involved when our direct national security is threatened.
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