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  #151    
Old May 30th, 2013, 11:45 AM
awolffromspace's Avatar
awolffromspace
whatever happens, happens
 
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Uh, I'll just rename this server to "(pseudo-official) PC Chat v.2". But then, what's the point in keeping it if it just exists to take away activity from the PC Chat, ya?

I can ask Steve if he's interested in hosting another server.
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  #152    
Old May 30th, 2013, 12:00 PM
Miss Fortune's Avatar
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Even if we get another server that is more for the community that would rather battle I, and I am sure the other mods feel the same way, think that our server should stay as well. Yes I know to some it seems pointless to have a separate server just for chatting, but the server has become a part of us and I know that everyone would be sad to see it go. I don't personally see the harm in letting it stay.
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  #153    
Old May 30th, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Pretty sure this new server shouldn't affect the current server in anyway. :P
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  #154    
Old May 30th, 2013, 12:29 PM
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I forgive you, Chris Bosh.
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
You do realize that in order to this to fully be successful, that the current server would have to essentially replace the IRC, something that Steve himself voiced opposition against? PC having three different chatrooms is definitely going to be quite a messy way to go about with things, just saying. And having /another/ battle server endorsed by PC? It's definitely going to be quite hectic, especially when h-staff have to deal with watching over this server, that means they're going to have another server to watch on their shoulders. I'll let them speak for themselves on that matter, but in my opinion, I don't think they'd be too comfortable with that.
With all due respect, I don't really care about the hstaff burden, especially one that is...well, entirely speculative. They can speak for themselves. Also, hstaff having "another server watch on their shoulders" would be entirely up to them--every previous iteration of the battle server was entirely ignored by hstaff...even Luke and BeachBoy were rather absent. This was a winning formula in the past and I don't see any need to change it. It's you guys who are going to have the active server with mass appeal (aka "needing" more hstaff oversight), not us. But I frankly have neither the time nor the desire to pander to PC's hstaff here. I've been witnessing the disintegration of the battling community I helped to build and maintain for half a decade and I'm going to do what I can to reverse its impending demise, and if higher staff wants to block the new server then they can go ahead and do that as I suppose they have the right to but until then I think we should be considering the best interests of the battling community (without throwing the thriving community on the current server under the bus, for sure) instead of whether hstaff may or may not be overburdened by lurking a server with six active users.
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  #155    
Old May 30th, 2013, 01:06 PM
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"Gee, I really wonder what's going to build a stable community..."

I noticed that every single person that has offered an argument for this server has neglected to provide an argument as to how it would not take activity from the current one. Especially Aero's post in which (no offense Aero), it was just "oh it shouldn't affect the server".

Key word being shouldn't. I remember buying lottery tickets every now and then and I keep losing money instead of winning. That kind of thing shouldn't happen, but it did. That kind of made me upset, just saying.

But that's not the point.

As long as I've been involved in the battling community of PC (which is for quite a while), I've noticed a plethora of issues regarding the structure of this server. You say it'll only have "six users", which I'm not sure is a metaphor to illustrate your point or whether it's a direct contradiction to Jake's point on building an entire battle community from the ground up. Last time I checked, a community was more than just six users (at least the one you and the others are hoping for). Now let me paint why exactly why I'm not totally on board with this.

I remember voicing my opposition in the Server Staff Chat. Jake argued over and over that no one would be shoved aside, no one would be isolated, that kind of stuff. But surprise! What do I see?

Quote:
It should be linked to in the S&M main forum so that new users and randoms at least know where our battlers are, while the current server can be linked to...somewhere else.
You're essentially kicking out the current server in place of the new one. Pray tell, do you have any answers as to what's going to happen to the current server afterwards, or do you plan to stop caring about it altogether? With all due respect, I find that absolutely ludicrous. Sure, our community isn't the best community out there, our community isn't a total representation of what should be S&M, I totally get that, but where in the honest heck do you guys expect to get your users from if this server is affiliated with PC? Our server? You do realize we have to host commdays and whatnot too, and have to advertise around PC just as much as you guys do, right? That's the kind of thing that would happen if this "new server" was affiliated with PC. If you ever expect to "build" a community, whether competitive or not, you're going to have to get the word out about it, somehow, instead of just sitting there, waiting for it to happen.

Which....let me go back to the first point I was making. Why is it that I said that? Is it because our current community is unstable? No. Not really. Actually, I find this kind of ridiculous in a more amusing fashion, and I'm going to explain why right now:

I remember back about a few years back, when all of us tried to rely on Vrai to being back activity to CBC/BC/S&M. We were pretty much lost out of all options, and I remember the what, 10 or so "Get to work guys, and lets make S&M what it used to be!" threads that kept being made, all hoping for a community, all hoping for something to be made. We didn't care what kind of community it was, casual or competitive, as long as we had one and (C)BC flourished with activity.

Well, you guys got what you asked for. It might not be activity on the forum, but it's activity on the server. And now that you guys aren't happy with the current community, you seek to establish another one. May I remind you how long it took to even get something remotely like this community to spring up? I'm pretty damn sure this community didn't grow overnight; some people came because of advertisements, some people came because Commday events, some people because our server had a lax environment like that.

If this was a case of not affiliating it with PC, I couldn't care less about what you guys do with it, but then again, you would be in a hole as far as advertising it. Again, you'd have to get your users somehow, and if it isn't affiliated with PC, then you're quite stuck as far as where to get them from, because advertising it on other servers is pretty much out of the question, god knows how many spammers have tried to do that, already.

I remember when I told Jake that I had a gut feeling something bad was going to happen. And here it is, right in front of my face. I guess I made the right decision in trusting in that gut feeling for the aforementioned reasons, and also this:

Quote:
Also, hstaff having "another server watch on their shoulders" would be entirely up to them--every previous iteration of the battle server was entirely ignored by hstaff...even Luke and BeachBoy were rather absent.
What happened back then has very little to do with what happened now. We have a different h-staff, and they seem to care about the ongoings of the server. If they care about the ongoing of the new battle server, then so be it. If you're going to be advertising this new server, they might as well check out what it's about and watch over that too. Just my two cents and observations from what has happened so far.

