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  #126    
Old April 14th, 2013 (08:48 AM).
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I forgive you, Chris Bosh.
 
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"There are lots of people on the server that aren't huge battlers, and yet they hang out there."
"Yes, it can very well be general disinterest, or maybe laziness for the most part"
"You have to take into account a large percentage and a portion of the server who may be alienated by the competitive talk"

Yeah, I asking why those people are here. It's a competitive battling forum. It just blows my mind. You talk as if being disinterested in battling is normal on a battling server. Implicit in your post is that it's okay for Strategies and Movesets to turn into glorified social hour. I cannot bring myself to support that.

"I'm also interpreting from your posts that competitive battling should be a more frequent atmosphere here"
the competitive aspect of this forum is indeed important to you"

Because that's literally what the forum was made for.. It's kind of like if I were in a book club and someone said "it seems like the reading books aspect of this club is important to you" as if that should even be a question. I wouldn't go to the TCG forum and then not play the trading card game. That is where I'm really struggling.

And since you mentioned the personal note I'll just go for it. It's especially tough for me personally because I tried for years to get the forum more active but you know what? It was fun through all of those struggles (I'll exclude that D_A ban). I am frankly a little bit appalled that the foundation of this forum for a decade is being so flippantly tossed aside.

Quote originally posted by Nica:
I'm one of the few that actually do actively play competitively, and I'm deterred from making threads here, or discussing stuff here purely because people here barely care
It blows my mind that anyone would be okay with this being the reality of PC's competitive battling community.
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  #127    
Old April 14th, 2013 (10:01 AM).
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Just to add on, the battle server isn't really connected with BC anymore. Yes, it's a battle server, but it has always been a chatroom first and foremost. Off-topic discussions take place there, so I don't really see why it's a crime for non-battlers to be there. Now, I would understand your point in regards to the forum, because BC exclusively hosts only discussion related to battling. However, I doubt that people disinterested in battling have been posting here. The battle server does represent some of PC's battle community, but obviously not all.

Anyway, I agree with you on everything else. I'm fine with trying to spark some interest in competitive battling again. And I'll likely get back into competitive battling myself; I've always wanted to try out BW UU but never really got around to it. Though, I will do a few things that "casual" battlers are interested in, since I don't see the harm in it.
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  #128    
Old April 14th, 2013 (10:29 AM).
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DIE WOLFLARE!

I think my issue with competitive now adays is that people just play NU, and that's it. If you want to play anything else, you pretty much HAVE to go to the main server. Maybe we could downplay the emphasis we've been building on NU (not to say we shouldn't still play it!) and actual promote some of the other metagames?
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  #129    
Old April 14th, 2013 (11:25 AM).
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I forgive you, Chris Bosh.
 
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Quote originally posted by Wolflare:
Just to add on, the battle server isn't really connected with BC anymore. Yes, it's a battle server, but it has always been a chatroom first and foremost. Off-topic discussions take place there, so I don't really see why it's a crime for non-battlers to be there. Now, I would understand your point in regards to the forum, because BC exclusively hosts only discussion related to battling. However, I doubt that people disinterested in battling have been posting here. The battle server does represent some of PC's battle community, but obviously not all.

Anyway, I agree with you on everything else. I'm fine with trying to spark some interest in competitive battling again. And I'll likely get back into competitive battling myself; I've always wanted to try out BW UU but never really got around to it. Though, I will do a few things that "casual" battlers are interested in, since I don't see the harm in it.
It's not a crime or anything, it's just really awkward when you're on and you actually feel like you'd be being disruptive to talk about the subject matter of the forum. In other words, I'm okay with a battle server with a few non-battlers, but not a chatroom with a few battlers.

I think casual metas are fine as long are they aren't primary.

As the urge to play competitively has returned to me after years of absence, I would be happy to assist. I also need to regain whatever skills I had...

Quote originally posted by Jake♫:
DIE WOLFLARE!

I think my issue with competitive now adays is that people just play NU, and that's it. If you want to play anything else, you pretty much HAVE to go to the main server. Maybe we could downplay the emphasis we've been building on NU (not to say we shouldn't still play it!) and actual promote some of the other metagames?
Except for Wolf's demise, I definitely agree with this. I think BW UU and DP OU are the obvious targets. Given the impending release of X & Y, I don't see the harm in playing a dead meta since that's what BW is about to become anyway. And then people can (WITH AN OPEN MIND) play X & Y.
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  #130    
Old April 14th, 2013 (11:19 PM).
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I think BW UU is the better option, people still want to play a current 'meta' and Gen IV is quite different from Gen V. That being said BW UU is actually quite akin to DP OU in some ways, there isn't weather wars for one and most teams are viable. Hazards are still quite prominent like they are in DP OU so it really is a fairly balanced metagame which allows for a fair amount of strategy and there seems to be interest here as well.

