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  #51    
Old May 14th, 2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
Again, saying "asking to", and linking it to choosing is fair, but then to link "harassment" (To irritate or torment persistently) to it... I never expressed that. My statement had nothing to do with risky behavior or sexual harassment. Pester is much different. Merely saying, "You are beautiful", would constitute pestering in the context. Or a simple gaze. (Unwanted petty annoyances). Clearly, there are unfair implication being made.
It's the subtext of what you said. When you use words like "ask for" you're bringing along a lot of extra baggage that, whether you intend for it or not, includes a degree of blaming or shaming as I wrote about in my previous post. It's the blaming which I take issue with. It's why being careful with the words we use is so important on these kinds of topics.

There's also the slippery slope nature of this topic. When someone says a woman "asks for" some kind of unwanted attention even if it's relatively harmless it's part of a larger narrative that says anything a man does in response to a woman's choices is the woman's responsibility ("If she doesn't want to be bothered she shouldn't wear a bikini.") instead of the man's responsibility to control his actions. Smart people can understand the different between ogling, catcalling, and assault, but those distinctions get blurred very easily and so any time the "asking for" phrase is used it helps, inadvertently, reinforce the idea that women are to blame for the bad things that happen to them (even if someone is only using it in the context of something minor).

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Originally Posted by Fenneking View Post
If a woman chooses to wear a low-cut shirt/bikini/short-shorts or a man decides to go for a jog shirtless/tanktop/short-shorts, they are choosing to reveal their bodies in some type of way, and spectators, regardless of their control, may lust for them. Merely a person's hair and face can be sexual attractive to others. The gaze from a spectator of one's beauty to some cultures in the Middle East is against their Jihad. The point of the comment was that unveiling in Middle Eastern countries should not be a pressured by the Western World as it was during the colonization period in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebannon, ect. When we merely show our bodies in any respect, we are choosing to allow for the possibility to have someone be sexual attracted toward us, make comments on our beauty, or make friendly chit-chat (flirting). In certain middle eastern societies, women may not want anyone to have a sexual attraction toward oneself from others, a stranger to comment on their beauty, or unwanted friendly advancements. Therefore, these women should be able to choose to veil or not, rather than be pressured to unveil.
If people choose to wear a veil, a hijab, or whatever, I don't care, but no one should be forced to wear one or prevented from wearing one. I've met Muslim women who wear headscarves and ones who don't. It should be up to them. I don't think we disagree on that. It's just that there there seems to be an implicit something or other saying that a woman who doesn't want attention should do something about it when, really, men should not give unwanted attention. Obviously where to draw the line is going to be a little blurry. A woman may not want to even speak to a man, but it shouldn't be unreasonable for a man to say 'hello' just as long as he understands that he has no right to a conversation if the woman chooses to ignore him.
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  #52    
Old May 14th, 2013, 12:08 PM
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This is probably one of the stupidest conversations I've seen in a while. I mean that with love.
Look people, let me break this down simply for you. . .
Treat people as they should be treated, and don't be so damn sensitive.

Me? Yeah, okay, I do crack jokes and say things that are sexist. And yes, I do treat women a certain way, depending on their personality and if they don't say anything about it. Yes, I will protect women in a fight. Damn straight I'll treat you more gently (sometimes) if you're more 'girly'. But you know what, I do because I was raised in that way. If you say you want me to treat you equally then I'll treat you like a dude. I give the same amount of respect to everyone when I first meet them, regardless of sex, race, age, sexual orientation, whatever. It's what you do afterwards that changes that. If you're an ass I'll give you the least due respect. If you're a good person then I'll treat you like one.
That's what you're wanting right? Equality? Or am I sexist because of my initial treatment towards females? No, because I give the same amount of respect to everyone.
In my eyes, it honestly doesn't matter if you say things like "Pretty big word for a chick." or "Why aren't you in the kitchen?" So long as you're saying it in good humor.
That's where part of the blame for this international bumbling falls on 'Feminists'.
If somebody is being a jackass, let them be a jackass! What gain do you get from causing a big stink about it? Does it really get on your nerves that much that you have to waste your time making sure that everybody else knows how much of a jackass that one guy is?

And Scarf, you're picking at words.
Don't ignore the forest for trees, if it's obvious that somebody is saying something that is in agreement with you then don't pick it apart.
Not everybody has to dance around their words, as though afraid they would offend.

Now, let's think about this. . . You're all here because you agree that people should be treated equally.
But how, may I ask, is posting on a pokemon forum going to change anything?
So, since you spent the time to read this, and me to type it, could we please just agree on one thing?
"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."