Quote:
I've been witnessing the disintegration of the battling community I helped to build and maintain for half a decade and I'm going to do what I can to reverse its impending demise
By causing the demise of this server? You do realize that's an incredibly counterproductive way to go about with things, right? Of course, all of this is assuming you still have plans to affiliate with PC. Since the current server is already affiliated with PC, it'll carry a very messy state of affairs that I'm sure no one would want to get involved with.

Quote:
I think we should be considering the best interests of the battling community (without throwing the thriving community on the current server under the bus, for sure)
But that's pretty much...essentially what you're doing by creating a separate server affiliated with PC. Heck, you've even said this nifty paragraph yourself:

Quote:
And just for clarification (since this did "come out of" the pg13 thing even if I mostly used it as a pretense to whine about the current state of the server lol) we would indeed be more laid back about all that though I do want to mirror what Wolf said on the server which was basically that Mature Room is the Immature Room. If we're going to have a server that is more substance-driven, some of the more out there stuff I would expect to be supplanted by, well, substance, as sex tends to drive down the quality of the chat. I think I'm still scarred from my last year on PO.
Do you know what else has a mature room? Do you know what else has PG-13 rules? Oh right, the current server does. So you're essentially creating a carbon copy of the server, except you're isolating the casual battlers from the competitive ones. I don't see that as being too fair as we're supposed to be (as Jake has been saying in the chat) flexible community-wise, but each to their own, I suppose, if that's something you're really going for.

Ultimately, my opinion has come to this: If you guys decide for this server not to affiliate with PC, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, since apparently it's otherwise, it's causing a whole mess of issues that honestly shouldn't happen in the first place. You say yourself that it's not meant to throw the current server under the bus, but when you're tossing it aside just to say "well.. it can go..somewhere" it really implies otherwise.

Now, are we an excellent representation of what S&M should be? Not really, and I'll fully agree with you on that on every scale. However, we are a community, and I don't think anything should happen to at least tear that apart, which is what creating a new battle server would do.

In case that wasn't clear, I'll just sum it up here:
  • The new battle server is created. You and whoever else regulars that chat is going to frequent it, and I assume is going to immediately start building it from the ground up.
  • In the process of building it from the ground up, as I mentioned, you're going to have to start somewhere. This means getting the word out on PC (since the server would be supported by PC). Now, with the current server already advertising, it would make for a very confused mess because the users won't know exactly which chat to frequent.
  • This also goes upon my previous post of Steve disagreeing with allowing the current server to replace the IRC. Three chats is honestly way too much, you're going to have to get rid of one because these three chats all serve the same purpose, except two of them are for battling, and one of them is "more serious" about it. That's really all the differences that I can see.
  • With that being said, it'll just have to be decided whether to keep the current server to demolish in favor of the new one. Since all I see changing is you becoming auth and the server being more "serious" and kicking out causal batters (which I oppose), I really do not think it's worth it.
  • If you're really that determined to bring about such interest within competitive, then I just highly suggest you do it with the current server. I don't blame you if you just lost all hope or whatever, heck I don't battle myself. But I would if I had motivation, I would if there was something to make me battle again, but I also want a COMMUNITY for casual chat. I think it's going to get stale if all the topic is going to be about is "oh x pokemon is x weak" all the time. I like to mix it up between competitive talk and casual talk. Though that's just me, personally.

I really hope you'll see where I'm coming from when I bring all of these issues up. Of course, this is all assuming it'll be in direct affiliation with PC as you've stated.

Last edited by Zorua; May 30th, 2013 at 01:38 PM.
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  #156    
Old May 30th, 2013, 03:09 PM
Anti's Avatar
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I forgive you, Chris Bosh.
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
"Gee, I really wonder what's going to build a stable community..."

I noticed that every single person that has offered an argument for this server has neglected to provide an argument as to how it would not take activity from the current one. Especially Aero's post in which (no offense Aero), it was just "oh it shouldn't affect the server".

Key word being shouldn't. I remember buying lottery tickets every now and then and I keep losing money instead of winning. That kind of thing shouldn't happen, but it did. That kind of made me upset, just saying.

But that's not the point.
Because the current server is not my concern. How about you provide an argument for why it's fair to the battling community to have to go to a server where the battlers are the minority. I think that's much more compelling seeing as the purpose of the server is supposed to serve the S&M community.

Anyway, I don't think it would much. Who of the server regulars actually wants to battle the way we're speaking of? Let's see, D_A and myself, Pokedra, Jake, Aero, Nica...and that's it. I don't really identify with your community at all and I don't know if Pokedra does either, but otherwise it's not like those others are going to just disappear. You're going to lose a few people tops, and it's not like you can't just go onto both servers if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
As long as I've been involved in the battling community of PC (which is for quite a while), I've noticed a plethora of issues regarding the structure of this server. You say it'll only have "six users", which I'm not sure is a metaphor to illustrate your point or whether it's a direct contradiction to Jake's point on building an entire battle community from the ground up. Last time I checked, a community was more than just six users (at least the one you and the others are hoping for). Now let me paint why exactly why I'm not totally on board with this.
I was pointing out that we basically have to build it from the ground up since battlers' numbers have dwindled so much. ...Did you actually think my ideal community was six people? ._.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
I remember voicing my opposition in the Server Staff Chat. Jake argued over and over that no one would be shoved aside, no one would be isolated, that kind of stuff. But surprise! What do I see?

"It should be linked to in the S&M main forum so that new users and randoms at least know where our battlers are, while the current server can be linked to...somewhere else."