As the server situation, that's why I believe a DCC can work. We can keep parts of the competitive talk on the forum so it doesn't always isolate people who don't battle on the server. I mean in all honesty, what do you have to lose? The worst that could happen is a little spam in the DCC which can be reported and locked promptly.
  #131    
Old April 16th, 2013 (05:52 PM).
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We've had a DCC here before back when it was S&M, and it just turned into a spam pit rather quickly. It isn't really worth having, and it just causes more trouble than it's really worth.
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  #132    
Old April 17th, 2013 (04:03 AM).
Stormborn
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Well the main forum seems to gotten a little life but I still think DCC is a valid option. I think the forum is mature enough (as we see here) not to spam it with garbage posts. If we stick to a topic it could be a good way to have a discussion without leaving non-battlers out. Even if it gets a little spammy I still think a little spam with some discussion is better then no activity. Of course Wolflare can always delete spam posts and warn users if they get out of hand which I actually doubt.

It's just a good way to alleviate the issue of the server not being comprised of competitive battlers. By relegating some of the discussion here I feel you can have your casual server while maintaining Battle Centre as a competitive environment.
  #133    
Old April 17th, 2013 (01:02 PM).
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Just gonna chime in here.

BW is a mess competitively. Thats the main reason i left and why i dont play much at all these days and i think everyone else feels the same, well vet wise anyway.

I know a few of our vets have been wanting to play gen 4 myself included. I think the best thing to do is decide on a mutual metagame that everyone wants to play as a community (not randbats...lol). We tried to do this with our own metagame and maybe now those deterrent to this idea arent around to troll/be stupid and bad/as useful as a chocolate fire guard etc maybe we can try something like that again ? Basically agreeing with Jake.

Now imma hibernate again.
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  #134    
Old April 17th, 2013 (01:46 PM).
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I think we need more popular support to run our own metagame. I also question how desirable that is since I don't know if anyone even cares that BW is even fixable...and it's about to become a dead metagame. I'd much prefer to wait until X&Y. Then I think it may be a better idea.

In the meantime I definitely support another metagame. I'm very only on PO's DPP OU ladder right now. I'd be open to any other (good) metagames.

I think the idea of a DCC is incompatible with a forum that already has a server. Since the server features no competitive talk and that's apparently perfectly acceptable, why not just make it "battling chat" or something generic that at least doesn't invite irrelevant nonsense. I realize I'm basically advocating for a DCC with a different name, but I think an Other Chat-like DCC is a terrible idea. A competitive focus? I may buy into that.

But there has to be a zero tolerance policy on dumb posts (I know it's subjective and difficult to enforce) so that it can function. I'm not sure if maintaining the thread would be worth its upside. I think that's for Wolf to decide.
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  #135    
Old April 17th, 2013 (02:27 PM).
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Past generations won't receive much popularity, I'll tell you that now. We tried "focusing" on an old metagame before, but no one is really interested in old generations. I see nothing wrong with sparking some interest in it and getting a few people to play it, but don't expect much else. However, what would work is BW UU, NU, RU, or OU. Primarily UU since it's been getting a bit popular on the server.

Quote originally posted by Anti:
I think the idea of a DCC is incompatible with a forum that already has a server. Since the server features no competitive talk and that's apparently perfectly acceptable, why not just make it "battling chat" or something generic that at least doesn't invite irrelevant nonsense. I realize I'm basically advocating for a DCC with a different name, but I think an Other Chat-like DCC is a terrible idea. A competitive focus? I may buy into that.
DCC isn't really supposed to be a spam pit, and it isn't for other forums (OC/CC&P's is a little bit like one because it's a casual off-topic chat). Sure, it was like that in S&M, but the one we had during CBC/BC's life wasn't bad by any means. It was just usually irrelevant or unused, just like other "all-in-one" threads like the NU Discussion (and all the other failed metagame discussions). But why not, I'll consider making another just for the heck of it.
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  #136    
Old April 17th, 2013 (09:35 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Anti:
"There are lots of people on the server that aren't huge battlers, and yet they hang out there."
"Yes, it can very well be general disinterest, or maybe laziness for the most part"
"You have to take into account a large percentage and a portion of the server who may be alienated by the competitive talk"

Yeah, I asking why those people are here. It's a competitive battling forum. It just blows my mind. You talk as if being disinterested in battling is normal on a battling server. Implicit in your post is that it's okay for Strategies and Movesets to turn into glorified social hour. I cannot bring myself to support that.