Edit:
Oh damn, I give up.
My point was missed, parts of what I said dismissed, and overall I probably will be seen as an idiot, or an ass. I could clarify, but I have foresight enough to know that minds cannot be changed over the internet.
Go ahead and keep spending time talking about sexism on a pokemon forum, meanwhile I'll be changing the world. I'm crazy enough to.
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Last edited by Ardent; May 14th, 2013 at 04:54 PM.
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  #53    
Old May 14th, 2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo View Post
This is probably one of the stupidest conversations I've seen in a while. I mean that with love.
Look people, let me break this down simply for you. . .
Treat people as they should be treated, and don't be so damn sensitive.

Me? Yeah, okay, I do crack jokes and say things that are sexist. And yes, I do treat women a certain way, depending on their personality and if they don't say anything about it. Yes, I will protect women in a fight. Damn straight I'll treat you more gently (sometimes) if you're more 'girly'. But you know what, I do because I was raised in that way. If you say you want me to treat you equally then I'll treat you like a dude. I give the same amount of respect to everyone when I first meet them, regardless of sex, race, age, sexual orientation, whatever. It's what you do afterwards that changes that. If you're an ass I'll give you the least due respect. If you're a good person then I'll treat you like one.
That's what you're wanting right? Equality? Or am I sexist because of my initial treatment towards females? No, because I give the same amount of respect to everyone.
In my eyes, it honestly doesn't matter if you say things like "Pretty big word for a chick." or "Why aren't you in the kitchen?" So long as you're saying it in good humor.
That's where part of the blame for this international bumbling falls on 'Feminists'.
If somebody is being a jackass, let them be a jackass! What gain do you get from causing a big stink about it? Does it really get on your nerves that much that you have to waste your time making sure that everybody else knows how much of a jackass that one guy is?

And Scarf, you're picking at words.
Don't ignore the forest for trees, if it's obvious that somebody is saying something that is in agreement with you then don't pick it apart.
Not everybody has to dance around their words, as though afraid they would offend.

Now, let's think about this. . . You're all here because you agree that people should be treated equally.
But how, may I ask, is posting on a pokemon forum going to change anything?
So, since you spent the time to read this, and me to type it, could we please just agree on one thing?
"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
It's never just "that one guy" who is a jackass. There are lots of jackasses out there. If there were only one jackass in the world then, sure, this might seem a tad much, but there are a whole lot of them. If I'm being honest the way your post sounds like it's talking down to us comes off as jackass-y. I don't know if you intended it that way, but I want you to know that's how it's coming across to me.

But anyway, we weren't agreeing about everything, and it's not "dancing around words." It's about communicating what you mean and not what you don't mean. It's about avoiding miscommunication and increasing awareness of the things you don't mean to say but nevertheless say because of how you word what you say. It's about making sure that when we talk I don't just look at what you say and think "ass" and you don't look at what I say and think "oversensitive."

What does this being a Pokemon forum have to do with anything? It's a forum. A place where people communicate and share thoughts and ideas. We're doing that. And we're not detracting from any of the Pokemon-based discussion either, so no loss to the primary reason this forum exists.

And I think we need to talk more about what a "good man" is as much as anything. I for one would start that discussion by saying that a "good man" probably doesn't say things like "Pretty big word for a chick." I mean, imagine if there were kids around. What kind of example would this man be setting, especially for a kid who may not be able to tell if the comment was made as a joke (if in fact it is a joke and not representative of how the man feels about women)? I would say a good man communicates and tries to communicate as best he can.
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  #54    
Old May 14th, 2013, 03:22 PM
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Rococo, calling the conversation "the stupidest you've seen in a while" does you no favors. It just makes you look condescending and like you don't have anything of worth to add. Next time, try not to insult a serious conversation if you want to become a part of it, okay?

You speak about these things like there's nothing beyond the surface level of meaning. You are wrong in that assessment. Studies have shown time and time again that sexist attitudes become ingrained in both women and men, affecting subconsciously how they act and think. For example, the stereotype threat I mentioned earlier - where a woman learned that men are thought to be better at something, they do worse. As soon as a kid can understand what's being said, they're affected by what's said. You may not mean any harm when you make kitchen jokes at your female friends, but all it does is cement in everyone's minds in the vicinity the stereotype that affects everyone.

And I find it interesting that you consider "equal" to be treated "like a dude". You don't think it's interesting that you consider how you treat men normal and how you treat women "different"? It's a very common thread in society; men are normal and women are other. Recently, there was a massive controversy on Wikipedia because all American women fiction authors were moved to "American Women Novelists", while the page "American Novelists" was left to be entirely for men. Because men are the default, as you so poignantly pointed out with your example. Maybe instead of being worse to everyone by default, you should try being kinder to everyone by default.