You're essentially kicking out the current server in place of the new one. Pray tell, do you have any answers as to what's going to happen to the current server afterwards, or do you plan to stop caring about it altogether? With all due respect, I find that absolutely ludicrous. Sure, our community isn't the best community out there, our community isn't a total representation of what should be S&M, I totally get that, but where in the honest heck do you guys expect to get your users from if this server is affiliated with PC? Our server? You do realize we have to host commdays and whatnot too, and have to advertise around PC just as much as you guys do, right? That's the kind of thing that would happen if this "new server" was affiliated with PC. If you ever expect to "build" a community, whether competitive or not, you're going to have to get the word out about it, somehow, instead of just sitting there, waiting for it to happen.
The main forum exists. People who show up in Battle Center because they actually care about battling will be linked to the Battle Server. That's how people always used to find out about the server and frequent it. I don't really see the problem there. Anyway, I don't really see the need to advertise around PC much. I don't have any interest in forcing battling on people. If they want to, they can, and if they don't, they shouldn't. While I plan on building the community, the first step is having one at all and currently we do not because the institution is not in place for it to function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Which....let me go back to the first point I was making. Why is it that I said that? Is it because our current community is unstable? No. Not really. Actually, I find this kind of ridiculous in a more amusing fashion, and I'm going to explain why right now:

I remember back about a few years back, when all of us tried to rely on Vrai to being back activity to CBC/BC/S&M. We were pretty much lost out of all options, and I remember the what, 10 or so "Get to work guys, and lets make S&M what it used to be!" threads that kept being made, all hoping for a community, all hoping for something to be made. We didn't care what kind of community it was, casual or competitive, as long as we had one and (C)BC flourished with activity.
Yeah, casual or competitive...battling. Casually playing competitive battling is a thing. That's what I did for three years. But for either casual or competitive, battling follows. Really, competitive battling (even if done casually) follows. That's what this forum is. So yeah, we didn't care, but there was sort of an expectation that people would, uh, battle. Which gets back to what Karpman said. I don't deny that y'all have a nice community but it's not an S&M community as you said yourself. If we just wanted any community we all would have run off to ROM hacking or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Well, you guys got what you asked for. It might not be activity on the forum, but it's activity on the server. And now that you guys aren't happy with the current community, you seek to establish another one. May I remind you how long it took to even get something remotely like this community to spring up? I'm pretty damn sure this community didn't grow overnight; some people came because of advertisements, some people came because Commday events, some people because our server had a lax environment like that.
"Activity." People chat. Usually about not a lot. Which is fine, that's a community that has found its own groove. Just don't pretend like it's activity the way we conceived it in S&M. We always used to complain about activity when we had an active chat. This is more nuanced than your descriptions suggests. So may I remind you that just because a community exists doesn't mean that it's anything like what a battling forum needs to actually engage in the activity of battling. I think I'm pretty aware of the hardship seeing as dealing with it was my job for three years. I get that you're playing up the "you got what you asked for and you're still not happy" angle but we didn't get what we asked for because the current server is NOT a battling community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
If this was a case of not affiliating it with PC, I couldn't care less about what you guys do with it, but then again, you would be in a hole as far as advertising it. Again, you'd have to get your users somehow, and if it isn't affiliated with PC, then you're quite stuck as far as where to get them from, because advertising it on other servers is pretty much out of the question, god knows how many spammers have tried to do that, already.
I'll discuss this issue later in the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
I remember when I told Jake that I had a gut feeling something bad was going to happen. And here it is, right in front of my face. I guess I made the right decision in trusting in that gut feeling for the aforementioned reasons, and also this:

"Also, hstaff having "another server watch on their shoulders" would be entirely up to them--every previous iteration of the battle server was entirely ignored by hstaff...even Luke and BeachBoy were rather absent."

What happened back then has very little to do with what happened now. We have a different h-staff, and they seem to care about the ongoings of the server. If they care about the ongoing of the new battle server, then so be it. If you're going to be advertising this new server, they might as well check out what it's about and watch over that too. Just my two cents and observations from what has happened so far.
You keep speaking for hstaff as if you know what they're thinking, lol. What I gather from what RazorLeaf and TB said is that they took interest because the server has become more universal and more a part of PC as a whole, something that definitely doesn't apply to competitive Pokemon. So I don't see it being a problem and I think it's silly to assume so until we actually know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
"I've been witnessing the disintegration of the battling community I helped to build and maintain for half a decade and I'm going to do what I can to reverse its impending demise"

By causing the demise of this server? You do realize that's an incredibly counterproductive way to go about with things, right? Of course, all of this is assuming you still have plans to affiliate with PC. Since the current server is already affiliated with PC, it'll carry a very messy state of affairs that I'm sure no one would want to get involved with.
You keep saying it would cause a mess. Um, how is battlers being a minority on what is supposedly their own server (no one even acts like this is true anymore it's gotten so bad) NOT a mess? And I would personally love that messy state of affairs as I have no evidence that suggests it would be messy to begin with besides a whopping two servers instead of one...? For two different communities? Isn't that organization, not a mess? Why can't there be two servers affiliated with PC? Is there some rule against this that was written in a tomb somewhere?

And how exactly is this going to create the demise of the current server? You can't just pass that assumption off as if it's true. Look at who frequents your server and tell me who exactly is going to bolt to go play competitively, because most people (including you) seem quite content with not battling at all and us breaking off will just spare you the "lol no one battles" talk, which right now is pretty well deserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
"I think we should be considering the best interests of the battling community (without throwing the thriving community on the current server under the bus, for sure)"

But that's pretty much...essentially what you're doing by creating a separate server affiliated with PC. Heck, you've even said this nifty paragraph yourself:

"And just for clarification (since this did "come out of" the pg13 thing even if I mostly used it as a pretense to whine about the current state of the server lol) we would indeed be more laid back about all that though I do want to mirror what Wolf said on the server which was basically that Mature Room is the Immature Room. If we're going to have a server that is more substance-driven, some of the more out there stuff I would expect to be supplanted by, well, substance, as sex tends to drive down the quality of the chat. I think I'm still scarred from my last year on PO."

