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  #1    
Old April 20th, 2013 (10:35 AM).
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Since the old thread about guns degenerated into a complete mess and was subsequently closed down, I thought I'd begin this thread and approach the subject of guns from a different angle.

I'd like to discuss ideas for lessening, or even eliminating, gun violence in society.

This is not to be a thread to debate second amendment rights (since not everyone here lives in the U.S.), and most definitely it's not a thread to advocate extremist views or propaganda. It's an attempt to see if we, as a community, can come up with real and workable ways to deal with gun violence in our respective societies.

Also, while I'm sure there are some very strong opinions on this subject, I think it important that anyone who posts an assertion should also post material to support their position. It's not enough to say: arming security officers in school would increase student safety. It would be helpful for everyone to see any evidence or supporting documentation to validate that assertion.

So, with that being said: how would you go about tackling gun violence?
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  #2    
Old April 20th, 2013 (04:15 PM).
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Are we talking the US or Canada? Because the US is worth debating - Canada is pretty much case closed.

The first thing you have to do is confiscate arms. And that means law enforcement has to take the initiative to go out and find them. But then you might want to restrict access in the first place, because the guns you remove from the market can just be replaced by ones you buy.
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Old April 20th, 2013 (04:55 PM).
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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
Are we talking the US or Canada? Because the US is worth debating - Canada is pretty much case closed.
Is it? Although Canada has no where near the problems with gun violence that the U.S. has, that does not mean there isn't room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
The first thing you have to do is confiscate arms. And that means law enforcement has to take the initiative to go out and find them. But then you might want to restrict access in the first place, because the guns you remove from the market can just be replaced by ones you buy.
I think enforcement is definitely the key. It's not enough to institute new laws, there has to be sustained enforcement of those laws. So in a sense, I do feel that that is a general concern. Are the laws instituted being enforced?
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Old April 20th, 2013 (05:15 PM).
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I don't know if the question is as fundamental as it is here. I would say it's more like doing what we're doing better versus having to change direction. I think the enforcement of laws have to do with the entire stance of a state's law as a whole, because a police department's experience with crime might lead them to tackling crime in different ways. So culture is a big issue too, you have to make gun control acceptable to most people.
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Old April 20th, 2013 (07:32 PM).
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I think the solution is to do what's been done in Japan, which is to make handgun ownership completely unthinkable either socially or legally, whichever works best. They also can't have any of the bigger, faster shooting kinds of guns. If you do find someone there who owns a gun it's probably a shotgun and they probably live in a more rural area. But even then you have to buy it from a licensed seller, and they have all the kinds of regulating laws meant to track when ownership changes hands, who buys ammunition, and so on. It's basically really restrictive there, but people also don't feel a need to have guns, on the whole. People feel pretty safe there (I know I did when I was there - can't say I feel the same way even in my own town sometimes) and there are some social safety nets to help people who fall on hard times. About the only thing I can think of that they might need more help with is mental health since there's a stigma around that. But even then, if you're keeping people healthy, safe, and keeping a watchful eye on what guns there are then you've fixed 90% or more of the problem in my view.
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Old April 21st, 2013 (07:52 PM).
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Simple.... It's corrupt but would work... Place border patrol bordering East, West, North, and South of America. If someone try's to come over here illegally or they're in suspicion of coming over here illegally capture them, in-prison them and if they're smuggling drugs or guns confiscate them and in-prison them. That would stop illegal smuggling which would stop criminals from getting guns "illegally". Then do it the corrupt way. Send military footmen door to door confiscating everyones gun that has them illegally. If they're legal then they must show proof of legal gun purchase and ownership. Other than that, there's no other way.

Cities tried bars on doors and windows, didn't work. Tried doing background checks and stricter gun laws to make it harder for them to get guns didn't work. Gun violence is caused mainly by gang violence and they're the ones getting them illegally. Hardcore border patrol would crack down on the smugglers making it impossible for a criminal to get a gun knowing the fact most states already disqualify criminals from owning them. Once they do that, we can have a peaceful land with little to no gun violence and not force the millions to suffer because of a few people in that margin. Tackle the black market and send military to tackle the gang members. That's how you tackle gun violence. But they will never do that.
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Old April 22nd, 2013 (01:50 AM).
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I am certainly no fan of guns, but I think that trying to outlaw guns is most definitely the wrong way to approach the situation there are several major issues with it.

