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  #51    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sydian View Post
That's like saying a straight couple has a kids and the mother is attracted to the son or the father is attracted to the daughter. Just because the couple is homosexual, it doesn't mean they're attracted to EVERYONE of their sex. The child being adopted doesn't make a difference either. If a gay couple cares enough to go out of their way to adopt a child, which by the way is not a short or easy process, I doubt they'd do it just for that reason alone. I have more faith in humanity and adoptive parents than that.



So? Damn, who wants to get pregnant and give birth and go through that? lol There are so many children already in the world that need to be adopted anyway. Straight couple can't do it alone. And gay couples don't add to the population. We don't need as many people in the world like we used to in the 1700's. And the child won't really know a difference if they grow up with two same sex parents. Believe me, if they're young and it's all they know, the strange ones to them will be people with parents of different sexes. I grew up in a single-parent household. It was so normal to me that I thought everyone did. I don't see this as being any different from that.



It was a comparison. My point was that I don't like sex. I can't make people not have sex though. You don't like gay marriage. You can't tell people not to have one.
again,Syd..that was my own opinion...you have your own opinion and it's nothing personal.....opinions difference doesn't make us enemies...you make me feel like i'm having a knife and running everywhere killing homosexuals...lol i won't....for example some people say Muslims are terrorists ...as long as i know i'm not i don't care what people say,in the end it's all opinions won't make differences!

i can have homosexuals as friends but i will tell them i'm against that and i'll ask them what's the point??! *shrugs*
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  #52    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Broken_Arrow View Post
well, sorry but i don't approve that too..Marriage means family..
Yes, marriage is about family. But a family does not need to consist of parents and children. It could just be two adult couples. They're a family. It could be a single parent and a child. That's a family.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Arrow View Post
how does people from the same gender make families?? and in they adopted children how will they raise em??
Just the same as straight couples raise adopted children. I am adopted, for instance, by a heterosexual couple. And whether you believe it or not, just because people who are gay are attracted to the same sex does not mean they are infertile. There are plenty of children born to gay people all the time. Males can choose surrogacy, and females can choose to get impregnated from a sperm donor.

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not to mention that i don't see how a people from the same gender feel attracted to each others tbh!
Of course not. You're not gay. I suggest you do some unbiased research on human sexuality.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Arrow View Post
1- according to my traditions and religion.. YES! you need to be married to start a family
That's your belief, and you're welcome to it. Just keep it private and away from those who want to have nothing to do with it. No one has the right or authority to dictate their beliefs on others. I understand that you think being gay is wrong (personally I'm perfectly fine with it, since I am gay, and in a long-term relationship with a really wonderful guy.), but if you for one instance work to deprive others of their rights because of your beliefs, then you cross a line that should not be crossed.
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  #53    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:09 PM
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When I mentioned menopause BA, I was referring to couples who get married after the woman has already gone through menopause. If your argument is "she chose to get married after she could have kids", then you by logic must support lesbians marrying - they are fully capable of having children, they just choose not to.

Your points, if you looked at them from a perspective that isn't "GAY IS BAD", are actually very offensive towards gay people. You really think gay people would be attracted to a child of the same sex? Do you realize how offensive that is? Also, if your argument is "fathers can rape their kids, therefore gay people shouldn't get married", I think the more logical argument is "fathers can rape their kids, therefore father shouldn't be allowed around their kids".
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  #54    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:16 PM
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@Broken_Arrow - Are you kidding me? These days most heterosexual couples

a) Don't last
b) Are Terrible parents.

These are mostly young couples who have babies and treat them as fashion accessories because they want the fun part and aren't prepared to put the work in to actually raise their child.

If a homosexual couple can raise the kid with love and care for them properly, who cares what their gender is?


As for using religion as an excuse, firstly marriage and religion are growing more and more separate each day. Organised religion isn't able to keep up with the current, free-thinking mindset which is why the two are becoming less intertwined and why organised religion still follow archaic, prejudiced and narrow-minded ethical standards.