Do you know what else has a mature room? Do you know what else has PG-13 rules? Oh right, the current server does. So you're essentially creating a carbon copy of the server, except you're isolating the casual battlers from the competitive ones. I don't see that as being too fair as we're supposed to be (as Jake has been saying in the chat) flexible community-wise, but each to their own, I suppose, if that's something you're really going for.
No, we're isolating the non-battlers from the battlers. Playing randbats or battling once a month isn't casual battling, it's just not battling, for all intents and purposes. So it's not really a carbon copy at all since the battling community at PC has always been culturally different than the rest of the forum and saying that it would be a copy because the current server has a mature room is laughable. The fact that there has to be a mature room at all is the kind of thing the illuminates the differences I speak of...seeing as we wouldn't have pg13 rules except disallowing things like the hentai channel which is more like rated x rules lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
Ultimately, my opinion has come to this: If you guys decide for this server not to affiliate with PC, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, since apparently it's otherwise, it's causing a whole mess of issues that honestly shouldn't happen in the first place. You say yourself that it's not meant to throw the current server under the bus, but when you're tossing it aside just to say "well.. it can go..somewhere" it really implies otherwise.

Now, are we an excellent representation of what S&M should be? Not really, and I'll fully agree with you on that on every scale. However, we are a community, and I don't think anything should happen to at least tear that apart, which is what creating a new battle server would do.
If the server being advertised elsewhere is throwing it under the bus then I need to revise my idiomatic dictionary. Also, I'm just going to point out that this server has effectively thrown the battling community under the bus and no one has really cared. I have no intention of destroying your community in return--hypocrisy aint cool yo. But um, this server was created to cater to the battling community. So it's screwing the battling community. And your response is "but it's a community!" Yeah, but it's a community operating under a false pretense...except now it only barely pretends so we might as well just make it official, right?

Also, I'll answer to the bolding part when you explain why that's actually the case because I honestly have no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight Sky View Post
In case that wasn't clear, I'll just sum it up here:
  • The new battle server is created. You and whoever else regulars that chat is going to frequent it, and I assume is going to immediately start building it from the ground up.
  • In the process of building it from the ground up, as I mentioned, you're going to have to start somewhere. This means getting the word out on PC (since the server would be supported by PC). Now, with the current server already advertising, it would make for a very confused mess because the users won't know exactly which chat to frequent.
  • This also goes upon my previous post of Steve disagreeing with allowing the current server to replace the IRC. Three chats is honestly way too much, you're going to have to get rid of one because these three chats all serve the same purpose, except two of them are for battling, and one of them is "more serious" about it. That's really all the differences that I can see.
  • With that being said, it'll just have to be decided whether to keep the current server to demolish in favor of the new one. Since all I see changing is you becoming auth and the server being more "serious" and kicking out causal batters (which I oppose), I really do not think it's worth it.
  • If you're really that determined to bring about such interest within competitive, then I just highly suggest you do it with the current server. I don't blame you if you just lost all hope or whatever, heck I don't battle myself. But I would if I had motivation, I would if there was something to make me battle again, but I also want a COMMUNITY for casual chat. I think it's going to get stale if all the topic is going to be about is "oh x pokemon is x weak" all the time. I like to mix it up between competitive talk and casual talk. Though that's just me, personally.

I really hope you'll see where I'm coming from when I bring all of these issues up. Of course, this is all assuming it'll be in direct affiliation with PC as you've stated.
@second bullet: Advertise one as a chatroom and one as a server for casual and competitive players of competitive Pokemon. Even though I don't see the point in advertising a battle server across PC when everyone knows S&M exists...people who are interested would have joined by now, don't you think? (And for all the new users that have come to the current server, it's funny how noncommittal everything is about battling...even though it's supposedly a battling server...)

@third bullet: Please stop pretending like the current server is for battling. That ship has sailed.

@fourth: Why can't they just coexist, again?

@fifth: Do we have to try the same strategy that hasn't ever worked? "I'm not motivated." Maybe that means you're just not that interested then? Like, that's fine, you don't have to like battling lol, but pretending like the demotivated will suddenly reverse themselves...yeah, I'm not really into that. Basically what Jake said earlier. At this point, it's a glorified social IRC, which again is fine, but the actual battlers shouldn't have the burden of existing within it as a freaking minority in "their own" (lol) community. The fact that no one even pretends anymore that this is an S&M community is probably a sign that the actual S&M community have its own community gathering space.


Just one last thought...

It seems like this whole mini discussion is dominated by "well what about the current server!" Okay, but what about the battlers? You know, the people this forum caters to? This arrangement really isn't doing the battling community any favors no matter how you slice it and ultimately it is the responsibility of the Battle Server to server battlers first and foremost and while I think that can happen while maintaining the current server community, my priority is the battlers who are being forgotten, who have to go to Smogon to find a match, who can't battle in their own community because it doesn't exist. That's my priority.
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  #157    
Old May 30th, 2013, 03:43 PM
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I wasn't particularly interested in arguing about this more, but alas, here are my problems with the idea.

I don't like the idea of splitting up our small community. By making another server, one of them will eventually crumple from inactivity and general lack of usage. Here's the thing: we don't have a massive amount of regulars to keep the old server afloat, and once regulars like Elf and Aero leave for the new server, the older one will eventually die. I know this because we still have issues retaining consistent activity on the current server. We don't have this overflowing bucket full of non-battlers that will keep a second server running. We might as well promote battling to our existing community, and possibly get some more battling going on.