First of all it's fallacious to assume that violence-related crimes will decrease. There is no evidence to suggest that. It's easy to look at all those gun related tragedies and point your finger: "Oh, but if guns weren't so readily available." Tightening gun regulations and adding more security personnel, they are all placations to please the crowd that do not address the problem. Guns are not the reason for school shootings. Everyone tries to cover up the actual problem, because it is much easier to pass another ineffective law that has zero effect and call it a day, rather than actually addressing the reasons why the shooters felt the need to take his life and the lives of those around him.

However, one thing that is almost certain is that we will see crime rates go up yet again. First we are taking thousands of law-abiding citizens and force the choice of getting rid of their guns or becoming criminals on them. It will also give rise to a new black market community controlled by gangs/organized crime.
We do have previous examples of that happening. Crime rates and gang violence were at an all-time high during the probation in the early 20th century and ever since the US declared their "War on Drugs". Enforcing those policies swallows up billions of valuable tax dollars, and our return in that investment is that we have to fear for our lives every time we pass a suburb.

I do consider myself to be on the far-far left side on the political spectrum, and stricter gun policies are usually associated with the liberal agenda. But, this is one of the few cases where I simply can't agree with it. There are no tangible benefits and will end up costing millions of dollars for no other reason other than covering up another problem until the next tragedy strikes.

Obviously my point is solely US-focused because it can't really be looked at in a global context. If a country that has had long history of strict gun control backed by a culture that is strictly anti-gun was discussing the legalization then my response would be: that's a horrible idea.
Outlawing gun use in the US? Creates more problems than it actually fixes.
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  #8    
Old April 22nd, 2013 (07:36 PM).
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Close any obvious loopholes in current firearm legislation and put reasonable and sane limitations on the functionality allowed on firearms available to the public. "Reasonable and sane" meaning the firearm is still useful in a typical self-defense scenario but not useful in a "kill ten dozen people" scenario. As a soon-to-be firearm owner, I would have no problems with these modifications to standing gun legislation and agree they would cut down on current gun violence.

Don't forget, though, that there are plenty of other ways for would-be attackers to commit crimes on a large scale. I've brought this up dozens of times, and the attack at Boston last week certainly proves that point. Sanitizing gun legislation won't solve everything, and draconian gun restrictions would only make things worse.
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Old April 22nd, 2013 (08:39 PM).
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Ironically, given say another... 5 or so years, at the most, gun control would be pointless due to 3D printing. Already people are able to construct some components that reliably work, but it won't be to long before it's advanced enough to make the entire gun.

The problem now is material strength - Current materials simply aren't strong enough to withstand that much pressure. You'd be able to get off a couple of shots with the gun, before something important either goes boom or melts... Which, now that I think of it, would be pretty funny to see.

For the military style weapons that are the center of the gun debate, my stance on those is simple enough - If a person wants to own a military style weapon, that is a weapon designed in the likeness of a military weapon, then they should have to serve some time in the military first.
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Old April 24th, 2013 (05:50 PM).
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Originally Posted by Mr. X View Post
Ironically, given say another... 5 or so years, at the most, gun control would be pointless due to 3D printing. Already people are able to construct some components that reliably work, but it won't be to long before it's advanced enough to make the entire gun.

The problem now is material strength - Current materials simply aren't strong enough to withstand that much pressure. You'd be able to get off a couple of shots with the gun, before something important either goes boom or melts... Which, now that I think of it, would be pretty funny to see.

