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  #3951    
Old June 27th, 2013 (05:49 PM).
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I am so happy that DOMA has been shot down by the Supreme Court. The victory is small, but I'll take it and hope for more victories to come.
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  #3952    
Old June 27th, 2013 (06:29 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Insomniac:
I think it's weird that I'm gay myself but I don't really.. I don't feel affected by this at all. When I heard about it I kind of shrugged it off like it was no big deal.

I know it IS in fact a huge deal though and I'm glad it's finally legal
I'm not gay but I totally feel you. Didn't we all know it was gonna happen anyways? I think when you are spoiled by inevitability nothing is exciting anymore.
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  #3953    
Old June 27th, 2013 (06:42 PM).
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I'm sorry to come butting in here, but I need to talk about some problems I've been having.

I wanted to explain to everyone that I had no problem with the repeal of DOMA, and why I wanted it to be that way, even though my beliefs seem to contradict those others with my religion.

But I've been getting nothing but hate and "he's right to blindly hate religious people you know" and no understanding.

What am I doing wrong? I can't bear to read some of these member's hateful posts, yet I power through to try to understand their view, and I reply to let them know that I do not support Prop 8, etc either. Yet some of these people come back and accuse me of being hateful…

I'm sorry. But is this a gay people thing, to hate on religious people blindly? Because if that's how it is, I then revoke my support of gay marriage. If you won't treat everyone with equality, then you don't deserve equality.
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  #3954    
Old June 27th, 2013 (06:46 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
I'm sorry to come butting in here, but I need to talk about some problems I've been having.

I wanted to explain to everyone that I had no problem with the repeal of DOMA, and why I wanted it to be that way, even though my beliefs seem to contradict those others with my religion.

But I've been getting nothing but hate and "he's right to blindly hate religious people you know" and no understanding.

What am I doing wrong? I can't bear to read some of these member's hateful posts, yet I power through to try to understand their view, and I reply to let them know that I do not support Prop 8, etc either. Yet some of these people come back and accuse me of being hateful…

I'm sorry. But is this a gay people thing, to hate on religious people blindly? Because if that's how it is, I then revoke my support of gay marriage. If you won't treat everyone with equality, then you don't deserve equality.
Is it a religious people thing to use the bible as an excuse to bash and harass many of us for centuries? I understand that there are other Christian sects that have adapted themselves to be gay friendly, but many of Christian sects have condemned us.
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  #3955    
Old June 27th, 2013 (06:51 PM).
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Quote originally posted by First Snow:
Is it a religious people thing to use the bible as an excuse to bash and harass many of us for centuries? I understand that there are other Christian sects that have adapted themselves to be gay friendly, but many of Christian sects have condemned us.
This is what I am talking about.

Who cares about that? Who needs to know? The important thing is to understand that those people are wrong, and those people are to be ignored.
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  #3956    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:03 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
This is what I am talking about.

Who cares about that? Who needs to know? The important thing is to understand that those people are wrong, and those people are to be ignored.
The problem with that it is nearly impossible to ignore. We've face damnation, scorn, hate, and injustice for centuries and these stem from interpretations from the bible. We aren't saying that Jesus Christ condemned gays, however; many translations/interpretations/publications of his words and beliefs have and they have made a lasting impression in our society.

Do you expect us to drop our distaste with the bible? Especially when it has been used for decades now to support political and legal decisions in matters that aren't about gay rights as well? Did you know, that the bible has been cited as an excuse for gay bashing? For torment? For violence? It's not easy for us to drop everything we went through to just forgive the a book is a medium for hate.
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  #3957    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:08 PM).
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Quote originally posted by First Snow:
The problem with that it is nearly impossible to ignore. We've face damnation, scorn, hate, and injustice for centuries and these stem from interpretations from the bible. We aren't saying that Jesus Christ condemned gays, however; many translations/interpretations/publications of his words and beliefs have and they have made a lasting impression in our society.