I think the problem stems from the fact that the battle server is getting more active. More people are coming to the server to chat, and off-topic discussion tends to come up more often (like it was in the past). With more people using the chat, it becomes more difficult to change the topic when others are already discussing something else. The natural decision is to make another channel for talk about competitive Pokemon, or make the lobby more focused around it and put off-topic chat in a different channel. However, I know that you (Anti) want to breakaway from this treacherous community that has become too "PC-like," has too many filthy casuals like Lala, yada yada yada. But guess what, when the old server eventually dies, they're going to come over to the new server. Then, you end up in the same situation we are in now. The community will have people that want stick around with their friends, that's only natural. What are you going to do when a good portion of community consists of those type of people and eventually saturates this new "battling" community with non-battlers? Hope that this focus on battling (and strict moderation to enforce that) will eventually drive them out?
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  #158    
Old May 30th, 2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti View Post
Because the current server is not my concern. How about you provide an argument for why it's fair to the battling community to have to go to a server where the battlers are the minority. I think that's much more compelling seeing as the purpose of the server is supposed to serve the S&M community.
All you keep saying is "battling community this, battling community that", what I'm saying is that we are a COMMUNITY of people who are both battlers and non-batters. Are battlers the minority? Sadly yes, but who's fault is it for not actually emphasizing on battling on the server in the first place? It's kind of strange how this hasn't been an issue for the past few months that the server has been up and now all of a sudden people are raising pitchforkes about it? I personally think that's kinda BS, but whatever.

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Anyway, I don't think it would much. Who of the server regulars actually wants to battle the way we're speaking of? Let's see, D_A and myself, Pokedra, Jake, Aero, Nica...and that's it. I don't really identify with your community at all and I don't know if Pokedra does either, but otherwise it's not like those others are going to just disappear. You're going to lose a few people tops, and it's not like you can't just go onto both servers if you want.
You made a fair enough point here. There are people that tend to blend with the community, and those that don't. It would be unfair for me as a whole to tell you to "get used to it" and try to blend in anyway. So whatever. Your point has been made here.



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I was pointing out that we basically have to build it from the ground up since battlers' numbers have dwindled so much. ...Did you actually think my ideal community was six people? ._.
No.


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The main forum exists. People who show up in Battle Center because they actually care about battling will be linked to the Battle Server. That's how people always used to find out about the server and frequent it. I don't really see the problem there. Anyway, I don't really see the need to advertise around PC much. I don't have any interest in forcing battling on people. If they want to, they can, and if they don't, they shouldn't. While I plan on building the community, the first step is having one at all and currently we do not because the institution is not in place for it to function.
Okay, it will be linked to the battle Center. Care to explain where the current server is going to be linked? Or are you going to stick with this:

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Because the current server is not my concern.
And just not care about whatever else happens to it?

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Yeah, casual or competitive...battling. Casually playing competitive battling is a thing. That's what I did for three years. But for either casual or competitive, battling follows. Really, competitive battling (even if done casually) follows. That's what this forum is. So yeah, we didn't care, but there was sort of an expectation that people would, uh, battle. Which gets back to what Karpman said. I don't deny that y'all have a nice community but it's not an S&M community as you said yourself. If we just wanted any community we all would have run off to ROM hacking or something.

Fair enough, you've made your point here.

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"Activity." People chat. Usually about not a lot. Which is fine, that's a community that has found its own groove. Just don't pretend like it's activity the way we conceived it in S&M. We always used to complain about activity when we had an active chat. This is more nuanced than your descriptions suggests. So may I remind you that just because a community exists doesn't mean that it's anything like what a battling forum needs to actually engage in the activity of battling. I think I'm pretty aware of the hardship seeing as dealing with it was my job for three years. I get that you're playing up the "you got what you asked for and you're still not happy" angle but we didn't get what we asked for because the current server is NOT a battling community.
And may I also remind you that if it wasn't for this current community, that we'd still be in our 50th "What should CBC do?" thread, complaining about activity and what to do to establish one until hell freezes over and i see posts like this basically disregarding the welfare of the server, it's quite a sad thing, really.


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You keep speaking for hstaff as if you know what they're thinking, lol. What I gather from what RazorLeaf and TB said is that they took interest because the server has become more universal and more a part of PC as a whole, something that definitely doesn't apply to competitive Pokemon. So I don't see it being a problem and I think it's silly to assume so until we actually know that.
Don't take my post out of context. I said that they can give their opinion and they can speak for themselves. The argument that I gave was based on my own observations. I can be right, I can be wrong, but please don't assume things like that.


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You keep saying it would cause a mess. Um, how is battlers being a minority on what is supposedly their own server (no one even acts like this is true anymore it's gotten so bad) NOT a mess? And I would personally love that messy state of affairs as I have no evidence that suggests it would be messy to begin with besides a whopping two servers instead of one...? For two different communities? Isn't that organization, not a mess? Why can't there be two servers affiliated with PC? Is there some rule against this that was written in a tomb somewhere?
And you have no evidence to suggest it wouldn't be?? For one, the fact that you're ignoring the IRC completely (cause you know, people still go there, despite it being dead 24/7!), and having two extra servers besides that doesn't help the state of affairs becuase all THREE of them would be "official". Seeing as we perhaps want to incorporate this server into Get Together events, and seeing as this new "server" would be linked with BC, care to explain exactly how the heck you'll clear up the confusion of having three different chats?


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And how exactly is this going to create the demise of the current server? You can't just pass that assumption off as if it's true. Look at who frequents your server and tell me who exactly is going to bolt to go play competitively, because most people (including you) seem quite content with not battling at all and us breaking off will just spare you the "lol no one battles" talk, which right now is pretty well deserved.
Separate server? Highly oppose with it. Separate Channel? Have all the competitive fun you want, I don't care. I just do not see the point in making a server when a channel can accomplish the same thing without creating a whole MESS of THREE official chats.

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No, we're isolating the non-battlers from the battlers. Playing randbats or battling once a month isn't casual battling, it's just not battling, for all intents and purposes. So it's not really a carbon copy at all since the battling community at PC has always been culturally different than the rest of the forum and saying that it would be a copy because the current server has a mature room is laughable. The fact that there has to be a mature room at all is the kind of thing the illuminates the differences I speak of...seeing as we wouldn't have pg13 rules except disallowing things like the hentai channel which is more like rated x rules lol.
Pretty much what I said in my last bit of my post, but oh well.

Also, it's a carbon copy because it's essentially our server except people battle. That's the only difference, lol, really.