If you want to bring the bible into things (admittedly my knowledge isn't great, I don't follow organised religion), when it says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as though he would a women (somewhere in Leviticus) it could quite easily be, and often is, interpreted to mean that a man should not treat another man as though they are of the same worth as a women, because back in the times of the bible men were considered to be worth more than women (which makes me wonder what was so bad about gay marriage also). If you want to use religion as an argument against gay-marriage you should be following it down to a "t" - so I hope you have sacrificed your quota of sheep.
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  #55    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:16 PM
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again,Syd..that was my own opinion...you have your own opinion and it's nothing personal.....opinions difference doesn't make us enemies...you make me feel like i'm having a knife and running everywhere killing homosexuals...lol i won't....for example some people say Muslims are terrorists ...as long as i know i'm not i don't care what people say,in the end it's all opinions won't make differences!
As I said before, I don't care if someone has a differing opinion, but you are expressing them so disrespectfully. I just couldn't leave it alone and not reply. You are free to have your differing opinion and that's fine, but when you put it out there the way you are right now, don't expect no one to just let it fly free. It's offending people.
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  #56    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
If you want to bring the bible into things (admittedly my knowledge isn't great, I don't follow organised religion), when it says that a man shouldn't lay with another man as though he would a women (somewhere in Leviticus) it could quite easily be, and often is, interpreted to mean that a man should not treat another man as though they are of the same worth as a women, because back in the times of the bible men were considered to be worth more than women (which makes me wonder what was so bad about gay marriage also). If you want to use religion as an argument against gay-marriage you should be following it down to a "t" - so I hope you have sacrificed your quota of sheep.
That verse has been so grossly been mistranslated, it's no wonder that people don't even know what the original text says. The verse could easily be translated to state: "It is an abomination for a man that lies with a woman if he also lies with mankind." Or: "A man that lies with a woman commits abomination if he lies with mankind, too." Or even: "If a man also lies with mankind, as he lies with a woman, they have committed an abomination." These translations clearly refers to a heterosexual who has been with a woman, but has left the woman for a man.

I would offer the following link for further reading:

http://gaychristiansurvivors.tripod.com/id7.html
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  #57    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:51 PM
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Well thank you for that, my knowledge on religious texts are fairly limited as I admitted. The majority of y argument still stands though.
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  #58    
Old April 17th, 2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
Well thank you for that, my knowledge on religious texts are fairly limited as I admitted. The majority of y argument still stands though.
As a gay man continuously having these "clobber passages" thrown at me time and time again, I've found it advantageous to explore them and their meaning further than most people probably would. Your interpretation of the verse is a pretty sound one, although lexicologists may take issue with all our interpretations.

(Link: Lexicology)
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  #59    
Old April 17th, 2013, 08:06 PM
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I thought that verse was pretty clear in its meaning: that homosexuality is wrong; that a man and a woman may lie together, but not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

But I guess it could be read other ways.

Anyway.

Yay New Zealand!
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  #60    
Old April 17th, 2013, 08:10 PM
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This is bloody wicked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=pCDEiaoEP2U#!
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  #61    
Old April 17th, 2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Yusshin View Post
I thought that verse was pretty clear in its meaning: that homosexuality is wrong; that a man and a woman may lie together, but not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

But I guess it could be read other ways.

Anyway.

Yay New Zealand!
Only if the text was translated correctly, which it wasn't. And who do you think authorized, and supervised, the translations? The Church.
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  #62    
Old April 17th, 2013, 08:11 PM
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The problem with taking verses today in English as subtle and nuanced is that it's been through hundreds of translations of varying skill throughout the thousands of years since it was written. Part of a class I'm in is to study psalms just before and just after the reformation and compare different translations, and some psalms are completely different in some lines based on whether I was reading post-Reformation Catholic, post-reformation Protestant, or pre-Reformation Catholic.

Then there were the words that mean something different now than they did back then, outside of the bias of any one of the translators of old. And the verses that were written to rely on their popular culture.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 08:14 PM
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Only if the text was translated correctly, which it wasn't. And who do you think authorized, and supervised, the translations? The Church.
But of course. That's what the Protestant revolution was all about: the ability to interpret the texts as one sees them, rather than relying on the Church for its narrow-minded interpretations.

I wanted to find a demotivational poster of the pope declaring that homosexual marriage is wrong, then fine-printed "Has sex with alter boys" but I couldn't find one in a quick Google search... Too lazy to make one for this post lol

But kinda off-topic now. Someone get this back on-topic :(
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  #64    
Old April 17th, 2013, 08:42 PM
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So proud of New Zealand! Great Job!
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  #65    
Old April 17th, 2013, 09:32 PM
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I would have thought that people would have kept their venomous opinions to themselves for just one thread in D&D, but it appears that I am wrong.