Do you expect us to drop our distaste with the bible? Especially when it has been used for decades now to support political and legal decisions in matters that aren't about gay rights as well? Did you know, that the bible has been cited as an excuse for gay bashing? For torment? For violence? It's not easy for us to drop everything we went through to just forgive the a book is a medium for hate.
But distaste doesn't mean free reign of ignorance.

I don't find your guys' posts harassing me enjoyable to read, but I still try to reply logically and foster some discussion. I even revise my arguments and counterarguments so that they reflect my understanding of your position better, often four or five times.

But guess what? I'm not suddenly considering your posts to be complimentary of me. They still are incredibly rude imo, but I still replied and thought about my position and why it might be wrong and how your position may be right.

Distaste≠ignorance.
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  #3958    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:16 PM). Edited June 27th, 2013 by Subsonic.
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
But distaste doesn't mean free reign of ignorance.

I don't find your guys' posts harassing me enjoyable to read, but I still try to reply logically and foster some discussion. I even revise my arguments and counterarguments so that they reflect my understanding of your position better, often four or five times.

But guess what? I'm not suddenly considering your posts to be complimentary of me. They still are incredibly rude imo, but I still replied and thought about my position and why it might be wrong and how your position may be right.

Distaste≠ignorance.
I'm sorry that you don't like how I break down your posts. As you can tell, I have zero respect for the bible. Just because I don't support the bible and its teachings, doesn't mean I don't support people who align themselves with it. As long as they don't use it as an excuse to hate and bash others then I am fine.

You think I was harassing you? Sure, the tone may have been rude, but I wasn't harassing you. I was stating the facts. Now I am going to harass you a bit. Do you think that you have the right to talk to us about ignorance? After all the scorn and hate we've been through? Do you really think we are the only ones at fault? Because it seems like that's the way you think. Before you butt your head in on the matter of how ALL gay people are ignorant, you should brush up on your history and maybe watch or read the news.

I find it really sad, that your ignorance has ignited anger from me. You have made the the angriest I have ever been on someone on the internet. And the thought alone depresses me.
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  #3959    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:28 PM).
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Whoa, wait, wow, what's going on? Where did all this come from? *confused* I feel like I missed something pretty major here, haha...
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  #3960    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:32 PM).
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Quote originally posted by Inkblots:
Whoa, wait, wow, what's going on? Where did all this come from? *confused* I feel like I missed something pretty major here, haha...
It's okay. Just rage fest.
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  #3961    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:45 PM).
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Quote originally posted by First Snow:
You think I was harassing you? Sure, the tone may have been rude, but I wasn't harassing you. I was stating the facts. Now I am going to harass you a bit. Do you think that you have the right to talk to us about ignorance? After all the scorn and hate we've been through? Do you really think we are the only ones at fault? Because it seems like that's the way you think. Before you butt your head in on the matter of how ALL gay people are ignorant, you should brush up on your history and maybe watch or read the news.
I would think otherwise.

What have I been saying? I feel like I have been disrespected for trying to respect you. I say that I try to understand all of you. My expectations were not met, and they were simple. Mutual understanding. It seems like you want none of that, and thus I will have none of your "equality" bs if that's how we're rolling.

I have the right to talk about ignorance.

Just because of Hitler, do Germans not have the right to speak out against genocide?

Just because of John Wayne Gacy, do Iowans not have the right to speak out against murders?

No. They do have the right, the same rights as everyone else.

And just because of the Westboro Baptist Church and such, do Christians not have the right to speak out against ignorance?

And did I say all you gay people are bigots? And did I say that all gay people are ignorant? I didn't. I only said that, in my experience, I have seen many people, mostly gay people, reject my attempts to explain to them that Christians are not allowed to discriminate.

No. I simply said that whenever I have tried in the past. Maybe there will be one or more in the future that do accept my views, and I am sure that there is one. Maybe you can become the first one. Maybe it's somebody else. But I am sure there is at least one. Your hate on me is Sodom and Gomorrah, and there will be somebody (or multiple somebodies) that is Lot and his family.