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If the server being advertised elsewhere is throwing it under the bus then I need to revise my idiomatic dictionary. Also, I'm just going to point out that this server has effectively thrown the battling community under the bus and no one has really cared. I have no intention of destroying your community in return--hypocrisy aint cool yo. But um, this server was created to cater to the battling community. So it's screwing the battling community. And your response is "but it's a community!" Yeah, but it's a community operating under a false pretense...except now it only barely pretends so we might as well just make it official, right?
We have a server where people CAN battle. I would like to introduce you to the PC Battle server. Whilst not everyone BATTLES, that's not exactly their fault because there's nothing motivating them TO battle.

...I guess that's where the competitive battlers fall in? Instead of creating another server entirely (which wouldn't really help), you would create a different channel which would be significantly easier on both the new people and the current chatters alike who won't have to bookmark two different ulrs (remember, a lot of people are naturally lazy!) to go to two different channels that serve the exact same purpose: battling.

Regardless of what you yourself may think is the main difference between them, that's how new users would see it.


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@second bullet: Advertise one as a chatroom and one as a server for casual and competitive players of competitive Pokemon. Even though I don't see the point in advertising a battle server across PC when everyone knows S&M exists...people who are interested would have joined by now, don't you think? (And for all the new users that have come to the current server, it's funny how noncommittal everything is about battling...even though it's supposedly a battling server...)
Except there's already a battle server: it's the one you go to currently. Regardless of how OFTEN the userbase actually battles, it is still under all technicalities, a battle server. A separate battle server just would seem completely redundant considering there's nothing different about the two, except, you know, one is where people battle and the other official one is where peope don't.

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@third bullet: Please stop pretending like the current server is for battling. That ship has sailed.
Please stop misinterpreting my post. That ship is irrelevant.


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@fourth: Why can't they just coexist, again?
Read my entire post again along with this one .-.


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@fifth: Do we have to try the same strategy that hasn't ever worked? "I'm not motivated." Maybe that means you're just not that interested then? Like, that's fine, you don't have to like battling lol, but pretending like the demotivated will suddenly reverse themselves...yeah, I'm not really into that. Basically what Jake said earlier. At this point, it's a glorified social IRC, which again is fine, but the actual battlers shouldn't have the burden of existing within it as a freaking minority in "their own" (lol) community. The fact that no one even pretends anymore that this is an S&M community is probably a sign that the actual S&M community have its own community gathering space.
Fair enough, as long as it's in a different channel.

Just one last thought...

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It seems like this whole mini discussion is dominated by "well what about the current server!" Okay, but what about the battlers? You know, the people this forum caters to? This arrangement really isn't doing the battling community any favors no matter how you slice it and ultimately it is the responsibility of the Battle Server to server battlers first and foremost and while I think that can happen while maintaining the current server community, my priority is the battlers who are being forgotten, who have to go to Smogon to find a match, who can't battle in their own community because it doesn't exist. That's my priority.
As long as it's in a different channel, I don't really care. .-.

I don't really feel motivated to type any more than this because it's 9 AM, I just woke up from a nap and this topic has gone on long enough lmfao.
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Old May 30th, 2013, 05:25 PM
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Just wanna say that I support the second server being unaffliated with PC purely because if the first one is the official chat room it makes me think of Ever Grabde City, and their official chat room only being PO. Smogon can get away with this but irc is hugely integrated and I don't think PC should base the entire foundations of an offsite chat being two battle servers. As for the second server I can easily populate it as I know smogon people who would likely use it to it's advantage without heading into that awkward zone of two official servers. Hard to explain but yeah.
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Old May 30th, 2013, 06:53 PM
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(Unrelated to the current topic.) Server channels with spaces in them are all broken. As a result, "Mature Room" doesn't function properly anymore. I have replaced it with "RatedArrgh" because I like the name more!
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Old May 30th, 2013, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
I don't like the idea of splitting up our small community. By making another server, one of them will eventually crumple from inactivity and general lack of usage. Here's the thing: we don't have a massive amount of regulars to keep the old server afloat, and once regulars like Elf and Aero leave for the new server, the older one will eventually die. I know this because we still have issues retaining consistent activity on the current server. We don't have this overflowing bucket full of non-battlers that will keep a second server running. We might as well promote battling to our existing community, and possibly get some more battling going on.
I've tried promoting battling to the community. If you recall, I started a UU tournament with the sole purpose of making people interested in a new metagame and learning it. For a select few, this actually worked! But if you noticed, only people who were already interested in battling from the get-go were the ones who stuck with it (I don't know Fritz that well in terms of how much battling is done, but Fritz is an odd one out in this case, because he stuck with UU). I encouraged the idea of not stealing teams and creating your own and gave a week in order for people to practice with their team on the smogon ladder / work out kinks. You know what actually happened within that week? People did nothing, ignored the tournament, and when it was over that's when people started making their teams. You can't get a community to truly enjoy battling if that's not the reason they're here in the first place. We should know that from years and years of not total flops, but somewhat failures of experiments to improve activity.

If we have a server specifically for competitive battling and discussion, the people who go on there might, I don't know, actually want to learn / improve on competitive battling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wofl
I think the problem stems from the fact that the battle server is getting more active. More people are coming to the server to chat, and off-topic discussion tends to come up more often (like it was in the past). With more people using the chat, it becomes more difficult to change the topic when others are already discussing something else. The natural decision is to make another channel for talk about competitive Pokemon, or make the lobby more focused around it and put off-topic chat in a different channel. However, I know that you (Anti) want to breakaway from this treacherous community that has become too "PC-like," has too many filthy casuals like Lala, yada yada yada. But guess what, when the old server eventually dies, they're going to come over to the new server. Then, you end up in the same situation we are in now. The community will have people that want stick around with their friends, that's only natural. What are you going to do when a good portion of community consists of those type of people and eventually saturates this new "battling" community with non-battlers? Hope that this focus on battling (and strict moderation to enforce that) will eventually drive them out?
This doesn't make much sense to me honestly. You're claiming that the current server is going to die if the second one is made. How do you know this? Clearly very few people in the current server are interested in actually competitive battling save a dozen of those who come on regularly, most of which would frequent both servers given the opportunity. I, personally, would still visit the current server if a new competitive one is made. Will I prefer the new server? Of course, that's what I want in a server in the first place and why I came back (XY Competitive Discussion / Help once it comes out / people I know and want to battle with). Does the preference mean I won't come onto the current server? No. I don't see why it should. And this is coming from me, probably one of the people becoming most hated by the server staff because of my complaints about how...awful the chats become. There isn't anything wrong with off-topic discussions, but when I'm, say, having trouble working on a team and I ask for help in the chat and I get very blunt / no reasoning behind it / stupid joke answers because "nobody cares, we're discussing username colors", I just feel like the meaning of the server is pretty much lost.