"I'm also interpreting from your posts that competitive battling should be a more frequent atmosphere here"
the competitive aspect of this forum is indeed important to you"

Because that's literally what the forum was made for.. It's kind of like if I were in a book club and someone said "it seems like the reading books aspect of this club is important to you" as if that should even be a question. I wouldn't go to the TCG forum and then not play the trading card game. That is where I'm really struggling.

And since you mentioned the personal note I'll just go for it. It's especially tough for me personally because I tried for years to get the forum more active but you know what? It was fun through all of those struggles (I'll exclude that D_A ban). I am frankly a little bit appalled that the foundation of this forum for a decade is being so flippantly tossed aside.



It blows my mind that anyone would be okay with this being the reality of PC's competitive battling community.
i got linked this and felt compelled to post lol

yea I addressed this problem a long time ago, I think the fact that everyone plays NU is kind of another indicator of this as everyones too scared to play OU because they'll be bad at it. As the great lizardman said hes good bc he "Throws himself to the lions". When I got here first everyone was laddering and trying to get better on the OU ladder [im still like that and im still not where id like to be], 1300 was an accomplishment but not the ending point. Sure people like Aero, myself have gotten down because we werent great at the game but thats no reason to not play or lose interest. Sure the server is revived activity wise but its just a bunch of kids battling casually.


also to address this 'mutual metagame stuff', the mutual metagame is OU and always has been, since its the standard, not on any forum does the community as a whole prefer to play something other than OU, sure you can branch into other tiers after a while but i mean people disregard it here like its some kind of stale unfun metagame which is a blatantly wrong stereotype, look at smogons rmt archive, youll find teams with azumarill, specially defensive dragonite, etc, you can use more mons than any other tier. i personally dont find bw2 to be as enjoyable as bw1 or some other tiers but it's still fine to play, im not getting attacked by volt turn and the same 6 mons every time i click find battle lol
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  #137    
Old April 17th, 2013 (09:45 PM).
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People aren't playing NU because they're scared of OU at all :/ When they joined, I was getting everyone into NU because it was fun to start out with and people like what they enjoy. I enjoy playing NU so I don't necessarily wanna try other stuff as it'd take away from the playing of NU. Plus NU has good players - and NU is actually a good tier. Argue that all you want but it's true. NU isn't a bad tier, and the fact that they play NU isn't bad either. It's also partially my fault because I didn't take them much further from the basics. Also NU can be a diverse metagame too, and you can ask any NU player on Smogon and they'd say the same, so... OU isn't like the "should be main tier to concentrate on" in competitive.
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  #138    
Old April 17th, 2013 (09:48 PM).
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i didnt say nu was a bad tier at all lol, read the post again ?_?

im just saying ou should naturally be the focus and its a weird notion for the community to shift off the standard
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  #139    
Old April 17th, 2013 (09:52 PM).
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No... OU shouldn't naturally be the focus. For example, Smogon's NU forum has had more threads made on the first page than OU's forum, which goes to show that it does have a big enough following to be a centerpiece. Uhh that probably makes no sense, but still, OU doesn't have to be the focus. We're not Smogon, we're PC. OU is the focus of Smogon, but the fact that NU is that interesting to get that appeal THERE suggests that NU is actually worth investing time in if it can get so much interest where OU is the big league etc. We don't necessarily have to play OU as our main tier just because we're a competitive community. It's up to what the users prefer, anyway. :/
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  #140    
Old April 17th, 2013 (10:23 PM).
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id argue OU isnt smogons main focus, given that there are sub communities for each tier and tournaments like the grand slam and spl, it is however, the standard metagame that most players play and it's definitely the focus of other smaller general pokemon sites with competitive communities like serebii and marriland
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  #141    
Old April 17th, 2013 (10:34 PM).
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Honestly, OU is the general focus for the majority of forums everywhere. It IS the standard metagame. Honestly I think the reason NU is so big here is because that was the tier that you were into, and since you were the person that actually brought a large portion of the activity here, people seemed to congregate over that way. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but when the only tier people really play is NU, and random people come onto the server asking for battles in OU/UU/<insert other tiers here>, no one really can do them because no one has ever ventured into the other metagames.