"If somebody is being a jackass, let them be a jackass! What gain do you get from causing a big stink about it? Does it really get on your nerves that much that you have to waste your time making sure that everybody else knows how much of a jackass that one guy is?"

It's really amusing how you have literally no experience as to what sexism is, how it affects women, or anything except for your own male opinion, and yet you find it acceptable to tell women how to deal with sexism. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I don't tell people who work with wood for a living when I've never done anything with wood in my life what kinds of wood they should be using or that their technique is wrong, especially if I don't even have any legitimate research on the topic, just because I've seen things made of wood in my life. Edit: To make that clear, as someone who can never experience sexism the way women do, either you have to come in here with some solid research or you're going to be dismissed because you're not speaking from experience or knowledge. If you have no experience on the subject, and you have no knowledge on the subject, why should someone with both listen to you?
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  #55    
Old May 14th, 2013, 08:19 PM
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Well feminism does have its merits (many merits), but it completely depends on how it is carried out. If you ask ten different feminist what feminism is, you will get very different responses. Some might be more valid than the other, but there is no clear or correct definition of feminism, which changes in meaning with the change in sentiments of its membership. Feminist of the 1920's are vastly different from feminists of the 2000's. Therefore, often labeled, "radical feminism" is feminism, but does not emulate the sentiments of most feminists. The same can be said for any membership of an idealogical movement. Therefore, I think its a bit unfair to dismiss ones criticisms of some forms of feminism that are being implemented. When explicated to someone that a certain behavior is not true feminism, it implies there is a true definition or practice of feminism. Similarly, like conservatism, neo-conservatives and fiscal-libertarian leaning conservatives might proclaims that the other does not understand true conservatism. I do see this happening in this thread.

Therefore, I think it is more productive in discussing how feminism is best employed in its aims and practices rather than saying feminism is right or wrong. Essentially, we should be explaining the pros and cons of the various feminist movements and ideations rather than completely defending or dismissing all aspects as if only one form of feminism is being practiced.

With that said, criticisms, with logical and reasonable thought, should be taken note of in order to truly defend feminism. I will say that previous discussion was based on semantics since I made a criticism of a certain practice of feminism in which is not productive and detracts from the meritable practices of feminism. I could have phrased it better with one different word choice, I probably should have sooner admitted so, but by the same token, perhaps implications should not have been made, it is dangerous to have discussion when the content is marred by erroneous arguments over what a statement might imply. I have a background in logic, so I often overlook things others might assume, but are not explicit, and again, other words could have better expressed the point more eloquently, but all-in-all I think we agree that women should not simply impose their cultures on other women. Yet, perhaps, like with women being enslaved as sex slaves to men, Western culture and ideals would oppose such a thing and should impose a change of culture, but only when the culture coalesces with restriction of women's rights. I think the example of the hijab, forcing/pressuring women to unveil, is just one of many examples in which the culture does not necessarily coalesce with restriction of women's rights, and therefore should not be advocated by feminist that do engage in that behavior.

So toujours, I agree the discussion of feminism, in general, can be very productive. Though, I think it could be more productive if we were on the same page that we are determining the meritable vs non-meritable forms of feminism, and how to establish a more productive form rather than assume only one true form exists. That way, we can have a more balanced discussion in which we can identify a more viable ideation of what feminism should be.
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  #56    
Old May 21st, 2013, 07:43 PM
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A decent discussion so far, for the most part. A lot fairer than some of the absurdity I see elsewhere on the internet.

I take issue with a lot of the "neo-feminism" that's being pushed lately. I proudly support egalitarianism, but some of these "neo-feminists" are pushing for female supremacy and outright scoff at men's issues, as if the fact that there are women's issues completely negates the very real problems men face. These people think that men (especially heterosexual white men) are somehow incapable of having problems or being discriminated against. This is absurd and flies ni the face of reality. This sort of attitude only leads to more discrimination. I acknowledge there are women's issues that need to be addressed, but there are men's issues, too. These folk need to open their mind and realize that the end goal is not just "getting better treatment for women," it's "getting fair treatment for everyone."


A few things I noticed while briefly scrolling through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogles View Post
lol @ everyone saying "feminism has reached what it accomplished"
You are correct, there are still issues that need to be worked on.
Quote:
when lots of cases of sexual assault aren't taking seriously in the court system. shame on all of you tbh.
That applies to both sexes, not just women.