This is why I support another server and whatever Anti deems necessary. Honestly, Anti is probably the most level-headed and logical thinking person I know on the internet and I support anything he proposes.

Also Derk, you claiming that the "lack of battling hasn't been an issue before" pains my soul. Do you not recall why I left PC in 2011?
Nvm, you said last couple of months. It was an issue. My UU tournament took a month for 12 battles to take place. That's a massive problem if you ask me and I made it clear that I felt that it was ridiculous. Not to mention the sheer lack of interest in the tournament as a whole from people I would have expected to sign up who didn't and those who were also in the tournament.

EDIT: Side-note. I feel like the only legitimate argument against getting a new server is that it could result in lowered activity in both servers. And like I said, if the competitive battlers are in such a minority as Derk claims they are, if all of them were to leave, would it really affect anything? I'm going to list some of the members who are on decent amounts and battle and if I forget anyone, let me know.
- Me
- Jake
- Fritz
- Nica
- Dark Azelf
- Anti
- Pokedra

....yeah....

Pretty sure at least Me, Nica and Fritz would still visit the regular server if the second one were made. I can't speak for the other 4.
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Old May 30th, 2013, 07:39 PM
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Uhhhh I'll try to keep this short.

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Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
I wasn't particularly interested in arguing about this more, but alas, here are my problems with the idea.

I don't like the idea of splitting up our small community. By making another server, one of them will eventually crumple from inactivity and general lack of usage. Here's the thing: we don't have a massive amount of regulars to keep the old server afloat, and once regulars like Elf and Aero leave for the new server, the older one will eventually die. I know this because we still have issues retaining consistent activity on the current server. We don't have this overflowing bucket full of non-battlers that will keep a second server running. We might as well promote battling to our existing community, and possibly get some more battling going on.
Not gonna disagree with the main point you're making here of impracticality--fair enough, you know the server better than I do--but I do want to point out that the course of action you mention in that last sentence is probably hopeless. Even the wording is telling: "we might as well" and "possibly" don't exactly inspire confidence...

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Originally Posted by Wolflare View Post
I think the problem stems from the fact that the battle server is getting more active. More people are coming to the server to chat, and off-topic discussion tends to come up more often (like it was in the past). With more people using the chat, it becomes more difficult to change the topic when others are already discussing something else. The natural decision is to make another channel for talk about competitive Pokemon, or make the lobby more focused around it and put off-topic chat in a different channel. However, I know that you (Anti) want to breakaway from this treacherous community that has become too "PC-like," has too many filthy casuals like Lala, yada yada yada. But guess what, when the old server eventually dies, they're going to come over to the new server. Then, you end up in the same situation we are in now. The community will have people that want stick around with their friends, that's only natural. What are you going to do when a good portion of community consists of those type of people and eventually saturates this new "battling" community with non-battlers? Hope that this focus on battling (and strict moderation to enforce that) will eventually drive them out?
I think y'all are sort of misunderstanding the hypothetical nature of the new server. Strictly moderated? I don't think so. I feel like the chat sort of took care of itself when the server was in fact a battle server in terms of the substance. Since I don't really think the server would eventually die without its minority element, I'm very skeptical of what you're saying being some inevitability but point taken anyway.

You can mock my admittedly way over-the-top rhetoric but it's pretty hard to deny that S&M/CBC/BC sort of got the shaft once the server became increasingly dominated by non-battlers. It's like the forum might as well not exist. I feel like it's not unreasonable to be alarmed by this.

(If all else fails then yes a channel is better than nothing, I feel like having the offtopic being the channel is in denial of reality which breaks my heart but facts are facts--most don't battle.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by teamDerk
Also, it's a carbon copy because it's essentially our server except people battle. That's the only difference, lol, really.
...That's sort of an enormous difference. I cherry-picked this because I don't think either of us want to go back and forth forever but this encapsulated my response to your post well enough. For Battle Center's server (getting tired of bolding battle) I would think that's sort of a big deal...

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Originally Posted by Forever View Post
Just wanna say that I support the second server being unaffliated with PC purely because if the first one is the official chat room it makes me think of Ever Grabde City, and their official chat room only being PO. Smogon can get away with this but irc is hugely integrated and I don't think PC should base the entire foundations of an offsite chat being two battle servers. As for the second server I can easily populate it as I know smogon people who would likely use it to it's advantage without heading into that awkward zone of two official servers. Hard to explain but yeah.
This makes PC affiliation much less necessary...assuming it's reliable. I like it regardless though if only because while I don't necessarily agree I think that the concerns about two official servers are legitimate and two of the people who I know like the idea of a second server have been moe on the unofficial side so fair enough, I think that's what we should do then.