For the military style weapons that are the center of the gun debate, my stance on those is simple enough - If a person wants to own a military style weapon, that is a weapon designed in the likeness of a military weapon, then they should have to serve some time in the military first.
Wouldn't 3D printing, if it could ever be made to make usable guns, just push the debate to ammunition instead of guns themselves?
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Old May 3rd, 2013 (08:37 AM).
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Wouldn't 3D printing, if it could ever be made to make usable guns, just push the debate to ammunition instead of guns themselves?
It's not a matter of if, but when. As with printing guns, printing ammunition is sure to follow. It wouldn't even be that much of a stretch from where 3-D printing is currently at, it would just involve being able to use different materials. Or even from there, people could print out the shells and fill the bullets by hand with some kind of makeshift gun powder or what have you.

I honestly think one of the best ways would be gun education. We shy away from guns. We have this--remarkably false--idea that guns are "bad." And so we leave them in the dark. And that just isn't good. If people were properly educated on gun use and safety, it would certainly decline a large number of the accidents that occur. It wouldn't do very much to stop the intentional violence, but in a roundabout way if people were educated about guns and felt more safe about them, then they could better use them to defend themselves--and even if but a small percentage, it might just give a little reverence towards life and the power of guns so that they don't resort to such violent tactics. Yeah, it's not exactly less "violence" but it will definitely be less tragedy. A more mature population would handle guns better, even if their maturity was founded in something else. But we can't force people to be mature, so we're a wee bit screwed.
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Old May 9th, 2013 (11:50 PM).
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The topic of gun control is usually regurgitation from someone who had an agenda to push. The statistics show that gun violence has been going down since 1993. Matter of a fact violence in America in general has been going down since 1993. The thing that is on the rise is the reporting, Media makes these ****stains on humanity into household names. Every psychopath wants to be remembered like BTK, Dahmer, Zodiac.Can you remember any of the names of the victims that these men murdered? It's not gun control its the media who wants to turn you into a couch zombie and stay on their program so they talk about the tragedies and barely mention the victims. 323 rifle deaths in 2011(FBI hasn't updated 2012) out of 311,591,917(US Population). Handguns are the main killer at 6,220 but guess what 504 deaths in chicago last year...Most of that is gang related. Look at California, Some of the strictest gun laws in the US but still have a high murder rate...why? gang related. Gangs are a plague of the civilized world.You know what a REAL problem is drunk driving...Every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver. This amounts to one death every 48 minutes.The annual cost of alcohol-related crashes totals more than $51 billion...In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. I don't see the media trying to educate people on the dangers..but they want to fill your head of things that have such a minute chance of killing you its absurd. I'm not a fool I know that there is no easy solution or a guaranteed one. But banning guns won't work, Banning alcohol won't work, Life is a cruel unforgiving place, We should not focus on the trivial things, Live your life, because you may die tomorrow. I just don't see the point in trying to play superman. There will always be crazy people willing to kill, you can take away all the sharp things all the things that shoot but if someone has evil intentions they will act on them. It's late, my hands are freezing I've rambled on long enough.
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  #13    
Old May 10th, 2013 (02:20 AM). Edited May 11th, 2013 by FreakyLocz14.
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You can't discuss gun politics in America without discussing the Second Amendment because the courts will analyze any gun control laws that are passed to determine whether or not they violate it.

While some gun control measures could decrease gun violence (such as background checks), others may have the opposite effect. Any serious legislation that aims to reduce gun violence has to have a mix or pro-gun and anti-gun measures.

Also, ways to reduce gun violence that aren't legislative should be considered, such as parents taking the initiative to talk to their kids about gun safety, as well as limiting the amount of violent media that they are exposed to. We should also be looking into the extremely powerful antipsychotic drugs that many of these high-profile shooters were on, because I'd bet my bottom dollar that the effect that they had on their minds contributed to their breakdowns.

It's foolish to blame high rates of gun violence entirely on lenient gun laws or violent movies/television/video games, or to believe that stricter gun laws are the only answer. The whole picture needs to be look at.
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Old May 10th, 2013 (05:42 AM).
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I've heard tobacco companies singing the same kind of tune - It's foolish to blame high rates of lung cancer on cigarettes.

Anyway, while their are other options avaliable, they are slow. The sad fact is that when disaster strikes, people always demand quick action. In this case, changing the laws would be that quick action.