Quote:
e: In an effort to give my post some more substance I proudly identify as a feminist because I respect the women in my life and therefor respect all women. It's honestly that simple.
Your respect should not be dependent on someone's sex at all. You should not respect women carte blanche, nor should you fail to respect someone just because he happens to be a male.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogles View Post
I feel like the term "radical feminism" is stupid. I don't see people supporting equal rights going around and blowing up buildings like we would equate other radical movements to be.
The KKK didn't blow up buildings, either. Radicalism is not limited to blowing up buildings, it is a term used to describe those who have taken an idea too far. The idea that "women deserve better treatment," for instance, should not be taken to the extreme "women deserve the best treatment." It should be taken as "women deserve equal treatment."
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  #57    
Old May 21st, 2013, 08:06 PM
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That applies to both sexes, not just women.
I'm aware of that??????????????? Sexual assault is a terrible thing but considering that it mostly happens to women it isn't that far of a stretch that it's more of a woman centred issue than a man centred one. If we can't take it seriously when women are sexually assaulted, how are we supposed to take it seriously when men are? Not taking it seriously hurts both sexes, which I'm sure you know already.

Quote:
Your respect should not be dependent on someone's sex at all. You should not respect women carte blanche, nor should you fail to respect someone just because he happens to be a male.
Oh for ****s sake you're just putting words in my mouth. Everyone has their own values of personal respect but the fact that I want women to be seen as equal to men means I have respect for the women in my life. But in case you still want to make assumptions about my value system I respect people for more than their gender jfc.


Quote:
The KKK didn't blow up buildings, either. Radicalism is not limited to blowing up buildings, it is a term used to describe those who have taken an idea too far. The idea that "women deserve better treatment," for instance, should not be taken to the extreme "women deserve the best treatment." It should be taken as "women deserve equal treatment."
It'll still grate me 5ever but what can I do? It's not like I can have people stop using the term.

I agree that both genders deserve to be equal, but I hate the term "egalitarianism". It sounds like a bunch of poop for people who are too afraid to identify as a feminist because people start equating feminism to "feminizais" or other bullcrap. The end goals of "feminism" and "egalitarianism" are the same. Both lines of thought are the same. Feminism recognizes and understands that there are problems that affect men as well, but focuses towards women because the problems are intertwined with each other, as when I made a point about sexual assault not being taken seriously earlier.

People who refuse to identify as feminists but identify as "egalitarians" or whatever the hell should actually educate themselves about feminism and/or grow up and stop being scared of feminism being used as a buzzword in today's society.
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  #58    
Old May 22nd, 2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogles View Post
I'm aware of that??????????????? Sexual assault is a terrible thing but considering that it mostly happens to women it isn't that far of a stretch that it's more of a woman centred issue than a man centred one. If we can't take it seriously when women are sexually assaulted, how are we supposed to take it seriously when men are? Not taking it seriously hurts both sexes, which I'm sure you know already.
All right, I was just pointing it out. It's an issue that doesn't get much attention.

Quote:
Oh for ****s sake you're just putting words in my mouth.
Quote:
I respect the women in my life and therefor respect all women
You said verbatim that you respect all women.

Quote:
Everyone has their own values of personal respect but the fact that I want women to be seen as equal to men means I have respect for the women in my life. But in case you still want to make assumptions about my value system I respect people for more than their gender jfc.
That does not match what you said earlier. I did not make an assumption, I directly restated what you said.

Quote:
I agree that both genders deserve to be equal, but I hate the term "egalitarianism". It sounds like a bunch of poop for people who are too afraid to identify as a feminist because people start equating feminism to "feminizais" or other bullcrap.
No, it is a more accurate and gender-neutral term. "Feminism," actual definition aside (as it actually holds multiple definitions) suggests exclusive female advocacy by its use of the prefix "femin." "Egalitarianism" is directly defined as "the political doctrine that holds that all people in a society should have equal rights from birth."

Quote:
The end goals of "feminism" and "egalitarianism" are the same. Both lines of thought are the same. Feminism recognizes and understands that there are problems that affect men as well, but focuses towards women because the problems are intertwined with each other, as when I made a point about sexual assault not being taken seriously earlier.
The fact that it is female-focused (and in some cases misused altogether), is precisely why I use the term "egalitarianism" to describe my position. It has nothing to do with "being afraid to identify as a feminist." There is no misunderstanding with the word "egalitarianism," it has one meaning and one meaning alone, there is no contention over its definition.

For the record, there are several popular types of feminism, it is by no means only a term equitable with egalitarianism. Some forms of feminism are egalitarian, but that is by no means the case for all of them.