edit: just to speak to aero's edit i probably wouldn't come on except dip though i suspect my loss is probably mutually positive
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  #163    
Old May 30th, 2013, 09:43 PM
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I am so over talking about this. The debating isn't really going anywhere as everyone is pretty much set in stone, so this is pretty much all I have left to say:
  • I wouldn't leave the current server if this ever comes to fruition.
  • Instead of jumping to the more work-intensive and more radical approach of creating a new server (not that it's radical, but whatever), why not just TRY making a new channel on the current server and see how it works out? If what we're aiming for can't be accomplished there, hey, no harm no foul. Then we know at least. If it works we saved ourselves a lot of work.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 05:30 AM
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None of you are giving me a solution to the problem I brought up. If the old server dies and the non-battlers from there start frequenting the new server, how are you going to retain this battling community without it being thrown out of balance? All that you folks are doing is trying to get away from the non-battlers and create a community for battlers. That is pushing them aside, and hoping they don't come over to your group. You are under the assumption that the old server will remain intact, but I don't think it will. I understand this is all conjecture, but it's very likely to happen and you want to plan out what to do if it occurs. If this happens, the new server will end up in the same position as we are now, and everything that comes from this will be largely unproductive (aside from making some members more interested in battling). By making a new server, you are just trying to avoid the problem without fixing it. Naturally, as a community grows, it will also gain more non-battlers in the process. The chat will begin to degrade over time (many online communities have this problem) and off-topic discussion will become more prevalent. This gives you two options: 1) strictly moderate it to ensure competitive Pokemon remains as a major interest in the community and attempt to keep off-topic discussion at a minimum, or 2) make another place specifically for competitive Pokemon. The latter option is certainly better for our community, but making another "battle" server that allows off-topic discussion will end up competing with the old server. My solution to this issue is to make a separate channel for reasons stated before. It will co-exist alongside the current community without completely splitting it up, and will give us a chance to have a chat that is strictly focused on competitive Pokemon without having to worry about off-topic discussion taking the priority (because it's in the main lobby).
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Old May 31st, 2013, 09:54 AM
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Any solution would be just as hypothetical as the problem you present, but mine would probably be a channel for non-battlers, basically, and if the battlers want to go there then they can. I say this though still sort of rejecting the idea that the current server is going to die--who exactly is going to leave anyway?--but that's my answer.

Brief thing about the channel: it's not really about having a strictly topical chat (I feel like this is a misconception as that's an unrealistic and undesirable thing for everyone I think) but rather a community defining itself and its culture and establishing its own independent space. I feel like a server is waaaay better suited for that than a channel but if that's the best we're going to do at the moment then I think it would be pretty foolish to reject it. I'll work on an (unaffiliated) server in the meantime assuming it's still okay with you? I have no idea if that's a fair assumption anymore though. And if it does in fact work in actually giving a home to the battling community again then wonderful. But right now it seems like Jake is right and at some point we just have to do something sooo yeah.
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  #166    
Old May 31st, 2013, 05:53 PM
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We have decided to make a channel called "competitive"! It's basically a channel for talk about competitive Pokemon, and that's all you really need to know. Oh, and it's not strictly related to competitive Pokemon, so you won't be banned for talking about something else or anything severe like that.
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  #167    
Old June 1st, 2013, 09:52 AM
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I haven't read all these posts but it seems pretty bad that we have to make a seperate server for a competitive subforum so that people can actually play competitive mons on it. I honestly feel like the non-battler people are better off making a social irl channel to move their community too, but whatever works I guess.
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Old June 1st, 2013, 02:24 PM
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Personally, I just think a forum is more effective at establishing an active community from the start. Sure, a chatroom helps people in a community develop bonds with each other, and makes the community feel much more like a group of friends than a forum could accomplish. But there's a lot of effort involved into keeping a chatroom active and ensuring that people will actually stick around and use it. If it's dead when a new user comes, they are certainly going to leave and rarely come back later. Heck, it's hard enough getting new users to stick around even when the battle server is active almost 24/7. It's just so difficult launching a community with a small amount of people using a chatroom, with the obvious flaw being the fact that it's real-time. You have to have people on at the same time to use the chatroom, or it's just useless. With so few users involved, times when there are more than two people on willing to chat are so sparse. This is even more compounded by the fact that this new server would be focused around one particular (and somewhat limited) subject, unlike the current battle server. I would rather use the forum somehow, and gather a solid group of people dedicated to actually using it, y'know? Then attempt to make an active "battle" server or channel once the time is right.
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 04:42 PM
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Is the server down? I can't seem to access it. Smogon's PS server is up though so it's not a Showdown! problem; I figured I should ask here.
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 06:02 PM
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THE SERVER IS UP

...kinda. It might work for people, might not work. At least try it out and see what happens? I heard that wolf had to login to smogon's main server first before going on pc's server, so....might want to try that guys. :x

Of course, at least I can get in. u__u; So yeah, just wanted to let you guys know!
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  #171    
Old June 2nd, 2013, 06:47 PM
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I'd like to say that the Server's Ladder has been RESET. So that means that each and everyone in the server at any time can re-start laddering up. Note that you must be registered in order to protect and reserve your ranking. And to get out of being (Provisional) you just have to keep having rated battles on the selected ladder (tier), then you will be out of being (Provisional). That is all I'd like to say to everyone, enjoy laddering again and have fun!




Side note: The ladder reset may have something to do with the server being down.
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Old June 2nd, 2013, 09:08 PM
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I wonder is it just me, but when I'm going to PC Battle Server, I've got this message:

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DNS Resolution Error

You've requested a page on a website (pokecommunity.psim.us) that is on the CloudFlare network. Unfortunately, CloudFlare is currently unable to resolve your requested domain (pokecommunity.psim.us).
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  #173    
Old June 2nd, 2013, 09:54 PM
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Zorua
Adventurous One.
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Gender: Female
Nature: Gentle
The server might work for some people, might not work for others. x_x I would think for most people it worked since the usual regulars are on but....I guess not entirely.
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  #174    
Old June 3rd, 2013, 09:28 AM
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Melody
Singing Nature's Melody
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Cuddling those close to me
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Nature: Gentle
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The server is: DOWN

Seems like smogon is still getting DDoSed and the login server for Pokemon Showdown is offline, so you may not be able to connect even thought the client is in fact loading fine.
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"It loves to bask in the sunlight. It uses the leaf on its head to seek out warm places."
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  #175    
Old June 3rd, 2013, 11:05 AM
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Miss Fortune
Fortune doesn't favor fools!
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: On the Rift
Age: 20
Gender: Female
Nature: Naughty
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Server is back up and should be working properly for everyone soon.
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