Nevertheless, yay for my country, yay for the gay rights movement and most importantly, yay for me.
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Old April 17th, 2013, 10:42 PM
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What is the meaning of marriage? To me is the covenant that a man and a woman make to become one. Emphasis on "man" and "woman". I don't say that I restrict that kind of practice(or we). Is just that it's disgusting to know that morality and virtue is practically corrupted if that continues. We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom. What I'm pointing out is what I know and believe is to be right. I'm sorry if I'm religious or whatnot guys but that just it. I don't care about your definition of marriage because we have different opinions. I'm not here to destroy your views. I'm here to give my opinion.
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  #67    
Old April 18th, 2013, 12:34 AM
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Maybe when Julia Gillard sees how happy people are that New Zealand legalised gay marriage, she might actually realise in the end that legalising gay marriage is the right thing to do. Rather than having people move to New Zealand so they can marry the person they love.
Good luck with that - I don't see Gillard changing her stance of just letting a 'conscience vote' happen with her party, nor Abbott allowing that to occur anytime soon. I think it'll be some time yet before it happens here.

That in itself is good news for New Zealand tourism from Australia. =p

It is kinda amazing they broke into song after it was passed as well there. Neat video @ Toujours.
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  #68    
Old April 18th, 2013, 12:44 AM
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I've been searching for this for a while now, a secular definition of marriage by John Locke:

"Conjugal society is made of a voluntary compact between man and woman; and tho' it consist chiefly in such a communion and right in one another's bodies as is necessary to its chief end, procreation; yet it draws with it mutual support and assistance, and a communion of interests too, as necessary not only to unite their care and affection, but also necessary to their common off-spring, who have a right to be nourished, and maintained by them, till they are able to provide for themselves."
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  #69    
Old April 18th, 2013, 01:13 AM
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Antescript - It's 4:30 in the morning so I apologize beforehand for any mistakes I make, as I woke up, checked my phone, and felt the urge to defend my homosexual brothers and sisters, along with what I take pride in being. I want to just clear up a few errors in judgement, and I'm not going to quote anyone. I'm just going to respond in general to those who aren't necessarily living in 2013.

First of all, some of you treat homosexuality like a disease. I can attest for all homosexuals that we did not just wake up one day and decide to start liking the same sex. Why would we even get the slightest inclination to do that? To be so generalized and disliked is not fun, but the haters make us stronger because we're all united for a common cause.

Also, some of you believe that not having access to marriage is going to stop us from enjoying the true aspects of love. Marriage means nothing. It's just a piece of paper. We've become so accustomed to not having marriage rights that believe me, we can live without it. In my honest opinion, gay relationships are much stronger than heterosexual relationships because we struggle through so much more to find and keep love, whereas heterosexual couples are getting divorced left and right. Oh wait, isn't divorce a sin in your lovely Bibles? Or is that conveniently overlooked when it suits you?

How absurd to think that homosexuals are all pedophiles, child molesters, and just subhumans who have no idea how to be parents. How crazy the idea that studies have proven that most homosexual couples raise children who end up heterosexuals. How sad to think that children raised by homosexuals will most likely end up becoming a lot more approving of those people who don't fit the outrageous norms set by society. Yup, we're doing it all wrong. We're defying all the laws of nature! I suggest preparing the jail cells, electric chairs, and lethal injections.

Wake up, people. Gay rights is on the political agenda for many countries across the world. Homosexuals are not subhumans. Sexuality should not and does not define a person, but rather just who they love. I respect your religious beliefs, but it's not healthy for those beliefs to cloud your common sense and moral judgment. I pity you, because we are living in a world where gay marriage will eventually become the norm, where basic human rights will finally be granted to everyone, and how lamentable it is to think that you will not take part in the celebrations because of some ridiculous principles.

I addressed this post to only a select few who have posted on this thread. To all of you who are vocal advocates, you don't understand how great it is to see all the support pouring out from every single one of you, because it really shows that there is still faith in humanity. You are all the reason why we end up becoming accepting of who we are, why we continue fighting a battle we never agreed on entering. It's unfortunate that a thread created to celebrate something like this has turned into a debate, but it's refreshing to see people willing to defend the LGBT community to the utmost. If only you guys could be running our governments. I thank you. <3
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Old April 18th, 2013, 05:40 AM
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What is the meaning of marriage? To me is the covenant that a man and a woman make to become one. Emphasis on "man" and "woman". I don't say that I restrict that kind of practice(or we). Is just that it's disgusting to know that morality and virtue is practically corrupted if that continues. We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom. What I'm pointing out is what I know and believe is to be right. I'm sorry if I'm religious or whatnot guys but that just it. I don't care about your definition of marriage because we have different opinions. I'm not here to destroy your views. I'm here to give my opinion.
When you talk about the legalization of gay marriage being "disgusting", your opinion is not just an opinion. It's an offensive attack. If you believe in freedom, shouldn't you feel the same way Yusshin does? If not, you don't believe in freedom - you believe that you should be free to act on your morals but the rest of the world should be restricted to your own moral code.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ♣Gawain♣ View Post
We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom.
You're not helping your case.