This pretty much goes back to my previous point in made in my last post, is that we need to shift some of the attention off of NU and into the other tiers. We shouldn't do it just so the random people that come onto to battle can be pleased, but it'd be nice to actually have a diversified set of people that can battle in more than one tier. I'm not saying we have to shift to OU (even if it is the norm for pretty much everywhere, not just Smogon), but it wouldn't hurt for people to actually learn it. Hell, if people are more interested in UU/RU/Ubers then fine, maybe we shift focus there. Then again, it's not impossible to have focus in more than one place at once, so maybe pushing the other tiers forward and putting NU on the back burner for a little while couldn't hurt.

Maybe having the competitive DCC isn't such a bad idea either. It's true, most people just hang out on the server and don't battle frequently/just do randbats/chat (I myself am guilty of this), so having a place dedicated to actually having competitive discussions wouldn't hurt. I mean, let's be honest, we aren't going to change the culture of the server. If it's forced to start talking about competitive play for x amount of time it isn't going to happen. I'd be happy to actually start talking competitively again, as I've been getting back into the swing of things and laddering a little here and there.
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  #142    
Old April 17th, 2013 (11:12 PM). Edited April 18th, 2013 by Stormborn.
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Making OU the focus here is like making Ping Pong the main sport in the Olympics. Encouraging people to play quite possibly the worst thing that's come out of Nintendo is a bad idea when you want activity.

And yes if not a DCC, make it a Battle Chat. It can be just discussions on competitive stuff/laddering experience/questions/whatnot. It will bring more activity I feel. As for your fear of it will take activity away from other threads, it's understandable but I feel if you make it clear most people will stick to the rules.
  #143    
Old April 18th, 2013 (06:13 AM).
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Going back to out own metagame, just curious but how would people feel in trying our own version of OU again ? (Im not ignoring anti's post or anything im just curious how people feel)

Not like before but current OU with all the stuff us as a community feel is broken removed. For example, i notice Fire Fly in the other thread (Power creep one) said something along the lines of "Oh Keldeo, Landorus and CTar make stall unviable". I also know other people hate rain and sun. And even this

Quote:
Making OU the focus here is like making Ping Pong the main sport in the Olympics. Encouraging people to play quite possibly the worst thing that's come out of Nintendo is a bad idea when you want activity.
So why not do our own suspect test and lets "fix" it ? It will get the community involved and aswell as the ladder and even newer players involved so you kill a few birds with one stone by doing this. Remember post Latias Mence Dppt ? That was arguably THE most balanced OU has been.

Im thinking if we could have some short arbitrary test period. People discuss what they feel is broken in a thread (battle chat thread maybe?) and then at the end of a period people PM to wolf what they want banned to avoid band wagoning etc.

Just throwing ideas around here but yeah lol.
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  #144    
Old April 18th, 2013 (06:25 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Dark Azelf:
Going back to out own metagame, just curious but how would people feel in trying our own version of OU again ? (Im not ignoring anti's post or anything im just curious how people feel)

Not like before but current OU with all the stuff us as a community feel is broken removed. For example, i notice Fire Fly in the other thread (Power creep one) said something along the lines of "Oh Keldeo, Landorus and CTar make stall unviable". I also know other people hate rain and sun. And even this



So why not do our own suspect test and lets "fix" it ? It will get the community involved and aswell as the ladder and even newer players involved so you kill a few birds with one stone by doing this. Remember post Latias Mence Dppt ? That was arguably THE most balanced OU has been.

Im thinking if we could have some short arbitrary test period. People discuss what they feel is broken in a thread (battle chat thread maybe?) and then at the end of a period people PM to wolf what they want banned to avoid band wagoning etc.

Just throwing ideas around here but yeah lol.
I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
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  #145    
Old April 18th, 2013 (06:55 AM).
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This is a discussion that was had on the server in regards to a possible tiering system independent of Smogon's: http://pastebin.com/6jSznSHH

If the kinks mentioned in it are ironed out (namely that suspect threads [if suspecting is even implemented in this hypothetical tiering system] usually end up devolving into mindless flame wars between distinguished "good" players) I feel Dark Azelf's system could attain a high level of viability.
  #146    
Old April 18th, 2013 (08:51 AM).
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Last time we tried, everyone was all for it. When it came to doing stuff for it... only three people got involved. :/ If it's happening again, everyone who wants it has to be on board.