I'm going to take this from another angle though. Some people say that the increasing rates of gun violence is because we are no longer a people of God. And, for this, I'll agree with that. We are no longer a people of God. We are no longer willing to put our faith in safety in God, we would rather put it into a man made object - An idol - A gun.

While the above is a possiable stretch, no one can deny that a lot of people in this country do idolize guns.

Anyway, State Department (Well, some part of it) just ordered Defense Distributed to take down the schematics for their printable gun. Pointless though, since it was downloaded a 100k times before. Personally, I'd love for printable guns to become commonplace, mainly because I can't wait to see the NRA's response to them. Will they support them, calling them protected by the second amendment? Or will they be against them, at the behest of the gun manufacturers, their primary funders, who are losing profits by them?
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Old May 11th, 2013 (08:29 PM). Edited May 13th, 2013 by FreakyLocz14.
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I've heard tobacco companies singing the same kind of tune - It's foolish to blame high rates of lung cancer on cigarettes.

Anyway, while their are other options avaliable, they are slow. The sad fact is that when disaster strikes, people always demand quick action. In this case, changing the laws would be that quick action.

I'm going to take this from another angle though. Some people say that the increasing rates of gun violence is because we are no longer a people of God. And, for this, I'll agree with that. We are no longer a people of God. We are no longer willing to put our faith in safety in God, we would rather put it into a man made object - An idol - A gun.

While the above is a possiable stretch, no one can deny that a lot of people in this country do idolize guns.

Anyway, State Department (Well, some part of it) just ordered Defense Distributed to take down the schematics for their printable gun. Pointless though, since it was downloaded a 100k times before. Personally, I'd love for printable guns to become commonplace, mainly because I can't wait to see the NRA's response to them. Will they support them, calling them protected by the second amendment? Or will they be against them, at the behest of the gun manufacturers, their primary funders, who are losing profits by them?
I've never seen a gun kill anyone without a person causing it to shoot. Likewise, I've never seen a cigarette cause lung cancer without a person inhaling its carbon monoxide. I've also never seen a car drive drunk without a person behind the wheel, or a large soda cause someone to get fat without a person drinking it. So, the people themselves are to blame, not the inanimate objects.

Passing laws isn't quick action because it takes time for laws to cause their intended effect, if they even work as intended at all.

I have no problem with people printing guns. I've always have a shaky relationship with the NRA. I prefer Gun Owners America.
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Old May 11th, 2013 (09:18 PM).
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We should also be looking into the extremely powerful antipsychotic drugs that many of these high-profile shooters were on, because I'd bet my bottom dollar that the effect that they had on their minds contributed to their breakdowns.
My assumption was that they should have been on something, or were told to be taking something, but that they weren't taking it. Not that they were on something that made them go loopy. They're nuts to start with. But yeah, mental health needs to be looked at just as much as gun control
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Old May 11th, 2013 (10:45 PM).
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Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
I've never seen a gun kill anyone without a person causing it to shoot. Likewise, I've never seen a cigarette cause lung cancer without a person inhaling its carbon monoxide. I've also never a car drive drunk without a person behind the wheel, or a large soda cause someone to get fat without a person drinking it. So, the people themselves are to blame, not the inanimate objects.
I agree, Guns are tools...given they are tools to kill but so are some dog breeds(which are also banned in some places) I feel humans are either too lazy or are scared of what they will find when they dig deeper. banning doesn't work, prohibition..Nope, War on drugs...Nah! Even the places that ban dog breeds don't see drops in dog bites, the population of the banned breeds actually go up. We need to stop banning and actually try to figure out the problem and fix it. Instead people want to use the shootings as a tool to push their agenda...
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Old May 12th, 2013 (01:05 AM).
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We need to stop banning and actually try to figure out the problem and fix it.
Except, you know, some people would (and do) argue that giving weapons to murder people to anyone who just asks for them, with 0 control as to whom is doing that request in many cases, is part of the problem and therefore is something that needs to be fixed.
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Old May 12th, 2013 (02:08 AM).
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Except, you know, some people would (and do) argue that giving weapons to murder people to anyone who just asks for them, with 0 control as to whom is doing that request in many cases, is part of the problem and therefore is something that needs to be fixed.
Banning doesn't work because If you're going to break the law with a weapon why would you follow the law that prohibits the weapon in the first place. I don't mind some gun control like background checks thats just common sense.plus criminals don't get guns legally, they either steal them, buy them off the black market or straw purchase them.
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Old May 12th, 2013 (02:11 AM).
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Though I am interested in this subject, I'm considerably young, and most of my opinions are probably insanely biased having lived with liberal democrats all my life with next to no variation. I'll keep an eye on this thread, though. Political debates are pretty fun to watch!
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Old May 12th, 2013 (10:22 AM).
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Banning doesn't work because If you're going to break the law with a weapon why would you follow the law that prohibits the weapon in the first place. I don't mind some gun control like background checks thats just common sense.plus criminals don't get guns legally, they either steal them, buy them off the black market or straw purchase them.
I know we have been having pages and pages and pages of discussions about this and how lost of murders are caused by regular people who bought the guns legally or by mentally disabled people who couldn't be considered traditional criminals so I encourage you to read the previous closed thread on this issue.