I am beginning to think you are simply trying to find excuses to take out your prejudice on Christians. Read through and think it through. Maybe you are the prejudiced one. Maybe you discriminate against people. But maybe you aren't. But keep in mind, you could be. Never forget that possibility.

All human beings are capable of prejudice. Just because you are gay doesn't exempt you from that rule. In fact, because you're fighting for your equality at this moment, you are more subscribed to this rule than the average person.
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  #3962    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:47 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
This is what I am talking about.

Who cares about that? Who needs to know? The important thing is to understand that those people are wrong, and those people are to be ignored.
No way. When something so horribly wrong is happening, the worst possible thing you can do is ignore it. If you ignore it, it will continue to happen. What we should be doing (and have been) is shedding as much light on just how evil it is. Keep it fully out in the open, talk about it as much as possible, and make sure people understand just how wrong it is and why.

Had we just ignored injustices like that we'd still have slavery, and women wouldn't be able to vote, and Gays wouldn't be able to marry. (Well, still working on that last one.)
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  #3963    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:53 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
I would think otherwise.

What have I been saying? I feel like I have been disrespected for trying to respect you. I say that I try to understand all of you. My expectations were not met, and they were simple. Mutual understanding. It seems like you want none of that, and thus I will have none of your "equality" bs if that's how we're rolling.

I have the right to talk about ignorance.

Just because of Hitler, do Germans not have the right to speak out against genocide?

Just because of John Wayne Gacy, do Iowans not have the right to speak out against murders?

No. They do have the right, the same rights as everyone else.

And just because of the Westboro Baptist Church and such, do Christians not have the right to speak out against ignorance?

And did I say all you gay people are bigots? And did I say that all gay people are ignorant? I didn't. I only said that, in my experience, I have seen many people, mostly gay people, reject my attempts to explain to them that Christians are not allowed to discriminate.

No. I simply said that whenever I have tried in the past. Maybe there will be one or more in the future that do accept my views, and I am sure that there is one. Maybe you can become the first one. Maybe it's somebody else. But I am sure there is at least one. Your hate on me is Sodom and Gomorrah, and there will be somebody (or multiple somebodies) that is Lot and his family.

I am beginning to think you are simply trying to find excuses to take out your prejudice on Christians. Read through and think it through. Maybe you are the prejudiced one. Maybe you discriminate against people. But maybe you aren't. But keep in mind, you could be. Never forget that possibility.

All human beings are capable of prejudice. Just because you are gay doesn't exempt you from that rule. In fact, because you're fighting for your equality at this moment, you are more subscribed to this rule than the average person.
I am going to commit myself to this being the last post I ever reply to you to. Did I ever say that we were exempt from prejudice? I know very well that everyone is prejudice. I know I am prejudice. Did you not read the part where I said I have zero respect for the bible?

The problem I have is that you expect us to drop our prejudice about religion. It's not going to happen for a very, very long time. Centuries of hate and scorn doesn't go away so easily. It doesn't go away with a push of a button. SO STOP ASSUMING IT IS.
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  #3964    
Old June 27th, 2013 (07:55 PM). Edited June 27th, 2013 by droomph.
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Quote originally posted by QuilavaKing:
No way. When something so horribly wrong is happening, the worst possible thing you can do is ignore it. If you ignore it, it will continue to happen. What we should be doing (and have been) is shedding as much light on just how evil it is. Keep it fully out in the open, talk about it as much as possible, and make sure people understand just how wrong it is and why.

Had we just ignored injustices like that we'd still have slavery, and women wouldn't be able to vote, and Gays wouldn't be able to marry. (Well, still working on that last one.)
But if we were to ignore the prejudiced Congressmen, that is what will help us correct this.

And so maybe I put the wrong wording. I should have said "politely prove them wrong" rather than "ignore".

Confrontation is never the first answer, rather it's to have them understand why they are wrong. And I have a simple answer to the second - quote this from the Bible. "Give Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to the Lord what is the Lord's." This shows us our free will on this earth, something that the State is trying to protect. We have the free will to sin against God, so let the State protect that right.