I personally won't be playing it because I dislike a lot about OU, which is more than suspect testing and so on can change, and I much prefer what NU and UU has to offer. But yeah, before anything happens, everyone has to give their promise TO stay involved and play it. Otherwise again, it won't work it and it'll end up in drama again with DA getting pissed at people for not playing it.
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  #147    
Old April 18th, 2013 (09:04 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Nica:
Last time we tried, everyone was all for it. When it came to doing stuff for it... only three people got involved. :/ If it's happening again, everyone who wants it has to be on board.

I personally won't be playing it because I dislike a lot about OU, which is more than suspect testing and so on can change, and I much prefer what NU and UU has to offer. But yeah, before anything happens, everyone has to give their promise TO stay involved and play it. Otherwise again, it won't work it and it'll end up in drama again with DA getting pissed at people for not playing it.
Agreeing on both fronts, I think the question isn't "how would people feel about..." but rather "will you absolutely commit to..." because the former doesn't make people take any responsibility.

Anyway, I wouldn't play it either for the reasons I outlined in my other post and what Nica said. Too little, too late. The almighty sixth generation might be a better candidate--if it's good, oh wonderful, and if not, I would be interested in trying.

Just a note on the OU thing, I think both "sides" are right. It sucks AND is the standard metagame. It is difficult to depart from it since that's what most new players will naturally play. With no one playing anyway though, a lower tier or older gen makes sense to me. I think D_A's plan makes a lot more sense in sixth months though.

Quote originally posted by Pachy:
I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
NU is naturally large since there are way more bad Pokemon than good. As for Uber, anything that is broken should be banned--maybe Uber isn't big *enough*...just food for thought.
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  #148    
Old April 18th, 2013 (09:22 AM).
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Quote:
NU is naturally large since there are way more bad Pokemon than good. As for Uber, anything that is broken should be banned--maybe Uber isn't big *enough*...just food for thought.
Dat be deep.

In all seriousness, I kind of have to agree with Anti: It's almost too little too late. By the time we actually have anything organized, plus then actually test things, start banning, X/Y is already going to be upon us. If everyone is this opposed to standard OU, then maybe we can just focus on something like UU where it is actually pretty similar to DPP OU in terms of power balance. Plus, we're notorious for saying what we all want to do and then no one follows through on anything (Just look at the NU tour we had >.>). It's probably not worth the effort.
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  #149    
Old April 18th, 2013 (09:29 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Anti:
Agreeing on both fronts, I think the question isn't "how would people feel about..." but rather "will you absolutely commit to..." because the former doesn't make people take any responsibility.

Anyway, I wouldn't play it either for the reasons I outlined in my other post and what Nica said. Too little, too late. The almighty sixth generation might be a better candidate--if it's good, oh wonderful, and if not, I would be interested in trying.

Just a note on the OU thing, I think both "sides" are right. It sucks AND is the standard metagame. It is difficult to depart from it since that's what most new players will naturally play. With no one playing anyway though, a lower tier or older gen makes sense to me. I think D_A's plan makes a lot more sense in sixth months though.



NU is naturally large since there are way more bad Pokemon than good. As for Uber, anything that is broken should be banned--maybe Uber isn't big *enough*...just food for thought.
No. Just no. The problem is that Uber often bans SUPER EFFECTIVE as if it's BROKEN. Sorry, but I think nothing should be banned unless it absolutely has to be; I want to respect the intent of Game Freak too, because long drawn out battles really suck as much as short ones where you get slaughtered, or do the slaughtering.
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  #150    
Old April 18th, 2013 (09:31 AM).
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wolf
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
I'd love to make another PC OU. I was a big supporter of it, and I still am. Anti says it's too late, but we still have a half a year until XY is out. This would be a good time to test out our tiering system and iron out the kinks before XY is here. I think it would be a cool project, but I don't think we should focus entirely on it and not bother with expanding the amount of metagames we're comfortable with. I do suggest making a council of 3 or 5 members for our tiering system. They would make all of the decisions, but the community is free to sway their opinion.

Quote originally posted by Pachy:
I'm so for this. Anything to undermine Smogon's tiers is OK in my book. I feel like we deprive ourselves of what GF intended by overbanning things, and that smogon's tier system is WAY TOO HEAVY on the top and bottom. Seriously, look at Ubers and NU, they're the largest tiers.
We would probably be banning MORE than Smogon, that's the point. Knowing you, I doubt you would like that.
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