But being short and simple: if criminals are going to do whatever they want regardless of the law, and laws aren't going to stop any wrongdoing in any way, then what's the point of having any laws whatsoever? Let's take them all down and let life be a wild shootout in the jungle for survival.
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Old May 12th, 2013 (11:25 AM).
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But being short and simple: if criminals are going to do whatever they want regardless of the law, and laws aren't going to stop any wrongdoing in any way, then what's the point of having any laws whatsoever? Let's take them all down and let life be a wild shootout in the jungle for survival.
The laws are placed there for the law ABIDING citizens.The laws are there to show you what is socially acceptable, and all who break these laws are subject to punishment.In the average person the fear of prison and or death tends to keep them in line, the thought of not having freedom of your own life is scary. Criminals are by nature desperate, and a desperate mind is not a rational thinking mind.“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” Banning hasn't worked, Because the Criminal does not follow the rules so he will continue his business as usual, While the law ABIDING citizen has two options become an Outlaw or submit to the law.Punishing the good guys for what the bad guy does is absurd. There seems to be this misconception that there is some rise in gun deaths in America, When the truth is that it's been in decline for the past 20 years. There is over 300 million guns in the US and just as many people,With a total of 12,664 deaths majority being handguns, In other words the whole "assault rifle" ban wouldn't do anything. The reasons for that is
1. all the rifles would be grandfathered in so they would still be there.
2. because guns deaths hardly include them.

The ban is a knee-jerk reaction, a hollow "victory"...to put it simply a feel good measure for the general public who aren't aware of statistics.The assault ban was put in place during the clinton years and yet school shootings still happened the ban ended in 04.Now I'm all for gun control, Hell i feel that gun ownership is a privilege I don't think just because you're born American that you SHOULD have a gun, If you're a proven responsible human being with no felony/or violent convictions (that include misdemeanor domestic violence)Than yes you have the right, You've earned it and shown you can handle it.Now there is cases where clean record guys snap and go a-wall but thats hard to predict but someone who has shown they cannot handle the responsibility should not own a gun.This whole 'Murica attitude where i demand to own guns because I'm 'Murican is absolutely absurd.Now I know this will offend a lot of die hard Americans, I'm American(if thats not obvious by now) and i love firearms, But I'm also aware of their lethality. I feel regulations will help curve some of the violence, But it will NOT end it, there will always be some nutjob thats dead set on killing regardless if guns existed or not.Now My post has gone on long enough I've been rambling and just over all off topic but the bottom line is,Banning isn't the solution there are other methods like combating gang violence,education, responsible gun ownership, But you will never be able to stop crazy.
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  #23    
Old May 13th, 2013 (03:04 AM). Edited May 13th, 2013 by FreakyLocz14.
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I know we have been having pages and pages and pages of discussions about this and how lost of murders are caused by regular people who bought the guns legally or by mentally disabled people who couldn't be considered traditional criminals so I encourage you to read the previous closed thread on this issue.