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I don't care about your definition of marriage because we have different opinions.
And why should we care about yours, then? Again, not helping your point.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 06:29 AM
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We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom.
Do I have to remind you that your government right now is attempting to enact a country-wide law prohibiting the rights of gays and lesbians to assemble, prohibiting them from demonstrating, prohibiting them from doing anything that would be construed as "promoting" homosexuality? Some places in Russia where this law has already been enacted, it could even be used to even prohibit a gay couple from holding hands for crying out loud. Tell me, how does this support your assertion that Russians respect freedom? The majority of the people polled in your country want gay people "cured" and almost a quarter want them destroyed. Your country is as anti-gay as they come. I don't expect it'll be long before homosexuality is once again illegal in your country. Freedom my butt.
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  #73    
Old April 18th, 2013, 07:08 AM
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Only if the text was translated correctly, which it wasn't. And who do you think authorized, and supervised, the translations? The Church.
Right, its always the Church. Even though published English translations of the Tanakh also come out the same way. Or that for Christians, the New Covenant supersedes the Mosaic Covenant (save for the Ten Commandments). If they carry that passage on a sign, I don't think they actually understand their faith that much.

However, I think there's some truth in what that link you posted said. In terms of interpretation. Although not yet officially recognized by the Church, there is a new (2009) Catholic translation out called the Catholic Public Domain Version. Its fairly literal and while I tend to think the Bible should be taken figuratively and not literally, it is beneficial here.

It translates it as "You shall not commit sexual acts with a male, in place of sexual intercourse with a female."

Not, "as with" as commonly seen. But, it is "in place of". Which supports what that link you provided was saying. Only a heterosexual man would be at risk of having intercourse with a man in place of a woman. Conversely, a homosexual man would be at risk of having intercourse with a woman in place of a man. Don't know why it doesn't have text representing that as well, but at the same time it also doesn't have a female-centric version. Also, wouldn't address bisexuality, but I'd think it all comes down to authorship essentially.

Anyway, that aside. Good on New Zealand XD Welcome to the club.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 08:18 AM
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Congrats New Zealand, I'm jealous.
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Old April 18th, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Right, its always the Church. Even though published English translations of the Tanakh also come out the same way. Or that for Christians, the New Covenant supersedes the Mosaic Covenant (save for the Ten Commandments). If they carry that passage on a sign, I don't think they actually understand their faith that much.
I could not believe that when I first heard about it, it's such a cop out! Considering the amount of translations, all of which are valid, the utility of the Bible as a religious authority is essentially nil.

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Originally Posted by Gyardosamped
Also, some of you believe that not having access to marriage is going to stop us from enjoying the true aspects of love. Marriage means nothing. It's just a piece of paper. We've become so accustomed to not having marriage rights that believe me, we can live without it. In my honest opinion, gay relationships are much stronger than heterosexual relationships because we struggle through so much more to find and keep love, whereas heterosexual couples are getting divorced left and right.
I think same-sex marriage means a lot to a lot of people, or else there wouldn't be all this activity about it. And that's a really generalized statement about heterosexual marriage - it's stuff like this that gets people thinking there's a "gay agenda", because face it, it is chauvinist and you're painting in huge strokes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyardosamped
I respect your religious beliefs, but it's not healthy for those beliefs to cloud your common sense and moral judgment. I pity you, because we are living in a world where gay marriage will eventually become the norm, where basic human rights will finally be granted to everyone, and how lamentable it is to think that you will not take part in the celebrations because of some ridiculous principles.
This is the same kind of patronizing we hear from religious bigots, so I thought talk like this was despised. I think his health is doing just fine, and he doesn't need your pity either. It's kind of like "God doesn't approve of what you're doing, but he loves you anyways". Substitute Jesus for God for greater effect. Just because you have the moral upper ground doesn't mean you should start gloating about it. Or else everything will just have turned full circle.
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