Quote originally posted by First Snow:
I am going to commit myself to this being the last post I ever reply to you to. Did I ever say that we were exempt from prejudice? I know very well that everyone is prejudice. I know I am prejudice. Did you not read the part where I said I have zero respect for the bible?

The problem I have is that you expect us to drop our prejudice about religion. It's not going to happen for a very, very long time. Centuries of hate and scorn doesn't go away so easily. It doesn't go away with a push of a button. SO STOP ASSUMING IT IS.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, and I apologize.

I meant to say, if I didn't make myself clear, that the centuries of hate are still there.

They are most definitely there.

They are closer than ever, and we shouldn't ever ever forget them.

But guess what?

We can put that aside (in contrast to throwing away completely) for a while, and understand each other. Maybe trade some secrets, even! Who knows what we'll accomplish?

But unless we make a truce, no peace or progress can be made in the end.
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  #3965    
Old June 27th, 2013 (08:05 PM).
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I've also heard that prop 8 was dismissed due to lack of foundation. Not sure if that's true, but that's what I've been reading about on the internet.
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Old June 27th, 2013 (08:06 PM).
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This came from the DOMA thread, and I just posted there. I do feel that droomph is being harassed though, but I'm not going through that on this thread.

First Snow, you just effectively justified prejudice by saying "just cuz I'm gay". I thought this thread was about overcoming prejudice, not well we've been oppressed over thousands of years and so we deserve a slap on the wrist. That's just plain ignorance to me.

Prejudice is stupid. It's when you don't like something, so when it shows up a big red flag pops up in your brain and shuts it down. Is that something worth justifying? especially when you can use your brain and read critically and analytically to learn what the person is actually talking about? We want to overcome prejudice because it prevents us from being that wholesome, rational, and reasonable person that we usually are. Prejudice is a person abandoning their reason and defending prejudice is defending abandoning reason. Let's not.

And I think what is going on with Prop 8 is as follows: a couple of gay couples sue against it, and California refuses to defend. The question is whether or not petitioners who support Prop 8 should be allowed to appeal on the behalf of California. The decision was no, they shouldn't be allowed to do that. And so Prop 8 falls because nobody is defending it. That's the legal gist of it, but yeah the concurring opinion said that petitioners don't have in stake in it, or injury blah blah blah.
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  #3967    
Old June 27th, 2013 (08:11 PM).
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Quote originally posted by First Snow:
I've also heard that prop 8 was dismissed due to lack of foundation. Not sure if that's true, but that's what I've been reading about on the internet.
Well, as soon as DOMA got struck down, approximately 100% of its foundation was removed.

And guess what happens when you take away 100% of a foundation?

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  #3968    
Old June 28th, 2013 (04:11 AM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
I'm sorry. But is this a gay people thing, to hate on religious people blindly? Because if that's how it is, I then revoke my support of gay marriage. If you won't treat everyone with equality, then you don't deserve equality.
bye.

--------------------

In other news, Australia has had some step forward in the fight for gay marriage! Our Prime Minister Julia Gillard was just ousted from her post by our former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, who seems to have had a change of heart in his absence and wants to see gay marriage move forward. He's now pushing for a conscience vote (or even a referendum) to make it happen!

Unfortunately the election is in like 2 months and there's no way he's gonna win because this government has screwed up so much over its 6 year run, so he's unlikely to get a chance to make it happen, but it's still encouraging to see.
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  #3969    
Old June 28th, 2013 (09:36 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Shining Raichu:
bye.
But tell me, is this a gay people thing to hate on religion? That's ironic, how you guys would accuse others of doing something but doing the same thing to the people you accuse.

This is just frustrating, the amount of "blah blah blah I can't hear you" I'm getting.
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Old June 28th, 2013 (10:38 AM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
But tell me, is this a gay people thing to hate on religion? That's ironic, how you guys would accuse others of doing something but doing the same thing to the people you accuse.

This is just frustrating, the amount of "blah blah blah I can't hear you" I'm getting.
I'd like to believe that a good portion of this can be attributed to the deep hatred a lot of religious people have for anyone who doesn't abide by their Gods "rules".