But being short and simple: if criminals are going to do whatever they want regardless of the law, and laws aren't going to stop any wrongdoing in any way, then what's the point of having any laws whatsoever? Let's take them all down and let life be a wild shootout in the jungle for survival.
I haven't seen any high-profile shooters, at least in my country, obtain their guns legally. Even the Sandy Hook shooters obtained his guns illegally. It looks like even the pro-gun people here don't have a problem with background checks, so that should help to keep the mentally ill from buying guns, but Ragetendo and I are concerned with the push to ban guns altogether, or to ban so-called "assault weapons". That will never work. Prohibition never works. What works is allowing something controversial to be legal, but to have reasonable regulations in place, such as the marijuana laws in Colorado and Washington, and the prostitution laws in Nevada.
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Old May 13th, 2013 (09:45 AM).
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Ragetendo
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Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
I haven't seen any high-profile shooters, at least in my country. Even the Sandy Hook shooters obtained his guns illegally. It looks like even the pro-gun people here don't have a problem with background checks, so that should help to keep the mentally ill from buying guns, but Ragetendo and I are concerned with the push to ban guns altogether, or to ban so-called "assault weapons". That will never work. Prohibition never works. What works is allowing something controversial to be legal, but to have reasonable regulations in place, such as the marijuana laws in Colorado and Washington, and the prostitution laws in Nevada.
Agreed, Regulation and Education.I feel the media should stop with their saturation of the crimes, Look at that scumbag Jodi Arias all day long on new channels.
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Old May 13th, 2013 (10:49 AM).
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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While it's true that an assault weapons ban wouldn't stop the majority of gun deaths, it would still stop a few and that's a good enough reason. Yes, people will have their guns grandfathered it, but you have to start somewhere. These kinds of guns aren't things that non-military, non-law enforcement people should have anyway.

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Criminals are by nature desperate, and a desperate mind is not a rational thinking mind.
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Now there is cases where clean record guys snap and go a-wall but thats hard to predict
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there will always be some nutjob thats dead set on killing regardless if guns existed or not
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there are other methods like combating gang violence,education, responsible gun ownership, But you will never be able to stop crazy.
I don't think criminals are so clear-cut. There are shades of grey between a total law-breaking criminal and a total law-abiding citizen. Criminals do follow most laws because they can think rationally and know that some laws are, in their minds, worth the risk of breaking. It's not that they disrespect all laws because they're criminals - there are plenty of people who don't have respect for some or all laws who aren't criminals - it's that they're weighing the risks, weighing the pros and cons, and are taking a chance. I mean, we've all broken some laws or rules at one time or another, usually because the punishment wasn't very strict and/or we weren't likely to be caught and/or we didn't think the law should apply to us in that situation. That's just what your "criminals" think, only they're willing to take biggest risks than most of us. There is still a lot of grey where you'll find your domestic abusers and other violent types who aren't as far gone as gang members, but aren't exactly what you'd want to use as your example of a law-abiding citizen. These people are also ones who we should expect, from time to time, to use guns to attack people. Most of the time they follow the law, and would probably pass a background check without a problem, but they shouldn't have access to guns.

What I'm saying is, everyday people like you and me who follow the law most of the time can be criminals and break other laws when we think it suits us. That's part of why I think lots of restrictions on guns is appropriate, because almost anyone could be a bad egg who might do something bad with a gun. I'm not necessarily arguing for an all-out ban, but since guns rarely protect people and much more often harm people on accident it's not like we'd be putting people in jeopardy if we banned gun ownership, and it would protect us from that group of "criminals" who won't risk breaking the law for a gun. Of course since guns are so prevalent they're easy to get. One problem which I don't think gets addressed enough is that we make so many guns. If guns were rarer, if you had to order one and wait for it to be made, then there wouldn't be so many extra ones floating around being hard to track.

I agree that education is important. I don't believe in putting all our eggs in one basket. We should do all the things to reduce gun violence, including restrictions, education, combating gang violence and all the rest.
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