Quote:
People who refuse to identify as feminists but identify as "egalitarians" or whatever the hell should actually educate themselves about feminism and/or grow up and stop being scared of feminism being used as a buzzword in today's society.
You completely misunderstood my reasons and drew fallacious conclusions based on those faulty reasons. I would suggest you refrain from making definitive personal attacks based purely on conjecture.
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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
- H. L. Mencken, unsourced

Quote:
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
- Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980) [source]

Last edited by twocows; May 22nd, 2013 at 02:02 PM.
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  #59    
Old May 22nd, 2013, 02:19 PM
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I think that, as terms, "feminism" and "egalitarianism" are both imperfect.

"Feminism," for all the different forms it's taken, is generally based on the idea that women typically have it worse off in the world than men. The name though can suggests to some as favoring women over men. "Egalitarianism," especially in the context of a discussion about feminism, can suggest that it is the "better" term, and that then suggests that other terms like feminism are less valid. So when you come from the perspective that feminism is important because women suffer a disproportionate amount of discrimination it can come off badly to talk about egalitarianism as the better "ism." We all think people should be treated fairly, but we worry about false equivalencies. So while it's true that men have problems, it's also true that in many areas of society women have more or worse problems to overcome, or simply problems that men don't have in the first place. We want to make sure that gets acknowledged and that we're all working from that understanding.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twocows View Post
That does not match what you said earlier. I did not make an assumption, I directly restated what you said.
Whatever you say

Quote:
No, it is a more accurate and gender-neutral term. "Feminism," actual definition aside (as it actually holds multiple definitions) suggests exclusive female advocacy by its use of the prefix "femin." "Egalitarianism" is directly defined as "the political doctrine that holds that all people in a society should have equal rights from birth."
It advocates for women because women are the group who has to faces more challenges and because the problems are interlinked together as I said earlier.

Quote:
The fact that it is female-focused (and in some cases misused altogether), is precisely why I use the term "egalitarianism" to describe my position. It has nothing to do with "being afraid to identify as a feminist." There is no misunderstanding with the word "egalitarianism," it has one meaning and one meaning alone, there is no contention over its definition.
Which is why we should try and identify as feminist to clear up misconceptions with the movement rather than making a new movement which has the same end goal.

Quote:
You completely misunderstood my reasons and drew fallacious conclusions based on those faulty reasons. I would suggest you refrain from making definitive personal attacks based purely on conjecture.
That was actually a broad statement meant for many people and not one based on yourself because there are people who actually do think that way. Although I suppose you attacking me on a supposed attack is pretty funny, isn't it?
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I don't like a lot of LGBT advocates if they express their views in a way that will only serve to eventually reverse the roles of oppressor and victim.
translation: I am a whiny straight person who is afraid of the thought of LGBT people standing up for themselves if it happens to pierce society the way I see it because I currently stand in a privileged light.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 06:36 PM
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To be fair you directed your statement to people that "refuse to identify as feminists but identify as "egalitarians" or whatever the hell" and he states that he feels that way. So you were directly addressing him in your last point.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
To be fair you directed your statement to people that "refuse to identify as feminists but identify as "egalitarians" or whatever the hell" and he states that he feels that way. So you were directly addressing him in your last point.
Fair enough. Terribly sorry about that then twocows. I shouldn't be debating on an empty stomach and having finished two exams
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I don't like a lot of LGBT advocates if they express their views in a way that will only serve to eventually reverse the roles of oppressor and victim.
translation: I am a whiny straight person who is afraid of the thought of LGBT people standing up for themselves if it happens to pierce society the way I see it because I currently stand in a privileged light.
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Old May 24th, 2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogles View Post
Whatever you say
It's more what you said.
Quote:
It advocates for women because women are the group who has to faces more challenges and because the problems are interlinked together as I said earlier.
If the goal is really equality, then I think it's better to use the term that means "equality" rather than the term with fifteen different definitions that suggests something entirely opposite equality. And we should not exclusively advocate for "whoever faces more challenges," it's not as though we're limited in what we can advocate. Push for equality for both sexes at the same time.
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Which is why we should try and identify as feminist to clear up misconceptions with the movement rather than making a new movement which has the same end goal.
It's not a matter of misconception, it's a matter of different groups using the same word to different ends. And feminists concentrate more on the female side.
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That was actually a broad statement meant for many people and not one based on yourself because there are people who actually do think that way. Although I suppose you attacking me on a supposed attack is pretty funny, isn't it?
If it was not directed at me, do not direct it at me.
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Originally Posted by Moogles View Post
Fair enough. Terribly sorry about that then twocows. I shouldn't be debating on an empty stomach and having finished two exams
It's fine.
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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
- H. L. Mencken, unsourced

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There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
- Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980) [source]
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