One hatred can cause an innocent person so much pain and suffering. As a result a new hatred is born.

Look at it this way. X Attacks Y because Stone Cold said so. Y goes through hardships for something it can't control due to X's actions. Y now hates Stone Cold for influencing X to perform said actions.
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Old June 28th, 2013 (10:47 AM).
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Quote originally posted by Xolace:
I'd like to believe that a good portion of this can be attributed to the deep hatred a lot of religious people have for anyone who doesn't abide by their Gods "rules".

One hatred can cause an innocent person so much pain and suffering. As a result a new hatred is born.
But couldn't I be treated as the beginning of a new trend? A new beginning.

Forgiving is not forgetting. It's, in fact, remembering. It's to remember what was done wrong, and to allow them to try again.

I want to start a new trend, where everyone gets along. A new trend where everyone treats each other with the aforementioned forgiveness.

And where better a place can we start than here?

The American Revolution may have officially started on a battlefield, but to the people, to which it mattered, it started in their communities, in their homes.

So we should start the same way. Who cares that this is just a Pokémon forum? It's just as good a place as whitehouse.gov. Let's try treat each other like we get along, and discuss where we don't get along in a manner in which we try to understand why we don't get along. This has nothing to do with ideologies, or religion, but rather because I want a better world and this is where I want to start.
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  #3972    
Old June 28th, 2013 (12:15 PM).
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Quote originally posted by droomph:
Let's try treat each other like we get along, and discuss where we don't get along in a manner in which we try to understand why we don't get along. This has nothing to do with ideologies, or religion, but rather because I want a better world and this is where I want to start.
We were already getting along in here, until you came in and started asking if it was "a gay people thing to hate on religion".

If you were reacting to the term "Bible-thumper" (which was the only mention of religion before you brought it up), then you should know that it isn't descriptive of all or even many religious people. It only applies to those who try to force their opinions onto others just because a book said so. To be honest, that kind of people shouldn't have any influence on anyone, not because of what they believe, but because of their attitude and ignorance. The problem is that, in many places, they do have influence - they're the reason anti-tolerance laws like DOMA exist in the first place.

As a member of staff, I'd like you to drop it before you take over this thread even further. If you don't want to let go, then please talk to another member of staff before carrying on.
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  #3973    
Old June 28th, 2013 (12:47 PM).
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It makes me kind of disturbed to come back to something like this. :\

On another hand, I think I may be misunderstanding Prop 8 theories.. Did someone say the main reason it was given up on was because of lack of funding?

I've been gone for a while lol
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  #3974    
Old June 28th, 2013 (01:26 PM). Edited June 28th, 2013 by Kanzler.
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Prop 8 was defeated because the State of California refused to defend it when sued, and the court found that petitioners in favour of Prop 8 are not allowed to appeal on California's behalf, and so it will be lifted shortly because there may be another rehearing.

I hate to double post, but I found this on reddit and thought it was worth sharing and bumping. Apparently the following email was sent to American military personnel:

Quote:
Secretary of Defense Statement:
"The Department of Defense welcomes the Supreme Court's decision today on the Defense of Marriage Act. The Department will immediately begin the process of implementing the Supreme Court's decision in consultation with the Department of Justice and other executive branch agencies. The Department of Defense intends to make the same benefits available to all military spouses - regardless of sexual orientation - as soon as possible. That is now the law, and it is the right thing to do.
"Every person who serves our nation in uniform stepped forward with courage and commitment. All that matters is their patriotism, their willingness to serve their country and their qualifications to do so. Today's ruling helps ensure that all men and women who serve this country can be treated fairly and equally, with the full dignity and respect they so richly deserve."
Pretty cool no? Not the most expected eh?
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  #3975    
Old June 28th, 2013 (06:49 PM).
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Brynjolf Brynjolf is offline
It's so overt, it's covert!
 
Join Date: May 2011
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So a TL;DR of the email is basically "Prop 8's not cool. If gay people fight for the USA they should be able to get rights, too"??
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